It was a year ago, on October 11, National Coming Out Day, I transitioned to full time with the full support of management at my job. It was the happiest day of my life. Looking back on a year of full time and ahead to the rest of my life, I'm assessing where I'm at in life.
My gender history is TS. For some, the trans- prefix is interpreted as "transgressive"-- they want to disrupt the gender binary. For me, it means "transience"-- having crossed from one side of the binary to the other, I just want to leave transgender behind, and settle in where I feel at home. One year on, I'm just a woman. No more, no less. Not a woman with an asterisk, not a special subcategory of woman. Just a woman like other women. I don't want to stand out or be marked out as different from other women in any way. All I want to do is assimilate into womanhood, I do not want to be identified as trans.
I'm not calling it stealth, since with all the electronic trail and the increased surveillance and intrusion into people's lives, there is no such thing as privacy any more. Any job worth having these days involves a background check-- and they WILL turn up your gender history and out you. Realistically, there is no such thing as stealth any more (unless you earn a living off the grid as a day laborer or a subsistence farmer). The concept of "stealth," now obsolete, is left over from the 1960s when people really could make a fresh start in life. Nowadays our past, like William Faulkner said, isn't even past. It will tail us for the rest of our lives anytime anyone decides to investigate us. This makes it all the more imperative to enact full legal protection from discrimination against gender identity.
Although true stealth isn't possible any more, in everyday life I do not go around volunteering information about my gender history. It's no one else's business. I am simply a woman and that's all anyone needs to know about me, with the exception of a few medical caregivers. Because the point of my going through all that transsexual hassle, expense, effort, and heartbreak is not to be transgender-- it's to be a woman.
By saying I'm just a woman, I in no way intend to disparage TG activists for openly identifying as trans. Actually, I admire them for taking upon themselves a burden to help the community which would be too hard for me to bear. They are better women than I.
I've just been through so much difficulty and even trauma about my gender already, I don't think I can take on any more. We each help out in any way we can. Now this is how I need to heal.
I actually identify as a lesbian. I am an LGBT activist in my capacity as an out & proud lesbian. Since these days many lesbian activists are vocal in their support for transgender equal rights, I join with them and work for transgender rights as a lesbian ally of transgender within the broader scope of LGBT.
I adamantly do not disparage crossdressers for being different than me. They are human beings and totally deserve equal rights, freedom from discrimination, and basic human dignity the same as any other human beings. I will fight strenuously against transgender-phobic transitioned TS people, like that atrocious HBS ideology so filled with bitter venom against transgender people. HBS's hatred is obviously the result of fear: some of us TS are deathly afraid of being connected with transgender. I can be a bigger woman than that. I am a strong woman who believes in herself, and that's all I need. I feel secure enough in my own womanhood that I can support people who, unlike me, are between genders. I do not gain anything for myself by putting down others who are different. However. I have real difficulty seeing how crossdressers and I can fit into the same category. Our issues are completely different. I support transgender rights as a matter of principle, because it's the right thing to do, the same as many non-transgender people support them as allies. I am not putting down crossdressers by defining the vast differences between us. Just being realistic.
Sometimes non-transitioning TG activists complain that TS are taking up all the action and ignoring TG issues. If so much more attention is being paid to TS issues, please consider there is a sound reason for that. Our needs are so much more extreme. We have to take dangerous hormones and pay for expensive surgery, otherwise we will die from our extreme dysphoria. Our needs are vastly more dire compared to individuals who feel free to flit back and forth easily between genders upon a moment's whim. I am totally for protecting non-transitioning TG people from discrimination and ensuring full legal and social equality for them. But let's keep things in perspective.
It does make it a very unique civil rights issue. After all, is Barrak Obama ever going to get to not be black? People don't get to stop being gay, or Hispanic. But there is a sort of "I'm here for the icing, they rest of you make the cake" tone to it.
So are you saying it's selfish to be transsexual? Is there an implied value judgment here?
Whether you're openly TG or quietly post-transition TS, it doesn't make anyone better or worse or "less than" another. This is just who I am, that's all. When I came out, when I shook off the false gender imposed on me by society, it was a commitment to being who I really am. Having accomplished that, no one else can dictate to me now what my gender ought to be. I will not pretend to be someone I'm not just to placate somebody else's agenda. That's what it all means.
Can I ask, if you don't identify as transgender, why do you frequent a transgender forum? I can relate to how you feel, of course: I want to be viewed as a woman sans asterisk as well. At the same time, I can't forget where I'm from, and I want to try to make things better/easier for those who come after me. I think the important thing here is to view "transness" as purely adjectival, and not as substantial. I'm okay with being called a transgender woman, but being called "a transgender" is definitely not my goal. I guess that's just the nature of the transgender movement, being as broad a coalition as it is; some are assimilationists, while others actually want to be regarded as "third gender."
Just thoughts.
Lia
Because there is a difference between having a trait and identifying oneself by that trait.
Quote from: Hypatia on October 14, 2008, 03:32:55 PM
Because there is a difference between having a trait and identifying oneself by that trait.
Because there's a difference in being one's self and in being someone's label.
Nikki
Quote from: Purple Pimp on October 14, 2008, 02:58:01 PM
Can I ask, if you don't identify as transgender, why do you frequent a transgender forum?
Just thoughts.
Lia
If you look at Hypatia's profile, you will see that she spends almost all of her time here at Susan's in the Transsexual Forum, and MTF Transsexual Forums
Just a few more thoughts.........
For me, I prefer being referred to simply as a woman. If you care, then a lesbian woman. In fact, I frequently wear jewelry that identifies me as lesbian. But please, don't use a label on me. I admit as well, that CD's confuse me a bit, but I would publicly stand up for their rights.
I have had to stand up for my own rights. It cost me my job, but I won, and got it back. If I stood a chance of being in that kind of rock fight again for standing up for anyone's transgender rights, I would not hesitate to do so. But I'm a woman. If you MUST know, a transsexual woman.
Bev
just, Bev
I'm not 'transgender' & 'transsexual' isn't my identity either. My transsexuality is a birth defect I'm getting fixed in a few days. I'm not going to buy into the semantics of what is 'transgender' or 'transsexual". I'm female & that's all there's to it.
Quote from: Miss Bev on October 14, 2008, 08:47:16 PM
If you look at Hypatia's profile, you will see that she spends almost all of her time here at Susan's in the Transsexual Forum, and MTF Transsexual Forums
Just a few more thoughts.........
Ahhh, Labels, Labels, Labels what the hell does it matter what one wants to be called as we are all free to make our own minds up.
From now on I am going to identify as a Carbon based life form consisting of mostly water.
I actually stopped identifying as a transsexual when my birth certificate was changed to Female as in the eyes of the law that is what I now am.
Buffy
Quote from: Jeannette on October 14, 2008, 11:51:19 PM
I'm not 'transgender' & 'transsexual' isn't my identity either. My transsexuality is a birth defect I'm getting fixed in a few days. I'm not going to buy into the semantics of what is 'transgender' or 'transsexual". I'm female & that's all there's to it.
Very well said, Jeannette! Best wishes for your upgrade!
Posted on: October 15, 2008, 09:40:33 am
Quote from: Buffy on October 15, 2008, 12:39:39 AMI actually stopped identifying as a transsexual when my birth certificate was changed to Female as in the eyes of the law that is what I now am.
I think my mind firmed up on the same conclusion when my Social Security and driver's license got the F. But as for birth certificates, I had the misfortune to be born in Ohio where they have outlawed changes on those. For that matter, Kent State University also refused to change the gender on my alumnae file because of Ohio law. Damn them. Anyway, SS and DL and everything else involved in my transition to full time were enough to bring me to realize what you said.
Apples and oranges; you will always be a member of the transgender and transsexual communities because you can't change your past. However your past no matter how important is only a piece who you and doesn't determine your future. You may however chose any label you wish and be as stealth as you wish. I would however encourage you not deny your experiences with doctors or your lawyers, other then that have fun. If you don't want to be an activist thats fine but I would also love you fighting by my shoulder.
Find the right place for you and hope that if they defeat the activists, that you are not next, whatever labels you call yourself.
->-bleeped-<-boy
I want to have the right parts bad enough that I'd sell my life to the tabloids if that would help me get a real penis. Being called transgender won't matter to me if I'm fully equipped. It's the, "He's transgendered, he doesn't have a dick" that bothers me.
Quote from: tekla on October 13, 2008, 10:21:58 PM
It does make it a very unique civil rights issue. After all, is Barrak Obama ever going to get to not be black? People don't get to stop being gay, or Hispanic. But there is a sort of "I'm here for the icing, they rest of you make the cake" tone to it.
Yet it is difficult to argue that transsexual is different from other civil rights issues. Skin colour is a physical attribute difficult to hide. Sexuality is impossible to hide if you ever want to get a partner, as is being a crossdresser (to a lesser extent). Yet transsexuality, is to do with your anatomy at birth. A past fact that has little (or no) relevance in your present/future life.
I would also like to add that being gay is also considered by some as a unique civil rights issue, since the religious right
et al. claim it to be a choice unlike sex or race.
As far as i'm concerned trans activism (or any other minority activism) is an honourable and often selfless pursuit. But that certainly doesn't imply that non-activism is selfish, which it is often depicted as
I already said I'm a lesbian activist working for LGBT rights, including not least transgender.
QuoteI'm not 'transgender' & 'transsexual' isn't my identity either. My transsexuality is a birth defect I'm getting fixed in a few days. I'm not going to buy into the semantics of what is 'transgender' or 'transsexual". I'm female & that's all there's to it.
Well in about three weeks Wing Walker and I will be going to Montreal where she will be crossing that very same bridge into as complete a woman that medical science can make her.
I have already been 9 years full time, hard to beleive ain't it. Yet there are others here who have been full time as women much longer then I have, but now the memory of who I was before has grown fainter in memory. I have worked with women and associated with women for all of those years so that now to be among women is just a normal thing to do as breathing. I don't feel any different from them then they do me.
I am a woman with a transsexual background, A birth defect I find, is as good a way to describe it as any, and was rectified four years ago. I live with another woman and our relationship is based solely on intimacy, love and caring, for one another at this time. I have never given it much of a thought, but I suppose that our relationship could be technically labeled as lesbians.
As for the transitioning journey at the beginning, was a selfish act, it had to be in order for me to survive. Once I had control of my own life again, I resumed doing what I knew best how to do, which is working with people that are in need.
I came back to Susan's in the hopes that maybe I could teach something from my own personal experiences as well as to give what support I could to whom ever I could who was and is still willing to accept that support. I believe I did fairly well doing so. As for other threads with the many members of the transgender comunity in these forums, well, I have poured myself everywhere like spilled coffee. I met a lot of interesting folks, and I don't believe there is anyone here that dislikes me, I think that's a pretty good track record. ;)
To me they are all people who think and have feelings, and I am ready and willing to help anyone who needs it. It would be the same with anyone out there in the real world, not saying that the folks in these forums are not real, but for lack of a better expression I will say in the real world out there. I have extended my hand from the town Mayer to Billy The bum sitting on a park bench. It also didn't matter what the color of their skin is, or what nationality, religion, sect, or denomnation they were or are. Here in Vancouver I have worked along side of Seeks, African Americans, Moslems, Italians, Spanish Mexican, Two of them are a couple of my best lady friends etc. And last but not least my own brothers and sisters, North American Natives.
Been doing this kind of work for twenty two years, why should I let my being transsexual slow me down any. I probably will continue to do this type of work until I drop dead at the very feet of the people that I have come to love and care for like they were an extended family.
Have a wonderful morning all
Cindy
It is very depressive to think that after SRS I am rest of my life only a post-op transsexual not a woman. And because of that I will face many problems. It is very possible that I will never have a family. Even it could be possible even in the future where I live I cannot just risk other, innocent people because of my personal history. Even here where I live transwoman could marry and adopt children in case she finds a husband I could not do it. And also in practice no man here will marry a post-op transwoman. Other aspect is work. In future employers will be using more and more DNA-testing. I really doubt to I get a job in many cases if they discover that I have XY-chromosome. And also travelling. Even I could get here a female passport I would be in great danger while traveling to countries where transsexuals are not allowed.
When I 'transitioned', back in the bad old days, there was no astrix and it was assumed one would go on to life a normal life (actually, if the doctors & shrinks didn't think you would, you didn't get surgery) and that's exactly what I did for 30 years. I never thought of myself as any different than any natal woman and neither did anyone else. Sure, I had my minor idiosyncrasies, but who doesn't. Even when a rumor spread about my medical past (at a time when no one knew except my husband and my doctor), the rumor was dismissed as impossible by those who knew me because it simply did not "fit".
It wasn't until I came to the online forums a few years ago that I discovered some people live "out". I can't imagine what that must be like.
I will say to Hypatia that if you feel you ARE a woman (right down to the core of your being) and get on with life as a woman, people will see nothing else. I don't care how ugly you are ;) or how big - if you ARE a woman, that will override everything else, even changing the perceptions of "those who know".
(I only came to the forums to try to help but find myself so "out of date" that it is sometimes difficult.)
Quote from: Northern Jane on October 16, 2008, 10:11:30 AM
... if you feel you ARE a woman (right down to the core of your being) and get on with life as a woman, people will see nothing else. I don't care how ugly you are ;) or how big - if you ARE a woman, that will override everything else, even changing the perceptions of "those who know".
(I only came to the forums to try to help but find myself so "out of date" that it is sometimes difficult.)
That out-of-dateness seems absolutely up-to-date to me, Jane.
Arguments about how one is addressed are simply a surface complication, imo, that oftens stirs strong emotion, just the way an uninvited pinch can do.
If I choose to gather under the T grouping in support and solidarity with many people who do not either have or present a clear gender identity I find that no different than maybe joining as a supporter of the NAACP, or in helping fund the United Jewish Appeal or Lambda Legal.
I don't belive that anyone is gonna say that membership in the NAACP makes me a woman "of color" nor does that give me a basic insight into what it means to be a "woman of color" in the USA. Neither does a contribution to the UJA somehow give me a Jewish identity.
If one is a man or a woman, then his or her associations don't make any difference at all to that fact. She doesn't become a cross-dresser simply because she sees a need and is willing to support, rally with, press for non-discriminatory policies for or even marry, fall in love with or live next-door to a crossdresser.
If she is a woman, that, as Jane so succintly and wisely said
override(s) everything else, even changing the perceptions of "those who know". Nikki
Quote from: glendagladwitch on October 16, 2008, 06:41:46 AMI don't know whether that is how you feel, Hypatia. But, if so, it might seem to imply to others that you view those who don't eschew the transgendered label as not having a fully transitioned identity. Some transitioned people who embrace the T label might take offense on that basis.
What? I never said or implied or thought any such thing. Please don't put words in my mouth that have nothing to do with me.
QuoteSo perhaps you have some comments that will illuminate how one can resent the T label and not judge others who embrace it post transition. I must admit to curiosity in that regard.
I do not know what you are talking about. Whatever it is, I ask that you do not attribute it to me because I had nothing to do with it.
i don't know if i'm a new breed or just to old to know the difference. first...i am a woman...then i am a transwoman. maybe it's the time of life i came into real life or what...but i find it completely unbelievable that anyone who gets to know me at all wouldn't know i was trans.
ok...ok...yes...i pass...<God, i hate that> that makes me feel like a real creep....like i'm sneaking around in someone else's space. but i only pass on the surface. the fact is...i am not just another woman. i'm a woman with a very specific history that includes having been identified as male for the vast majority of it. that's not just some little something that don't add up to much...it adds up to most of my life!
when i talk with people...ok, maybe i'm at that age, but my history always gets into the conversation. so much of that history i spent in maleness...how can i not let that cat out of the bag?
transition and surgery didn't make me a new person, it just upgraded the old one...brought the anatomy up to speed. sure lots of things are different and i relate to others in different ways...most of those ways are positive..i'm happy about them...shoot...i want to talk about where they came from. i have a very interesting history and i'm not in the least ashamed of any of it...i'm kind of proud of the fact that i finally got it together enough to make something of myself. i never wanted to be anything else then just what i am...a transwoman...i'll never be anything but a transwoman in this life time. i don't envy anyone and i don't belittle anyone...we're all just what we are and the sooner we get down to not just accepting that but embracing it the better off we'll all be.
Like I said, my past is not anyone else's business. I feel no compulsion to share it with strangers. My privacy is very important to me. You speak of being ashamed. What has shame got to do with it? Maybe it's revealing that you introduced shame into the topic, but I am not coming at it from that angle.
I don't get the feeling of guilt for passing. I feel it's my right to be who I am and I deserve to be acknowledged for it. Who I am is a woman. I don't experience any feelings of guilt for being the wrong kind of woman or whatever. I just don't believe that being transsexual places me into a separate sub-category of woman that would make me feel guilty for "passing" as the "right" kind of woman. I am the right kind of woman already. I don't recognize the existence of second-class types of women. Women are just women, we're all equal in human worth and dignity, and that's that. I know I am just as good a woman as anyone else, so no guilt about being me, no guilt about being able to function in the world as the woman I am.
Embrace what we are? Oh yes, I wrap my arms around me and I hug myself. As for how I got to this place in my life, that is private and as a general rule I guard my privacy. People need to mind their own business.
Cindy smiles. :D
Cindy
I don't recognize the existence of second-class types of women.
If your really, day in and day out treat the crack-ho on the corner with exactly the same respect and deference that you show your female superiors at work...then you are an awesome democratic person, but I find that most of that stuff goes out the window when class comes into it. That's just America after all.
Treating crack-ho with respect huh!
That just happens to be my job at the women's shelter here in down town Vancouver. We have as many as 200 street women go through the shelter during one shift. I treat them with respect, care and I fill their needs. I consider them my sisters and they consider me as one of their sisters, they are humans and they are women, some still having enough dignity and appreciation to say thanks when they leave, just like anyone else they are shown respect.
Cindy
if a guy likes football, and visits football websites often, does that make him a footballer?
she visits those subforums for information and to help others with the knowlage she has. Doesnt mean she has to identify as it.
She has a transsexual past, that much is fact, same with me, but like her, i identify as a WOMAN, full stop, this has had no bearing on my personality, im still me... im still the same girl i was all my life. What we really need to read from her initial post, is NOT 'lawl im not a ->-bleeped-<- anymoreyaboosucks' is 'This is my experience, my life, and my views, im sharing it for informations sake' she is giving an insight into stealth mostly, and how it just doesnt work now. Instead of being disparaging, we should be supportive.
and for a forum that bickers if people dont accept thier view of gender, there is an aweful lot of anger and angst towards those who DONT identify as 'trans' something anymore.... Ghetto mentality tbh.... those who leave are 'letting the side down'
I'm on other trans sites and some get offended when someone else says that transsexualism is a medical condition. Some transfolk DO feel that being trans IS their identity.
Yes, I am a transsexual, I am in the process of transitioning. When I come out the other side, fully transitioned, I don't want to be known as that transguy, but just that guy. Not that I won't be an advocate; I just may do that. But in my day to day life it will be on a need to know basis.
Interesting thread, for sure.
Jay
so if its not medical, its a mental condition?
im afraid weather they like it or not, transsexuality is medical,
ive always found 'trans' as an identity curious.
You never meet folk who identify as liver cancer.
do they build thier identity around that? or is it just a fact of thier life?
Thank you, Rachael, you've understood exactly what I meant to say and corroborated it very well.
There are lots of cancer survivors walking around you see every day that don't feel a need to go around advertising the fact to all and sundry.
Many of their close friends probably know, but never make a big deal of it.
Some of them may find it worthwhile to participate in cancer-survivor and cancer-patient forums to share tips and support. So those who share the similar condition are let in on the fact, in the very apt phrase that Jay used, "on a need to know basis."
A few of them feel it's their calling to become public advocates for cancer research, and may even publicize the fact that they've had cancer as part of their advocacy as if to say, Look, I beat it, let's help others beat it.
Many more than those few will support the cause behind the scenes without going public about it.
But in any case, I really doubt that "cancer survivor" is the primary means of identifying themselves to the world, the first thing they tell you when introducing themselves at a cocktail party, the first line in their Who's Who entry. Except perhaps for those few who devote their lives to full-time advocacy and literally make it their professional career.
And I'm just saying it's all good.
Well ive always considerd transgender an umbrella for the community,
but now, it seems in the uk atleast in the NUS circles, Trans is the umbrella, and 'transgender' is the new transsexual, as well lets face it.... its nothing to do with bloody sex....
TransGENDER is the umbrella term in the U.S. also, covering a wide array of gender variant persons, while TranSEXUAL is used only for those seeking medical correction.
I identify with the term trans fully as that describes me now "in transition".
When I do transition fully though as Jay said I want to be just a guy like any other guy. Because that is what I am, I identify with the male gender identity, I am not androgyne though I think that's awesome and fab, I identify with a gender dammit and that gender is male.
However I don't think I would hide the fact that I had been through transition providing the situation was appropriate of course. It's just as the original poster said, it's really none of anyones business unless I choose to make it there business or in the case of legal or medical necessity.
And I know for sure the trans community will always be a part of my life and I will do whatever I can to support my fellow brothers and sisters and to further our community for the better.
That isn't what I said, Glenda, that isn't where I'm coming from. You're misinterpreting my words. Please knock it off already. Go ahead and express those thoughts all you want, it's fine with me, but please start a different thread in which to say so, because what you're describing is not me.
Just for an update.
Speaking for myself I have been full time for nine years now and was away from the trans everything for 6 years. I was well established in my work as a social worker and was respected for who I am after the first two years adjustment for the folks I associated with everyday. I was living a life as a woman, period. My love and I moved here to Vancouver and I was involved with the Trans suport comunity for a time and then moved on to another pursuit as a Peer Support worker for a local women's shelter.
I still attend the suport group meeting for TS every second week or so, but I am no longer engaged in any other enterprise. I also run two meetup groups in Surrey twice a month, one an all women's group and the other is a mixed group. At home I spend some time on a Yahoo Groups of my own and this board. Only this board and the TS suport group know about my TS history. So it can be done, call it stealth or just plain living as myself.
Cindy
Once again another susans topic goes madly off the rails....
Guys, dolls, and things.... Hypatia is NOT saying she is 'normal' and you are weird, and wants nothing to do with you. Please read her post's WORDS before fyling into a blind rage at the thought of someone wanting to not be part of the wonderful ->-bleeped-<-gasm of an idenity you may love.
News flash....
Some do not like the fact they were born transsexual.
I happen to share this feeling, and unlike milliontoone, i have never identified as anything but a girl. Yeah, i transitioned, yeah, 'technically' im whatever label you want to use under the sun, but My identity, why i transitioned in the first place is female. end of.... I dont get this 'i identify as a man before, transgender during and woman after' mlarkey... heck, why would your identity change?
Transition happened yes. but do you see people with say... diabetes identifying as 'glucose intollerant' becase they are? no, they identify as the man or woman they were before... thats what this community misses... it focuses too much on gender as being a core part of ones identity... being almost all there is to an identity tbh... the whole trans community as a group puts too high a significance on gender...
Guys, get out... There is so much this community ignores from identity... they ignore musical taste, friends, hobbies.... heck half the time it seems this is most's hobby....
in the words of a wise man:
Choose life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a f**king big television, Choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players, and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol and dental insurance. Choose fixed- interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisure wear and matching luggage. Choose a three piece suite on hire purchase in a range of f**king fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing sprit- crushing game shows, stuffing ->-bleeped-<-ing junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing you last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, f**ked-up brats you have spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that?
Go fishing? ;D
Cindy
Quote from: Rachael on October 21, 2008, 06:55:58 AM
so if its not medical, its a mental condition?
im afraid weather they like it or not, transsexuality is medical,
ive always found 'trans' as an identity curious.
You never meet folk who identify as liver cancer.
\
FROM NOW ON I WANNA BE CALLED FIBROBOY BECAUSE THAT IS MY IDE NTIYY
uh. I have a fever. That may not be as funny as I think it is.
It is funny, Fibroboy. :laugh:
I identify as a woman. A woman is what I am, and I haven't even gone full-time yet. I've been in a male body for about 25 years, but I can't say I was really male. It was just a physical trait and had little to do with who I really am.
I call myself a transwoman some of the time, but only to people I'm out to (and almost no one knows me as male, they know me either as a woman or a transwoman), and usually only when what I'm saying pertains to my trans status. I avoid the term transsexual because of the "sexual" in it, but it has nothing to do with thinking people who specifically identify as "transsexual" are sexual deviants or some such. It's just a matter of linguistics. Transsexual is a misnomer. Despite the tendency to use the word "sex" to refer to a person's gender, that term also carries with it the implication of sexual activity, which is completely unrelated to what I am, and I believe, to what most people here are.
Transgender, in my view, is a far more appropriate term, regardless of the intent of the person who coined the term.
However, I rarely use that term either. I, personally, prefer to just use the terms transwomen and transmen, if I'm going to refer to trans status at all. They are very accurate terms. They call the person by their correct gender, but also acknowledge their dysphoric past.
I was going somewhere with this post, but I've forgotten where that was. ;D
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 26, 2008, 02:03:55 PM
I identify as a woman. A woman is what I am, and I haven't even gone full-time yet. I've been in a male body for about 25 years, but I can't say I was really male. It was just a physical trait and had little to do with who I really am.
I call myself a transwoman some of the time, but only to people I'm out to (and almost no one knows me as male, they know me either as a woman or a transwoman), and usually only when what I'm saying pertains to my trans status. I avoid the term transsexual because of the "sexual" in it, but it has nothing to do with thinking people who specifically identify as "transsexual" are sexual deviants or some such. It's just a matter of linguistics. Transsexual is a misnomer. Despite the tendency to use the word "sex" to refer to a person's gender, that term also carries with it the implication of sexual activity, which is completely unrelated to what I am, and I believe, to what most people here are.
Transgender, in my view, is a far more appropriate term, regardless of the intent of the person who coined the term.
However, I rarely use that term either. I, personally, prefer to just use the terms transwomen and transmen, if I'm going to refer to trans status at all. They are very accurate terms. They call the person by their correct gender, but also acknowledge their dysphoric past.
I was going somewhere with this post, but I've forgotten where that was. ;D
Well FWIW Miz Katrina, I agree-- I'm a guy first and only a transman where medical or political things come into play. Never Transsexual because while I find gender transgression attractive, transness is NOT transgressive, it's reparative.
Posted on: October 26, 2008, 12:33:14 pm
Quote from: Hypatia on October 26, 2008, 12:36:38 PM
It is funny, Fibroboy. :laugh:
*dons a tee shirt with a giant F on it, ties a cheap rectangle of flammable nylon to the back of a wheelchair, inserts a pillow and sits on it*
STOP OR I'LL....zzzz
So....... princess katrina, you're saying that trans people who know you are trans people DONT view you as female? they view you as transwoman, so you identify as that?
Um.
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 26, 2008, 02:03:55 PM
Transgender, in my view, is a far more appropriate term, regardless of the intent of the person who coined the term.
Well, for me I changed (
trans) my physical sex (
sexual), not my gender, so
transsexual is accurate for myself. When I hear
transgender, I think of people who challenge or cross the gender binary in some way, whereas I'm actually doing everything possible to conform to it.
Even so, I'm only a
transsexual in a scientific sense. I never *tell* anyone
"I'm a transsexual," or for that matter a
transwoman. I mostly just say,
"Hi, I'm Kate!" :)
~Kate~
The only term I have ever been really comfortable with was used by Harry Benjamin in the early 1960's: "complete psycho-sexual inversion". Described me to a T (pun intended!)
Quote from: Northern Jane on October 27, 2008, 08:38:03 AM
The only term I have ever been really comfortable with was used by Harry Benjamin in the early 1960's: "complete psycho-sexual inversion". Described me to a T (pun intended!)
Well, I don't consider myself a
transsexual in the sense of it being a diagnosis. I just see it as a literal description of what I've done (changed sexes). Whether or not I'm a "classic transsexual" in the sense of doing it for the right reasons, having a female brain, being a "woman inside," and so on... is all a rather moot point now, lol.
It always WAS a moot point actually, as however you wanna "explain" my need, whether from satanic possession, sexual deviancy, or being female-brained... the absolute, 24/7 never-gonna-leave-me-alone need to transition would have tortured me until the day I died.
~Kate~
I haven't heard anyone address my by the label transsexual since after the first two years of my transitioning. People in that little town knew about me, of course they did but after those first two years people got use to me and I kind of just blended into the wood work so to speak. I was no longer a new novelty for those with telephonitis, so they moved onto a new victim.
I never really heard about that word again until 8 years later when I rediscovered Susan's and rejoined after 7 years of being away. People in the outside world referred to me as Cindy, her she mam she, etc. When my love Wing Walker and I moved here to Vancouver a years ago there was not a soul who knew us as anything else except as who we present as and I haven't offered any information otherwise except at the TS support groups which we attend occasionally more or like to keep our foot in the door in-case we can be of assistance at some time in the future.
I am only transsexual technically in the medical scientific sense, hmmm I like that. ;D Yea it certainly makes sense, the body's parts that weren't congruent with who we are were permuted, so the label of the physical disorder no longer applies. After nine years I feel like I was always the me I am now with only memories of not being right before.
Kate I left a message for you in the; How Did You Cope Topic.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,46326.new.html#new (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,46326.new.html#new)
Cindy
Quote from: Kate on October 27, 2008, 08:32:03 AMWhen I hear transgender, I think of people who challenge or cross the gender binary in some way, whereas I'm actually doing everything possible to conform to it.
Exactly. And I think it's very often understood in that sense as the primary meaning, a synonym for genderqueer. Which is another reason I avoid it. Julia Serano has written on the recent trend that prefers genderqueer masculinity while devaluing transsexual womanhood. She rightly criticizes this as a form of misogyny.
QuoteEven so, I'm only a transsexual in a scientific sense. I never *tell* anyone "I'm a transsexual," or for that matter a transwoman. I mostly just say, "Hi, I'm Kate!" :)
Right on, Kate. Very well said.
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 26, 2008, 08:38:16 AM
FROM NOW ON I WANNA BE CALLED FIBROBOY BECAUSE THAT IS MY IDE NTIYY
uh. I have a fever. That may not be as funny as I think it is.
Some people with fibromyalgia identify as people with disabilities.
The reason they identify as PWD is because having a disability frequently has social consequences, just as being trans does.
Quote from: Kate on October 27, 2008, 08:32:03 AM
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 26, 2008, 02:03:55 PM
Transgender, in my view, is a far more appropriate term, regardless of the intent of the person who coined the term.
Well, for me I changed (trans) my physical sex (sexual), not my gender, so transsexual is accurate for myself. When I hear transgender, I think of people who challenge or cross the gender binary in some way, whereas I'm actually doing everything possible to conform to it.
Even so, I'm only a transsexual in a scientific sense. I never *tell* anyone "I'm a transsexual," or for that matter a transwoman. I mostly just say, "Hi, I'm Kate!" :)
~Kate~
A distinction between "sex" and "gender" in the form of "sex refers to the physical" and "gender refers to identity/mental state/soul/however-you-want-to-call-it" is something that's only come about in the past half century and is something I really only see among the trans community. Outside of our community, the more traditional "sex = gender" semantics are still the primary way the words are defined.
There is some logic in associating the word sex with the physical since sexual intercourse is considered a physical thing as well, but it still does not remove the simple
fact that the word sex, especially in the form of sex
ual has a strong
sexual connotation, in regards to sexual intercourse. It works fine for homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual, etc. because those terms have to do with sexual intercourse. Gender Identity really has nothing to do with
sex, though, and neither do our transitions. So while we
can apply our own unique-ish definition to "sex" to define physical gender and gender identity separately, we are applying a label with [typically] negative connotation to ourselves.
It is far more appropriate to use the term transgender in reference to ourselves, and then use terms like "gender identity" and "physical gender" to distinguish the two concepts. Not only are those terms more obvious in their meanings, even to those not familiar with our community's connotative definitions of "sex vs gender," but they completely eliminate the potentially negative connotations of mixing sex with what we are.
Quote from: Lisa Harney on October 28, 2008, 07:10:38 PM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 26, 2008, 08:38:16 AM
FROM NOW ON I WANNA BE CALLED FIBROBOY BECAUSE THAT IS MY IDE NTIYY
uh. I have a fever. That may not be as funny as I think it is.
Some people with fibromyalgia identify as people with disabilities.
The reason they identify as PWD is because having a disability frequently has social consequences, just as being trans does.
i guess if i *let* it "have" me. I live the social consequences, believe me (poverty, reduced social activity etc). But I am first and foremost myself. Always. Eff anyone who sticks their labels of whatever sort on me. :D Pleased to meet you.
Quote from: Rachael on October 26, 2008, 04:39:58 PM
So....... princess katrina, you're saying that trans people who know you are trans people DONT view you as female? they view you as transwoman, so you identify as that?
Um.
First off, your reply makes very little sense.
However, yes, anyone who is aware that I'm a
transwoman and not a genetic female will see me differently than if they were unaware that I began life with a male body. This is not an inherently negative thing, but it is a fact. It is impossible for there not to be a variation in how they view me once they have that knowledge as opposed to prior to having that knowledge.
It paints an entirely different picture to know me as one or the other. To those who believe I'm a genetic female, I grew up as the lesbian daughter of a Baptist Pastor in Texas. That sounds pretty dang complicated, troublesome, and potentially traumatic. To those who know I'm a transwoman, one would wonder why it would've been at all a problem for me to grow up as an apparent "straight boy." I had the freedom to pursue girls that I never would've had if I'd been a genetic female. I had around 30 girlfriends, starting with my first one around age 6, and going up until about age 20, and that's not counting my girl friends. If I tell someone who sees me as a genetic female, the daughter of a Baptist Pastor in Texas, that's going to be a real shocker. If I tell that to someone who knows I'm trans...well, it's still a bit of a "shocker" due to the #, but it's certainly more believable to people that a boy had those girlfriends rather than a girl. I had sleepovers with boys rather frequently, even into my early teens. We'd even sleep in the same bed. I've told that to people who believe I'm a genetic girl before, and they're always rather shocked that a Baptist Pastor let his 10- to 14-year-old daughter share a bed with a 12- to 14-year-old male on numerous occasions and without adult supervision.
My past, which is a definite part of who I am and how I became who I am (in every way other than my gender identity and sexual orientation, anyway), takes on different significances and meanings based on whether you view it as a male growing up, a girl in a male body growing up, or a girl in a girl body growing up. And, in some ways,
all three of those views really need to be taken into account to get a 100% accurate of how I came to be the Princess you know today.
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 12:31:07 AM
A distinction between "sex" and "gender" in the form of "sex refers to the physical" and "gender refers to identity/mental state/soul/however-you-want-to-call-it" is something that's only come about in the past half century and is something I really only see among the trans community. Outside of our community, the more traditional "sex = gender" semantics are still the primary way the words are defined.
Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:01:14 AM
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 12:31:07 AM
A distinction between "sex" and "gender" in the form of "sex refers to the physical" and "gender refers to identity/mental state/soul/however-you-want-to-call-it" is something that's only come about in the past half century and is something I really only see among the trans community. Outside of our community, the more traditional "sex = gender" semantics are still the primary way the words are defined.
Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.
I would guess, from what you said, that you're referring to other languages? Otherwise, I have no clue what you mean.
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 01:36:28 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:01:14 AM
Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.
I would guess, from what you said, that you're referring to other languages? Otherwise, I have no clue what you mean.
Kathoey are considered, in their own language, to be either a third gender or "another kind of woman". Some do HRT and the like.
Fa'fatime are similar but no hrt
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:43:54 AM
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 01:36:28 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:01:14 AM
Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.
I would guess, from what you said, that you're referring to other languages? Otherwise, I have no clue what you mean.
Kathoey are considered, in their own language, to be either a third gender or "another kind of woman". Some do HRT and the like.
Fa'fatime are similar but no hrt
Then that sounds more like words for "transwomen" or "eunuchs" than using "sex" and "gender" to refer to the difference between psychological gender and physical gender.
Interesting, boy talk about looking at oneself in the third person. But then I use to do that all the time when I played with my imaginary friends when I was a kid. "Eh!", well, I was a loner and often lonely, back then, so I invented my own friends, usually a girl. So there was lots of third person roll playing. Now if this doesn't make any sense, this message will self district before your finished reading it. ;D
Cindy
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 12:40:40 AM
i guess if i *let* it "have" me. I live the social consequences, believe me (poverty, reduced social activity etc). But I am first and foremost myself. Always. Eff anyone who sticks their labels of whatever sort on me. :D Pleased to meet you.
I don't think anyone I know who identifies as a PWD identifies themselves as their disability rather than themselves. Rather, the identification comes from the social consequences they have in common - much like people who identify as trans, as women, as people of color, and so on.
I'm kind of confused as to why anyone in this thread thinks that someone who identifies hirself as trans must necessarily see "trans" as the defining element of hir identity, though. Lots of trans people have been through similar experiences in terms of being trans in a society that largely wishes we didn't exist as well as transitioning from one sex to another in that society. I'm not sure how it's unusual or strange for anyone to find community or identity this way. I'm not sure how such identities become superficial labels to others? I'm especially not sure how identification as trans somehow delegitimizes any trans person's identity as man or woman.
Posted on: October 29, 2008, 07:08:43 am
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 12:31:07 AM
It is far more appropriate to use the term transgender in reference to ourselves, and then use terms like "gender identity" and "physical gender" to distinguish the two concepts. Not only are those terms more obvious in their meanings, even to those not familiar with our community's connotative definitions of "sex vs gender," but they completely eliminate the potentially negative connotations of mixing sex with what we are.
It sounds like you're positioning the idea of "sex" and "sexuality" as kind of shameful and want to distance yourself from the idea that being a man or a woman has sexual connotations, which I find kind of strange.
Also, I don't think that "transgender" is descriptive of my experiences at all. I didn't change my gender. My gender has been stable since I was four years old. My sex, however, has changed. Transsexual works fine for me, or trans. I use "transgender" because people think that's what to call us and it takes up too much energy to try to constantly make that distinction... but I still believe in that distinction.
You confuse her meaning.... she is not distancing herself for her sake, but for the sake of jo retard public that THINKS transsexual is somehow sex related.
The fun thing about labels... only others read them...
Quote from: Rachael on October 29, 2008, 07:15:47 AM
You confuse her meaning.... she is not distancing herself for her sake, but for the sake of jo retard public that THINKS transsexual is somehow sex related.
Well, Joe R. Public also tends to think "woman" means "incompetent" and "not as smart," but I'm not distancing myself from that either ;)
~Kate~
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 02:16:38 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:43:54 AM
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 01:36:28 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:01:14 AM
Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.
I would guess, from what you said, that you're referring to other languages? Otherwise, I have no clue what you mean.
Kathoey are considered, in their own language, to be either a third gender or "another kind of woman". Some do HRT and the like.
Fa'fatime are similar but no hrt
Then that sounds more like words for "transwomen" or "eunuchs" than using "sex" and "gender" to refer to the difference between psychological gender and physical gender.
Very much no. Did you read what i said? You see, they're from totally different cultures and like i said they're not so "shocking" there (why do you think Thailand is one of the places so many go?). How do you think things got so advanced there? Because it's not "shocking" or "sick" to the larger culture.
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 09:39:35 AM
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 02:16:38 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:43:54 AM
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 01:36:28 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:01:14 AM
Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.
I would guess, from what you said, that you're referring to other languages? Otherwise, I have no clue what you mean.
Kathoey are considered, in their own language, to be either a third gender or "another kind of woman". Some do HRT and the like.
Fa'fatime are similar but no hrt
Then that sounds more like words for "transwomen" or "eunuchs" than using "sex" and "gender" to refer to the difference between psychological gender and physical gender.
Very much no. Did you read what i said? You see, they're from totally different cultures and like i said they're not so "shocking" there (why do you think Thailand is one of the places so many go?). How do you think things got so advanced there? Because it's not "shocking" or "sick" to the larger culture.
Cultural commentary aside, you are completely and entirely missing the point of discussion here.
A term for another gender besides male and female is no different than the term "transgender" or "transsexual." Eunuchs are also at times looked at as being a "third" type of gender, being considered neither male nor female.
However, that is NOT the terminology in question here. The terms being discussed are the words "sex" and "gender" and what they mean.
Look up "sex" and "gender" in the dictionary. The definition of Gender is Sex. The two terms are synonymous. The
connotation that "sex" specifically refers to physical status and "gender" specifically refers to mental identity is something we in the transgender community have made up in order to try and explain what we are to others.
However, it would be
far more appropriate to just use the terms "physical gender" and "gender identity" to distinguish between those two very aspects, and stick with the term "transgender."
Anyone who says "I did not change my gender; I changed my sex" is contradicting themselves, unless they choose to use the romance novel definition of sex in which case it would specifically mean "genitalia," but that's still using the connotative definitions of what is effectively a subculture.
I'm sorry, but it really does not matter how you
prefer to say things, from a purely linguistic standpoint, trans
gender is more accurate than trans
sexual. On top of that, there's the ability to avoid
other people's negative connotations by eliminating the word "sex" from the whole situation.
Hell, if anything, transsexual would be a logical term for a "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-," though at this point in time it would be rather complicated to try and shift the usages of words to reflect that.
QuoteIt sounds like you're positioning the idea of "sex" and "sexuality" as kind of shameful
I don't consider sex or sexuality to be at all shameful. Quite the contrary. However, being a transwoman or a transman has absolutely nothing to do with sexuality beyond dictating how your sexual orientation is labelled, and that doesn't even really have to do with being a transwoman or transman. It just has to do with whether you have a male gender identity or a female gender identity. We don't transition for sexual reasons (though I won't deny that I have no interest in having sex as a male).
The issue is merely that there are massive negative connotations with sexuality, especially any kind of possibly "abnormal" sexuality, among the general populace. Keeping ourselves distinct and separate would do a lot to help curb negative stereotyping of our community. Just the fact that people say "Transsexual" to refer to us tends to bring a negative image to mind upon first hearing it. I know it did for me when I first heard the term years ago, before I ever learned what that really is, and I've always been rather open sexually.
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 03:55:41 PM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 09:39:35 AM
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 02:16:38 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:43:54 AM
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 01:36:28 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:01:14 AM
Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.
I would guess, from what you said, that you're referring to other languages? Otherwise, I have no clue what you mean.
Kathoey are considered, in their own language, to be either a third gender or "another kind of woman". Some do HRT and the like.
Fa'fatime are similar but no hrt
Then that sounds more like words for "transwomen" or "eunuchs" than using "sex" and "gender" to refer to the difference between psychological gender and physical gender.
Very much no. Did you read what i said? You see, they're from totally different cultures and like i said they're not so "shocking" there (why do you think Thailand is one of the places so many go?). How do you think things got so advanced there? Because it's not "shocking" or "sick" to the larger culture.
Cultural commentary aside, you are completely and entirely missing the point of discussion here.
A term for another gender besides male and female is no different than the term "transgender" or "transsexual." Eunuchs are also at times looked at as being a "third" type of gender, being considered neither male nor female.
However, that is NOT the terminology in question here. The terms being discussed are the words "sex" and "gender" and what they mean.
Look up "sex" and "gender" in the dictionary. The definition of Gender is Sex. The two terms are synonymous. The connotation that "sex" specifically refers to physical status and "gender" specifically refers to mental identity is something we in the transgender community have made up in order to try and explain what we are to others.
However, it would be far more appropriate to just use the terms "physical gender" and "gender identity" to distinguish between those two very aspects, and stick with the term "transgender."
Anyone who says "I did not change my gender; I changed my sex" is contradicting themselves, unless they choose to use the romance novel definition of sex in which case it would specifically mean "genitalia," but that's still using the connotative definitions of what is effectively a subculture.
I'm sorry, but it really does not matter how you prefer to say things, from a purely linguistic standpoint, transgender is more accurate than transsexual. On top of that, there's the ability to avoid other people's negative connotations by eliminating the word "sex" from the whole situation.
Hell, if anything, transsexual would be a logical term for a "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-," though at this point in time it would be rather complicated to try and shift the usages of words to reflect that.
QuoteIt sounds like you're positioning the idea of "sex" and "sexuality" as kind of shameful
I don't consider sex or sexuality to be at all shameful. Quite the contrary. However, being a transwoman or a transman has absolutely nothing to do with sexuality beyond dictating how your sexual orientation is labelled, and that doesn't even really have to do with being a transwoman or transman. It just has to do with whether you have a male gender identity or a female gender identity. We don't transition for sexual reasons (though I won't deny that I have no interest in having sex as a male).
The issue is merely that there are massive negative connotations with sexuality, especially any kind of possibly "abnormal" sexuality, among the general populace. Keeping ourselves distinct and separate would do a lot to help curb negative stereotyping of our community. Just the fact that people say "Transsexual" to refer to us tends to bring a negative image to mind upon first hearing it. I know it did for me when I first heard the term years ago, before I ever learned what that really is, and I've always been rather open sexually.
Noooo, MY point in mentioning these two examples (of which of course there are many more) is that it is NOT a universal that physical sex = social gender. The accepted presence of nonbinary persons indicates a sociocultural possibility of separation. Hell here in the states, the First Peoples have a concept called "two-spirit" and it is again, not the same as WASP conceptions of transgender, but a pretty acceptable part of a person who lives between genders or in a state of "psycho-sexual inversion." It cannot be the same because the culture is different.
PS I like the "transsexual should mean ->-bleeped-<--->-bleeped-<-" bit that was BRILL.
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 05:31:02 PM
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 03:55:41 PM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 09:39:35 AM
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 02:16:38 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:43:54 AM
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 01:36:28 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:01:14 AM
Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.
I would guess, from what you said, that you're referring to other languages? Otherwise, I have no clue what you mean.
Kathoey are considered, in their own language, to be either a third gender or "another kind of woman". Some do HRT and the like.
Fa'fatime are similar but no hrt
Then that sounds more like words for "transwomen" or "eunuchs" than using "sex" and "gender" to refer to the difference between psychological gender and physical gender.
Very much no. Did you read what i said? You see, they're from totally different cultures and like i said they're not so "shocking" there (why do you think Thailand is one of the places so many go?). How do you think things got so advanced there? Because it's not "shocking" or "sick" to the larger culture.
Cultural commentary aside, you are completely and entirely missing the point of discussion here.
A term for another gender besides male and female is no different than the term "transgender" or "transsexual." Eunuchs are also at times looked at as being a "third" type of gender, being considered neither male nor female.
However, that is NOT the terminology in question here. The terms being discussed are the words "sex" and "gender" and what they mean.
Look up "sex" and "gender" in the dictionary. The definition of Gender is Sex. The two terms are synonymous. The connotation that "sex" specifically refers to physical status and "gender" specifically refers to mental identity is something we in the transgender community have made up in order to try and explain what we are to others.
However, it would be far more appropriate to just use the terms "physical gender" and "gender identity" to distinguish between those two very aspects, and stick with the term "transgender."
Anyone who says "I did not change my gender; I changed my sex" is contradicting themselves, unless they choose to use the romance novel definition of sex in which case it would specifically mean "genitalia," but that's still using the connotative definitions of what is effectively a subculture.
I'm sorry, but it really does not matter how you prefer to say things, from a purely linguistic standpoint, transgender is more accurate than transsexual. On top of that, there's the ability to avoid other people's negative connotations by eliminating the word "sex" from the whole situation.
Hell, if anything, transsexual would be a logical term for a "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-," though at this point in time it would be rather complicated to try and shift the usages of words to reflect that.
QuoteIt sounds like you're positioning the idea of "sex" and "sexuality" as kind of shameful
I don't consider sex or sexuality to be at all shameful. Quite the contrary. However, being a transwoman or a transman has absolutely nothing to do with sexuality beyond dictating how your sexual orientation is labelled, and that doesn't even really have to do with being a transwoman or transman. It just has to do with whether you have a male gender identity or a female gender identity. We don't transition for sexual reasons (though I won't deny that I have no interest in having sex as a male).
The issue is merely that there are massive negative connotations with sexuality, especially any kind of possibly "abnormal" sexuality, among the general populace. Keeping ourselves distinct and separate would do a lot to help curb negative stereotyping of our community. Just the fact that people say "Transsexual" to refer to us tends to bring a negative image to mind upon first hearing it. I know it did for me when I first heard the term years ago, before I ever learned what that really is, and I've always been rather open sexually.
Noooo, MY point in mentioning these two examples (of which of course there are many more) is that it is NOT a universal that physical sex = social gender. The accepted presence of nonbinary persons indicates a sociocultural possibility of separation. Hell here in the states, the First Peoples have a concept called "two-spirit" and it is again, not the same as WASP conceptions of transgender, but a pretty acceptable part of a person who lives between genders or in a state of "psycho-sexual inversion." It cannot be the same because the culture is different.
PS I like the "transsexual should mean ->-bleeped-<--->-bleeped-<-" bit that was BRILL.
Okay, but what you're talking about still has nothing to do with "physical gender vs gender identity." What you're talking about are terms that refer to an alternative combination of "physical gender" and "gender identity" just as "transwoman" and "transman" refer to an alternative combination other than female identity in genetically female body and male identity in genetically male body.
It has nothing to do with whether or not the word "sex" is synonymous with the word "gender." Even in your "the point . . . is that it is NOT a universal that physical sex = social gender," you're acknowledging the fact that sex and gender
are synonymous without appropriate qualifiers (physical, social).
Well, I am wayyyyy lost. But then I didn't even know what transsexual was until 12 years ago. I didn't even know about all the gender variants under the umbrella of transgender, until just recently and I only know or have an idea of about maybe three of them. Although I have no problems talking with anyone I will talk to just about anyone I meet, including Satan. I talked to anyone both on the web and in person until just recently. I know I'm not senile, maybe just still a little naive. Have you never heard of a 63 year old naive lady before? I am certainly a country gal, I can be child like sometimes, but I am not no dummy, either. When I was in college my IQ tested at 170 but then that was 40 years ago, and maybe one's brain shrinks over time.
Now could someone explain to me what this is about a 3rd gender, sex, or whatever? I have been getting a headache as it is from trying to wrap my brain around all the gender variants under the transgender banner. I have come to learn through the years that there is the male sex, usually associated to the penis and the male gender usually associated to the physical male body. That would go the same for women.
Where does this third sex or third gender come in? Has someone been having sex with aliens from the Beetleguisian star system again?
Well I am partly just kiddin', *but would someone please throw me a life preserver in this gendersexsea?*
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on October 30, 2008, 02:22:19 AM
Well, I am wayyyyy lost. But then I didn't even know what transsexual was until 12 years ago. I didn't even know about all the gender variants under the umbrella of transgender, until just recently and I only know or have an idea of about maybe three of them. Although I have no problems talking with anyone I will talk to just about anyone I meet, including Satan. I talked to anyone both on the web and in person until just recently. I know I'm not senile, maybe just still a little naive. Have you never heard of a 63 year old naive lady before? I am certainly a country gal, I can be child like sometimes, but I am not no dummy, either. When I was in college my IQ tested at 170 but then that was 40 years ago, and maybe one's brain shrinks over time.
Now could someone explain to me what this is about a 3rd gender, sex, or whatever? I have been getting a headache as it is from trying to wrap my brain around all the gender variants under the transgender banner. I have come to learn through the years that there is the male sex, usually associated to the penis and the male gender usually associated to the physical male body. That would go the same for women.
Where does this third sex or third gender come in? Has someone been having sex with aliens from the Beetleguisian star system again?
Well I am partly just kiddin', *but would someone please throw me a life preserver in this gendersexsea?*
Cindy
Heehee, the "third sex" being referred to in those other cultures is effectively just a eunuch, though some do include HRT to give female characteristics, and are often revered by local custom or religion (that's how it is in Hindu, at least). I've never really bothered checking up on the details enough to see just how closely the ideas relate to the typical modern day transgender man or woman (which is something I think we'd also have to look to the origins of the idea to determine). As far as I'm aware, though, they pretty much only occur in the MTF style. I've never heard of FTMs in this setup.
Frankly, I consider the view flawed, in part because it does seem to omit FTMs, but also because I am not some other gender besides male and female. I am a female. My anatomy is just a tad screwed up.
I'm also, personally, a tad annoyed with our community's seeming obsession with the concepts of Eunuchs. There may have been those among Eunuchs who were basically MTFs, and that is indicated by a certain group within Hindu culture, but the assumption that all Eunuchs were MTFs is absurd. A Eunuch, by definition, is a
male who has been castrated, often because he is going to be the guard or servant of a female, and the people "employing" him do not want him tempted by her. If others, like us, managed to "slip under the radar" by becoming Eunuchs, okay; but that doesn't give any validity to saying we and Eunuchs are the same thing. Frankly,
I find it rather insulting since that implies that I am (or will be) nothing more than a castrated male.
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 10:43:13 PM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 05:31:02 PM
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 03:55:41 PM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 09:39:35 AM
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 02:16:38 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:43:54 AM
Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 01:36:28 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:01:14 AM
Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.
I would guess, from what you said, that you're referring to other languages? Otherwise, I have no clue what you mean.
Kathoey are considered, in their own language, to be either a third gender or "another kind of woman". Some do HRT and the like.
Fa'fatime are similar but no hrt
Then that sounds more like words for "transwomen" or "eunuchs" than using "sex" and "gender" to refer to the difference between psychological gender and physical gender.
Very much no. Did you read what i said? You see, they're from totally different cultures and like i said they're not so "shocking" there (why do you think Thailand is one of the places so many go?). How do you think things got so advanced there? Because it's not "shocking" or "sick" to the larger culture.
Cultural commentary aside, you are completely and entirely missing the point of discussion here.
A term for another gender besides male and female is no different than the term "transgender" or "transsexual." Eunuchs are also at times looked at as being a "third" type of gender, being considered neither male nor female.
However, that is NOT the terminology in question here. The terms being discussed are the words "sex" and "gender" and what they mean.
Look up "sex" and "gender" in the dictionary. The definition of Gender is Sex. The two terms are synonymous. The connotation that "sex" specifically refers to physical status and "gender" specifically refers to mental identity is something we in the transgender community have made up in order to try and explain what we are to others.
However, it would be far more appropriate to just use the terms "physical gender" and "gender identity" to distinguish between those two very aspects, and stick with the term "transgender."
Anyone who says "I did not change my gender; I changed my sex" is contradicting themselves, unless they choose to use the romance novel definition of sex in which case it would specifically mean "genitalia," but that's still using the connotative definitions of what is effectively a subculture.
I'm sorry, but it really does not matter how you prefer to say things, from a purely linguistic standpoint, transgender is more accurate than transsexual. On top of that, there's the ability to avoid other people's negative connotations by eliminating the word "sex" from the whole situation.
Hell, if anything, transsexual would be a logical term for a "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-," though at this point in time it would be rather complicated to try and shift the usages of words to reflect that.
QuoteIt sounds like you're positioning the idea of "sex" and "sexuality" as kind of shameful
I don't consider sex or sexuality to be at all shameful. Quite the contrary. However, being a transwoman or a transman has absolutely nothing to do with sexuality beyond dictating how your sexual orientation is labelled, and that doesn't even really have to do with being a transwoman or transman. It just has to do with whether you have a male gender identity or a female gender identity. We don't transition for sexual reasons (though I won't deny that I have no interest in having sex as a male).
The issue is merely that there are massive negative connotations with sexuality, especially any kind of possibly "abnormal" sexuality, among the general populace. Keeping ourselves distinct and separate would do a lot to help curb negative stereotyping of our community. Just the fact that people say "Transsexual" to refer to us tends to bring a negative image to mind upon first hearing it. I know it did for me when I first heard the term years ago, before I ever learned what that really is, and I've always been rather open sexually.
Noooo, MY point in mentioning these two examples (of which of course there are many more) is that it is NOT a universal that physical sex = social gender. The accepted presence of nonbinary persons indicates a sociocultural possibility of separation. Hell here in the states, the First Peoples have a concept called "two-spirit" and it is again, not the same as WASP conceptions of transgender, but a pretty acceptable part of a person who lives between genders or in a state of "psycho-sexual inversion." It cannot be the same because the culture is different.
PS I like the "transsexual should mean ->-bleeped-<--->-bleeped-<-" bit that was BRILL.
Look just forget it. I'm DONE with this conversation---done with repeatedly being told i'm saying what i'm not saying and all that load of crap. It's really disrespectful. You can win and feel you're triumphant at the expense of undermining your understanding of the world and your social position here in the states. Enjoy it.
You bring some interesting points, to bad we couldn't go in one day a man or woman and come out just the opposite with the history to match our tail
Hi, Princess, Thank you for the break down. It's making a wee bit more sense now. Eunuch = castrated male, made so for the purpose to work as servants of women, period, that's it. For the exception of the possible few that may have been truly trans. Unable to have an erection? I'm not even certain about that, either. But anyway, IMHO, we, as transsexuals, whether by literal castration or chemical castration, are castrated by choice and for all intents and purposes we are desiring the end result, to be female, with intent to be as female as possible. Our whole life centers around that desire, and again, as far as I'm concerned, once we cross the SRS line, that finalises the deal, the point of no return, we are women, heart and soul.
A lot of difference I would say. So F-M is for the purpose of becoming as congruently male as they can be and M-F is with all intents and purposes to be as congruently female as can be.
Cindy
Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 30, 2008, 11:56:53 AMLook just forget it. I'm DONE with this conversation---done with repeatedly being told i'm saying what i'm not saying and all that load of crap. It's really disrespectful. You can win and feel you're triumphant at the expense of undermining your understanding of the world and your social position here in the states. Enjoy it.
What the
hell is your problem? I'm not being the least bit disrespectful. You are talking about cultural concepts of a third gender, separate from male and female.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the terms sex and gender. If you can't comprehend that, I'm sorry, but don't go around bitching about someone being disrespectful just because they point out that your little "point" doesn't actually pertain to the discussion that was going on.
Your little bit of input was just mentioning a term that can go into the list with male and female,
not what the definitions of "sex" and "gender" are. The discussion never had
anything to do with culture, in the US or anywhere else in the world, and everything to do
purely with the
English language and its terms. The issue
might translate into some other European languages, but since non-European languages most definitely do not use the words "sex" and "gender," but rather have their own distinct words that are likely not even used congruently the way those two are in English.
So, how about you give me an apology for that accusation about being disrespectful, as well as an apology for your whiny little "You can win and feel triumphant" BS, okay?
Okay, guys, I hate to put on the mod gloves here but can we try and turn the heat down on this thread a little?
*breaks out the ice packs*
If you have an issue with each other, maybe it would best be resolved through PM rather than open warfare on the public forums. People don't come here for hostility, they come for support and don't need to see members at each other's throats. :-\
Either that or just agree to disagree and move past this.
Thank you.
I agree with Leiandra, Hey if you all wanna PM me I would be more then happy to do my best to mediate something that can be agreed upon with all parties huh? Hey may even give me an opportunity to learn more about what has been hotly discussed in the past few post where I kind of got lost on. I know what Leianrda is sayin though, I own my own group, it's an Empaths group and i have a couple of the girls from her drop by sometimes. But I truly totally hate it when I have to give some one the royal boot, don't happen often thank goodness. I do much better at meditating.
Cindy
The fight is over a tangential question, not the actual substance of the OP. I hope the thread doesn't get locked, so please make peace, lady and gentleman. If it has to get locked, I would prefer at least it be for a fight over the main topic. :)
Quote from: Hypatia on October 13, 2008, 07:59:16 PM
However. I have real difficulty seeing how crossdressers and I can fit into the same category. Our issues are completely different. I support transgender rights as a matter of principle, because it's the right thing to do, the same as many non-transgender people support them as allies. I am not putting down crossdressers by defining the vast differences between us.
Hypatia, I couldn't agree more. I have nothing in common with crossdressers. They are males. I have even less than nothing in common with drag queens. They are gay males. I do not like it when they appear at support group meetings for trans people, and having no desire to transition.
It goes like this: Q: "How do you tell the difference between a crossdresser and a trans woman?"
A: "A crossdresser cannot wait to get home and put on his bra. A trans woman cannot wait to get home and take her bra off".
"Hee, hee, hee, hee." I don't go around telling everyone I am Lesbian but then if someone said I had to pick a label, I would say Lesbian. Otherwise, to everyone I associate with through the day in the outside world, I am just a woman but I do looooove getting hugged by a guy. There is something special about that, but then I ain't met anyone from either sex that didn't like me. :D
Cindy
I like being called transgender...it makes me sound unique in a good way, I always felt. But I also like being known as a woman, or a transwoman....that what I am, afterall. I just don't like when ppl lump TGs into the gay, lesbian, and bi category. I have the mind of a female, and am attracted to males, so I am strait!! I don't associate w/ the gay/lez/bi world in any way, in fact, they tend to make me a bit uncomfortable, certain ones any way.
Quote from: Icephoenyx on November 13, 2008, 06:14:24 PM
I don't associate [with] the gay/lez/bi world in any way, in fact, they tend to make me a bit uncomfortable, certain ones any way.
Hmmm... your statement is a little too close to being homophobic for my liking.
And i'm not quite sure what "LGB world" you're referring to, last thing i heard was that we share your world too! :P
Hmmm, I skimmed through this thread. Unfortunately, it only gave me an urge to lol... :icon_lol:
I'm inclined to agree with Hypatia on this.
This thread has been placed in specific part of the part of the forum known as 'Transsexual talk'. Which, according to the board description, is "A general discussion forum for transsexuals." Since this is, in part, the nature of the thread, it's the best place within the forum for it to be.
Her opinion, and views, are hers, and she's entitled to them. If anyone doesn't agree with them, that's their perogative. But please refrain from throwing insults around at people, or suggesting they leave the site, and debate the issue as rational adults.
I realise this may be a sensitive issue for some, and things may get a little heated as people feel equally strongly about their views, but please, debate would be achieved much more effectively by focusing on the issue at hand and not the character of the person who puts it forward.
If someone wishes to live their life by identifying a certain way, then that should be their decision and, in my opinion, one that should be respected. It's their life. If someone else wishes to identify another way, likewise. That doesn't mean anyone is 'wrong' for seeing themselves as whomever they wish to see themselves as. And, as far as I can see, no one is telling others that they have to identify the same way as them.
They are who they are, you are who you are. People can co-exist, whatever their views. We're all human.
From a mod point of view, glendagladwitch, I would like to point you to this, from the rules of the site:
Quote from: Site rules7. Susan and her staff are the only authorized personnel that are permitted to tell someone to leave. If someone wants to discuss a subject you are not interested in either suggest a new subject; go to another of the many areas on this site; or ignore that person, topic, or discussion.
Please bear that in mind.
Thank you.
In reading this I see that two wrongs do not make a right. Glenda suggested that
Quoteit would seem appropriate for that person to LEAVE THIS TRANSGENDER FORUM rather than post divisive and hurtful comments.
This violates Site Rule #15, at least its spirit, and the suggestion was inappropriate.
However, Hypatia followed with
QuoteIt appears you haven't read my original post, either that or you have the reading and comprehension skills of an armadillo.
continuing, suggests
QuoteAgain, you must really need some remedial help with the reading comprehension skills.
and finishes with
Quoteyou wouldn't happen to be a troll, would you? Now leave my thread alone where I wasn't pestering you and was just minding my business, and go start your own.
Which appears to violate Site Rule #15:
Quote15. You may challenge the issue, but never people or groups.
To the point, threads and their possession is the Site's. Threads belong to the Site not to an individual:
Quote18. By submitting any information to this internet site you hereby grant a irrevocable license to use the information of which you are the owner to the owner of this internet site, and to other individuals which are designated by the site owners.
This includes but is not limited to your profile information, contributed photographs, forum posts and messages, wiki articles, email messages which are sent by you to the site staff or owner and their responses, and any other materials submitted by you to this website but which are not specified here.
This license is understood to include the rights of use to all intellectual property rights owned by you to the material in question, including but not limited to trademarks, copyrights, trade secrets, and so on.
These granted rights may be exercised, or terminated and the material removed; at the sole descretion of the website's owner at any time, without further notification of these actions being required. Any materials which are used under this granted license will contain proper attribution as to it's source.
Please both posters: calm yourselves. No matter what either one of you desires or doesn't desire as a "group" you certainly have the right to your opinions and your desires. You are both extremely intelligent and over time have both added positively to the Site.
Please disagree somewhat agreeably, ladies. It will make my job, other mod's jobs, and the Administrators' jobs that much simpler. Thank you both.
Nichole
P.S. Both of you might wish to consider editing your last responses, please, to better fit board etiquette and rules.
That would seem to me to be a nice gesture from both of you.
Thanks.
Is it not, infact, the spirit of this site for people to belive what they wish? Afterall, some of the kooky and wacky identities that crop up here pale Hypattia's view into insignificance... Live and let live is the general hollarings in these parts... i suggest people who dont want to debate this topic sensibly and feel they must order her off the site ought to try that aproach...
What's up with all the discord on this board lately, I'm running out of places to go to find friendly intelligent conversation. Did Jupiter take a left turn at Saturn instead of right? Goddess forgive the god of Neptune, and the god of Mercury have crotch crickets.
Cindy
lol thats rather funny Cindy. Now on to the discusion at hand. I am still pre-op but when it comes to myself I identify as a hetrosexual female period. this does not mean i have anything against any form of the LBGT community. I base my friendships off of personality and not how someone identifies or is labeled by others. However since im still early in my bodily transiton on a daily basis I recive the labels of guy, college student, nerd and thats all labels are preceptions imposed by other people onto a person or a group. When describing my issue to a therapist or doctor or even on forums such as this I will say transexual because as I understand it despite the heated debates going on around it Transexual still for the most part stands for a person who is planning on going through a phyiscal alteration of their body and reproductive organs. Hypatia I completely undertand you in certain points after i fully transition I don't want to be labeled and known as a trans-girl just a regular girl. While I don't have any particular strong wish or desire toward activism that dosen't mean that I will just break ties with any community. I still plan to offer my help and support to any person that comes to me and ask for my help so long as their desire is genuine and not false. Trans is an aspect of me but IT is not me. I am just Victoria
Hi Fox, I do agree with you. about being born with the affliction of transsexuality then we go through the remission, *the metamorphosis of transitioning*, then get the rest of the malignancy removed *get the necessary plumbing correction done.* Then finally come out of this long dormant period *chrysalis stage* to be the butterfly we were destined to become from the onset of conception. No more no less as fully a female as medical science can make you. You are for every intent and purposes a fully functioning woman to any outside observer,
Unless proven otherwize, like perhaps by Xray? The other two, an autopsy or forensics I would say you would have to without doubt pass as a stiff, like in dead, rigamortis, before these two procedures would be considered. By then, who care, you've already been dispatched to the next dimension anyway. I wanna be a Dragon Jockey in the next life and a part time fairy. ;D
So now, if you find yourself like most other red blooded GG and your preference happens to be a relationship with a male, then be it that is the choice you have made in your new role as a woman. Or, for lack of a better description, if your choice is having another woman for a partner to share your life with, then the correct label, if you must use labels, you are a lesbian. I can't see what it is that is so difficult to understand about this. It is your mind, soul and body for you to chose as what you desire to do with it, not anyone else's
When I moved here to Vancouver no one knows me or Wing Walker as as anything else but as the women we presented as and the women we worked so hard to be. The only people that know are our physician, our shrink, the trans support group we attend, the minister that married us and our lawyer. No one has ever approached us to ask if we were lesbian lovers, so I can only gather that people see us as two close friends who travel together, even to the Dr's office and I am not about to give out any further information unless it is legally required of us to do so. If asked by anyone else then I will decide at that time what information I will give them, for now it's nobody else's business.
QuoteI still plan to offer my help and support to any person that comes to me and ask for my help so long as their desire is genuine and not false. Trans is an aspect of me but IT is not me. I am just Victoria
Exactly, that is what I came back here to do. I am available for anyone who seeks support, a shoulder to cry on, a sounding board, just to talk about the weather, exchange a bit of humor or about the latest style of clothes, or about babies and little children.
Much of this topic one may find on my Blog Cindy's ramblings Blog or the Empath and Empathy's thread.
Cindy
Julia Serano has been working through similar feelings... (http://www.cherrygrrl.com/2008/11/30/julia-serano-transgender-dyke/)
QuoteOne thing that I find really frustrating about being transsexual is that (at least right now) it is difficult to be both out *and* to be seen as myself. For example, when a cissexual lesbian woman comes out, people get to see her as she sees herself—as a lesbian woman. However, when I come out as a transsexual woman, people get to see me as trans (which I am), but they also tend to stop seeing me as legitimately female and instead see me as a "man" (which I am not). I am looking forward to the day when I can both be open about being trans and be respected as a woman simultaneously.
Julia has already chosen to be known as transsexual, but is unhappy that some see her as a "man" on that basis. She is dealing with that problem by talking about it in the media. I admire her outspokenness. As for myself, while I contribute to transgender activism, I do not feel comfortable in the public spotlight and prefer to contribute what I can from behind the scenes. My immediate concern is with living my life as a woman-- nitty-gritty matters like getting a job-- and minimizing the obstacles thereto.