http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/cal/la-2008election-california-results,0,1293859.htmlstory?view=8&tab=0&fnum=0 (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/cal/la-2008election-california-results,0,1293859.htmlstory?view=8&tab=0&fnum=0)
Hopefully this will get caught up in appeals for the next six years and more people can get married but what's next for the movement?
wow. :icon_no:
Quote from: MeghanAndrews on November 05, 2008, 12:27:19 PM
... but what's next for the movement?
Learning that we cannot win with simply lots of money and television/radio buys.
Learning we actually will have to place our butts on the line and meet those who we fear and who fear us. Otherwise they will never associate "homosexual" with anything other than the monster-laden caricatures put out by Focus on The Family, the Mormon and Roman churches and others.
A page-book from the Obama phenomenon. What's next? Learning from our mistakes.
Nichole
Well as someone who is very involved in California politics its kind of surprising. The failure of the no on 8 people to carry either (if not both) Los Angeles and Riverside. Had they done that, it would have passed. And too, I'm a bit surprised by the failure of San Diego County. But look at the North, everything from Monterey to Humbolt, even including Contra Costa and Yolo. It carried in Alpine and due to a very strange historical quirk. And I don't even begin to know how to explain Mono. But I didn't think it would carry in either Contra Costa or Yolo.
It's close. Very close. But they needed far more of an effort in the Southland.
Proposition 8 is not necessarily final, there are 400k votes that separate yes from no, and estimated about 3/4million uncounted provisional/absentee ballots that have not been counted.
Tell them that you want ALL the proposition 8 votes counted! Call today! CA secretary of state: (916) 657-2166, or you can lodge a recorded complaint by calling 1-800-345-VOTE.
GOGOGO IT IS NOT OVER YETTTTTT.
It's not over.
The one thing to remember is that it may have started to look to easy for us all. Maybe some of us had forgotten that it never was easy to begin with. Now it's time to get back in shape and show some muscle.
I read that a whole bunch of states voted against LGBT issues. At first I was angry, but then I thought "who cares" how those elections came out. All we have to do is continue to be ourselves and we will have change.
Our time will come. So let's all be certain to dress up nicely.
I know I sound like a broken record here, but... If you don't live in California, how dare you call our election office and demand anything? Really? Ain't that our call to make? - and it will be made!
But that right belongs to us and us alone.
And the fact that they failed to get either, if not both, of the key LA counties is what lost this deal. Blame it on LA. Up North, we (almost) all voted for it. Well, far past the 'bay area.'
lol. blame la, that's hilarious tekla, thanks for making me laugh tonight, i needed it.
Quote from: tekla on November 05, 2008, 09:17:32 PM
I know I sound like a broken record here, but... If you don't live in California, how dare you call our election office and demand anything? Really? Ain't that our call to make? - and it will be made!
But that right belongs to us and us alone.
And the fact that they failed to get either, if not both, of the key LA counties is what lost this deal. Blame it on LA. Up North, we (almost) all voted for it. Well, far past the 'bay area.'
I agree. They do that here too in Mass. When the topic comes up, they come from all over. I think they should be banned and/or brutalized for interfering in our destiny. We have the world's oldest living constitution. It's not for others to decide for us what we do with it.
Quote from: tekla on November 05, 2008, 09:17:32 PM
I know I sound like a broken record here, but... If you don't live in California, how dare you call our election office and demand anything? Really? Ain't that our call to make? - and it will be made!
But that right belongs to us and us alone.
I don't want to stir the pot too much here, but wasn't it money and effort that came from out of state what made the YES vote happen? Specifically from the Mormon Church, and I believe the Roman Catholic Church had a hand, as well as all the fundies?
Other than making a donation to N.O.W. and HRC I did not participate. However if there were some way I could have I would have, even though I am not a resident.
And if there is a way I could lend a hand now, I would.
Hopefully, early next year, Illinois HB 1826, will come up for a vote. That is the civil union act for Illinois and I am a great supporter of that since I reside here. Illinois has complete gender equality laws that helped make my transition so wonderful. And having a civil union law will allow my partner and I to have legal status as a couple.
Given all the hoopla over Prop 8 and others, I wouldn't doubt that the fundies and others try the same crap here that they did in California. And I would very much appreciate any effort from anyone to help enact HB 1826 into law, no matter where they resided.
Now, tekla, if all it is that you have your knickers in a twist about is calling the election office, I would agree. Election requests should be made by the residents.
-Sandy
It was out of state money that put it on the ballot in the first place, we had already had a Supreme Court ruling that most of the people seemed to be able to live with.
And it failed due to a total lack of support in SoCal, well, except for Santa Barbra, but I would have thought they could have got LA or Riverside. Just one might have been enough.
Quote from: tekla on November 06, 2008, 08:13:48 AM
And it failed due to a total lack of support in SoCal, well, except for Santa Barbra, but I would have thought they could have got LA or Riverside. Just one might have been enough.
No amount of money to support the No on 8 campaign is going to quickly change popular opinion in Southern California for one initiative. What NoCal had going for it was years and years of an entrenchment of gay acceptance. The No on 8 movement most likely had little impact in Northern Cal, people knew how they were going to vote. That's the way it is.
I'd prefer to see people in our community and our allies stay cohesive and not start finger-pointing but, alas, people are people, it's what happens.
Ya know, if we are going to find some blame then I believe the very fact that for the most part we're often fearful of leaving our own enclaves and actually working to show a human face to "the other side" is our biggest problem.
TBH, if you're gonna look for reasons in LA and other points south then look no further than the FACT that votes for Obama did NOT add up to Votes for NO on 8. Why, I'd suspect that huge numbers of African-Americans were persuaded to vote for Obama and the same people cast YES votes on 8. Same with Hispanic-dominated counties & populations.
As long as we only stir among ourselves and refuse to go into places where we are afraid and they are afraid of us that same pattern will prevail.
There's no doubt that "outsiders" began the work and promulgated the work on YES for 8. But how many of those outsiders voted on 8? And there is the rub. Californians simply don't know one another and know that "the crazies in SF" are just other human beings with lives to lead and no nasty "agenda" to push on other people and "subvert" their families and lives.
I mean, good grief! Catherine and I are hardly monsters out to subvert others' children into the great Lesbian-horde that will gloat as those kids become perverts, monsters and trudge into Hell! But, ya know, if they never meet us or those like us, many folks are going to be able to have their fears aroused by the spit-flecked mouths and tropes of Barbera and Dobson and the sheer morons in Arkansas who push this garbage consistently.
It took black folk 44 years to go from The Civil Rights Act of 1964 to the Presidency. They managed through familiarity and the recognition that they were jsut other people too and that was to manage a 52% vote on a 12% population. But, it worked.
I'm not certain I am very much concerned with the success of "legal challenges" to accomplish what needs to be done with peoples' hearts and minds.
Nichole
I'm not finger pointing, I'm looking at a map and telling you where it lost. Why it lost is another matter. But, at least in knowing where it lost, you know where you really have to do the work next time.
A lot of money was poured into Alameda, SF, Marin and Sonoma, and for what? It was always going to pass in those places. Every no or yes on 8 dime that was spend in SF county was a total waste. The conclusion there was a foreordained event.
And I bet (I've haven't gone to the county maps yet to make sure, but I'm pretty sure) that Nichole is right, and its the Hispanic vote that went for Obama and Yes.
But, we know where the work is do be done. I'm not blaming LA exactly, but just trying to point out that its not going to pass in the State of California if it doesn't pass in LA. And it didn't.
Nichole also pretty much commented on South-Central and Compton and areas where there are large A-A populations. tekla. And you're pretty sure she's right about that as well, aren't you?
Outreach and putting one's own butt on what one fears is "the line" is never fun. Much safer and I can still say I've "done the work" if I'm going door-to-door in Santa Barbara, the Mission District or Monterey instead of in Gilroy, Salinas, Watts, or Fremont, no?
From way over here thinking of way back then I'd say "yes, it does."
But, thanks for the agreement on the "Hispanic-vote."
Nichole
The county Fremont is in went NO. Its very much one of those car culture places where they don't even really have a sidewalk system, so the door to door deal is a lot harder.
And, so, its really back to the Ledge and the Gov now. Don't expect fast progress.
As you've seen in reading my blog today at WordPress I don't expect "fast progress." I expect us to see what went wrong and to fix ourselves accordingly. It may take a long time to make-it-right. We just have to do the work on ourselves and get out there and change minds.
Nikki
Hey, its try and try again. Not every New Deal program worked. Some were real bad. But they tried something. And if it didn't work they had no problem with saying 'it didn't work' and replacing it with something else.
But I don't think there is going to be any sort of Monica deal going down, and I doubt that he is going to make the catastrophic mistakes like Katrina, that kept Bush off balance.
I think he is going to be like Reagan in that he is going to to in and do what he wants to do, not look back, and don't apologize for it either. It really works.
Hey, I think you're right and I think what he does try is not going to be bashed from the second he enters the Oval Office, the way it was with Clinton.
This time, regardless the LTBG votes, he won a pretty convincing majority and may have shut-up the conservo-bots for long enough that he'll get a few weeks anyway to have folk see that he ain't god, bit is a man with some passion, and a whole lot of sense and ability. (The Limbergers and Cold Hers will try to do their numbers, but i think at this point the outrage in the country has more to do with the previous administration than with those who are gonna be trying to down him from the git.)
Although I may well be wrong.
Nichole
I hope one outcome of the 'new spirit' is that Limbaugh et. all. are far less interesting. That they get a lot less attention. Their time and their ideas are no longer in operation. That, gosh darn it, they are just not in fashion anymore.
And, to the degree that Sarah is now the darling of the far right, that only helps. She has a few months, no more than a year, to figure out how to lose that shopping spree, know-nothing, mooseburgers image or she'll be stuck with it. Ask Dan Quale what that's like. Nothing could be better for us than the far opposition having a clown as their public image.
A clown?!! I mean they've had clowns as their public image for years!! What are the crew at Faux News (who might have done themselves lasting damage this cycle with some of the most blatant and untrue (checkably untrue) perorations they have ever managed to put out,) Limberger, ColdHer, Bill Bendit, Mook Savage and of course the MudDobbers and Hanna-Barberas who've been cartoon-imaging themselves toward oblivion as hard as they can go.
To add Sarah at the top of the ticket in 2012 will be rich. That might bring the true landslide I was hoping for this year.
You can't believe how badly I want to see these creeps get what they deserve: total repudiation.
OK, a rant, but one that made sense to me! >:-) >:-)
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole on November 06, 2008, 02:29:47 PM
A clown?!! I mean they've had clowns as their public image for years!! What are the crew at Faux News (who might have done themselves lasting damage this cycle with some of the most blatant and untrue (checkably untrue) perorations they have ever managed to put out,) Limberger, ColdHer, Bill Bendit, Mook Savage and of course the MudDobbers and Hanna-Barberas who've been cartoon-imaging themselves toward oblivion as hard as they can go.
To add Sarah at the top of the ticket in 2012 will be rich. That might bring the true landslide I was hoping for this year.
You can't believe how badly I want to see these creeps get what they deserve: total repudiation.
OK, a rant, but one that made sense to me! >:-) >:-)
Nichole
prop 4 had nothing to do with child predators. If it passed it would have forced minors to wait 2 days and tell their parents before they were allowed to have an abortion, which is outrageous and a terrible idea.
Who was talking about prop 4?
Yeah, Gracie, I don't think Prop 4 has been discussed at all, well, not until you did.
And the paragraphs you quoted of mine were about Sarah Palin and the Right, not about any Prop at all. Call me puzzled.
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole on November 06, 2008, 11:46:05 PM
Yeah, Gracie, I don't think Prop 4 has been discussed at all, well, not until you did.
And the paragraphs you quoted of mine were about Sarah Palin and the Right, not about any Prop at all. Call me puzzled.
Nichole
Oh, I must of misunderstood. I saw "sarah" and I saw "see these creeps get what they deserve" and thought of all the "yes on prop 4" posters I see around town. My apologies.
Gotta say I'm proud of what I consider my home town, Santa Cruz... 72% voted against prop 8. Awesome. And, though it might ruffle a few feathers, I still say things would be much better if northern california seceded from southern... the north would legalize gay marriage, decriminalize marijuana, and probably lead the country in liberalism.
and probably lead the country in liberalism
Doncha think that the coast of northern Cali does that already, perhaps? :) If ya start adding the Valley counties up north you may have a problem with that notion though.
Nikki
We only got something like 40 percent against prop 8 in the county where I live. Wherever I've gone in the past weeks, I've removed my Obama magnet from my car before I'e gone into the store. I've wanted my car in tact when I come back to it.
But there is a bright ray of sunshine here in the golden state. You can't ammend the constitution with a proposition. It is currently being challenged with three law suits and it will fail. It seems as though you just can't arbitrarily rescind equal rights for a minority group even with a popular mandate. Whe woulda known?
I don't know what to say about the religious groups who poured so much money down the toilet....
How bout Na na na na na?
Cind
Quote from: Nichole on November 06, 2008, 02:29:47 PM
You can't believe how badly I want to see these creeps get what they deserve: total repudiation.
OK, a rant, but one that made sense to me! >:-) >:-)
Nichole
Hi Nichole,
I'm not so certain that the creeps will be repudiated. You would think that the big reason to not vote republican is the fact that the religious people are constantly trying to screw with personal rights and that the neocons have instituted such barbarism as torture. However, I saw a count of how people voted in my town and there were only 1,000 votes more for Obama than McCain.
At work and at the dentist's office, I've heard people whining about how we're going to let al-quaida (sic) run the country and that everybody's money will be taken away and that everyone will lose some kind of rights (I have no idea what rights).
So, anyway, at first, I was horrified by the high numbers who voted republican. It doesn't make sense here. Pretty much no one cares what anyone else does with their lives, so why vote for a party that kisses up to fundamentalists?
I finally realized that people just ignore what I consider important. They have their own priorities. I don't understand why they can't value honesty and hard work over a group of leaders that pervert their ideals. But then, I don't understand what is so attractive about rap culture either.
My point is that you can't rely on Palin not turning up and dominating news cycles again, or even getting too close to the presidency than most of us would like. If not Palin, it will be someone who is similar.
Some conservatives want to dump the fundies. I wish them well. It would be nice to have a party of ideas rather than bigotry out there. On the other hand, some of the fundies are claiming that the fiscal conservatives are the ones who will be left behind.
My head already hurts. I think we haven't seen the last of the whackos until real honest secular (in
party spirit, not personal belief) republicans have the guts to kill the damned party of Lincoln and start a new party.
I just realized that though it is Lincoln who is dead - it is his party that stinks.
Last time I checked the North tried to legalize marriage, which is how all this started, in SF, and you have to try to get busted for pot. Get a card, and smoke away.
Yes. That's what I mean. I live in a state where same sex marriage is okay. Most people don't care one way or the other. And yet, some people still vote for a party that supports fundamentalism. The fundies want to ruin life for everybody in the country. It confuses me. The more people who desert the republicons, the sooner they'll clean up their act.
I mean, is party loyalty more important than doing what is right?
we finally got a law that prevents people caught with less than one ounce of pot from being arrested. But they get fined.
Some towns are beginning to support medical marijuana.
Now, if only they'd support medical LSD.
Now, if only they'd support medical LSD.
You must be trippin to even think that.
I too am extremely disappointed by the loss, but I take solace in the words from Mahatma Ghandi:
First they ignore you.
Then they laugh at you.
Then they fight you.
Then you win.
I think that we're near the "Then you win" part.
-Sandy
Am I the only person who believes in the psychological benefit of LSD?
If it wasn't for that drug, I'd have killed myself 20 times over in my teens.
I used it sparingly. The experience allowed me to clean all the garbage from my psyche. I used to be good for months after taking it.
Maybe I can get some action on this issue if I slip some to lawmakers.
[just a note* I don't use street drugs anymore and I really don't recommend the use of them for others. My doctors give me legal psychotropics and they are working well]
I have, and it would be nice if the Federal restrictions on testing and experimenting with LSD and other psychoactive drugs would be lifted so at least they can be studied.
My final opinion was that I may very well have voted Yes to Prop 8. It has nothing to do with transsexual rights. CA birtcertificates have been allowed to change years before ''gay-marriage''. There were key social issues in CA ballot that ''liberals'' forgot because of prop 8. Post-op transwoman with female birthcertificate can marry a man in future in California. But civil unions should be enough for same-sex couples. I sign being '' non-Californian'' against proposition 4.
You realize in that wacky world that is the California that "yes' means no, and 'no' means yes?
Quote from: goingdown on November 07, 2008, 09:23:59 AM
My final opinion was that I may very well have voted Yes to Prop 8. It has nothing to do with transsexual rights. CA birtcertificates have been allowed to change years before ''gay-marriage''. There were key social issues in CA ballot that ''liberals'' forgot because of prop 8. Post-op transwoman with female birthcertificate can marry a man in future in California. But civil unions should be enough for same-sex couples. I sign being '' non-Californian'' against proposition 4.
:) I suppose it's good you live in another country and couldn't vote on the matter then, GD! :laugh: But, everyone has an opinion, some I agree with, others not; but everyone's entitled to as many as they wish to have. So far our religious fundies haven't changed THAT! :)
Rebis,
How well did you know Dr. Tim Leary and Baba Ram Dass (Dr. Richard Alpert)? :laugh:
I agree with the idea tekla expressed. And that the research should be conducted by scientists not by the CIA, again.
Nichole
I just checked it seems that we won the battle for prop 4.
I met Dr. Leary twice in my life, once backstage when him and G. Gordan Liddy were doing a 'comedy' show together - if you think politics makes strange bedfellows, its got nothing on entertainment. Anyway it was the night before the Dead began one of their 3 night runs at the Greek and I had a nice sheet in my pocket, and offered him some. He declined.
Later I did interview him, he was very sick, but gracious to a grad student trying to write a dissertation, and it was a very interesting afternoon.
Baba Rum Raisin I never met, though I did read some of his stuff. All hippies were required to I think.
Quote from: tekla on November 07, 2008, 09:40:38 AM
Baba Rum Raisin I never met, though I did read some of his stuff. All hippies were required to I think.
Lemme guess, "Be Here Now" or "The Only Dance There Is"? ;)
Nikki
With the people I knew it was more like Be There When?
O, those were the days, eh? :) Goddess! I am so glad they're gone. I'd be totally disabled or dead if they weren't!! :)
Nikki
Quote from: Nichole on November 07, 2008, 09:36:48 AM
Rebis,
How well did you know Dr. Tim Leary and Baba Ram Dass (Dr. Richard Alpert)? :laugh:
I agree with the idea tekla expressed. And that the research should be conducted by scientists not by the CIA, again.
Nichole
I would prefer that the research be done by ME! ::)
I did a lot of research once, but we called it Dead Tour. I have the notes somewhere. Oh, I'm reading them now and they just don't make sense. Maybe if I get a little high....
Quote from: Nichole on November 07, 2008, 10:45:52 AM
O, those were the days, eh? :) Goddess! I am so glad they're gone. I'd be totally disabled or dead if they weren't!! :)
Nikki
What, you can remember what you did back then??!! :laugh:
Yes, I'm fortunate to have survived them as well.... ;)
Z
Quote from: tekla on November 07, 2008, 08:38:42 AM
Last time I checked the North tried to legalize marriage, which is how all this started, in SF, and you have to try to get busted for pot. Get a card, and smoke away.
I DO have a card, and I certainly do smoke. Never had a problem with anyone in Northern California on that front... and yet, in Los Angeles, I was arrested and jailed for possession of my own, LEGAL, medical bud.
LA sux. Really, its robocop land, and always has been.
Gotta have the robo-cops to keep the restless minions as quiet as possible and make sure that the moguls and their courts don't get any dirt on themselves.
N~
Yeah, but its a historical deal too, back the the 'flying squads' of the 1930s, through the Ed Parker years in the 60s.
Wow, LA had cops in planes in the 1930s! And here I thought that was just a prop in Bladerunner!! >:-)
No, I think they used sports cars, or coupes. And it wasn't them who did the flying, it was the other guys. And it was largely down. Mullholland Falls was a real deal as far as that little trip went.
O. Nice movie, I suppose, but kinda dark, no?
Nikki
Great film, I love the "NO! I'm from Jersey" line as he hits the guy in the face with the phone.
But its a real deal that the flying squads would take the East Coast Mob boys, and union organizers, and - well, they had a little list - up to this place on Mullholland and give 'em a little push.
I am presuming the cops weren't giving them memberships in the PUSH Jesse Jackson is/was associated with, eh?
Nikki
Quote from: tekla on November 07, 2008, 08:53:58 AM
Now, if only they'd support medical LSD.
You must be trippin to even think that.
Totally off topic, but yeah, there is some hope for medical LSD, though likely in the confines of a psych ward. It's being tested as a chemical alternative to elctroconvulsive therapy in cases of severe depression (heh, it always cheered me up). I think I'd rather have a tab of acid than a jolt!
Do they still make Jolt, Claire? I thought that had gone the way of the Edsel? Too much caffeine, wasn't it?
No, there was a major slope between Mulholland as it curves around and around climbing the mountian, its about a 45 degree slope, mostly rocks and after a tumble down it, lots of wise guys were on the next plane or train back to Jersey.
if they were wise, they wouldn't have been caught.
This whole thread seems to have taken several left turns... :D
They say that if you remember the sixties, you didn't live in the sixties...
-Sandy
I always thought the title Wise Guys was cute, cause if you've ever met any, they ain't the sharpest tacks in the box. However, they are the most violent, which seems to count for something. Even the LAPD went on them four or five to one.
we should have just used cops against al-quaida
(i never bother to find the right spelling for those losers)
Quote from: Nichole on November 11, 2008, 07:59:01 PM
Do they still make Jolt, Claire? I thought that had gone the way of the Edsel? Too much caffeine, wasn't it?
Ha, ha, ha. That's so funny I forgot to laugh. :eusa_snooty: