I was recently watching the Bris episode of Queer as Folk (U.S. version), which got me to thinking.
I was under the impression that, at one time at any rate, there was a social stigma attached to guys in the U.S. if they were uncircumcised. Is that true, and if so is it still the case? Or, has locker room culture changed as the popularity of the procedure has diminished in recent years?
And for those of you in the rest of the world, is there social stigma attached to being circumcised, or is it not something people even think about?
I've always said that if I had a son, I would leave that decision up to the father, since he would know more about the potential consequences than I would. But since I would now be the father, I figure I ought to try to find out what the whole story would be for him at school, etc. Besides, it could potentially make a difference in decisions I make for future surgery.
I normally kinda pride myself in being reasonable, but this time I made a vulgar exception and replied before even dropping far enough to read the big Q so as to try and save you some unecassary reading: IT ALL SUCKS, SWEETY!!! Just kidding, I'll go back to bein' reasonable and less an ->-bleeped-<- now.
I'm sure it may be an issue in some circles.....
...but it has never been voiced in any locker room I've been in...
..Now breasts....that's a whole different "ball" game... :angel:
Chrissty
I thought yours to be a quite interesting and very considerable sentiment in light that you'd post no resistance on the circumcision matter in granting the boy's father full dominion so to speak on this and like issues. I guess that's cool. I can't relate first-hand for my father was drunk all the time. I'm afraid I also can't relate on the locker room mentallity all that well. Yu see, I had to take three cracks from the paddle swung by a guy that hit 22 home runs his freshman year in college to avoid failing gym. He caught me tryin' to skip out on shower n' dress far too often and cut me a deal only because he wanted to try and inflict great pain on my ass cause he thought I was a panzy. Well, he succeeded. You gotta consider, the locker room isn't exactly a lovely place to be when your the polar-opposite genital-wise to John Holmes.
I run a website with a lot of young male adults (16-24 avg.) and this question has come up a few times about who is and is not and what the women prefer. Granted these are not medical stats just what I have seen on my site.
Based on some old threads...
In the U.S. it seems perceptions are changing, it can be either way right now, with more and more not being cut. While most seem to feel whatever they are is the best way, the majority of them do not intend to cut their sons. The girls however still seem to prefer cut by a fair margin.
In the U.K. it seems a much larger percentage are not cut and feel it is ridiculous to have it done, meanwhile the women seem to have no preference except that cut is somewhat rare. Canada seems to be similar to the U.K. except the women have a slight preference for cut.
I tend to avoid locker room conversation as much as humanly possible, but when subjected to it... the issue has never been discussed once. I'm in the UK, and maybe it's just down to the specific location, but I don't think people are bothered about circumcision at all.
Quote from: Jamie-o on August 02, 2008, 03:44:40 AM
I've always said that if I had a son, I would leave that decision up to the father, since he would know more about the potential consequences than I would. But since I would now be the father, I figure I ought to try to find out what the whole story would be for him at school, etc. Besides, it could potentially make a difference in decisions I make for future surgery.
Most fathers don't even know, they would tend to trust a doctors opinion. My opinion, as a circumcised individual, would be to just leave well enough alone and let the child decide that as an adult. Yes, adults do chose to have this done sometimes. That is the key, an informed choice.
Quote from: Kiera on August 02, 2008, 06:43:32 PM
Quote from: sd on August 02, 2008, 05:51:22 PMThe girls however still seem to prefer cut by a fair margin.
Canada seems to be similar to the U.K. except the women have a slight preference for cut.
if for no other reason it's cleaner, healthier, lol better looking?
Yes, for those reason's. A very select few guys were told that it feels different as well but some preferred one way, others preferred the other way. Some claimed it tasted a bit different, preference on that went both directions as well (the reasons were a bit graphic).
Would you get your daughter circumcised? So why inflict it on your son?
LL&R
Maebh
Quote from: Maebh on August 02, 2008, 08:07:55 PM
Would you get your daughter circumcised? So why inflict it on your son?
For one thing the female 'circumcision' is very different from the male. That said, though, I agree with you.
At some point in my late teens or early twenties I decided pull my foreskin back for a day, just to check how it would feel. I stopped the experiment after an hour or so and was left with a question: if the absence of the foreskin makes such a big difference in feeling, what happens to sensitivity if one has to spend his entire life with that extra protection? In the context of this thread it raises a further one, namely why would one feel they can make that kind of a decision for a baby they are supposed to love and care for?
Nfr
I think in the USA circumcision was/is a Boomer thing. Back in the '50s, '60s, doctors recommended that all boy children be circumcised. They claimed it would be cleaner and hence healthier. Americans are obsessed with hygiene so it meant the knife for everyone. Since there are a lot of us it really became the norm. When I was in school it was rare to see a boy that wasn't cut.
Since then it has become more controversial, partly fueled by the female circumcision protests. I know of mixed Jewish-Christian marrriges that almost ended over the Bris thing! Recently I read that circumcised men do have a much lower rate of penile cancer. Keep in mind though that the incedence of penile cancer is very tiny. If the risk is doubled or tripled it's still very low. I'm sure the uncut have greater sensitivity. They just need to watch out for that smegma stuff!
Quote from: Claire de Lune on August 03, 2008, 04:06:48 PM
I think in the USA circumcision was/is a Boomer thing. Back in the '50s, '60s, doctors recommended that all boy children be circumcised. They claimed it would be cleaner and hence healthier. Americans are obsessed with hygiene so it meant the knife for everyone...
And an other intervention to add to their bill of course.
Quote
I'm sure the uncut have greater sensitivity. They just need to watch out for that smegma stuff!
Do you wash behind your ears? Would you get your teeth pulled out intead of brushing them? ???
As part of a regular washing routine, pulling back the foreskin and cleaning it either in the shower, bath or even simply under running water will keep it hygienic and trouble free. ;)
LLL&R
Maebh
Jamie:
When I was in high school, which was about the last time I used a locker room regularly, NO ONE WOULD DARE LOOK AT ANOTHER MAN'S PENIS!
Of course you could not help but notice a fully nude male whether or not he was circumcised, but you would never mention it.
At least I never did. I got beat up too often being accused of being a ->-bleeped-<-got in the first place, if I asked some guy why he was or was not cut, would have been a death sentence for me.
As a woman I would not think that whether or not some guy had his tool "sharpened" would make that much difference to me. It would depend on how well he used it. ;D ;D ;D
-Sandy
Quote from: Maebh on August 04, 2008, 12:38:42 PM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on August 03, 2008, 04:06:48 PM
I think in the USA circumcision was/is a Boomer thing. Back in the '50s, '60s, doctors recommended that all boy children be circumcised. They claimed it would be cleaner and hence healthier. Americans are obsessed with hygiene so it meant the knife for everyone...
And an other intervention to add to their bill of course.
Quote
I'm sure the uncut have greater sensitivity. They just need to watch out for that smegma stuff!
Do you wash behind your ears? Would you get your teeth pulled out intead of brushing them? ???
As part of a regular washing routine, pulling back the foreskin and cleaning it either in the shower, bath or even simply under running water will keep it hygienic and trouble free. ;)
LLL&R
Maebh
Helpful hints! I'll remember that if my foreskin ever grows back! ::) ;D
Quote from: Claire de Lune on August 04, 2008, 05:47:27 PM
Helpful hints! I'll remember that if my foreskin ever grows back! ::) ;D
They now do foreskin restoration, not that I suspect you would want it. ;D
Quote from: Leslie Ann on August 04, 2008, 08:51:53 PM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on August 04, 2008, 05:47:27 PM
Helpful hints! I'll remember that if my foreskin ever grows back! ::) ;D
They now do foreskin restoration, not that I suspect you would want it. ;D
....Oh dear...I can just see another "how do they do that?" request about to come up.... ;D
Chrissty
Quote from: Chrissty on August 05, 2008, 02:51:39 AM
....Oh dear...I can just see another "how do they do that?" request about to come up.... ;D
Chrissty
It is non surgical. You wear a little "helmet" that allows you to stretch the skin and create a new one, it just takes time. I can't imagine it being a comfortable process but they claim it works and that you do gain some sensitivity.
Why the heck do I even know about all of this? ???
Quote from: Leslie Ann on August 05, 2008, 01:54:01 PM
Quote from: Chrissty on August 05, 2008, 02:51:39 AM
....Oh dear...I can just see another "how do they do that?" request about to come up.... ;D
Chrissty
It is non surgical. You wear a little "helmet" that allows you to stretch the skin and create a new one, it just takes time. I can't imagine it being a comfortable process but they claim it works and that you do gain some sensitivity.
Why the heck do I even know about all of this? ???
So, just how long have you had this foreskin fetish? :P >:D :D
Hey...I was just warning that this was the sort of
explanation that was about to come up!....
Thanks Leslie Ann, we can all sleep soundly now
knowing and dreaming of...Oh heck..No..No,,! Ahh.... :angel:
Chrissty
I am a married woman to a heterosexual man (my child is TG). He was so "ashamed" at not being circumsized that he did it as an adult!! (before I met him, I think he was in his early 20's). He is a baby boomer (55) so, yeah, I guess it is a big deal to some guys. I had 2 sons and had both circumsized...doctors said for health and cleanliness issues and their fathers were....now I wish I hadn't done it to my youngest (19) who is transitioning to a female. Apparently the SRS goes better with more skin to work with....
Wish could grow extra skin for FTMs! I have heard about how there are surgeons who put a small bloon under skin to grow out more skin for surgical purpouses... wish was possible for FTMs.
Quote from: KJS MOM on August 05, 2008, 05:02:13 PM
I am a married woman to a heterosexual man (my child is TG). He was so "ashamed" at not being circumsized that he did it as an adult!! (before I met him, I think he was in his early 20's). He is a baby boomer (55) so, yeah, I guess it is a big deal to some guys. I had 2 sons and had both circumsized...doctors said for health and cleanliness issues and their fathers were....now I wish I hadn't done it to my youngest (19) who is transitioning to a female. Apparently the SRS goes better with more skin to work with....
Hi KJS MOM
I'm sorry you arrived on this topic while we were having a humorous moment....
Please don't blame yourself for the decision; you were clearly pressured by those around you, some of whom should know better and given alternative advice..
Although it will have an effect on SRS for your youngest, it's not the end of the world, and in many cases the depth achieved in SRS can be greater than that of genetic women.
What is done, is done....
Look to the future, your continued love and support is much more important than a little bit of skin....
:icon_hug:
Chrissty
I don't miss my foreskin because I don't really want a penis, either. If I had a male child, though, I don't think I could allow him to be circumcised as an infant without a real medical reason. I would like him to start out as an intact male, and allow him to decide on any alterations to normal, healthy body parts at a later time.
Circumcision should be treated similarly to other surgeries that alter normal, healthy body parts: at the very least, the person having the surgery should be able to express a desire for it, and therefore should not be an infant.
I'm from the US and , although its not something guys discuss, uncircumcised penises are weird. Most girls think the same thing.
This day and age, the circumcised image is pushed through porn movies.. and guys compare it to the porn cock. :D And I think its the same for girls. Before they even see a cock, they usually see it in a porn or something ... and they expect a guys cock to look like that.
I think it's strange to call something "weird" when every normal genetic male is born with one. The opinions of most girls should not determine what happen to babies' genitals. As for porn and comparing, I don't think porn should determine what happens to babies' genitals, either. One problem in the US is poor sex education (I've experienced it firsthand); I don't know in how many schools this extends to not explaining the natural state of the penis, but I hope it is not too many. Anyway, I don't want to get into a heated argument or anything, but maybe we have a cultural problem here. Why should anybody expect that another person's healthy body be surgically altered? I don't want to have a big argument or anything, but isn't that something worth thinking about?
:) I hope nobody takes this too personally.
For a lot of people its a religious deal, and for those who have it as part of the religion, its not likely to change. And for the record most of the girls I've ever heard express an opinion prefer circumcised men. But that's not like a scientific survey or anything.
Quote from: IHPUN on August 12, 2008, 09:28:31 PM
Why should anybody expect that another person's healthy body be surgically altered? I don't want to have a big argument or anything, but isn't that something worth thinking about?
SRS?
Oh slaps. Tough routine and stuck the landing.
Quote from: tekla on August 12, 2008, 09:49:10 PM
Oh slaps. Tough routine and stuck the landing.
*Nod* Thanks, Kat. :)
N~
Quote from: Nichole on August 12, 2008, 09:39:24 PM
Quote from: IHPUN on August 12, 2008, 09:28:31 PM
Why should anybody expect that another person's healthy body be surgically altered? I don't want to have a big argument or anything, but isn't that something worth thinking about?
SRS?
I'm not sure exactly how to respond here. When you say SRS, I think of a procedure generally performed on adults who express a strong desire for the procedure, not on non-consenting infants. A decision to transition and have SRS is made by an individual against strong societal pressure, not for an individual without any input from him, based on societal pressure. Routine infant circumcision is completely different from sex reassignment. I am advocating against
involuntary surgical modification of healthy body parts based on somebody else's idea of what they should look like.
Regarding surgical procedures performed at birth on intersex persons (which might relate to SRS and social expectations), I've heard that a lot of XY intersex people later identify as male, even if they were surgically modified in infancy to look female and raised as girls. Here, socially-motivated involuntary genital modification can cause problems worse than the ones it was supposed to fix by making it more difficult for a person to adopt his desired gender role.
Regarding expectations that an adult has had SRS, I support non-op transsexuals in resisting this pressure. People should do what feels right to them, and they should be given a chance to figure out what this is.
I'm a little tired today, so I hope I didn't misunderstand you.
I answered the question with one. Your question didn't specify children, merely Why should anybody expect that another person's healthy body be surgically altered?
Why the circumcision? Well, were I to be with a man I'd prefer it be cut. For the rest, I'd imagine that a parent's decision would be fine with me. Were I Jewish or Muslim it would be automatic.
No misunderstanding as far as I see. Your opinion is fine. I have a diff'rent one. :)
N~
Yes hygiene, religion, culture, and the fact it is done under hospital care. It saves the mother some work. A careless person could let odor build up. It could increase chance of transmitted disease. It used to be 90% done in the US now it is about 75%.
If you are not a big sports nut your life has limited locker room exposure. I could count on one hand how many times I needed to be naked in front of strangers.
Quote from: lisagurl on August 13, 2008, 09:48:39 AM
If you are not a big sports nut your life has limited locker room exposure. I could count on one hand how many times I needed to be naked in front of strangers.
Not much of a sex life, eh? :D
Q: What is the technical term for an uncircumcised Jew who is more than 8 days old?
A: A girl
Quote from: lisagurl on August 13, 2008, 09:48:39 AM
If you are not a big sports nut your life has limited locker room exposure. I could count on one hand how many times I needed to be naked in front of strangers.
Yeah, the few times I've had to navigate men's locker rooms, I pull it off fine by just seeming really shy and keeping something in front of me at all times. Still makes me nervous, but guys in locker rooms (except at gay gyms) are definitely not gonna want to look at each other.
Dennis
The gay gym in SF is its like kindergarden Show and Tell all over again.
I was circumcised as a child and I am extremely glad I was. I don't think I've ever heard a girl actually say she prefers an uncircumcised penis.
Quote from: Jamie-o on August 02, 2008, 03:44:40 AM
I was recently watching the Bris episode of Queer as Folk (U.S. version), which got me to thinking.
I was under the impression that, at one time at any rate, there was a social stigma attached to guys in the U.S. if they were uncircumcised. Is that true, and if so is it still the case? Or, has locker room culture changed as the popularity of the procedure has diminished in recent years?
And for those of you in the rest of the world, is there social stigma attached to being circumcised, or is it not something people even think about?
I've always said that if I had a son, I would leave that decision up to the father, since he would know more about the potential consequences than I would. But since I would now be the father, I figure I ought to try to find out what the whole story would be for him at school, etc. Besides, it could potentially make a difference in decisions I make for future surgery.
No, there's the false impression that being uncircumcised somehow leads to illness and cancer, which is totally ridiculous. Circumcision is mutilation and other than in Jewish circles and the US, it's not widespread at all. It exposes the soft flesh of the glans to friction which creates callousness and deadens sensation. I wonder why don't we just lift stupid taboos and teach proper hygiene instead of circumcising.
If a son of mine *wanted* it, it's definitely his decision, but it's irresponsible to make it for them at birth.
FallenLeaves: Other than aesthetic concerns, I don't see why a girl would prefer one over the other. That stuff
retracts, you know?
One thing I hate about phallo: no foreskin. It completely gives it away and makes it look totally fake.
Quote from: soldierjane on August 18, 2008, 06:10:31 PM
Circumcision is mutilation and other than in Jewish circles and the US, it's not widespread at all.
Not only in the US. Worldwide, both Jewish and Muslims practice it. Since historically both religions came from arid regions of the Middle East where water was scarce, in such an environement it originally was an hygienic solution.
Quote
That stuff retracts, you know?
In my own experience a lot of women actually find this facinating :D... and some can't even resist playing with it! ;)
LLL&R
Maebh
Quote from: Maebh on August 19, 2008, 03:57:05 PM
Quote from: soldierjane on August 18, 2008, 06:10:31 PM
Circumcision is mutilation and other than in Jewish circles and the US, it's not widespread at all.
Not only in the US. Worldwide, both Jewish and Muslims practice it. Since historically both religions came from arid regions of the Middle East where water was scarce, in such an environement it originally was an hygienic solution.
Actually, if you count that it's not widespread in Western Europe, Central and South America, Canada, Australia and Eastern Asia, that's a big chunk of the world. Even Southern Africa is not too circumcised. And you are right, I forgot the Muslim population... boo jane! :)
Quote from: Maebh on August 19, 2008, 03:57:05 PM
Quote from: soldierjane on August 18, 2008, 06:10:31 PM
Circumcision is mutilation and other than in Jewish circles and the US, it's not widespread at all.
Not only in the US. Worldwide, both Jewish and Muslims practice it. Since historically both religions came from arid regions of the Middle East where water was scarce, in such an environement it originally was an hygienic solution.
Quote
That stuff retracts, you know?
In my own experience a lot of women actually find this facinating :D... and some can't even resist playing with it! ;)
LLL&R
Maebh
It IS fascinating to play with. But then I am biased when it comes to the male sexual organs; I think it's all a rather fascinating deal.
I think maybe the supposed dislike of un-circumsized penises is due to poor sexual education. Maybe some females DON'T know it retracts? Maybe they had a bad experience with a male who had poor hygiene and therefore believe all males will be the same way ??? It would be nice if everyone bathed, but not everyone is a paragon of hygiene, male and female alike.
Granted, the odor and taste is not generally attractive, it's not that difficult to bathe, or ask the person "Hey, do you think you could wash up?". Hey, you could even make a game of washing them up yourself >:D
I can understand how some one may dislike the look of an un-circumsized penis if it possessed a lot of overhanging foreskin. Sometimes A LOT of it does look a tad unsettling, but overall I'd always prefer uncut if I were asked.