I mean, I know some people don't understand how someone can be TG or TS but it seems like my parents (well at least my mom) just doesn't want to understand. She thinks that if you're transgendered, you're AUTOMATICALLY gay (which in their meanings, mean a MtF attracted to guys or FtM attracted to girls). I've tried explaining to her a few times that "Just because someone may feel more femenine or masculine than their physical sex doesn't mean they're always gay" (using gay in the terms so they understand it) and she usually says something along the lines of "Then why change your gender if you're not attracted to the same sex?" and then I tried explaining that part but my mom just thinks that if a guy wants to become a girl then he's gay and if a girl wants to become a guy then she's gay. My mom asked me this yesterday when we somehow got on the subject again. She asked "If you saw a guy walking down the street dressed as a woman and you knew it was a man, what would you think?" And I told her "I wouldn't think anything of it" and she said "You wouldn't think he was gay?" and this has been about the seventh time we've talked about transgenders. I get mad (I don't show it) every time she says something along the lines of if you're trans, you're gay, because she fights me on it! Like she's determined to prove it or something. My parents are not too fond of gay people so if they found out I was bi (pansexual actually), they'd freak. My brother already knows about my orientation but he doesn't know about my gender. If I told him about my gender, he'd probably laugh. I'm sorry if this is a rant but I feel like I need to get it off my chest and it's just a frustrating thing. I love my family and all, they're great, it just gets frustrating that they're so stubborn on certain things. My friends (of the only one I have) treats me like a girl. We'll be in a conversation and we'll be talking about something that deals with guys and girls points of views and he'll say something like "You're a girl so this is how girls deal with it" and continue on and I think ".___. got.....to try....to not let that....affect me" and someone else I know who chats with me still calls me Amanda, says things to me that deals with my female self, stuff like that. People all around me treat me like a girl. I don't know of anyone who sees me as a guy. Everyday I think to myself "I've got to be happy being male..I want to be happy the way I am, regardless of what everyone around me says and regardless the way my body is..." but almost everyday something happens to kind of crush that. Someone will say something, I don't know...it just sucks. Well, in the end, the reason I posted this was to ask, does anyone else have a problem where their family or friends just don't seem to understand what being transgender means? I'm curious to know if this is a normal occurrence or if it's kinda rare and the people around me are just extra stubborn.
Raditz
It seems like we are the only ones who really understand the concept and how we fit into that concept. To everyone else, they see gay or straight, black and white, etc. with very little middle ground.
My mom is having trouble coming to grips with this concept as well. And I kinda agree with her. It's a very fuzzy concept. Even understanding it does not mean it will be accepted. What probably makes this easier for my mom to get her head around is the fact that I am attracted to guys. So she naturally sees this as an extension to being gay of sorts. Actually, she wishes I were gay instead.
If she never really gets it, or anybody else does, it doesn't really matter to me. I finally know what I am and that is enough to make me happy for now. It would be great if I could meet a special guy who was capable of seeing the true me. Then nothing else would seem to matter.
I agree with you there, it's a good way to see the independent side of it where if no one else gets it it doesn't really matter. It's a hard to understand subject
Have you gotten the whole "You're trying to coerce us into believing what you believe" thing?
Besides that, yes. The whole "being treated like former apparent gender" thing makes me (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsmg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv642%2FLizzy-kun%2Fth_headdesk2.gif&hash=3dbff95af62e2516e71c84f9651f58136b935912). You don't see me as male? Try relating to me as a son and you might notice i respond better! Jesus! (I have not actually said this--see above).
uy.
I went through all that back in the 1960's and the best I could come up with is "It isn't about who I want to be with - it is about being true to myself." In my case it was bloody obvious, for anyone who bothered to look, but in those days I kept talk of sex and orientation completely out of it - better to focus on my need to be ME. (The sex and everything else came later ;D )
Have you tried explaining that transition isn't a 'fix' or 'cure' for homosexuality nor a desperate attempt for heteronormativity? I think PFLAG has some awesome literature about it on their site. Check it out.
You and me Godot. Christ it is frustrating. I just get stone silence - out of sight out of mind, it just does not seem to compute.
I think it is a really good thing that you have some dialogue with them. Challenging their ingrained beliefs is hard.
Keep talking.
I think a really hard concept for many cisgendered people is the potential seperation between gender identity, sex, sexuality and expression. For most it is one and the same.
I think a really hard concept for many cisgendered people is the potential seperation between gender identity, sex, sexuality and expression.
I don't think you'd have to read too many posts around here to find out that lots of trans persons have a big problem with it too.
Absolutely. I was thinking about that too. I guess the common perception is so pervasive it affects almost all of us. It causes more pain than there needs to be.
Lawrence of Arabia said to the King, "so long as you fight amongst yourselves, so long will you be a little people."
Quote from: Emme on November 12, 2008, 05:10:28 PM
What I have found is that while we can be supportive and sympathetic, and while we may understand the concept intellectually on some level, those of us who don't have these feelings simply can't understand.
I have a feeling that not nearly all of us on the other side understand either. Having the kind of gender dissonance I do is simply normal for me, it's all I've ever experienced in that regard. It only dawned on me this autumn that yes, there really are people whose inner view of their sex matches the physical reality -- and still I cannot fully imagine how it would feel, I just understand that some people are that way.
How do you explain something you feel in terms of something vaguely similar that you don't understand yourself?
Nfr
Well..me and my mom got on the subject again today. I was at the bookstore and I asked one of the bookstore workers if they had any books on the transgender subject. It's really hard to find books about that in stores..Anyway, there were two lady's who were workers and they took me to one of the aisles and helped me try to locate a book. One of them was saying how they've had books before that were about girls living as boys but the girls in the book didn't identify as transgender and she said she thought I wasn't looking for that. I guess she knew I was FtM or something because she was helping me look for books on the subject of FtM transgenders. I did feel complimented over that ;D. But the bad part is is that my mom kept spewing off her opinions on TG people while we were driving and my brother was in the car with us. I know he must laugh at me...Even though he doesn't do it in front of me I know he must think I'm immature. My mom's opinions were the same as before. "A woman who cuts her hair short, binds her chest, and blah blah blah is a lesbian" I'm so used to it now that it didn't really affect me. Oh well..I don't really care if my family accepts me or not. It's my life, they need to stop trying to be a part of it so much.
Sorry for the rant :-X
Quote from: Emme on November 12, 2008, 05:10:28 PMI am asking that you realize there are limits to what we can and cannot wrap our heads around.
That is SO TRUE Emme!
I 'transitioned' in 1974. People who knew me before simply thought of me as "odd". Certainly I didn't fit as "boy" but then I wasn't quite "girl" either (according to the paperwork), and neither was I Gay - so all that was left is "just odd".
In over 30 years of living just a plain everyday 'woman's life', people who know me now could not imagine I wasn't born "normal female" and grew up the way everybody else did. But I wouldn't expect them to because
I find it nearly impossible to believe.
Quote from: Seshatneferw on November 13, 2008, 03:57:19 AM
I have a feeling that not nearly all of us on the other side understand either. Having the kind of gender dissonance I do is simply normal for me, it's all I've ever experienced in that regard. It only dawned on me this autumn that yes, there really are people whose inner view of their sex matches the physical reality -- and still I cannot fully imagine how it would feel, I just understand that some people are that way.
How do you explain something you feel in terms of something vaguely similar that you don't understand yourself?
Nfr
One I have tried was telling a friend, "It's like you grew up with people calling you (her sister's name), thinking you liked food, clothing, etc (her sister) would like. They expect you to think and act like (her sister), too. And when you look in the mirror, you see (her sister), but all the time you're inside.
My mom doesn't want to understand, either.
My mom thinks if you're transgender, you're automatically ->-bleeped-<-ed up. "Transition doesn't fix them," she says. One time she said to me, "Don't you bring any of your ->-bleeped-<- freak friends here." I said, "I guess I'm unwelcome, then."
I'm bisexual. Currently, in love with a girl. Does that make me a lesbian in denial? No. Call me a lesbian if you want. I don't care. I identify as male. I feel like my relationship with this girl is a heterosexual one.
Quote from: Elwood on November 18, 2008, 02:41:30 PM
My mom doesn't want to understand, either.
My mom thinks if you're transgender, you're automatically ->-bleeped-<-ed up. "Transition doesn't fix them," she says. One time she said to me, "Don't you bring any of your ->-bleeped-<- freak friends here." I said, "I guess I'm unwelcome, then."
I'm bisexual. Currently, in love with a girl. Does that make me a lesbian in denial? No. Call me a lesbian if you want. I don't care. I identify as male. I feel like my relationship with this girl is a heterosexual one.
Find yourself a super passable ->-bleeped-<- friend. Bring 'em to Mom's for dinner a few times. Once Mom seems that this is a reasonable, well adjusted human being who looks like a "real boy" or "real girl," drop the bomb. hello, education...
Also, I thought you were pansexual? just trying to keep my facts straight...
Quote from: Mister on November 18, 2008, 04:36:50 PMQuote from: Elwood on November 18, 2008, 02:41:30 PMMy mom doesn't want to understand, either.
My mom thinks if you're transgender, you're automatically ->-bleeped-<-ed up. "Transition doesn't fix them," she says. One time she said to me, "Don't you bring any of your ->-bleeped-<- freak friends here." I said, "I guess I'm unwelcome, then."
I'm bisexual. Currently, in love with a girl. Does that make me a lesbian in denial? No. Call me a lesbian if you want. I don't care. I identify as male. I feel like my relationship with this girl is a heterosexual one.
Find yourself a super passable ->-bleeped-<- friend. Bring 'em to Mom's for dinner a few times. Once Mom seems that this is a reasonable, well adjusted human being who looks like a "real boy" or "real girl," drop the bomb. hello, education...
Also, I thought you were pansexual? just trying to keep my facts straight...
I tend to use pansexual and bisexual interchangeably... most people I know don't know what pansexual is, so bisexual is the next closest thing.
Quote from: Seshatneferw on November 13, 2008, 03:57:19 AM
How do you explain something you feel in terms of something vaguely similar that you don't understand yourself?
Nfr
i was thinking this exact same thing the other day. i decided its like trying to explain to someone what an orange tastes like. they may have had a lemon or orange flavoring, and thats close, but without actually tasting one, they'll never know exactly what its like, but they could still say they prefer oranges to apples. that made a lot more sense in my head, but there you go :laugh:
Quote from: Emme on November 12, 2008, 05:10:28 PMwe may understand the concept intellectually on some level, those of us who don't have these feelings simply can't understand.
But see Emme, that's the point. You make an effort to understand it intellectually, you have the compassion and empathy to understand that, just because you can't understand it at a deep level, does not mean that it does not exist. And that's why you're a special person and Cami a very lucky one.
Godot, I don't know if it'll help - I've had alot of success, but it hasn't worked with everybody I've tried to explain things to:
I ask the person to close his or her eyes and think about all the things that they most love about being the gender they are. I ask them to visualize themselves having those attributes, being proud of who and what they are, expressing themselves, BEING the kind of guy or girl they dream of being.
Then I ask them to think about all the things they think are worst about the opposite gender - and yeah, some really misogynistic ( and the opposite! ) attitudes crawl out here, but it does get the point across. Then I ask them to imagine how it would feel if all those attributes they cherish are suddenly taken away only to be replaced by all these other attributes they are freaked out by or disgusted with or look down on. Then I ask them to imagine how it would feel if they had to accept that and live like that for the rest of their lives.
I don't know, if you can get your folks to play along, maybe you can make a bit of headway. Sorry I don't have better advice hon.
Good luck,
~Simone.
Quote from: lady amarant on November 21, 2008, 11:59:13 AM
Quote from: Emme on November 12, 2008, 05:10:28 PMwe may understand the concept intellectually on some level, those of us who don't have these feelings simply can't understand.
But see Emme, that's the point. You make an effort to understand it intellectually, you have the compassion and empathy to understand that, just because you can't understand it at a deep level, does not mean that it does not exist. And that's why you're a special person and Cami a very lucky one.
Godot, I don't know if it'll help - I've had alot of success, but it hasn't worked with everybody I've tried to explain things to:
I ask the person to close his or her eyes and think about all the things that they most love about being the gender they are. I ask them to visualize themselves having those attributes, being proud of who and what they are, expressing themselves, BEING the kind of guy or girl they dream of being.
Then I ask them to think about all the things they think are worst about the opposite gender - and yeah, some really misogynistic ( and the opposite! ) attitudes crawl out here, but it does get the point across. Then I ask them to imagine how it would feel if all those attributes they cherish are suddenly taken away only to be replaced by all these other attributes they are freaked out by or disgusted with or look down on. Then I ask them to imagine how it would feel if they had to accept that and live like that for the rest of their lives.
I don't know, if you can get your folks to play along, maybe you can make a bit of headway. Sorry I don't have better advice hon.
Good luck,
~Simone.
Any advice is better than none, Simone :) I appreciate it. And I understand the part of telling people to close their eyes. It can help them get an idea of how it is
To some it is difficult to understand that ones sex and sexual orientation are not the same. Many see transsexualism as "a guy/girl becoming so gay that they want to be a girl/guy" which is far from the truth. With a lack in understanding of homosexuality, I could see how people can make that connection, even though it is not true.
You should ask your mother "Gay men are gay men. If they became women, they wouldn't be able to be with gay men anymore, because gay men like men, not women. Not even men that look like women."
And if that doesn't work, then ask "Going through with transitioning is leaps and bounds tougher to go through than it is being gay. Why would someone transition in denial to being gay? Logically, someone would use being gay as denial of having transsexualism."