I read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand several years ago, calling her philosophy "objectivism". I felt she had some valid points as pertaining to free-enterprise and being upwardly mobile, but as for human relationships and a humane society I thought vile. As a whole I thought extremely flawed and brutal. My conclusions are that of my memory, not a freshly read book...but I think this is pretty close to her views.
Background. Ayn Rand grew up in Russia during the Russian Revolution and following purges under Lenin and later Stalin. She emigrated to the United States prior to WWII. She is, without a doubt, the epitomy of a right winged capitalist; no doubt influenced by her experience with the opposite. She claimed to base much of her philosophy on Aristotle ("prime motivator"), and her slogan was "objectivity".
All persons born into society must stand on their own feet. No one person should be required to support another. Every one person is born with a certain measure of ability expressed in different ways ie, art, science, industry, music, etc. You should use this ability for the benefit of yourself ONLY. By benefit I mean material, namely wealth, the only true measure in her view. There is no shame in being rich if those riches were a result of your ability and effort.
Everyone has different abilities. Example I am good at fixing automobiles, you are good at plumbing. I pay you to fix my toilet, you pay me to fix your car. Even trade. You are good at building airplanes, I am not; so I pay you money I earned though my own efforts and ability for the priviledge of being a passenger. If I am sick, I pay the doctor for his services. If I cannot pay, I do not get treated. If we are both carpenters, and you are better at building cabinets than me, then you deserve to get paid more than me. Who cares if I, the lesser carpenter, starves or not. That is my problem. Survival and prosperity of the more able.
It gets more pure than that...say if you saw a man drowning. You should not go save if if he does not have the ability to repay you. Selflessness is a delusion, there is no such thing. Everyone has a selfish motive. Some have a motive which is the desire to benefit from the efforts of others. These people should be let to starve. Other people have the motive to benefit themselves through their own efforts, and these people should be rewarded. Doing something for another without getting repaid by that person is immoral. If you are born, say, handicapped, then so what. He has no ability to stand on his own or contribute to society, let him starve.
Did you used to go by another name here? :)
Quote from: Nero on November 09, 2008, 02:43:05 PM
Did you used to go by another name here? :)
Nope, not unless I have a doppleganger. Do I resemble another?
a bit. :)
Quote from: Nero on November 09, 2008, 02:56:04 PM
a bit. :)
All I can say to that is: that person must have been one hell of a guy or gal, because I am one hell of a guy (or gal) :D
Quote from: Aurelius on November 09, 2008, 03:18:10 PM
Quote from: Nero on November 09, 2008, 02:56:04 PM
a bit. :)
All I can say to that is: that person must have been one hell of a guy or gal, because I am one hell of a guy (or gal) :D
indeed. :) but i take it back because i didn't read all of your post first. the other member worshipped ayn rand fanatically. you don't. just saw that name and...
but you are indeed one hell of a guygirl and all your posts are a pleasure to read. :)
Thanks Nero, you are one hell of a person too...
I try to be careful when I post controversial views, without presenting it as my own opinion, but still try to present their POV so people can talk about it on its own merits and make up their own mind. Not easy with some of these, but worth the effort.
Ayn Rand can go back to where she came from on the golden chariot she rode in on-->Aurelius's opinion.
The real problem is when the world does not have enough resources to feed it self who survives?
I have to agree at least as much as Lisa did with your perspective, Marcus the Golden One. :) (Please that was a play on your moniker, not meant as an insult to you.) In fact I'd go beyond where she stopped and simply say that I find idealism a bad way to run one's life in its entirety, but not a bad way to selectively make a society at all -- inetrelatedness and what we've come to call humane not being inimical to a social order as Rand seems to have thought.
As you say, her experience of the revolution may well have simply made her one of those avoid "communism at all costs" kinda folk.
I found your summation of Ms. Rand to be succinct and well-aimed and fair.
I think the largest irony I find in her is that she claims to be a "social" thinker, but her "society" seems like an inflation of a Spencerian kinda sense of "the survival of the fittest." I find that the opinion tends to be positive for those who are physically strong and have inherited or made a good deal of money, definitely not much hope of any altruistic sense in such a "society."
No room for human compassion, simply an ueber-materialistic way of defining "fittest."
Nichole
Quote from: lisagurl on November 09, 2008, 05:12:45 PM
The real problem is when the world does not have enough resources to feed it self who survives?
The Big Fish would say to the Once and Future King, in reply, "Might IS right. I will. Because I am bigger than you." Ayn Rand is trying to apply a form of Darwinism to individuals and human society as in the animal kingdom, or at least that's what I think. Animals don't deplete their own resources and destroy their own environment; and except for ants, do not make war on each other. We do. Only the strong survive, and in her view, the only ones that should. Greater ability also means greater strength.
Posted on: November 09, 2008, 07:04:42 pm
Quote from: Nichole on November 09, 2008, 05:45:45 PM
I have to agree at least as much as Lisa did with your perspective, Marcus the Golden One. :) (Please that was a play on your moniker, not meant as an insult to you.) In fact I'd go beyond where she stopped and simply say that I find idealism a bad way to run one's life in its entirety, but not a bad way to selectively make a society at all -- inetrelatedness and what we've come to call humane not being inimical to a social order as Rand seems to have thought.
As you say, her experience of the revolution may well have simply made her one of those avoid "communism at all costs" kinda folk.
I found your summation of Ms. Rand to be succinct and well-aimed and fair.
I think the largest irony I find in her is that she claims to be a "social" thinker, but her "society" seems like an inflation of a Spencerian kinda sense of "the survival of the fittest." I find that the opinion tends to be positive for those who are physically strong and have inherited or made a good deal of money, definitely not much hope of any altruistic sense in such a "society."
No room for human compassion, simply an ueber-materialistic way of defining "fittest."
Nichole
No the irony was that you and me were writing almost the same conclusion at the same time :laugh:(note what the fish said).
Marcus Aurelius : Once and Future King
Yes, I saw that in your reply to Lisa. :) I'd have to agree that it's an irony, but that there's also an ironic cast to a "philosopher" who claims to be a "social" philosopher and at the same time undermines any realistically "social" societal arrangement!
That seems like a huge "irony," probably so huge that the entire framswork comes crashing down for lack of a foundation. Now that notion would certainly prolly piss-off a "realist" like Ms Rand. A "realist" who builds hoses without foundations. Hmmm. :)
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole on November 09, 2008, 06:24:09 PM
Yes, I saw that in your reply to Lisa. :) I'd have to agree that it's an irony, but that there's also an ironic cast to a "philosopher" who claims to be a "social" philosopher and at the same time undermines any realistically "social" societal arrangement!
That seems like a huge "irony," probably so huge that the entire framswork comes crashing down for lack of a foundation. Now that notion would certainly prolly piss-off a "realist" like Ms Rand. A "realist" who builds hoses without foundations. Hmmm. :)
Nichole
Yes, and the many hours I spent reading the thousand plus page book could have been better used, say, polishing my rock collection. But I can't get those hours back, so I will at least try to learn something from Ms Rand, who fancies herself an heir of Plato. Oh well. I was in Iraq at the time and was reading anything I could get my hands on. Maybe porn would have been better?
Marcus
I can suggest the novels of Patricia McKillip, but you may not like the fantasy settings she places her very real-life-like characters into. :)
As for the rock collection one of my maternal uncles had this "polisher" that ran on a very small engine (like an electric fan engine) that he made. The engine turned a canister in which he placed the rocks, very fine sand and water and turned the switch to "on."
He'd let the stones tumble for three days and they came out amazingly highly polished. Plus, he could both read Ayn Rand if he chose to do so AND polish the rock collections!! :laugh: :laugh:
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole on November 09, 2008, 06:44:48 PM
I can suggest the novels of Patricia McKillip, but you may not like the fantasy settings she places her very real-life-like characters into. :)
As for the rock collection one of my maternal uncles had this "polisher" that ran on a very small engine (like an electric fan engine) that he made. The engine turned a canister in which he placed the rocks, very fine sand and water and turned the switch to "on."
He'd let the stones tumble for three days and they came out amazingly highly polished. Plus, he could both read Ayn Rand if he chose to do so AND polish the rock collections!! :laugh: :laugh:
Nichole
my life has been waisted. :(
Good thing I don't really have a rock collection ;D
Quote from: Nero on November 09, 2008, 02:43:05 PM
Did you used to go by another name here? :)
Chris is too old to be Brede. I mean, Brede was too young for Chris to be Brede.
I have to admit that particular uncle always found things to fascinate him. He was a minister and yet also majored in philosophy and literature as an undergrad. He taught himself how to build a house, inside and out and built several.
He was always making gadgets to save work so he could work on two or three things at once. He constantly was buying old unworkable clocks and bringing them home to repair and use or give as Xmas gifts to folks.
He was also that most rare creature, at least in my view, a Church of Christ minister who never flagged in his liberal views of humans and our interactions. Plus, he's the only one of my relatives who managed to find some peace and understanding with my transition, so I am a bit prejudiced.
But he was a nice man and totally devoted to God and people (he didn't seem to find a lot of difference in his treatment of people and his treatment of God.) That message wasn't always accepted well in his congregations, but you'd be totally surprised at what people "will become used to" when the exposure to it is provided by someone who's genuinely loving and witty. :)
I have to admit I still love him although he passed three years ago. As Felix said to St. Paul "Almost you've persuaded me to become an Christian." There were times that his love and decency and utter regard for people would almost win me over. :) They did win me to a deep love and respect for him.
Nichole
Quote from: lisagurl on November 09, 2008, 05:12:45 PM
The real problem is when the world does not have enough resources to feed it self who survives?
The smartest. A clever tiny person can find a way to steal from an ignorant bodybuilder.
My theory is that there will be spots that are at this time, not too inhabited, and food will be grown there by strong communities who will defend their territories viciously. But then, I will sneak in at night and burn their crops because I don't believe in hording.
I forgot to say that the only thing preventing me from digging up Ayn Rand and vandalizing her corpse, is that I'm too lazy to do it. I may however vandalize the corpse of Allen Greenspan since it still walks the earth and wouldn't require any digging to get to it.
Quote from: Rebis on November 09, 2008, 06:59:28 PM
Quote from: Nero on November 09, 2008, 02:43:05 PM
Did you used to go by another name here? :)
Chris is too old to be Brede. I mean, Brede was too young for Chris to be Brede.
I hope you verified my age Rebis, because by your tone I feel like I belong to my father's generation. Or do I? I keep seeing my old man when I look in the mirror...
Posted on: November 09, 2008, 08:08:49 pm
"The smartest. A clever tiny person can find a way to steal from an ignorant bodybuilder"
Ability=Stength=Smart. Same thing in the sense of the argument. Might is right.
I think you're in your late 30's. Brede is still college age. You have too much life experience to be them.
No offense to Brede if they happen to read this.
Quote from: Rebis on November 09, 2008, 07:12:23 PM
I think you're in your late 30's. Brede is still college age. You have too much life experience to be them.
No offense to Brede if they happen to read this.
35, close enough.
QuoteIn 1950 Rand moved to 120 East 34th Street in New York City, and formed a group (jokingly designated "The Collective") which included future Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan,
QuoteRand stated that homosexuality is "immoral" and "disgusting." Specifically, she stated that "there is a psychological immorality at the root of homosexuality" because "it involves psychological flaws, corruptions, errors, or unfortunate premises."[
The theme of "Atlas Shrugged" is the role of man's mind in society. Ronald Reagan's bible.
Quote from: lisagurl on November 09, 2008, 08:32:45 PM
QuoteIn 1950 Rand moved to 120 East 34th Street in New York City, and formed a group (jokingly designated "The Collective") which included future Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan,
QuoteRand stated that homosexuality is "immoral" and "disgusting." Specifically, she stated that "there is a psychological immorality at the root of homosexuality" because "it involves psychological flaws, corruptions, errors, or unfortunate premises."[
The theme of "Atlas Shrugged" is the role of man's mind in society. Ronald Reagan's bible.
Good thing I never called you "Ayn Rand of the Left Field". I was tempted. I admit. But once in a blue moon I realize the error of my thinking ;)
Quote from: lisagurl on November 09, 2008, 08:32:45 PM
QuoteIn 1950 Rand moved to 120 East 34th Street in New York City, and formed a group (jokingly designated "The Collective") which included future Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan,
QuoteRand stated that homosexuality is "immoral" and "disgusting." Specifically, she stated that "there is a psychological immorality at the root of homosexuality" because "it involves psychological flaws, corruptions, errors, or unfortunate premises."[
The theme of "Atlas Shrugged" is the role of man's mind in society. Ronald Reagan's bible.
Ronald Reagan is on my list of corpses in need of vandalization.
By the way Lisa, just reiterating I am joking full well knowing you don't laugh with your computer screen.
Chris
or at your computer screen
or anywhere near its presence.
:-\