Left Behind
http://radicalbitch.wordpress.com/2008/07/22/21/ (http://radicalbitch.wordpress.com/2008/07/22/21/)
7/22/2008
For the past 15 or so years trans activism has not been about actual civil rights so much as it has been about the erasure of classic transsexuality often called HBS these days. This has been done by denying the medical model of transsexuality via "education" that transgendered identified individuals, something entirely different than those born with transsexual or intersexual conditions, do not "require" surgery or body modifications while at the same time attempting to coattail the understanding that had been achieved BECAUSE of the nature of transsexuality. Not suffering from the dysphoric imperative, these activists have been busy selling the idea that surgery is optional rather than the well established and highly successful treatment the medical profession recognizes for those born with classic transsexuality.
Yup, me again.
I will add here, I spent a large amount of time and energy in the past 12 years trying to keep this from coming to pass. 12 years ago the "education" of Congress regarding classical transsexuality was already largely done, I had done part of it myself. The crop of trans-activists that came into power at that time would not listen that using that understanding, adding the the poor surgical outcomes of FtM treatment to prevent surgical requirements would and could lead quickly and quietly to coverage for EVERYONE trans. We even had a specific example of a crossdresser identified individual screwing the pooch in Louisville Ky. trans coverage. All that person had to do was stop arguing for specific crossdresser "rights" and all crossdressers would have been covered. As a direct result of failing to drop that line, the legislation passed but with specific crossdressing exclusion. It never should have happened, it didn't need to happen but it did.
It may or may not be too late to fix this.
*Lisbeth shakes head* I would say it was unbelievable if I hadn't already heard it so many times before.
First, I agree with Cathryn's basic point that the arguments and virulence over the "trans" issue is certainly alienating many supportive lesbians and gays. Not that we don't have our own fights within those circles, just that we don't notice them as much in a space like Bilerico or Pam's, because generally speaking, it's when trans topics are posted that some trans people feel an urge to make a public disagreement, tempers flare and then catch fire and the entire discussion devolves into vicious name-calling and then someone makes the point that they are "just trying to shed light and now look at how viciously they've treated me."
Often, by going to their own blogs and those of their friends one can see that there might be some intention to light some fires. That might be seen as wanting to light and sustain disagreement, hatred and virulence as a means of making one's own predictions and beliefs appear to be inevitably correct.
In other words, I come, Lisbeth, with the intention of stirring you up and go about it in ways that might appeal to my own particular variety of personality disorder (we'll say I'm Borderline) to upset you so that you'll lash out at me and then we can allow the entire conversation to turn into a fight between "two ->-bleeped-<-s, just like two men" and then those watching will decide they could easily dismiss us both and do better without us.
For that, I am elated because the end result "proves" that I was right all along. Besides, in that regard I am not a stake-holder in the argument anyway. My interest is more in being right, regardless the cost of that. It's a fairly common behavior employed by all sorts of people in poliitics.
Or, if I don;t wish to get my "hands dirty" then I have another, who agrees with me, do that instead.
Nichole
Hi Nichole,
It is actually a very small core group of individuals who have brought us to this place. They stopped all the dialogue on trans venues that opposed them by ruthlessly driving out every woman of transsexual history who decided to reconnect with the "community" and starts to relate in terms of her lived experiences as woman. I witnessed it time after time. The technique used is called "bear baiting"....one insult after another until she either leaves or reacts. Because they are seen as the "names" within activism, they get a pass on this, on several occasions if one them explodes, rather than remove her, the moderator will temporarily shut down the entire list for several days.
You can actually count these people on both hands. It became very problematic when they infiltrated the LGB blogs as THE representives of the trans experience overall. When women of transsexual history talk about TGs, it is almost always this specific group being referenced but since almost no one from outside their group ever speaks in opposition to what they do or how......well human nature being what it is, an entire group is branded by it. If you read the posts on Bilrico you might have noticed someone nicknamed Polar defending me. I am well aware of who this is. She is a crossdresser identified individual who shared many positive lobbying experiences with me and whom I admire for her integrity.
In the end it is much easier for most people to approve those they feel most like themselves and reject those portrayed as the "other". Ethical and moral standards never seem to have a chance in hell in this regard.
Quote from: nooneinparticular on July 22, 2008, 02:00:33 PM
In the end it is much easier for most people to approve those they feel most like themselves and reject those portrayed as the "other". Ethical and moral standards never seem to have a chance in hell in this regard.
Again we agree. It most certainly is. The problem is endemic, particularly among minorities. Witness historically African-Americans and economic-class, skin-tone, rural-urban, etc. We tend to find distinction in the smallest and most exclusive ways as well: economic-status, whether or not someone has had surgeries, whether or not someone has sex with other women, other women-with-a-transsexual-history, men.
That we must find some way to place difference aside for long enough to recognize a common subordination and 2nd-classism and a common humanity with all other humans; and whether we can stop the "slash-and-burn if they aren't exactly like me" are the questions that truly burn at the center of all the arguments. For now, the answer often appears to be "no." It's much more important that I assert my own worth while denying that to someone 6 cents short of my income cut-off line.
The thing is this, Cathryn, if I want to make a difference, then I need to make that difference by recognizing that I am about 1% of the total population of the world. Period. To include women and men who have had operations, those who haven't and will, and those who haven't and won't.
That someone else isn't like me is an absolute certainty. I am reminded of that everytime I hug my sons or talk with my daughters & grandchildren. It is what it is. The question for us all is what do we do about it.
I am aware that you tried and did do many notable and worthwhile things and continue to do them. Your Abbey is a noted example. That you have given many transsexed women a guide on their spiritual path to Mother is also noted. But, to tell the truth, it all means nothing if you or those who oppose you cannot find it within yourselves to place your egos and your senses that you should lead to the side long enough to actually lead.
Learning to understand and disagree at the exact same time is the hardest lesson. Are you willing to lead in that regard? Or simply demand that all yield to you? When compromise is called for, being able to do that is the mettle of a leader, someone willing to sacrifice her own sense of being right in order to be right about a larger and more common truth.
It's all well and good to be right. My question is always, "what price am I willing for myself and others to pay so that I am proven right?" That, Cathryn Platine, is your question as well. Can we discover that our common humanity is reason enough for us each to practice humility so that others might benefit, so that the possibility exists that we can work together?
Blessed Be,
Nichole
all edits for grammar and punctuation changes only
QuoteThat we must find some way to place difference aside for long enough to recognize a common subordination and 2nd-classism and a common humanity with all other humans; and whether we can stop the "slash-and-burn if they aren't exactly like me" are the questions that truly burn at the center of all the arguments. For now, the answer often appears to be "no." It's much more important that I assert my own worth while denying that to someone 6 cents short of my income cut-off line.
My own self worth is not tied to reducing someone else's, that is a zero sum game and example of the kind of thinking that has brought the world to the brink of destruction. It is not I who defines herself in terms of who I am not, only in terms of who I am.
QuoteThe thing is this, Cathryn, if I want to make a difference, then I need to make that difference by recognizing that I am about 1% of the total population of the world. Period. To include women and men who have had operations, those who haven't and will, and those who haven't and won't.
One essential difference and one I discuss often with my dear friend and Battakes advisor is we see ourselves as representives of 51% of the population......not the 1% I don't "pass", I am. Apparently it is that about me that others find so threatening and make no mistake, apparently I am so threatening that over the years many attempts have been made to utterly destroy my life........remove my ability to find work via anonymous outings, credible threats on my life, harassment that borders on terrorism, even being turned in to Homeland Security as a terrorist. Attempts to block all my access to the internet, disrupt my mail service and even leave me homeless after years of taking in others to prevent that from happening to them. Apparently I am a mirror of the insecurities of others........when all I see myself as is a nice older woman who tries to do what she thinks is right.
QuoteI am aware that you tried and did do many notable and worthwhile things and continue to do them. Your Abbey is a noted example. That you have given many transsexed women a guide on their spiritual path to Mother is also noted. But, to tell the truth, it all means nothing if you or those who oppose you cannot find it within yourselves to place your egos and your senses that you should lead to the side long enough to actually lead.
Learning to understand and disagree at the exact same time is the hardest lesson. Are you willing to lead in that regard? Or simply demand that all yield to you? When compromise is called for, being able to do that is the mettle of a leader, someone willing to sacrifice her own sense of being right in order to be right about a larger and more common truth.
I do what I feel is right........that is my driving principle in life. I teach a religious path open to everyone, it needs be to have any true meaning. It's not a transsex religion, it's a universal method of finding the Divine within for everyone which means it can never be one of "leaders" since it teaches the exact opposite, that we ALL have the Divine within and should look there for our personal connections to the greater whole we call The Great Mother. I do not lead, I teach. Am I hearing here the old dismissal of the teachings because of the requirement that our priestesses have bodies that reflect the Divine Feminine? That's not mine, that's literally 10,000 years of tradition and when I tried to compromise that the results were an immediate disaster we are still recovering from.
QuoteIt's all well and good to be right. My question is always, "what price am I willing for myself and others to pay so that I am proven right?" That, Cathryn Platine, is your question as well. Can we discover that our common humanity is reason enough for us each to practice humility so that others might benefit, so that the possibility exists that we can work together?
Being "right" has almost no importance to me, but the fact of the matter is, time usually proves me so because I look at larger patterns, step outside my own ego and sincerely try to do the one thing almost all religious paths teach, is simplicity in itself and yet apparently almost impossible for most people, see things through the eyes of the other.
My spiritual path is one that teaches the interconnection of all life and matter.......but also contains the darker side teachings modern neo-pagans try to avoid. Life eats life is a universal law of the universe. One of my favorite teachings is the lesson of the cobra. It 'tis foolish to hate the cobra for being true to it's nature, but it is equally foolish, knowing that nature, to allow the cobra to bite you.
Quote from: Nichole on July 22, 2008, 04:51:59 PM
It's all well and good to be right. My question is always, "what price am I willing for myself and others to pay so that I am proven right?" That, Cathryn Platine, is your question as well. Can we discover that our common humanity is reason enough for us each to practice humility so that others might benefit, so that the possibility exists that we can work together?
Blessed Be,
Nichole
Good morning, Cathryn Platine. I see you have given me answers this morning. :) That is good. In fact you have given me several and all I asked for was one!
I've gotten an answer about how your compassion and human-kindness have been used by others to hurt and dismiss you. You've also answered a question about your perception of your sexed/gendered self. And you've answered questions about the percentage of times you are "right" & why you are. Finally, you answered a question about your perception of both modern neo-paganism and
Quotethe darker side teachings modern neo-pagans try to avoid. Life eats life is a universal law of the universe.
And you gave me a puzzle about what you hear or do not hear from me.
QuoteAm I hearing here the old dismissal of the teachings because of the requirement that our priestesses have bodies that reflect the Divine Feminine?
Thank you for all of those. But, as you can see from my bolded quote of myself: none of those things were even asked. So although I find them interesting, particularly what seems to me to be your gnosticism, the eternal fight between Evil & Good. Might I guess, please: You see yourself as on the side of The Good? Although there was a veritable abundance of answers they didn't answer my one question of you.
Let me repeat it. I'm sorry for using another literary trope of building that last essay just to reach the ultimate sentence for the actual meat of the query, it seems to have distracted you. So, here you are. I'd appreciate an answer to this. I'm gonna place it in a paragraph by itself to avoid distracting you this time.
QuoteCan we discover that our common humanity is reason enough for us each to practice humility so that others might benefit, so that the possibility exists that we can work together?
Thanks,
Nichole
QuoteCan we discover that our common humanity is reason enough for us each to practice humility so that others might benefit, so that the possibility exists that we can work together?
I thought I had answered that, several different ways in fact. The essence of my entire belief system the commonality of all life (I am not human-centric in that and feel my cat, for example, is morally superior to many people I know :) )
As for benefit of others........been doing it all my life in some form or another. Working together?........entirely up to the individual and not my call. I make no claim I'm not an opinionated old bitch, I am. But I do have the virtue of testing those opinions constantly, give me new data and I am actually delighted to apply it across the board.
You did ask another question.......whether or not I see myself as Good. I see myself standing in balance between light and dark, between the worlds, I see myself as alien to most of the human race, but not in a fashion that alienates me. I'm not sure I believe in "good" or "evil" and find that hating someone requires a depth of understanding of them most never achieve.
Some have tried to cast me as the Goddess Incarnate........I am but no more than anyone else can be.
Again, not responsive, Cathryn Platine, to the question.
Can we discover that our common humanity is reason enough for us each to practice humility so that others might benefit, so that the possibility exists that we can work together?
Nichole
LOL.....
I work with anyone willing to work with me.......I do not allow cobras to have a second chance to bite.
That is about as responsive as possible to such a question.
I'll add from Mac Davis:
"Oh lord it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way. each day I look in the mirror and keep getting better each day. To know me is to love me, I must be a hellva (wo)man, Oh lord it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can."
Yet again, your perfection is commendable as is your distrust of cobras, although many people work quite easily with cobras. But, in regard to TG people there seems to only be two answers to a rather simple question, neither answer have you yet managed to write.
Can we discover that our common humanity is reason enough for us each to practice humility so that others might benefit, so that the possibility exists that we can work together?
Nichole
Nichole,
The problem with your question is two fold, I do not see humility as a virtue, hence the Mac Davis song section. It usually is a mask for superiority in my experience.
I can and do work with TG individuals all that time, I thought I made that clear from the beginning. My ability to do so has been hampered by a few TG cobras who have succeeded in painting me "Cathy the Crossdresser" and the "Evilest Trans in Amerika" (that one someone else briefly gets but then it normally defaults back to me)
Sincerely, I have no idea what else you are asking here but suspect we do not share a common language with some of these terms.....
If you wish me to make a blanket commitment........after all I've experienced I will not.
As for the lesson of the cobra.......that is something I learned when I lived in India as a teenager from those others paid no heed to.
I want you to say that you are or are not willing to grant Mother's forgiveness to those you hurt and fought with over the years and who hurt and fought with you so that a wide-variety of people are able to be treated like human beings within the laws and society of the United States of America.
To that end are you at all willing to take a first step, and even though it might burn your own heart, can you forgive others so that you and they might find a way to work together.
Yes or No, Cathryn Platine.
I find it hard to believe that you have had this much diffculty actually seeing that. A yes, Cathryn. Or a No.
To quote another songwriter: "What's it gonna be, girl? Yes or no?"
Nichole
Ok, I was afraid it was this.......we indeed do not share a common language here.......
I do not and will not take responsibility for hurt others felt from me for my simple expression of ideas when no such hurt was intended or reasonably should have been taken. That is within them, not me.
I absolutely do not believe in the concept of "forgiveness"........it is a Christian concept once again tied up completely in power dynamics and never about what it claims it is. To claim the right to forgive is to claim superiority....
I will work with those who harmed me in the past, but will never turn my back on them or give them any power over me........ I do not hate, that takes far too much energy and binds you to those you hate to your own harm.
See, I stand in balance between light and dark, it is an entirely different way of seeing the world. It is not a yes or no question.
O, Cathryn, as you have made more than plain in your own writings and blogs you are perfectly capable of talking down to others enough to say "yes" or "no."
That you backed yourself into a corner because I didn't take your usual blandishments of sidetracks and personal innuendo to get off point is not a sign we aren't speaking a common language. Just as this last was yet another attempt to do the same.
Now, Rev. Mother Cathryn Platine.
Yes or No? I see you have the capacity to write the words. I'm asking for a commitment to one or the other. A gnostic understanding surely can encompass that.
Your turn.
Yes/No?
Nichole
P.S 1:26 -- You've been writing a long time. This isn't going to be a yes/no reply is it?
QuoteThis has been done by denying the medical model of transsexuality via "education" that transgendered identified individuals, something entirely different than those born with transsexual or intersexual conditions, do not "require" surgery or body modifications while at the same time attempting to coattail the understanding that had been achieved BECAUSE of the nature of transsexuality. Not suffering from the dysphoric imperative, these activists have been busy selling the idea that surgery is optional rather than the well established and highly successful treatment the medical profession recognizes for those born with classic transsexuality.
I am in agreement with you that those 'educating' people about trans issues (hope you don't mind me using that as a broad term) need to be careful to not to dismiss those who experience severe dysphoria and have a medical need for hormonal and surgical treatments as simply undergoing 'body modifications' on a whim. This is potentially very harmful for those who require medical help from medical insurance or socialised healthcare systems.
However it's a rather broad statement that "transgendered identified individuals [are] something entirely different than those born with transsexual or intersexual conditions". There are many non-binary identified people and people who are binary identified but non-gender role conforming who experience debilitating dysphoria and have a real medical need for hormonal and surgical treatments.
QuoteHad the modern trans-civil rights movement actually been about obtaining civil rights, they never would have taken this position, but you see, it isn't about that, it's about pushing a socialital wide agenda of total deconstruction of all gender in order bolster their own positions outside a gender binary accepted by almost everyone in the world.
I think non-gender-role conforming people whether cisgender identified, binary transsexuals or otherwise transgender have a right to not be discriminated against for their gender expression or gender identity (percieved or actual). This is a very different civil rights battle than the right for binary transsexual people to be legally considered full members of the gender they identify as.
QuoteFailing that their fall back position is dragging everyone gender variant in any fashion into a third category in addition to the binary.
I think you're talking about the tendency to lump all trans people into a 'third gender' category. This is something I don't agree with, people have the right to be binary identified whether cissexual or transsexual.
QuoteTheir feminist allies in this are among the "third wave" of feminism which consists mainly of young women in college experimenting with denial of gender. This is great fun in the safe confinement of an insular world but most of them quickly find out it doesn't work once they are out in the wider world.
I don't see how whether something 'working' in the wider world really has any relevance on its legitimacy. It could be said that being transsexual doesn't 'work' in the wider world if you don't have the privilege of passing and at least some level of stealth (more so historically). Things are not invalid simply because the wider world might not be ready to accept them yet.
QuoteThe latest of these "transwomen" wearing feminist clothing is the current darling of the TG crowd, Julia Serano. Julia makes many excellent points but fails on one major area, she approaches feminism as an outsider, a "transsexual" rather than a woman without reservation. In my own experience, this makes all the difference in the world.
When trans identified people approach women's space as trans, they are confirming the accusations of the radical separatists, they are essentially trying to colonize or invade women's space. This would seem to be a no brainer to me, but is a rather simple concept that immediately raises the back hairs of the transgendered crowd.
At its core, the logic behind this is cissexist. Being trans identified and being a woman are not mutually exclusive. One term refers to a person's medical history (in the case of binary identified transsexuals), the other refers to a person's gender. I think Julia believes that she is somewhat an outsider due to having lived a portion of her life in 'male role'. All women of transsexual history have lived some of their life in 'male role', this is undeniable fact. Does simply refusing to allude to that fact make you more of a woman than those who choose to admit it? I don't see how that can possibly be the case! When trans identified WOMEN approach women's space as trans identified WOMEN (and therefore AS WOMEN), it's cissexist to say that their presence is any less legitimate than ciswomen or trans women who choose to not refer to their history.
QuoteIn 2012 the world itself might not end, but it certainly will for the transgenders.......they will find themselves medically defined as fetishists across the board and thus can kiss goodbye to any further progress in the civil rights arena.
If this happens I think it'll be more down to the insistance by some binary identified 'classic transsexuals' that if you're not a 'classic transsexual' you're a fetishist. (or that if you're non-binary you have no medical needs).
There are plenty of transgender people who're simply gender role non-conforming. There is nothing fetishtic about being a feminine man who wants to express that with his clothing.
There are plenty of transgender (but not binary transsexual) people who identify as neither male nor female. This also not a fetish.
There are plenty of non-binary identified people who have a real need for medical treatment, dismissing their needs would be an act just as deadly as failing to recognise the needs of those with 'classic transsexuality'.
I could do more point by point analysis but I don't think it'd really be beneficial.
Education about 'trans issues' needs to make it clear that dysphoria about ones body (and dysphoria due to ones hormonal balance) and expression of masculinity/femininity(/everything in between) are two separate issues. This way both battles for recognition can be fought without infighting. The last thing either side needs to do is be seen as attacking the other. That makes all of us look invalid.
I recognise there is a lot of past bad history here but the worst thing any of us could do is continue to be divisive. Can we not put the "sins" of the past to rest? We need to work together when we have a common need and avoid invalidating the needs of others the rest of the time.
It is not a yes or no question........we are at an impasse here.
I will not make a commitment to devote any further large amount of my energy towards the goal you wish, I did that for years and was rewarded for same with hatred. Animals do not react this way, only people do. Humans are the only creatures on the planet that reward love with harm.
I will, because of who I am, probably continue to help individuals without regard to their identities.
I will offer my opinions, if you had asked what the alternative to my essay that is the beginning of this thread, I'd be more than happy to express it but have zero faith that would come to pass.
I was quite clear I would not make a commitment.
Finally, I can honestly say that in my entire life you can count on one hand the times deliberately I harmed another that wasn't strictly in self defense.........amd once an attacker drops off the attack, I do not pursue.
added: I take my word very very seriously and thus will not give it lightly, you ask a commitment I will not make because there are too many varibles here. That will have to be good enough.......I shall take my leave from here now.
One can interpret self-defense in any number of ways, Cathryn. Just as one may interpret attacks that way as well. That you are currently unwilling to commit to finding common ground speaks enough. You don't say "no," but I think you are well aware that most people who don't feel a personal loyalty to you will see what you did say as that.
Then you will be able, once again, to say that you have been misused and that your infinite human compassion has once more been spurned.
Cathy, a one-trick pony has only one trick. And unlike Tolstoy's hedge-hog it isn't a very good trick at that.
At some point, regardless of "classic," "punk," "jazz," "be-bop," "r&b," "hip-hop," or "new wave" designations of transsexuality what you, me, your supporters and all of the TG mass you have written dismissively of before as a group, not as individuals, is going to discover is that the great mass of cisgendered people, regardless your arguments DO NOT see you, me, or any transsexual as women and men in the fashion we see that.
They place us, when they know, as a group, irrevocably into the designations that they are most comfortable with: transgender and crazy and in need of psychological-conditioning rather than of surgeries. They will point to genes and say that is the ultimate, research from Holland, Sweden, Germany or the United States notwithstanding.
Do individuals do so? Not so much, but society isn't about individuals until they become an overwhelming majority or they simply band together regardless of their disagreements to forge a path toward recognition as just other human beings. Our internal disagreements and how "real" or "fake" we see ourselves and others similar to us are irrelevant to that.
I hope you see you have not been attacked at all. But, you have declined to embrace with a "yes" a start to working together in an attempt to help others see that our common divergent characteristics with them are so small as to be meaningless. Human genes match one another to over 99%. If the entire population were to be destroyed but for the Xhosa in South Africa, within two generations about 98% of all current human genes would be back in circulation. That's incredible similarity. It's one shared apparently only by leopards among mammalian species.
Odd, that some of our earliest forebearers' skeltons have been found in the boles of petrified trees in South Africa. They were very likely placed there by leopards.
The world is far more diverse and spectacular than a few transsexuals and trangendered people arguing about who is and is not like us. I hope, sister, that there will come a day when you see that and embrace it and can then give me a resounding "yes."
Blessed Be,
Nichole
I was recently on a project where someone was stuck in a certain mode due to things that happened in the past. He was very bitter and angry about what had gone on and refused to let go of it. We even tried to point and say, "Look we are doing something wonderful here and we want you to come along but you must bury this old hurt." He did not do so and probably thought the project would fade once he was out of the picture. Instead we grew stronger and were able to reach out to others who had been turned off by his hatred. The project is doing well and has come along quite a bit since then and will come to fruition in the very near future. Because of it the future generations will have a great resource.
Yet one guy full of hatred almost killed the whole thing simply because he could not leave the past in the past.
Quote from: Andra on July 23, 2008, 12:26:00 PM
I think non-gender-role conforming people whether cisgender identified, binary transsexuals or otherwise transgender have a right to not be discriminated against for their gender expression or gender identity (percieved or actual). This is a very different civil rights battle than the right for binary transsexual people to be legally considered full members of the gender they identify as.
QuoteFailing that their fall back position is dragging everyone gender variant in any fashion into a third category in addition to the binary.
I think you're talking about the tendency to lump all trans people into a 'third gender' category. This is something I don't agree with, people have the right to be binary identified whether cissexual or transsexual.
I recognise there is a lot of past bad history here but the worst thing any of us could do is continue to be divisive. Can we not put the "sins" of the past to rest? We need to work together when we have a common need and avoid invalidating the needs of others the rest of the time.
Thanks Andra!
Yes, even if we don't all see things the same way, we need to work together as allies toward common goals to end ALL discriminations. I don't believe that non binary and binary people need to be against each other. Having protections in laws for gender identity and expression include everyone, cissexual men and women, binary, non binary, etc, not just transgender people. As far as I'm concerned, if one person is oppressed, that's one person too many.
Zythyra
Andra, Nichole
I am addressing both of you in a single answer because in many ways you are both making the same assumptions and taking the same stance.
QuoteI am in agreement with you that those 'educating' people about trans issues (hope you don't mind me using that as a broad term) need to be careful to not to dismiss those who experience severe dysphoria and have a medical need for hormonal and surgical treatments as simply undergoing 'body modifications' on a whim. This is potentially very harmful for those who require medical help from medical insurance or socialized healthcare systems.
However it's a rather broad statement that "trans gendered identified individuals [are] something entirely different than those born with transsexual or intersexual conditions". There are many non-binary identified people and people who are binary identified but non-gender role conforming who experience debilitating dysphoria and have a real medical need for hormonal and surgical treatments.
Nonetheless, my years of experience tell me they are totally different and I will point out, I was surgically assigned male at birth when I was born a tetragametic chimera. Regardless, my identity always was and remains female. Anyone who has a debilitating gender dysphoria that requires surgical correction is by definition a classic transsexual so you are trying to have it both ways here. Whether or not they are non gender role conforming is not relevant.
QuoteI think non-gender-role conforming people whether cisgender identified, binary transsexuals or otherwise transgender have a right to not be discriminated against for their gender expression or gender identity (perceived or actual). This is a very different civil rights battle than the right for binary transsexual people to be legally considered full members of the gender they identify as.
Yes, it is an entirely different battle, one that if it had been fought on the basis of the medical model transsexuals, would have resulted in civil rights a long long time ago for ALL gender variant people. A further word on terminology. The term "cisgender" was coined or at least popularized by the worst internet troll in the history of usenet, Laura Blake. Someone who's open hatred of transsexual people bordered on the totally pathological. The same is true of the term that has been forced on people of transsexual history in the name of "inclusion"....."transgender". Again the word came from the rabidly anti-transsexual Charles "Virginia" Prince. Both these words are like open slaps on the face to myself and many like me........bordering on hate speech because of who coined them and having them applied to us.
As I stated several time, I have zero problem with someone deconstruction their own gender, deconstruct mine and we have a major problem. It is the total lack of respect I and others have experienced for our own identities that lies at the root of resentment and anger from our side. Over and over I have asked for the right of self identity as a basis towards building common bridges only to be told NO, no way! Both of you invoke an alleged male past on my part as a matter of insisting we are the same.....we are not. I never identified as male, as a result never lived a "male life" in any meaningful sense and in fact never have been able to understand a lot of male behaviour any better than any other woman does. Does this make me more "real" or "better" or more legitimate? No, but it definitely makes us different...and it gets old being appealed to on the basis we are the same when is not true. That is disrespectful of my reality. Almost all of us at least had been willing to work in cooperation with you for our common good, all we asked in return was respect of our own identities. We have been told over and over that is too high a price.
QuoteAt its core, the logic behind this is cissexist. Being trans identified and being a woman are not mutually exclusive. One term refers to a person's medical history (in the case of binary identified transsexuals), the other refers to a person's gender. I think Julia believes that she is somewhat an outsider due to having lived a portion of her life in 'male role'. All women of transsexual history have lived some of their life in 'male role', this is undeniable fact. Does simply refusing to allude to that fact make you more of a woman than those who choose to admit it? I don't see how that can possibly be the case! When trans identified WOMEN approach women's space as trans identified WOMEN (and therefore AS WOMEN), it's cissexist to say that their presence is any less legitimate than ciswomen or trans women who choose to not refer to their history.
Ok, all this cisgender this and that drives me nuts.......I guess I'm cisgendered....or not, the term seems deliberately separatist. I have
A gender, never "trans-ed" it, am quite comfortable with it, always had it and had to correct the damage done to my body by an arrogant doctor when I was born to fit it better. End of story. In that regard I am like 99.9% of the people on the planet, other than the body correction part.
Over and over I have personally observed that those who demand entry into women's space do so to make it all about the trans. Those who approach women's space as women are accepted because it is on the basis of commonality. I've even had cheap shots taken at me by transgender identified people for participating in NOW as a woman instead of as a transsexual, excuse me?
When I talk about 2012, this is nothing I did, it's what's coming plain and simple and since I know psychiatrists at the top of the field, can tell you nothing is now going to prevent it. If you are not rigidly classical transsexual, you WILL be medically defined as fetishist by the DSM -V revision.
QuoteThe last thing either side needs to do is be seen as attacking the other. That makes all of us look invalid.
And yet the Autumn Sandeens, Monica Helms and Marti Abernatheys continue to wage war on us. Terms like "mutilated crotches", "penises turned inside out", man-ginas and "faux neo-vaginas" are NEVER heard from the "cisgendered" world, only this crowd. Those who devalue women with nasty terms about their genitalia are gynophobic, they are the ones who repeat over and over "you will never be a real woman because you have an X chromosome." Please explain to me how this is
not a direct assault on our womanhood especially when it is done in wider LGB space? "it's true" is not a defense of this, first, in cases such as my own, it's not completely true. Second if I were to state that gay men are participators in oral and anal intercourse, that would also be "true" but everyone would still see it as a very nasty insult, intention matters.
QuoteI recognize there is a lot of past bad history here but the worst thing any of us could do is continue to be divisive. Can we not put the "sins" of the past to rest? We need to work together when we have a common need and avoid invalidating the needs of others the rest of the time.
I completely recognize the need for civil rights for all, fought for years for it. The TG side, in the form of your loudest voices, still wish to wage war on us. Rise up and denounce them and maybe something can be salvaged. Suppose, starting today, a number of us started a campaign to the media and the gay community that everyone who has a dick, has no intention of getting rid of it and dresses like a woman shall henceforth be known under the new umbrella of "drag queen". If you object to this you are insulting the drag queens of the gay communities, it's hate speech, you are an elitist, claiming superiority and you shall not be allowed to post on any trans or GLB blog or email list. This is
EXACTLY what a small group of "transgenders" did to us, it was deliberate, it was done over our loud objections and it caused us direct harm in the loss of prior hard won acceptance and civil rights. Nichole wants my blanket promise to work with these people (the exact same ones who did this are still your most vocal spokespersons) Why would I do that when nothing has changed other than the tide is starting slowly to turn?
Prove to me you respect my right to my identity, I started a petition to GLAAD to STOP, once and for all, the umbrella use of "transgender" to include us.....sign it and prove to me there has been a change of heart.
Your anger blinds you and you have no idea what 2012 will definitely bring. Me, I am going with the whole end of the Mayan calendar thing and stocking up on rum so I can watch the end of the 5th cycle (and possibly the world, according to some who think they too know the future).
Mnemosyne.....
I get "it"........you don't like me. Point made.
2012 will definitely bring one thing, the DSM-V revision that will classify all non classical transsexual gender variant people as a form of fetishist..........a range from fetishistic crossdressers to AGs. It's a done deal, no need to shoot the messenger.
I get very very tired of the same old "angry" etc. addressed to positions others do not like........
It's not about the anger, it's about what actually is happening.
Now, if you have nothing constructive to add or comment on what I say, please stop the snipes because they give the appearance you are the one with anger issues. Dirty Dozens is the least attractive part of street queen behaviour and it only serves to foster more of an us vs them posture and assault the self worth of the victim......from anger.......or jealousy?
My first "ignore" here, congrats.
Quote from: nooneinparticular on July 24, 2008, 05:02:31 AM
As I stated several time, I have zero problem with someone deconstruction their own gender, deconstruct mine and we have a major problem. It is the total lack of respect I and others have experienced for our own identities that lies at the root of resentment and anger from our side. Over and over I have asked for the right of self identity as a basis towards building common bridges only to be told NO, no f*ing way! Both of you invoke an alleged male past on my part as a matter of insisting we are the same.....we are not. I never identified as male, as a result never lived a "male life" in any meaningful sense and in fact never have been able to understand a lot of male behaviour any better than any other woman does. Does this make me more "real" or "better" or more legitimate? No, but it definitely makes us different...and it gets old being appealed to on the basis we are the same when is not true. That is disrespectful of my reality. Almost all of us at least had been willing to work in cooperation with you for our common good, all we asked in return was respect of our own identities. We have been told over and over that is too high a price.
In every response I've made in this and other threads, I have stated that I respect
everyone's right to self identify. When I ask if we can work together for common goals, I'm not implying that you are the same as me, it is obvious that we live in different worlds, I'm simply suggesting that we could work together as allies. I only ask of you the same thing you ask of us, respect for my identity.
Zythyra
QuoteIn every response I've made in this and other threads, I have stated that I respect everyone's right to self identify. When I ask if we can work together for common goals, I'm not implying that you are the same as me, it is obvious that we live in different worlds, I'm simply suggesting that we could work together as allies. I only ask of you the same thing you ask of us, respect for my identity.
Granted, freely, gladly, without reservation.......and that is always how I felt.
Dearest Cathryn,
I must admit you have a tenacity that is truly quite remarkable. "I am addressing both of you in a single answer because in many ways you are both making the same assumptions and taking the same stance." and "Nichole wants my blanket promise to work with these people (the exact same ones who did this are still your most vocal spokespersons) Why would I do that when nothing has changed other than the tide is starting slowly to turn?"
I still haven't heard an answer to this question nor to why what passes for your hatred for is all too evident. You are simply throwing bombs, as are your tormentors. I'm going to re-phrase my question to you. Just a bit, but the original you seem to ignore and talk around at every pass. Must hate walk with us down to the realm of Hades and beyond? Can Lethe's water never be drunk or will you play Hector to another's Achilles and battle one another even on the banks of Acheron?
Thus: To that end are you at all willing to take a first step, and even though it might burn your own heart, can you forgive others so that you and they might find a way to work together?
You are intelligent, committed, focussed, perhaps even so focussed that one of your "top" psychiatrists might suggest that you have an idee fixe. I understand very well your sense that you are embattled. But a lot of that is your choice, no? And I am sure that part of your reason for continuing to come where you know before you get there that there will be disagreements is a desire to "save" other HBS-women and bring them away from what you perceive as a dangerous and ill-advised course in mixing with the TG-crew. Your sense of greater purpose is admirable even if the effect is to stir a cesspool of ill-will and hatred.
So, yet once more, I'll ask. And next time that Autumn, Marti or Monica post here I'll ask the same question of them. As a priestess you are bound to understand that "an eye for an eye and soon the whole world is blind." To that end are you at all willing to take a first step, and even though it might burn your own heart, can you forgive others so that you and they might find a way to work together?
N~
Quote from: nooneinparticular on July 24, 2008, 05:02:31 AM
Nonetheless, my years of experience tell me they are totally different and I will point out, I was surgically assigned male at birth when I was born a tetragametic chimera. Regardless, my identity always was and remains female. Anyone who has a debilitating gender dysphoria that requires surgical correction is by definition a classic transsexual so you are trying to have it both ways here. Whether or not they are non gender role conforming is not relevant.
There are many people with debilitating gender dysphoria who are non-binary identified and don't want to be 'male bodied' or 'female bodied'. Generally the term 'classical transsexual' is used to describe those who are binary identified and wish to be female bodied or male bodied (which ever one matches their gender identity). If you're including genderqueer and other non-binary people who experience gender dysphoria in your definition of 'classic transsexual' then yes, I guess it sounds like I was "trying to have it both ways". If you could clarify as what counts as 'classic transsexual' in your opinion it'd be helpful
Quote from: nooneinparticular on July 24, 2008, 05:02:31 AM
As I stated several time, I have zero problem with someone deconstruction their own gender, deconstruct mine and we have a major problem. It is the total lack of respect I and others have experienced for our own identities that lies at the root of resentment and anger from our side. Over and over I have asked for the right of self identity as a basis towards building common bridges only to be told NO, no way! Both of you invoke an alleged male past on my part as a matter of insisting we are the same.....we are not. I never identified as male, as a result never lived a "male life" in any meaningful sense and in fact never have been able to understand a lot of male behaviour any better than any other woman does. Does this make me more "real" or "better" or more legitimate? No, but it definitely makes us different...and it gets old being appealed to on the basis we are the same when is not true. That is disrespectful of my reality. Almost all of us at least had been willing to work in cooperation with you for our common good, all we asked in return was respect of our own identities. We have been told over and over that is too high a price.
I did not at any point question or invalidate your identity as a woman. I was simply stating facts about the history of transsexuals, we're generally assigned a gender role at birth and live some of our lives with people treating us as being a gender we are not and don't identify as. Again you seem to be criticising people who dare to allude to that fact. I have no intention of disrepecting your identity or reality. Of course you didn't live a "male life" at any stage, you were never a man. I would never imply such a thing. What I might however imply is that you were assigned a gender role (to some extent or other) and people made assumptions about your gender during your life before transition. I assume you even had a male name forced upon you at some point. Do you wish to contest this?
You have NEVER been male, I absolutely agree with you. I have never been male either.
Quote from: nooneinparticular on July 24, 2008, 05:02:31 AM
Over and over I have personally observed that those who demand entry into women's space do so to make it all about the trans. Those who approach women's space as women are accepted because it is on the basis of commonality. I've even had cheap shots taken at me by transgender identified people for participating in NOW as a woman instead of as a transsexual, excuse me?
You're again conflating two different things. "participating in NOW as a woman instead of as a transsexual" <- that statement implies that transsexual people cannot be women. You and I both know that isn't the case. As I previously said, one term refers to your medical history, the other to your gender. It's perfectly possibly to identify as trans and still identify 100% as female. Lots of people do it.
Quote from: nooneinparticular on July 24, 2008, 05:02:31 AM
When I talk about 2012, this is nothing I did, it's what's coming plain and simple and since I know psychiatrists at the top of the field, can tell you nothing is now going to prevent it. If you are not rigidly classical transsexual, you WILL be medically defined as fetishist by the DSM -V revision.
Given my own experiences as a non-binary identified person and those of other non-binary people I know, I know for a fact that the medical profession is becoming more open-minded not more closed minded. I simply can't see how 4 years down the line the medical profession will define all non 'classical transsexuals' as fetishists in the DSM. That doesn't fit with my experience and the experiences of others at all.
Quote from: nooneinparticular on July 24, 2008, 05:02:31 AM
And yet the Autumn Sandeens, Monica Helms and Marti Abernatheys continue to wage war on us. Terms like "mutilated crotches", "penises turned inside out", man-ginas and "faux neo-vaginas" are NEVER heard from the "cisgendered" world, only this crowd. Those who devalue women with nasty terms about their genitalia are gynophobic, they are the ones who repeat over and over "you will never be a real woman because you have an X chromosome." Please explain to me how this is not a direct assault on our womanhood especially when it is done in wider LGB space? "it's true" is not a defense of this, first, in cases such as my own, it's not completely true. Second if I were to state that gay men are participators in oral and anal intercourse, that would also be "true" but everyone would still see it as a very nasty insult, intention matters.
Sadly you continue to use the sins of the past to justify continued infighting. Be the better person, refuse to invalidate the other side as you yourself have been invalidated.
Quote from: nooneinparticular on July 24, 2008, 05:02:31 AM
Prove to me you respect my right to my identity, I started a petition to GLAAD to STOP, once and for all, the umbrella use of "transgender" to include us.....sign it and prove to me there has been a change of heart.
I will sign no such thing. I absolutely respect that you do not wish to identify as transgender, however I know other 'classic transsexuals' who feel that there is nothing wrong with the term 'transgender' covering them. If I were to sign such a petition I'd be saying it's not ok for other people to use that term. We're never going to get into a situation where we all agree on what terminology fits us. What we need to do is stress the right to self-identification but also not get too upset when other people have differing opinions about terminology. You can't make blanket statements that 'classic transsexuals' shouldn't be refered to as 'transgender' without invalidating the identities of others. Plenty of people identify as both.
Even though I have been moved to IGNORE status (which I shall truly treasure forever), I never said anything other than the poster appears to be very angry (past experiences with the T population can do that, been there before) and hateful. These are not snipes, merely observations. Nor do I dislike the poster, the few on here who know me know that I enjoy both sides to any debate. What the poster and I will never agree with (whether over drinks or the Internet) is allowing what has happened to dictate what will forever happen. People change, it is the nature of the human species. Those who do not disappear/die out.
Oh and predicting 2012 is still absolutely absurd for obvious reasons. Heck one or two of the people who are on the working teams now could drop dead before any damage is done. Or the collective outcry from several sectors (I have been privy to various meetings taking place in other communities that might be impacted) will lead to positive change. No one is in this alone and it is time to stop acting like it.
In the interest of fair-play and truly getting out the way I feel about this I posted this on Pam's House Blend this morning:
QuoteSharing An Umbrella
Is only necessary when a rainstorm is wetting another and they haven't an umbrella to keep them reasonably dry. They may always choose to reject another's offer of shelter. That's a personal choice.
Maura Hennessy and Zoe Brain have pretty well covered the ground I wish to occupy. I find it terribly sad that these hateful battles of one with another personality continually clog what avenues we do have for communicating our ideas to other people.
My feminism is about inclusion: it's about recognizing that humanity is the umbrella we all fit under whether we like the other people under that umbrella or not.
The only way, imo, we are going to attain the enjoyment of our lives as first class citizens is to convince people that we are just other human beings with more than a 99% sameness with themselves. It will be impossible to attain that if we consistently demean and besmirch one another for the sake of personal spleen.
It will be absolutely too easy to dismiss us all LBG & T (of any sort) as a lot of confused and bickering people who will simply bring their inane fights to places where there is enough fighting already about difference. Why can we never seem to frame our arguments over sameness, inclusion rather than exclusion?
I've been asking Cathryn to commit herself unilaterally to agreeing to work with others, like Autumn, in spite of how much that would "burn her heart." I'll ask the same of Autumn : Are you at all willing to take a first step, and even though it might burn your own heart, can you forgive others so that you and they might find a way to work together?
Cathryn refused to do so this morning because of this blog, so she said, although I suspect the reasons go more deeply. It's time to place personal antipathy to the side and find common ground. There truly is a lot of that to explore.
Nichole Weberring
When I first came here you asked I not use our discussions on other blogs.....
I honoured that.....I see it was not two way. I finally answered your question this morning doing so privately for a reason......I feel betrayed you did not respect that either.
I am not engaging Sandeen, posted to my blog to that effect this morning. It is worse than pointless because the entire reason for answering someone's opinions and positions with personal attacks is that you have no argument or position that stands against it and thus everything from that point forward is seen as a ->-bleeped-<- fight..gone are the original points from view.
There is no defense from this, it works almost everytime and so it will never stop being used.
Cathy,
I said I had been talking with you and that you had said to me what you had already said publically for anyone who reads your blog to read. I didn't divulge anything from a private correspondence that you had not already divulged about yourself.
So, if you want to try to "straw dog" me as yet another person who "hates" you, you're gonna have to do much better than this.
The fact remains that you seem to thrive on being in some way "put upon" and "martyred" when, I think you know, that isn't the case.
I refuse to quote anything you sent me privately. I don't mind mentioning what you said publically and privately without any quotations & as a synopsis. That was entirely your doing. You see, I actually try to discover things about the people I have discussions on internet with. It helps me to picture them more clearly and to try my best to respect their opinions.
If you want to fight me, I imagine that you'll be very disappointed. There is no fight. I refuse it.
You and your followers are as dear to Mother as anyone else. No amount of baiting or its lack is going to change that. What Mother decrees I don't try to overturn by dint of being Her daughter.
You are truly a marvelous and wonderful person, who, as I have told you, has ever and will ever abide in Her arms. If you wish to take offense to that I can hardly keep you from it.
Nichole
QuoteAre you at all willing to take a first step, and even though it might burn your own heart, can you forgive others so that you and they might find a way to work together?
You know what Nichole?........I've reconsidered and will answer yes. It would be a pointless exercise however to do it here so how about it be done in the appropriate large LGBT venue since this is not a trans issue but a much much wider one. How about Pam's, that would be the ideal place under the circumstances. Can you make it so?
noooneinparticular: I'd be interested to see a response to my previous post in this thread if you have the time and inclination.
Quotenoooneinparticular: I'd be interested to see a response to my previous post in this thread if you have the time and inclination.
Would there be any point?.......there is clearly going to be no understanding, nothing personal at you at all but I feel I am standing in the middle of the snake pit here. Everyone seems hell bent on making assumption about everyone else...those with the sweetest mouths often have the sharpest fangs.
I'm old, I'm tired and I'm beyond sick and tired of games transpeople play........an analog woman in a digital world. The words I've left behind me speak for themselves....read them, don't read them, the choice is yours but keep in mind that without the key, you cannot read the map.
Quote from: nooneinparticular on July 26, 2008, 11:33:33 AM
QuoteAre you at all willing to take a first step, and even though it might burn your own heart, can you forgive others so that you and they might find a way to work together?
You know what Nichole?........I've reconsidered and will answer yes. It would be a pointless exercise however to do it here so how about it be done in the appropriate large LGBT venue since this is not a trans issue but a much much wider one. How about Pam's, that would be the ideal place under the circumstances. Can you make it so?
I've contacted Pam, this morning. I'm afraid that most of the weekend I've spent strictly enjoying the company of my partner and others & have just seen this request.
What Pam may or may not allow I haven't a clue. The request was made. Nothing further I can do, but wait.
Nichole