Dani has emailed her chosen therapist to setup an initial appointment...and for some reason that made me scared. Not that I want to stop Dani or *anything* like that...it's just somehow more "real" if you will.
I started a topic on this last night but didn't finish it. I couldn't do it without starting to cry. I ended up having a few nightmares about it too. The first nightmare was that Dani went to the therapist and the therapist pronounced Dani sane and ready to transition and gave Dani a letter to start hormones (all one one visit. And yes I do realize it doesn't happen that fast. This is a nightmare.) Dani was all "yay! I get hormones tomorrow! yay!" and I was very much "um...what happened to taking this slowly?"
The second nightmare was that Dani went to the therapist and the therapist told her that I would leave no matter what, even if I said I was going to stay, and that Dani should just dump me and get it over with. And Dani believed the therapist *sniffle*
I know Dani well enough that she's *not* like that, but dreams aren't rational. I did talk with Dani about the dreams and she reassured me that a) therapy isn't going to change much right away, b) that she'll take things slowly, so I have time to get used to things, and c) she does *not* want me to leave :) Also, Dani wants to wait until she's been at her new job for at least a year so she has some history there and also to do some research to see if anyone else has transitioned there (it's a *very* big employer, so the possibility is there.)
I suppose a lot of this is my own fears manifesting. I just feel like the train is starting to move; we're leaving the station, there's no turning back and the destination is unknown. I just hope the train doesn't turn into a bullet where I'm hanging on for dear life...
Thoughts?
WR
I don't really have any thoughts for you, except that it must be really hard for you, seeing your loved one starting to take steps to change. (Her appearance at the very least). It takes a special kind of person to be able and willing to stay alongside for that.
Big :icon_hug: from me, if you want it.
PolarBear
Thanks, PolarBear. Hugs are definitely appreciated :)
WR
Windrider, I often wonder now just what my own partner is thinking and feeling. He just says that I have to be who I am, and as for the relationship, we'll just have to wait and see. I feel as though I have "inflicted" all of this on him, and it doesn't feel good.
Your post gave me a bit of insight into what he might be feeling, even if he is a guy and even if it's all unspoken.
My therapist said something very helpful that I try to remember. He talked about the relationship as a sequence of compromises, shifts, adjustments. Therapy and transition take time--time that you can both use to make adjustments to your relationship. Time that you can use to get used to things, to negotiate, to redefine how you relate to each other. People do this all the time with other life stuff. Most people in long-term relationships are quite experienced at these compromises. This journey is no different. You will likely be relying on many skills and much knowledge that you already have.
It appears that neither one of you wants to lose the other. This seems to me the most important thing you have said so far. My therapist noted that many couples are able to get through this and stay life partners. So stay informed. Keep communicating. If you can, help each other through it. Because if Dani is feeling some of the same things that I'm feeling, she's scared too. But she might have the added burden of feeling that she's causing this whole situation in the first place.
One of the best things that my boy said to me is that I need to find myself and be able to live as who I really am. He's not going to stand in my way, and he'll help me all I can. I hope you're able to convey that to Dani. You need each other more than ever right now.
Arch
P.S. Consider seeing your own therapist if you need to get stuff out without hurting Dani. You both need a safe place to vent and to talk things out.
I cannot begin to understand how you feel Wind, I am on the opposite side. I can see though how much Dani loves you and how much you love her, I can see you two making it through this with a little work. I can understand the worry, I got that from my mom, I worry a lot. So I can understand only seeing bad things happening, but you can work through it, I know you can.
it would be good to be able to go to therapists on your own though, because venting while the other isn't around can help. I know the value of venting.
I wish you the best of luck though, you two are too perfect with each other to split. I know you can both fight through this, just keep reminding Dani not to go to fast for you.
Best of luck with it, Windrider. I second Arch's suggestion about getting your own therapist. It does help to have someone to talk stuff through with that isn't associated with your partner.
You're a brave woman and Dani is lucky to be with you. And Dani must be a wonderful woman for you to want to travel this journey with her.
Dennis
Dear Wind,
You obviously really love your partner, enough that you have even bothered to come here. My wife does not seem to have the emotional ability/strength to attempt to deal with the issue, and at all costs does everything in her power to avoid any related to the issue, and I dont blame her.
I do not want to lose my wife, and she doesnt want to lose me. The one thing that resounds in your post was the second part of your dream where the therapist tells your partner that you will leave no matter what, and sadly the statistics are very heavily against you and it is exactly what my therapist tells me.
It is hurtful to your identity when a woman who is attracted to men espressively, is told she must now become lesbian or risk losing a life she has built and created with established love. I could not do it myself, I would have left If I was in her shoes.
My wife (in moments of extreme anger) conveys to me, that she feels that by me being what I am I have stripped her of her feminine identity. and I dont know how to react to this, but I listen, I hear, and most importantly I understand.
We are your bane, your source of anger, and it is a hard thing to shake or ease especially the closer you two get towards the eventual day of No going back, If you can make it through that day, that week, that year, you are solely a astounding loving person, and your then wife.. is absolutely blessed to have you.
Whatever you do though, do not stop working with your partner, keep a emotionless open line of communication regarding every single therapist appointment, Hair removal, HRT meeting, ect... Do everything you can to keep communication open without anger and fighting or it will possibly drive dani into a "closet" of transition and she will continue to do things without you or your knowledge and that will only lead to more pain and anger.
That is what has happened to me and my relationship and it feels as if it is spiraling downwards, and I am trying my hardest to right it, but have no idea how to. maybe you have some suggestions.
I wish you the best of luck windrider and dani
*huggles everyone to pieces* Thank you all so much for understanding. It's nice to know I'm not being completely irrational. :)
Quote from: Arch on August 24, 2008, 02:20:22 PM
My therapist said something very helpful that I try to remember. He talked about the relationship as a sequence of compromises, shifts, adjustments. Therapy and transition take time--time that you can both use to make adjustments to your relationship. Time that you can use to get used to things, to negotiate, to redefine how you relate to each other. People do this all the time with other life stuff. Most people in long-term relationships are quite experienced at these compromises. This journey is no different. You will likely be relying on many skills and much knowledge that you already have.
It appears that neither one of you wants to lose the other. This seems to me the most important thing you have said so far. My therapist noted that many couples are able to get through this and stay life partners. So stay informed. Keep communicating. If you can, help each other through it. Because if Dani is feeling some of the same things that I'm feeling, she's scared too. But she might have the added burden of feeling that she's causing this whole situation in the first place.
Arch, this is some wonderful advice from your therapist. Dani and I have been trying to take this to heart since she came out again. We have a lot of relationship issues to conquer as well as the transition issues. Part of the relationship issues are a breakdown of communication due to Dani withdrawing and burying herself in work. That's why we're trying very hard to be honest with each other and how we feel. We can't go back to hiding things anymore...otherwise we will fail.
I believe Dani and I can make our relationship whole again and more importantly we *want* to make our relationship whole again. Yes, we'll need to work at it, but I'm not afraid of work and neither is she. I've been seeing more evidence of couples making it through transition and I hold that near my heart...that if others can do it, so can we.
Quote from: Arch on August 24, 2008, 02:20:22 PM
P.S. Consider seeing your own therapist if you need to get stuff out without hurting Dani. You both need a safe place to vent and to talk things out.
At the moment, I'm not feeling this need. Dani's chosen therapist does couple's sessions as well as individual counseling and wonder of wonders accepts Dani's insurance. At some point I know Dani wants to do at least one couples session and I think it's a good idea. I'm not ruling out needing my own sessions at a later point, though.
Quote from: Rachel on August 24, 2008, 02:33:50 PM
I can understand the worry, I got that from my mom, I worry a lot. So I can understand only seeing bad things happening, but you can work through it, I know you can.
*gives Rachel an extra huggle* I am such a worry wort :P Dani is always telling me I worry too much about stuff I can't affect. I inherited that from my mom too. I know the dreams were most likely manifestations of my 'fear of the unknown'. She is being so very patient with me about hearing out my fears and what's bothering me. I need to do some more research of my own right now and perhaps when we schedule a couple's session with Dani's therapist I'll have more insights.
Quote from: Rachel on August 24, 2008, 02:33:50 PM
I wish you the best of luck though, you two are too perfect with each other to split. I know you can both fight through this, just keep reminding Dani not to go to fast for you.
Thank you so so so much. This statement alone means a great deal to me (I kind of want to melt into a puddle of warm fuzzies.)
Quote from: Dennis on August 25, 2008, 12:44:43 AM
You're a brave woman and Dani is lucky to be with you. And Dani must be a wonderful woman for you to want to travel this journey with her.
Dennis
:icon_redface: Aww, thanks Dennis :) Although, some days I don't feel particularly brave. Dani is a very wonderful woman. She's my best friend, lover, partner...it's so hard to describe in words what I feel when I think of her. All I know is that if she left, I'd have a huge hole in my life that I don't know if it would ever heal. I don't know if I can explain it, but staying through Dani's transition is so much more than just the vows that said "for better or for worse". It's about friendship - friends don't leave when the other is having a tough time. That's when people need friends the most. Partners help pull the load during good times, willingly shoulder all of it during bad times, and help their partner regain their footing. Lovers do just because. No strings attached. Love doesn't have strings or counter or debts. It's not the best explanation, but I'm having a hard time finding the right words to explain what I feel.
When Dani decided to go ahead with transition this time, I saw a person I hadn't seen in nearly 10 years. I saw the person I fell in love with again. I don't want that person to leave again.
Thank you all so much! :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug:
You can do it Wind, it will be tough, I'm not going to lie, but I think despite your worries you will pull through it. I may still be a worry wort, but I have slowly learned over the years that if it is out of my control not to keep it in the forefront of my mind. The same goes for you, if you just don't think about it all the time it will make you feel better. Dani loves you, and I have a feeling she won't leave, everything hinges on your shoulders. I just have this hunch (call it womans intuition if you so wish) that Dani feels too much love for you to leave, that It is all on your shoulders. I know that doesn't help you much, but the decision is yours, but you seem to be taking everything very well, so just go with the flow. In the end, as you said, you have seen someone you love for the first time in a long time, that person was always a woman. So maybe you were a lesbian from the get go? -giggles-
In all seriousness, you seem a very strong woman, and I think you and Dani can pull through this, you just have to stay open, and not let the little things hurt your feelings. There will be a lot of little things that will happen, and if you let them get to you it will ruin it. Just go with it, enjoy the ride, share in Dani's excitement when she hits a new milestone, and you will pull through it all. I just know you can do it.
Hiya, WR,
:icon_hug:
So much to worry about when we enter into something we have never before experienced. Although Arch made a really good point that relationships change all the time through our lives. Our lives are constantly changing. It's simply that something like a transition seems so much larger than other changes: like moving across the country to a new job and having no support netwrok in place in the new location.
Actually, when I honestly sit and consider that one, it may just be as big as transition, certainly there are similarities. So that's where you both are.
Just as a caveat I'd wouldn't be at all surprised if at some point Dani is going to want things to progress more swiftly than she does to begin with. The plans are good, but most of the people I've been acquainted with who have transitioned do get "antsy" at some point about the slowness of the movement.
That's only one of many possibilities, but one I think you should be aware of. Not that you should think that within two months she'll be wanting to schedule surgery or anything like that, just that plans require a lot of discipline and sometimes also require changes to fit altered circumstances. You both sound pretty well-together about the idea of transition so perhaps these are already things you both have considered.
Ya, know, as a therapist I would suggest that if you can you get a different therpaist than Dani has. No, not to boost someone's monthly or weekly income!! :laugh: But, because you are going to need someone who can hear you without having to consider hearing Dani at the same moment.
It's kinda like trusting simply the seller's house inspector to say and mention and totally be forthcoming about things that might be wrong with a house I am looking to buy. Probably better I spend the extra money on having an inspector that is answering to me for her or his pay, rather than having one work for both buyer and seller. I hope that makes sense.
Otherwise both of you guys seem like your relationship with one another is a solid and positive aspect of both of your lives and something each of you wants to grow and thrive in the future. IMO, that is the one largest thing about making a transition work: the commitment of both partners in seeing it through.
Best to you both,
Nichole
*hugs Jordan* I'm replying to your post separately because I can relate quite a bit to how your wife is feeling. I can't guarantee it's exactly how your wife is feeling, only talking to her can tell you that. But perhaps I can give you some insights that will help you and your wife begin to talk.
Quote from: Jordan on August 25, 2008, 07:38:25 AM
Dear Wind,
You obviously really love your partner, enough that you have even bothered to come here. My wife does not seem to have the emotional ability/strength to attempt to deal with the issue, and at all costs does everything in her power to avoid any related to the issue, and I dont blame her.
I can understand your wife's reaction perfectly here, because I did much the same 10 years ago when Dani first broached the subject of transition. I was *supremely* resistant to the idea. I couldn't tell you specifically why then...I can now and it's not one reason, it's a tangle of many. Dani didn't blame me either...Dani even gave me the opportunity to leave. I didn't then probably because Dani chose on her own not to transition then. I was happy "it" went away. But it didn't really go away...and I almost lost the person I care about the most.
I can probably say, with a degree of certainty, that your wife is very afraid. And her way of dealing with the fear is to pretend it doesn't exist. Been there, done that. What needs to happen is that she needs to confront the fears. The trick now is getting her to open up to you.
Quote from: Jordan on August 25, 2008, 07:38:25 AM
I do not want to lose my wife, and she doesnt want to lose me. The one thing that resounds in your post was the second part of your dream where the therapist tells your partner that you will leave no matter what, and sadly the statistics are very heavily against you and it is exactly what my therapist tells me.
The odds are still higher for couples breaking up than staying together, however, more couples *are* staying together through through transition. I figure if I'm going to be a statistic, I sure as heck want to be a positive one :P The key to staying together is communication. Dani and I are working very hard on this right now because our communication channels almost completely atrophied during the 8-ish years Dani was in denial. Dani became a workaholic and almost totally withdrew from me. I'd get one word answers to questions most times. We both realized that if we were going to stay together, we *had* to fix our communication issues.
Dani told me after I had talked to her about my dreams, that someone actually told her to dump me because I'd "just leave anyway". *That* made me angry. How dare someone presume to think for me? The person who made that comment to Dani does not even *know* me and yet they can "predict" what I will do? Humph.
Quote from: Jordan on August 25, 2008, 07:38:25 AM
It is hurtful to your identity when a woman who is attracted to men espressively, is told she must now become lesbian or risk losing a life she has built and created with established love. I could not do it myself, I would have left If I was in her shoes.
My wife (in moments of extreme anger) conveys to me, that she feels that by me being what I am I have stripped her of her feminine identity. and I dont know how to react to this, but I listen, I hear, and most importantly I understand.
Ah, now this I also understand. I call this the "better woman" syndrome. I've fought with it, and will probably have to fight it again at later stages of transition. It's not an easy thing to combat. I'd be willing to bet your wife is feeling like you will somehow be "better" than her. You will be prettier, more successful, more feminine, more "something". It's also bull poopie, but the feeling isn't rational. The hard truth is that there is no such thing as a "better" woman. There are just *different* women. But sometimes "different" is also scary. It took me a while to realize that Dani will not be prettier than I am, because I will not become less pretty. She will not be more successful than I am, because "success" means different things to different people. Dani will not be more feminine that I am, because again define what is or is not "feminine". It means that I am myself, and Dani's transition does not make me any less myself. Overcoming the "better woman" syndrome does mean feeling comfortable with yourself, and maybe your wife is feeling a bit insecure about herself. If you have kids (and this is going to be speculation here as Dani and I do not have kids) but your wife may also be feeling that you are trying to take away her role as "mom". A lot of women, especially mothers, feel very strongly about that "mother" role. You may want to reassure your wife that you're not trying to supplant her role as mother, but support it as another female.
She could also be feeling out of control a bit. She may be feeling like she's on that bullet train. She's seeing you transition and feels like she has no choices. Now I'm not saying let your wife convince you to stop here. However, marriage is a partnership and when one partner is doing the driving without input from the other, things can go bad. I liken Dani's transition to a Sunday drive. Dani is still driving, but I get to ask to stop and smell the roses every once and a while. This way, Dani is still controlling her transition, but I get to ask her to pause when I need more time to adjust. Dani's willingness to take things slowly for my sake is also a large part of this. She's willing to give me time to work though my feelings before we go on to the next step. And I in turn, promised that I *would* deal with things instead of wishing they'd go away.
Being seen as lesbian is a large issue for some women. Sex and intimacy are also large issues for women. I'm not an exception here. I had to deal with how I felt about being perceived as lesbian. But you know something, just because someone calls me a name, doesn't make me into that name. What hurts me more is that after Dani goes full time, I will no longer be able to hold her hand in public and she will not be able to put her arm around me because "society" says "lesbians are evil!!!" We aren't evil. We just love each other very much, and that makes us no different from any other man or woman. As for sex, well, that can be tough. If your wife identifies as purely heterosexual, then she probably won't be open to sex with another woman. Unfortunately, that I have no advice for. As I worked through my feelings, I have accepted that I am bisexual which has made sex pretty much a non-issue for me. I have heard of couples that have stayed together with more of a sister or best girlfriend type of relationship. Whether that will work for you or not, I can't say. I will say that now that Dani has accepted herself, she is more open to things like cuddling and snuggling than she was when she was male. Perhaps letting your wife see your 'softer' side will help?
Quote from: Jordan on August 25, 2008, 07:38:25 AM
We are your bane, your source of anger, and it is a hard thing to shake or ease especially the closer you two get towards the eventual day of No going back, If you can make it through that day, that week, that year, you are solely a astounding loving person, and your then wife.. is absolutely blessed to have you.
Well, I would not quite say you're a "bane" and I am certainly no longer angry at Dani. I will admit to feeling a bit of anger when Dani came out to me again. But, really, how can you be angry with a person about something that they can't control? It's not like Dani up and decided one day that she was going to be female. It's part of who she *is*. This is the second time Dani has come out to me...make that third. I have no idea what was different about this time as opposed to the others, but I approached the whole issue differently. I did not run away from it. I did not pretend it would magically go away. Yes, transition is not a comfortable subject, but I thought about it anyway. I cried a lot. It's part of the process. I still cry about things. Crying makes room for me to think about what is bothering me by washing away the pain and fear. It's only when I deal with what is bothering me do I feel free and at peace.
Anger has its place too, but anger is dangerous. Anger blinds you. It can prevent you from moving on because you're so caught up in feeling angry you never deal with what is making you angry. Anger can also make you more determined to succeed.
Quote from: Jordan on August 25, 2008, 07:38:25 AM
Whatever you do though, do not stop working with your partner, keep a emotionless open line of communication regarding every single therapist appointment, Hair removal, HRT meeting, ect... Do everything you can to keep communication open without anger and fighting or it will possibly drive dani into a "closet" of transition and she will continue to do things without you or your knowledge and that will only lead to more pain and anger.
That is what has happened to me and my relationship and it feels as if it is spiraling downwards, and I am trying my hardest to right it, but have no idea how to. maybe you have some suggestions.
Forgive me if I say that I think you need to take some of your own advice :) You noted that you have continued down the path of transition without your wife. Remember that bullet train? Yeah, she's riding your train even though you may not have realized it and I am willing to bet she's feeling very out of control. I'm betting she's feeling very left behind right now and the only way for her to keep some semblance of "normalcy" is to pretend it will go away. My suggestion is to start with how *your wife* feels. Try to do this at a point when you've got lots of time to sit and talk. Have lots of tissues handy and be ready to just listen. Try starting with something like this - "Honey, I realize my transition hasn't been easy for you. I've tried to keep you informed and aware of what I've been doing, but I've realized that maybe I haven't been doing the best job of listening to you. I'd like to change that. Will you talk to me? I promise to listen and I promise not to interrupt and I promise not to get angry with you. I love you very much and don't want to lose you. Will you talk to me?" Dani made sure that I knew that she felt that my feelings were valid, even the irrational ones. And she directly asked me how *she* could help *me*. It could also be your wife is afraid to talk to anyone. It sounds like she really needs to though. If you can't get your wife to talk to you, perhaps see if she is open to seeing a therapist (either by herself or with you.) Be sure to let your wife know that she is not "crazy" for needing a therapist, but that you want to give her a place that she feels safe to talk. You may also want to point your wife here. I've found Susan's to be a wonderfully accepting place. If she feels forums are too public (or if she doesn't want you to read her posts at first), see if she wants to join the #SOTalk room. It's pretty low traffic and I'm usually there most of the day since I'm still job hunting. I'm also open to private chats if she wants to talk with someone who is and will be going through what she is. There are also support groups such as PFLAG, but personally I didn't feel comfortable sitting in a room with strangers staring at me talking about myself. Still mention it to your wife, she may feel differently. Knowing that she is not alone can be a very big help. Another thing I found that helped me was to write (or in my case type) up my feelings. I did them in a 'blog' style but have not actually posed them anywhere. It felt good to put down how I'm feeling and more importantly *why*. Figuring out *why* I felt the way I did, helped me understand the fear and deal with it.
I know a lot of people during transition focus on themselves because they need to. But sometimes they get a little too focused on how they feel, that they ignore their partner. That makes the partner feel isolated and alone and scared. For a while after Dani accepted transition, we spent a lot of time talking about her. I rather directly came out and said "is this all we're going to talk about now?" It was kind of sensory overload. I need some time to process the influx of new data before getting the next batch. Dani didn't even realize what she was doing. But she was willing to slow things down and wait for me to catch up so that *we* could go on together.
In another post of mine, a comment was made that it is not just your transition. Your spouse is also transitioning and you need to be aware of that. I firmly believe this, because I'm living it. It is an adjustment for me as well and it takes me longer because I cannot understand the need that Dani feels. But I accept it is there, and that for Dani to be happy and to remain the person I love, she must transition. And I must walk that path with her.
In the end it may come down to that you both go your separate ways. That possibility still exists for Dani and myself, although I believe it is an extremely tiny possibility. I acknowledge it exists though, because I feel that it is foolish not to. Dani and I are working very hard to make sure that this possibility does *not* happen. We do not *want* it to happen. However, should it happen, I know that Dani and I will have tried everything we possibly could have to make our relationship work first.
Quote from: Jordan on August 25, 2008, 07:38:25 AM
I wish you the best of luck windrider and dani
Thank you :) I also wish you and your wife the best.
Oh, and sorry for the long post :)
WR
Quote from: Jordan on August 25, 2008, 07:38:25 AM
It is hurtful to your identity when a woman who is attracted to men espressively, is told she must now become lesbian or risk losing a life she has built and created with established love.
I'm finding this statement a bit problematic from my angle. I'm facing a similar situation with my partner. I am gay. He is straight. But if I transition and he stays in the relationship, does he become gay?
We tend to use such labels very freely. Hell, I do it. I call myself a gay boy even though I'm still in therapy and am still trying to define myself enough to decide about transition. I think that where transgender people are concerned (I have no opinion about non-trans relationships on this matter), it would be helpful to move beyond the labels--at least use them in positive ways, freer ways, rather than using them to confine and perhaps pigeonhole people.
If/when I transition, my partner will have to decide how he relates to me, if he continues to want to stay with me. I have no doubt that he would never see himself as gay. I think that for him and perhaps for both of us, our relationship will have to transcend such labels and categories.
So. He will not see himself as gay. He will still be completely attracted to women. Other people might see him as gay; that's something else entirely. If he still loves me after transition, he will be in love with the person whom he met and fell in love with nearly two decades ago. When he met me, I was female-bodied, pretty butch, and completely drawn to all things gay. After I transition, I will still be partly female-bodied. I will still be pretty masculine--that won't decrease--but I will still have a lot of femmy attributes because I do not plan to deny my upbringing and history and do not intend to change who I fundamentally am. I was brought up a girl (lived as a tomboy), I grew up in a female body, and I've spent all my life saturated in estrogen. All of that will still be my history even after transition.
My seeing myself as gay is even somewhat problematic. I like men, period. I am attracted to both gay men and straight men and (if I weren't in a committed relationship) would be happy to have sex with either. If my boy and I stay together, will I be a gay guy in a relationship with a straight guy? That is probably the easiest way to view the situation, but (as both my partner and my therapist have astutely pointed out), the labels start to break down because some variables in the relationship are more fluid than that.
I think it's very curious that I don't accept the gender binary, but I tend to use the terms "gay" and "straight," which are manifestly predicated on binary thinking. So I call myself gay, but perhaps it would be more accurate to say that I am attracted to men. I wish we had a term for that, regardless of who is feeling the attraction.
Well, maybe there's more of a middle ground that I sort of forgot about. I'm just now beginning to get a handle on all of this; I've been rather militantly defining myself as gay, partly in defiance--that was my armor against hurt, my way of taking back the identity that I had been suppressing for so long. Now I am beginning to appreciate the difficulties, the inaccuracies, the shortcomings of the term "gay" for a person like me. I find myself rediscovering a term that I once used to describe myself: queer. It seems a bit more inclusive and adaptable.
Yeah. I like that.
Quote from: Rachel on August 25, 2008, 01:52:52 PM
In the end, as you said, you have seen someone you love for the first time in a long time, that person was always a woman. So maybe you were a lesbian from the get go? -giggles-
You know, I've been thinking on and off about this very idea. Not that it's bothering me, but more because there's a little part of me that wonders if it could be true. It's more idle curiosity that's leading me down this path, rather than a driving need to know.
I did find it humorous that you're thinking what I'm thinking :P
*hugs*
WR
Quote from: Windrider on August 25, 2008, 08:13:06 PM
Quote from: Rachel on August 25, 2008, 01:52:52 PM
In the end, as you said, you have seen someone you love for the first time in a long time, that person was always a woman. So maybe you were a lesbian from the get go? -giggles-
You know, I've been thinking on and off about this very idea. Not that it's bothering me, but more because there's a little part of me that wonders if it could be true. It's more idle curiosity that's leading me down this path, rather than a driving need to know.
I did find it humorous that you're thinking what I'm thinking :P
*hugs*
WR
great mind think alike, and I have always been an abstract thinker.
-hugs the awesome lesbian named Wind-
Wind,
You are truly a amazing woman... Thank you for your words, they have meant more to me then you will ever know.
Bless you both.
Quote from: Nichole on August 25, 2008, 02:41:19 PM
Hiya, WR,
:icon_hug:
So much to worry about when we enter into something we have never before experienced. Although Arch made a really good point that relationships change all the time through our lives. Our lives are constantly changing. It's simply that something like a transition seems so much larger than other changes: like moving across the country to a new job and having no support netwrok in place in the new location.
Actually, when I honestly sit and consider that one, it may just be as big as transition, certainly there are similarities. So that's where you both are.
Heh, you mean like when Dani came out to me in the middle of a 3 month LDR because we were moving to a new state :) I'm really not sure how I remained sane dealing with transition issues, work, packing a house, making all the travel arrangements, etc. all at once.
Quote from: Nichole on August 25, 2008, 02:41:19 PM
Just as a caveat I'd wouldn't be at all surprised if at some point Dani is going to want things to progress more swiftly than she does to begin with. The plans are good, but most of the people I've been acquainted with who have transitioned do get "antsy" at some point about the slowness of the movement.
That's only one of many possibilities, but one I think you should be aware of. Not that you should think that within two months she'll be wanting to schedule surgery or anything like that, just that plans require a lot of discipline and sometimes also require changes to fit altered circumstances. You both sound pretty well-together about the idea of transition so perhaps these are already things you both have considered.
I've been thinking on and off about this and finally put my finger on what has bothered me about this issue for a bit. I think my dreams touched on it indirectly. She is *very* antsy and that is the problem. I do not think she's really *thinking* about all that needs to happen. I understand that she's feeling free now and wants to get going. But I'm looking from the view of 'yes, but you need an itinerary here.' Perhaps it's because I can be objective here that I'm thinking of these things.
We talked a bit last night and I was trying to express my concerns but didn't have the right words yet, so I don't think Dani quite got what I was trying to say. She wants to start hormones as soon as she can. I can understand that. She wants the changes they will bring. However, I see starting hormones as starting an alarm clock - one that you don't know when it will ring. She sees the clock ticking too...but not the way I do. (And perhaps not the way you may think.) Dani sees the clock ticking and sees "yay! I get boobs! yay! I won't have to shave as much! yay! I'll look more feminine!" *I* see the clock ticking and see "Do you have a plan for coming out at work? How are you going to come out to your parents? What about my family? We can't ignore them even if they're 500 miles away. What happens if your 'timeline' needs to change because you developed faster than you thought? How about your voice? You haven't even attempted to practice a more feminine one. That takes time." And other thoughts along these lines.
Maybe I'm wrong here. But I don't see hormones as step #2. I see them around step #4. I see therapy as step #1, which Dani is pursuing. However, I see step #2 as learning how to dress and act female. Maybe not totally, but at least until she has a good foundation. Because, what happens when the hormones change your timeline? What happens if you can't hide the boobs anymore but have never dressed? Perhaps it's because I was born female that I don't see hormones as the "magic pill". While hormones will do some things, most of the work needs to be done by the *person*. And I'm worried that Dani has 'forgotten' all of the prep work that needs to be done before the magic pills in her drive to get the magic pills.
Perhaps I also need to say that while Dani was in denial for 8 years, it's only been a month and a half since she came out and decided to go ahead with transition. I think she's trying to run way to fast out of the gate.
One other hurdle that I see right now is that we are still living with family...family that doesn't know about Dani yet. We're hampered at getting our own place because I do not have a job yet. And I think Dani isn't seeing that aspect either. Hormones cost money and she can't bank on her insurance paying for them (they are covering the therapist though.) Clothing costs money and where do we get it from and still pay bills? She can't dress where we are now, so how do you buy and practice wearing clothing or makeup?
My problem here is that I think Dani will see all of my (I think valid) concerns as trying to derail her transition. I'm not. I don't want to. But how do I reign in the teenager and get her to *think*? Because the world won't see a teenager...they'll see an adult and expect her to *act* like one.
*sigh* Why do I feel like a mean mom?
Quote from: Nichole on August 25, 2008, 02:41:19 PM
Ya, know, as a therapist I would suggest that if you can you get a different therpaist than Dani has. No, not to boost someone's monthly or weekly income!! :laugh: But, because you are going to need someone who can hear you without having to consider hearing Dani at the same moment.
I'm not ruling out my own therapist here, just stating that I don't feel I need one at the moment. I'm definitely keeping my options open.
Quote from: Nichole on August 25, 2008, 02:41:19 PM
Otherwise both of you guys seem like your relationship with one another is a solid and positive aspect of both of your lives and something each of you wants to grow and thrive in the future. IMO, that is the one largest thing about making a transition work: the commitment of both partners in seeing it through.
Best to you both,
Nichole
Thank you :) We are trying very hard to make things work and I believe we can :)
WR
Quote*sigh* Why do I feel like a mean mom?
Umm, because like many of us you don't want to have to be the bearer of what is likely to be seen as "bad tidings?"
For my money you have a really good idea of some of the work that needs to be done as foundation for a successful, i.e. one that has her seen and responded to as the woman she is, transition.
Hormones aren't the be all and end all, nor are they the beginning. You are right, they are somewhere in the middle. The things you worry about are things she should take a look at and make attempts to do.
You are also right about the hormonal effect. I had a plan that had to readjusted when due to faster than expected hormonal changes. I mean here I was from all the reading I had done and the chatting with others thinking "one year or even two, maybe I'll get no changes at all." Less than six months, a feminized face, breasts, weight gain on hips and buttocks. The physical happened a lot faster than I had been under the impression it would happen.
So I'd say walk and talk, how one has to see the world and all those little pitfalls to giving up the privilege one may never have known she had, but then that she discovers as she's looked at way differently than before. All those little things like make-up and and care for oneself that are absolutely different and require some skillto manage.
There's so much more to "being a woman" than a lot of TSes are willing or able to understand. (O, make sure she learns to sit reasonably well in a skirt. That's a pet peeve of mine after attendance at a few support group meetings where people wear nine inch skirts and sit with their legs wide-open!) Anyhow, you know the routine and she doesn't. And there's no predictability about how fast a learning curve will have to be after the start of HRT.
And yes, they do cost, those hormones, especially if you are paying out-of-pocket. My insurance, Blue Cross/Shield of NJ at the time covered them and so did Aetna afterwards. Which was all oddly fascinating in its own right. The other females at the place I was working weren't covered for estrogen or progesterone: the Diocese had a rider preventing them from accessing them through insurance due to the abortion/birth control stance it has. Ironic. no, it didn't matter to them if I got them through the insurance.
Anyhoo, there's a lot to "being a woman" that doesn't come through hormones and surgeries and Dani, imo, needs to get her mind around that as well. So, maybe what's needed here is "a mean mom." :icon_hug: It ain't easy, no? Hang in there and stick to your good sense with her. You sound an excellent and reasonable guide and she will benefit from whatever tutelege you can provide her.
Nichole
You may feel like a "mean" Mom, but in my opinion you are more like a Extremely loving one.
I hear your living, finacial, ect situation and it sounds really rough for both of you..
I know I am regretting the fact that I silver tounged my way into hormones after two months at the therapist, becuase I cant even go swimming and its summer.
All I could think about was wanting to arrest male development as fast as possible, and it is happening.
But I cringe every time one of my male friends jokingly slaps my chest, because they dont know, and I am no where ready to let the world know.
I am just so sick of acting male, that I rushed into everything, with little to hold me back.
I feel because my wife has no way to voice her opinions to me without extreme anger, and hate, that we never get anything accomplished, so in a lot of ways I have taken it all on myself to transition, but as long as I dont dress or act female around her it goes largely unmentioned anything I do.
But I know she feels like she is dying inside, and I am just clueless how to approach her and get her to want to work with me on this, when I know she acts like she is happier letting it go unspoken about.
I dont know how old you and dani are, but as far as hormones if you older than 25 theres no real need to "rush" into that, they should essentially accomplish the same effect eventually.
Again best of luck to you both.
what exactly happens if your under 25? Does it go faster?
And you may seem like a mean mom, but just let Dani know you love her, and that if she goes slow it will make it easier on you. She will understand, she seems to be pretty level headed.
WR,
I think that you are the one that is approaching the whole transition thing in the correct way. It isn't something you just jump into, you must planned. Have a talk with Dani like an older sister teaching her baby sister how to be a woman. You can be the most important teacher she has.
You're not a mean mom, and you have it right, she is acting like a preteen girl who just discovered boys. She need to slow down and think. It took me 25 years from the first time I tried to transition until now. Now I have a plan. Yes I am not very patience, but I still have a plan.
Janet
Thanks everyone for your advice :)
Dani and I did talk some last night. I'm still apparently not communicating my points well enough because I got a whine of "well, how many years do you want?" *grr* I did manage to remain calm although part of me wanted to smack her silly for that remark. "behave like an adult darnit!" :/ *sigh*
She still has this notion that the magic pills are going to "fix" things for her. Somehow magically make her able to walk and talk and act female and I'm having a hard time getting through to her that she needs to start practicing the walking and talking and acting at least a little *before* starting the magic pills. Her comment was "well, you can only do so much in the house." And like that's a reason to skip it? I do get her point that she's going to need some help from the hormones to look more feminine. She's currently built very "stocky". I still don't see that as a reason to skip starting to practice.
I asked her if she's thought about how she's going to come out at work. The answer I got is that she's going to take a week or two vacation and come back as female. No mention of approaching her boss, HR, or anything like that. And *those* are the things I'm asking her if she's thought about.
She's looking at the end results. I'm looking at the "how do you get there" part. The problem is that I'm getting brushed off when I ask her about the "how do you get there" steps. The magic pill isn't going to fix these and that's the answer I keep getting "I need hormones to do X".
She also seems to feel that she has "all this time" to think of these things. I'm trying to get her to start thinking *now* at least about some stuff. I'm not asking her to have full blown plans, but ideas of how she might like to approach things so there's no "OMG! What do I do now!" panic if *her* "schedule" suddenly has to change.
I am *not* going to let her fail on this.
WR - The Mean Mom
Quote from: Windrider on August 27, 2008, 01:22:48 PM
Thanks everyone for your advice :)
Dani and I did talk some last night. I'm still apparently not communicating my points well enough because I got a whine of "well, how many years do you want?" *grr* I did manage to remain calm although part of me wanted to smack her silly for that remark. "behave like an adult darnit!" :/ *sigh*
She still has this notion that the magic pills are going to "fix" things for her. Somehow magically make her able to walk and talk and act female and I'm having a hard time getting through to her that she needs to start practicing the walking and talking and acting at least a little *before* starting the magic pills. Her comment was "well, you can only do so much in the house." And like that's a reason to skip it? I do get her point that she's going to need some help from the hormones to look more feminine. She's currently built very "stocky". I still don't see that as a reason to skip starting to practice.
I asked her if she's thought about how she's going to come out at work. The answer I got is that she's going to take a week or two vacation and come back as female. No mention of approaching her boss, HR, or anything like that. And *those* are the things I'm asking her if she's thought about.
She's looking at the end results. I'm looking at the "how do you get there" part. The problem is that I'm getting brushed off when I ask her about the "how do you get there" steps. The magic pill isn't going to fix these and that's the answer I keep getting "I need hormones to do X".
She also seems to feel that she has "all this time" to think of these things. I'm trying to get her to start thinking *now* at least about some stuff. I'm not asking her to have full blown plans, but ideas of how she might like to approach things so there's no "OMG! What do I do now!" panic if *her* "schedule" suddenly has to change.
I am *not* going to let her fail on this.
WR - The Mean Mom
Lol, stop calling yourself the mean mom, your not mean, a mean mom wouldn't let her do this. Your the loving wife that wants her to do this the right way the first time, and seeing she is acting like a teenager and not accepting the things she needs to accept. Just keep talking to her, thats all you can do, just let her know that you want her to think about it NOW and not later. Don't talk about it too much mind you, could cause some marital unrest, but still bring it up here and there, and ask her to set time frames, and not just "run by the seat of her pants."
Quote from: Windrider on August 27, 2008, 01:22:48 PM
She's looking at the end results. I'm looking at the "how do you get there" part. The problem is that I'm getting brushed off when I ask her about the "how do you get there" steps. The magic pill isn't going to fix these and that's the answer I keep getting "I need hormones to do X".
Just a thought on this...
Maybe her attitude about the hormones 'fixing' things is more psychological than physical. Maybe that's the trigger in her mind that "Okay, this is really happening. Now I have to go full throttle and do everything I can." A sign, if you like, of something concrete happening in her transition to physically start to change her anatomy. And that once this starts, it'll be a chain reaction.
I can't say for sure because I don't have the personal experience, but I have thought like that a few times. Maybe she sees the hormones as a major catalyst of her transition, and what she's really saying with this is that she needs to believe (and see) that something is happening physically before she can have the confidence and courage to work on her voice, posture and movement. That seems to be the reason she says that there's only so much one can do in the house.
It could also be a deeper need to feel that it won't be for nothing. That when she's taking the hormones and starting to change physically... that will give her more security than practicing things beforehand and wondering if something could happen to delay her transition and her hopes will have been dashed. The hormones could be like the land to someone lost at sea... you can swim all you like in an endless ocean, but when you have somewhere in your sights to swim
to... the strokes are far more purposeful.
I wish you both all the best with this. *big hug*
Quote from: Leiandra on August 27, 2008, 03:11:21 PM
Quote from: Windrider on August 27, 2008, 01:22:48 PM
She's looking at the end results. I'm looking at the "how do you get there" part. The problem is that I'm getting brushed off when I ask her about the "how do you get there" steps. The magic pill isn't going to fix these and that's the answer I keep getting "I need hormones to do X".
Just a thought on this...
Maybe her attitude about the hormones 'fixing' things is more psychological than physical. Maybe that's the trigger in her mind that "Okay, this is really happening. Now I have to go full throttle and do everything I can." A sign, if you like, of something concrete happening in her transition to physically start to change her anatomy. And that once this starts, it'll be a chain reaction.
I can't say for sure because I don't have the personal experience, but I have thought like that a few times. Maybe she sees the hormones as a major catalyst of her transition, and what she's really saying with this is that she needs to believe (and see) that something is happening physically before she can have the confidence and courage to work on her voice, posture and movement. That seems to be the reason she says that there's only so much one can do in the house.
It could also be a deeper need to feel that it won't be for nothing. That when she's taking the hormones and starting to change physically... that will give her more security than practicing things beforehand and wondering if something could happen to delay her transition and her hopes will have been dashed. The hormones could be like the land to someone lost at sea... you can swim all you like in an endless ocean, but when you have somewhere in your sights to swim to... the strokes are far more purposeful.
I wish you both all the best with this. *big hug*
This could very well be it, it could be her security blanket so to speak, the final thing that proves to her she isnt crazy. I know I cannot wait for my own HRT, like some symbol of my forward movement, but then I'm not illusioned that it'll fix my problems. I know it will make passing a bit easier, but the rest is on me, and only I can do it. This is why I've been singing female songs and working on my voice in the car today. Ask Dani to do the same, that you want to hear her real voice, and hear her work on it, so that she will be more ready for transition once starting on HRT. Let her know that if she starts now with everything, it will be easier and faster once she starts HRT.
Thanks again everyone for the replies and insights. You're all being so good to me :icon_hug: :icon_hug:
We talked over dinner tonight. It appears we still had some communication issues that caused some tangled and hurt feelings.
Dani felt that I meant that she needed to basically be ready for full time before starting hormones and I can see how she interpreted what I said that way. That's not what I meant and I had more success explaining that I just wanted her to have some experience so that not everything was "new" when she walked out the door as female. Once Dani realized what I meant, she was in agreement on this. *Whew!*
She also admitted that she hasn't done much future planning because she thought that I wasn't ready to talk about it yet. I thought she understood I was ready for the next steps. Once we ironed out that yes, I am ready to talk about future stuff and what comes next, talking got a lot easier.
So we're still ironing out communication issues, it seems.
I did have to directly ask her about when her therapist appointment was though. I'd have thought she'd be caroling from the hills about it :P Ah, well. She did say she felt out of sorts with me after talking last night, so I suppose I can forgive her. It's mid-September.
So I feel less like a Mean Mom now and more of a partner again. Yay! (I don't wanna be a mom!)
The big obstacle now is the fact that I don't have a job. Without a job it hampers us moving to our own place, which hampers Dani really doing anything. *sigh* I hate feeling like I'm holding her back, even though I'm not doing it on purpose and she isn't blaming me.
Things are looking up :)
WR
Quote from: Windrider on August 27, 2008, 07:10:02 PM
Thanks again everyone for the replies and insights. You're all being so good to me :icon_hug: :icon_hug:
We talked over dinner tonight. It appears we still had some communication issues that caused some tangled and hurt feelings.
Dani felt that I meant that she needed to basically be ready for full time before starting hormones and I can see how she interpreted what I said that way. That's not what I meant and I had more success explaining that I just wanted her to have some experience so that not everything was "new" when she walked out the door as female. Once Dani realized what I meant, she was in agreement on this. *Whew!*
She also admitted that she hasn't done much future planning because she thought that I wasn't ready to talk about it yet. I thought she understood I was ready for the next steps. Once we ironed out that yes, I am ready to talk about future stuff and what comes next, talking got a lot easier.
So we're still ironing out communication issues, it seems.
I did have to directly ask her about when her therapist appointment was though. I'd have thought she'd be caroling from the hills about it :P Ah, well. She did say she felt out of sorts with me after talking last night, so I suppose I can forgive her. It's mid-September.
So I feel less like a Mean Mom now and more of a partner again. Yay! (I don't wanna be a mom!)
The big obstacle now is the fact that I don't have a job. Without a job it hampers us moving to our own place, which hampers Dani really doing anything. *sigh* I hate feeling like I'm holding her back, even though I'm not doing it on purpose and she isn't blaming me.
Things are looking up :)
WR
At least your moving forward and working things out, the more you talk the better.
I say Print this whole thread out and ask her to read it, because I cannot believe how incredibly willing and supporting you are of this woman, if she only knew what a AMAZINGLY understanding woman you are, and how lucky she is to have you....
Also You have really layed out everything you want to address, and the specifics of what you are thinking about.
Alot of times those things are soooo hard to put into words, but you have done it so well in your writing.
IDK again best of luck to you both.
Quote from: Jordan on August 28, 2008, 02:23:20 AM
I say Print this whole thread out and ask her to read it, because I cannot believe how incredibly willing and supporting you are of this woman, if she only knew what a AMAZINGLY understanding woman you are, and how lucky she is to have you....
Also You have really layed out everything you want to address, and the specifics of what you are thinking about.
Alot of times those things are soooo hard to put into words, but you have done it so well in your writing.
IDK again best of luck to you both.
Dani has probably taken a look already, I would not doubt it.
Dani's excitement and her sense of non-rationality about process are simply pretty common among the transitioners I've known and known about. It's very easy to think that "this changes everything and all will be well." And, hopefuy it will and it will.
But, there is that very impirtant ingredient that for now it sounds as if you are providing, WR. She really does need to make some considerations about how this is going to be handled and how it will affect her work and relationships. At the very least she needs to look at that kinda stuff.
The absolute last thing she needs to do is to imagine, even in her deepest heart-of-hearts, that a change-over of estrogen for testosterone in her body is going to somehow make everything totally different.
Your practicality needs to be heard and understood by this girl. Goddess knows there are enough truns and twists of plot that will arise in even the best and most thoroughly planned transitions. No one can "be ready" for all of those, but one can make plans and preparations that may very well save themselves from suicide and depressions that can result from plans gone awry or no plans at all.
Try to maintain the "voice of reason" for she's going to need that from someone she trusts and respects: you. I very much feel for the way doing so makes you feel; but at some point I think she will see that you aren't a hinderance, but an invaluable aid to making sure "she doesn't fail at this."
I have the deepest respect for you. What you are doing requires an extraordinary love and committment. Any woman or man would be blessed to have you in her or his entourage for anything in their lives.
Love,
Nichole
Quote from: Windrider on August 25, 2008, 12:02:21 PM
Dani is a very wonderful woman. She's my best friend, lover, partner...it's so hard to describe in words what I feel when I think of her. All I know is that if she left, I'd have a huge hole in my life that I don't know if it would ever heal. I don't know if I can explain it, but staying through Dani's transition is so much more than just the vows that said "for better or for worse". It's about friendship - friends don't leave when the other is having a tough time. That's when people need friends the most. Partners help pull the load during good times, willingly shoulder all of it during bad times, and help their partner regain their footing. Lovers do just because. No strings attached. Love doesn't have strings or counter or debts. It's not the best explanation, but I'm having a hard time finding the right words to explain what I feel.
When Dani decided to go ahead with transition this time, I saw a person I hadn't seen in nearly 10 years. I saw the person I fell in love with again. I don't want that person to leave again.
Thank you all so much! :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug:
It's called "Love?" :P
~Lane
i had some similar feelings with my SO started to fully actuate her transition. when we started spending time together, i learned more about her being trans and got a better understanding of what that meant. i made the educated decision to be with her anyway. she makes me happier than anyone that i've ever been with, even considering all the added stresses of having a trans partner.
i am totally supportive as much of the time as i can be.
the day she went to the endo and got her first 'scrip for hormones she came running upstars where i was getting ready to go to work. she was so happy. she just came in to grab a couple things and then head to the pharmacy. after she left, i cried. not because i didn't want for her to go through with it but because i knew that this was the start of something and also the end of something. even though it is a really stressful time for her and i totally understand that, it's also sort of stressful for me.
i also have the fear that i am going to support her through all of this-we even have discussions of me going to thailand for her srs-and after it's all said and done she is going to have the confidance to go out and find someone better. questioning self worth and esteem isn't saved just for the transitioner.
all i can say is hang in there. it sounds like dani is pretty lucky to have you around. just keep your chin up and remember that whatever insecurities you're feeling, dani is probably feeling them 10 fold.
i know it's diffacult, but it's probably worth it too.
Quote from: Katelynne on September 08, 2008, 08:26:35 AM
i had some similar feelings with my SO started to fully actuate her transition. when we started spending time together, i learned more about her being trans and got a better understanding of what that meant. i made the educated decision to be with her anyway. she makes me happier than anyone that i've ever been with, even considering all the added stresses of having a trans partner.
i am totally supportive as much of the time as i can be.
the day she went to the endo and got her first 'scrip for hormones she came running upstars where i was getting ready to go to work. she was so happy. she just came in to grab a couple things and then head to the pharmacy. after she left, i cried. not because i didn't want for her to go through with it but because i knew that this was the start of something and also the end of something. even though it is a really stressful time for her and i totally understand that, it's also sort of stressful for me.
i also have the fear that i am going to support her through all of this-we even have discussions of me going to thailand for her srs-and after it's all said and done she is going to have the confidance to go out and find someone better. questioning self worth and esteem isn't saved just for the transitioner.
all i can say is hang in there. it sounds like dani is pretty lucky to have you around. just keep your chin up and remember that whatever insecurities you're feeling, dani is probably feeling them 10 fold.
i know it's diffacult, but it's probably worth it too.
Well said.
To all of you SO's, I need to say again my own appreciation, because it is those like you who want to try to stay with their partner that make this world a better place. You aren't giving up on your love just because the going gets tough, and your transitioning SO's I know appreciate it. Well at least I know I would appreciate such love and devotion with no conditions. That is the true form of love, unconditional.
I am glad though that I have never had anyone so that I couldn't hurt them with this change, I would never want to do that to someone I love. Hell, its hard enough with my parents, much less an SO tossed into the mix.
Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 01, 2008, 04:36:12 AM
It's called "Love?" :P
~Lane
Yay! Someone got what I was trying to say!
Katelynne: Thanks so much :) I know the physical transformations will probably be the most difficult for me, but I am comfortable with Dani's current "plan" (for lack of a better word) of how she'd like to progress. The hurdle now is me getting a job so we *can* progress. *sigh*
Rachel: :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :D
To all the SO's on this board:
Where were you all like four months AGO!!!
If i could get my wife to come on here (she is already registered) could you please talk to her?
I know she desperatly needs to speak to another in her situation...
Quote from: Jordan on September 12, 2008, 12:41:58 PM
To all the SO's on this board:
Where were you all like four months AGO!!!
If i could get my wife to come on here (she is already registered) could you please talk to her?
I know she desperatly needs to speak to another in her situation...
Well, 4 months ago, Dani was still in denial :) However, I would be delighted to talk to your wife. I'm also on the #SOTalk chat if she'd like to talk to me there.
WR