I'm not going to be able to give myself T shots. Just no way. I'm afraid it'll trigger serious cravings.
So how practical are the other methods? How much more money we talking? What are the differences?
Do they work as well? Anybody here on anything other than injectables?
Oral T is tough on the liver. Very tough. It is not commonly prescribed.
Creams and Gels are commonly prescribed, but many people have slower changes when on them. Periods can take longer to stop and there is a risk of transferring the gel/cream to a partner or others you're in close skin contact with.
The following is laid out type/average dose/average monthly cost.
Striant® mg/day 180-210
Androgel® mg/day 160-210
Androderm® mg/day 120-200
Testopel® pellets plus trocar kit q3months 80-90
Injected Enanthate mg/wk 35-50
Injected Cypionate mg/wk 25-35
Testim® mg/day 160-210
Had to edit out the dosages but thanks for the info. Looks like I'll have to get someone to shoot me once a week if I'll save that much money.
Why did you edit out the dose amounts?
It's not allowed. Do appreciate your gathering this info for me though.Site Terms of Service and rules to live by (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)
The terms say posting dose amounts is discouraged, not that it's not allowed. Dose amount is related to cost in my post, as it is also a guide on the cost of hormones. If this is not an acceptable post to add dose information to, then what possibly could be?
I'm severely scared of needles, the first shot I gave "myself" was actually my dr, putting her fingers on the needling, my fingers over hers, her doing all the work and just mind effing me! But I WANT to learn how to do it, first and foremost to just get over that fear, and it will be a LOT easier to give myself shots.
I go in Saturday for a shot, and I'm being basically forced to do it myself, my dr is sick of my excuses lol. I'll let you know how it goes.
I'm on T gel daily and have been for 5 weeks now.
My whole life I've been a sugar addict. Yes, I know it's not alcohol, but serious enough to cause significant weight gain and fat accumulation. Let's just say that sugar and processed carbs don't agree with my metabolism.
That said, since starting T, I have NOT wanted anything to do with them. I don't crave sweets or carbs. They're just there, like any other food. I've been able to eat healthy foods, fruits, and veggies (which I have a serious hate relationship with!) etc. Maybe it's because my endo told me to eat more fiber to lower my cholesterol. Who knows.
Lastly I have already seen changes on the gel -- lower voice, growth, acne, calmer mood, etc.
Your mileage may vary.
Jay
Cost is only one factor. In terms of options you have oral, needles, topical, sublingual or pellets. I dislike needles, need steady long term levels and like my liver; so pellet HRT was a good choice but other go with one of the other options.
Currently oral is not an option because the dose needed would cause serious hepatoxicity (this means liver tumors). However Oregnon has recently produced another oral version that they say is safer but the jury is entirely out on that matter. Avoid oral dosing until some longer term studies addressing safety and effectiveness.
Sublingual is better then oral but people have trouble with the tabs adhering or causing irritation and some of the dose is swallowed the jury is out on whether that is dangerous. I haven't done this method and all those I know who tried it have given up this treatment. It may be right for someone though.
Topical is split into gel, cream and patches the difference being gel has alcohol, cream doesn't and patches don't stay on. Avoid the gel because of alcohol and patches because the technology isn't able to provide large enough doses which means multiple patches. The majority of reported allergies or sensitization are to the gel or patches. You can get the cream cheaper by having it compounded. 10% is the highest concentration we can make which means smaller amount to put on (important) and can be applied to the genitals. Topical tend to produce higher serum DHT levels which isn't what you want if you are trying to save your hair. Plus there is a rise in PSA levels for whatever that means. They are easier to apply and cause no trauma however they present a danger to children and pregnant women.
Injections range wildly but there is a lot of information out there on it. At the end of the day you are choosing based on frequency, site, IM/ SubQ, and size of injection, doing it yourself or having someone else do it, stability of dosage, cost and personal preference. I know guys who shoot 12 times a day and others who do it 4 times a year. Swings are huge with this method. You need to do staggered dosing for best effect. Since skin in entered the risks include infection, pain, swelling, tissue damage, blood clots and the dangers thereof.
All methods can work at the right dosage.
It is interesting to note that the dosage isn't convertible for different methods and can effect price. For instance where I needed 28 units of cyp, 5.5 units of pellets and 100 units of 10% cream. This means that the actual costs per unit aren't adding up. The raw powder testosterone is about 20/g and DHT 100/g with my nor-testosterone about 30/g. From a testosterone stand point T-cyp cost about 1.15, cream about 4.60 and alternatively the pellets about 11 cents a day. Now you add in the cost of manufacturing are about the same. So generally speaking T-cyp is 10 times more expensive then pellets and cream is about 4 times more expensive then cyp or 40 times more expensive then pellets.
Next are incidental costs which means needle or implanting. I won't talk about this on the board except to say there are much cheaper ways to get the pellets inside you then your doctor wants to charge and you can do it yourself. This is where if you pay most doctors to do it you the cost will rise. I do it myself and after this batch I will have them compounded.
I am currently on DHT and testosterone about to start my final HRT adjustment and add a nor-testosterone. Adding DHT has meant I could lower my testosterone doses, have better E2 levels and get better effects. The nor-testosterone might return me to pre-hysto mass and strength, will balance out the scales and lower my testosterone dose further. We are hoping to bring it down to 4.5 units with 2 units DHT and 2 units of tren. For me that would mean a cost of about 48 cents a day or 175 dollars a year with a trocar. This is apposed to my cyp which cost me 1.65 a day or 420 dollars a year with needles. So if you pay more then 300 dollar for a years implanting then the IM is cheaper. On the other hand of options without you giving needles the implant sessions could cost you 1500 dollars a year before the cream is cheaper.
Some people like or don't care about the swing in dosage sublingual (2-3X daily), topical (daily), IM/ SubQ (3 days to 3 months depending on ester) or hate it and use pellets (4- 6 months) or really hate it and custom make pellets lasting 3- 5 years between swings. You will have swings so you either go with custom pellets for the longest time between, increase dosing schedule or both. The goal is to have small less noticeable swings. I personally use both by implanting two staggered doses. In addition you must be aware that your bodies physiologically will change your dosage at any given time. Your body can and does toss hormones back and forth depending on need. This is why your E2 rises if you add too much testosterone.
So on that data I personally would use the following products and rate them as the best if not contra-indicated.
Pellets
Topical
Injections
Scarring, Truama and Ease of administration Levels-
Topical
Injections
Pellets
Dosage flexibility-
Topicals
Injections
Pellets
If you might need to cease treatment then I would say.
Pellets (90min)
Saline Injections (4hrs)
Topical (24hrs)
Esterfied Injections (3 days to 3 months)
I would ordered them as a front line, secondary and long term treatments from top to bottom.
Compounded or commercial 10% testosterone cream
Mixed Ester Injection like Sustanon or cypionate
Compounded custom or commercial testosterone pellets
Hope you enjoyed this week's lesson on testosterone. I hope other can chime in on mistake I have made. Take care.
->-bleeped-<-boy
Quote from: sneakersjay on September 04, 2008, 06:36:35 AM
I'm on T gel daily and have been for 5 weeks now.
My whole life I've been a sugar addict. Yes, I know it's not alcohol, but serious enough to cause significant weight gain and fat accumulation. Let's just say that sugar and processed carbs don't agree with my metabolism.
That said, since starting T, I have NOT wanted anything to do with them. I don't crave sweets or carbs. They're just there, like any other food. I've been able to eat healthy foods, fruits, and veggies (which I have a serious hate relationship with!) etc. Maybe it's because my endo told me to eat more fiber to lower my cholesterol. Who knows.
Lastly I have already seen changes on the gel -- lower voice, growth, acne, calmer mood, etc.
Your mileage may vary.
Jay
you stopped craving sugar?
could T be ANY MORE APPEALING?
If you take too much T, the worst that can happen is that it will turn into estrogen.
But yeah, I'm useless. All I know about is injection because that's the method I will use.
Quote from: Elwood on September 04, 2008, 07:24:43 PM
If you take too much T, the worst that can happen is that it will turn into estrogen.
But yeah, I'm useless. All I know about is injection because that's the method I will use.
or you could have a heart attack and die... >_>
Quote from: Chet on September 04, 2008, 07:37:16 PMQuote from: Elwood on September 04, 2008, 07:24:43 PMIf you take too much T, the worst that can happen is that it will turn into estrogen.
But yeah, I'm useless. All I know about is injection because that's the method I will use.
or you could have a heart attack and die... >_>
Never heard that one.
Quote from: Chet on September 04, 2008, 07:37:16 PM
Quote from: Elwood on September 04, 2008, 07:24:43 PM
If you take too much T, the worst that can happen is that it will turn into estrogen.
But yeah, I'm useless. All I know about is injection because that's the method I will use.
or you could have a heart attack and die... >_>
Only if you inject a TON of testosterone directly in your vein.
Quote from: Mister on September 04, 2008, 08:02:44 PM
Quote from: Chet on September 04, 2008, 07:37:16 PM
Quote from: Elwood on September 04, 2008, 07:24:43 PM
If you take too much T, the worst that can happen is that it will turn into estrogen.
But yeah, I'm useless. All I know about is injection because that's the method I will use.
or you could have a heart attack and die... >_>
Only if you inject a TON of testosterone directly in your vein.
but it could still happen. :P but in the long run, its better to have a normal cismale level of testosterone for safety.
What are pellets? Are they some kind of implant?
Quote from: Chet on September 04, 2008, 11:15:14 PM
Quote from: Mister on September 04, 2008, 08:02:44 PM
Quote from: Chet on September 04, 2008, 07:37:16 PM
Quote from: Elwood on September 04, 2008, 07:24:43 PM
If you take too much T, the worst that can happen is that it will turn into estrogen.
But yeah, I'm useless. All I know about is injection because that's the method I will use.
or you could have a heart attack and die... >_>
Only if you inject a TON of testosterone directly in your vein.
but it could still happen. :P but in the long run, its better to have a normal cismale level of testosterone for safety.
Could it? Yeah.. but it's more likely you'd die from a tiny little air bubble in the syringe than the testosterone if you injected directly into a vein. And injecting directly into a vein is only possible if you don't follow appropriate injection procedure...
Injecting any testosterone IV will kill you. It will cause blood clots, thats why you aspirate before injecting.
->-bleeped-<-boy
Quote from: Nero on September 04, 2008, 12:28:55 AM
I'm not going to be able to give myself T shots. Just no way. I'm afraid it'll trigger serious cravings.
Wait, what? First, I've never heard of testosterone triggering cravings. (Okay, I eat more now, but I'm also bigger.) Second, if testosterone DID trigger cravings, it wouldn't matter what form you took. Third, that's a pretty weird reason not to start T or to use injectable T...
(Or, wait, did you not mean food cravings? Am I missing something? Are you afraid of needles or something???? ??? ??? ???)
I think the problem is/was that at some point in Nero's life he liked the needle way too much. As in Neil Young's Needle and the Damage Done.
Quote from: tekla on September 07, 2008, 10:44:48 AM
I think the problem is/was that at some point in Nero's life he liked the needle way too much. As in Neil Young's Needle and the Damage Done.
Oh, okay. Would it be better to have someone else inject it for you? 'Cause oral T and the others aren't really optimal methods of taking the stuff...
Quote'Cause oral T and the others aren't really optimal methods of taking the stuff...
And why aren't they Optimal? If they aren't as "good" then why the hell would they offer them. My Doctor told me that everyone has T shots because they are cheap and the most "commerical" known. Im paying £45 a month whereas before I was paying £30 for 3 months!
From what I have read about T Oral T is a definite no no. The reason they prefer to give it via injection is that it means it is not going directly through your digestive sytem, ie. cutting out running straight through the liver. I have also heard that with the creams you have to be careful about contact with people for a while after first applying it before it sinks in, especially pregnant women and young children, it can rub off with dire consequences (this may be incorrect but I have read it somewhere). Other than that I am not sure how practical it is other than it must become a pain in the a**e applying it everyday.
I have switched to a new brand of T about a year ago and only have to have my injections every ** weeks now compared to every * weeks on the previous type (much larger dose with Nebido compared to Sustanon plus less fluctuation between injections in the lebido dept.). I know this may not help with people who are phobic about needles but what Nero asked originally was how practical are the alternatives and I think injections are the most practical way overall.
John
QuoteI have also heard that with the creams you have to be careful about contact with people for a while after first applying it before it sinks in, especially pregnant women and young children, it can rub off with dire consequences (this may be incorrect but I have read it somewhere). Other than that I am not sure how practical it is other than it must become a pain in the a**e applying it everyday.
This is true. I apply mine right after showering and dress when dry. If you cover the applied area with a tee shirt there is no transfering to other people. A guy I know on gel has a gf/wife and he applies his gel in the morning and showers after work, so there is no transferring to her when they're together.
It's not really a pain but it does take a few minutes to dry. Not good if you're in a hurry. So far I like the steady state of T in my system and have had totally even moods even after my recent hysto with no hot flashes. I'm really NOT into lotions and such so that is a drawback; OTOH I'm not really into stabbing myself with needles, either. So both have their pros and cons. I get my T level checked in 2 weeks and we'll see where I stand. My endo will switch me to injections if the topical isn't cutting it.
Jay
I love the needle. But I don't think I'm going to start shooting up with heroin.