Before I get a bunch of stuff thrown at me let me put forth a scenario.
Lets say someone is chronically depressed, and though they want to live no matter what they do they still suffer. They do what they are supposed to do and get help, even spend time in a psych ward but nothing helps. So while they feel that they still want to live, suicide seems to be the only option. Given that, would it be ok for them to go ahead with it? If you say no, then the question become: do we have the right to tell someone they should live, even force them to, when they don't want to anymore?
Yes, I am describing myself in this question. No i'm not planning suicide, the question stands as a purely philosophical one.
Quotesuicide seems to be the only option
'Seems" is part of the sickness. There are always other options.
Quote from: lisagurl on November 13, 2008, 09:31:44 AM
Quotesuicide seems to be the only option
'Seems" is part of the sickness. There are always other options.
So you don't think that suicide should be allowed, even in that situation? In that case, what do you think about forcing people to live against their will?
Personally? Making people live against their will is unconstitutinal. Forcing people to live is similar to forcing someone who is in chronic pain to live without painkillers. Forcing someone to live is more selfish then someone wanting to die.
It is not forcing it is protecting them from their selves. Now if a terminally ill person is in pain and has no chance of recovery and can not benefit themselves or society then to reduce the hardships on everyone perhaps with that person's request a planned pain free sleep can be administrated by a qualified doctor.
The facts are that our brain is not always the best judge of our bodies. You can be creative and contribute to yourself and society for many years to come. Life is too short as it is. I have been in your shoes myself in my 20's, I am glad for the help I received. One of the things I learned is to keep a daily routine of eating and sleeping. Stop any mind altering drugs including caffeine, alcohol, aspirin, smoking and anything else you take for pain. See a qualified doctor and get a full checkup both mind and body. Exercise at least an hour each day outside in the sun.
The real problem is you have not found someone to help you.
To date, I've known two people who killed themselves due to chronic pain that medical science of their times (1980 and 2008) could not correct. There is no way I could have told those persons to continue suffering. Who am I to say how another should suffer?
I believe that people should have the right to choose whether or not the should live. Perhaps the two of whom I spoke could have been spared if they had enough money. That is a key factor in medical care: how much relief can one afford. Alternatives might indeed exist, for a price.
With any issue, though, I perceive it in shades of gray (hence my screen name). There might be those who perhaps should not make such decisions on their own. I don't think it's an issue I could, or would, decide for another person.
I've seen the results of suicide. I've never seen so much pain and devestation to a family. It truely is a horrid thing. Occasionally I talk to very old people on the help line I voluntarily work at and they are still grieving, still in pain from a family member completing suicide when they were young. The pain in their voices, the way it has colored their whole lives. It sends out ripples of pain all around, through family, friends and the community and they never go away. Often people commit suicide in response.
Certainly I think someone has a right to die if that is what they want, but I don't think it is ever ok. It is never a good thing. In terms on impact on all those associated with the person it would be better is somone raped, tortured and murdered them instead of them completing suicide. The impact is that huge. It is just so sad.
In answer to your question I don't think anyone has the right to stop someone completing suicide but we all have the right to try. It would be inhuman not to try stop it. (I think euthenasia is a different thing)
Quote from: Nicky on November 13, 2008, 04:21:36 PM
In terms on impact on all those associated with the person it would be better is somone raped, tortured and murdered them instead of them completing suicide.
Because knowing their loved one died a slow, agonizing death would somehow mitigate the grief? I don't understand this at all.
Except in the case of terminal illness I do not believe the depressed or otherwise mentally ill should be allowed to commit suicide. On the other hand we could do a lot more to help them, beginning with examing our attitudes which cause us to have ideas like the one above.
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 13, 2008, 04:56:19 PM
Quote from: Nicky on November 13, 2008, 04:21:36 PM
In terms on impact on all those associated with the person it would be better is somone raped, tortured and murdered them instead of them completing suicide.
Because knowing their loved one died a slow, agonizing death would somehow mitigate the grief? I don't understand this at all.
Ah, sorry. Bad gramma. I meant instead of that person dieing by suicide they had been raped, tortured, murdered - the impact on those around them would not be as great. Just establishing a yardstick. This is in my own experience in terms of listening to grieving people. All I mean is I think suicide is really really bad on those that know the person.
The problem is that whilst it may be the "right" choice for the person, is it the right choice for the friends and family that he/she leaves behind? What if you ask the question "Is there any reason that someone close to you could justifiably commit suicide?"
I think the point is that our Judeo-Christian values tell us it is an irredeemable sin to take one's own life. Family and those who care for us are truly concerned about the well being of our souls in whatever after life is to follow. Then there is the societal shame attached when a member of the family commits suicide. We all know "crazy" runs in the genes.
One might choose to look upon it with the thought that the person who committed suicide is no longer in pain and aside from what your faith may tell you about what happens after you die, you don't know for sure that killing yourself is an enternal sentence to the Lake of Fire, or whatever bad thing you attach to it.
Why would you insist that someone live in pain, emotioinal or physical, just because you either want the knowledge that their soul will wind up where you imagine it should or you are unable to deal with the shame you will put on yourself? Surely it is no less selfish to demand that the person who is hopeless go on living a hopeless and painful life just so a few people don't have to suffer the inconvenience of adjusting their thinking.
Should we encourage a culture of suicide as is done in other parts of the world? Absolutely not. Our value of life is what defines us and it makes us a hell of a lot better than other people in my opinion. But then the inablity to obtain needed health care is a real slap in the face to that value, almost makes it hypocritical. People are dying of easily treatable illnesses everyday not because the treatment is unavailable or too expensive but because policy makers set the system up that way. The case of the dental abcess is one point; if you get an infection that leads to blood poisoning due to a problem with your teeth and are unable to obtain emergency treatment on your own you might very easily if die if the public hospital in your area has decided not to do dental. It happens more often than you might believe.
I'm getting to the age where I can very easily see myself alone and unable to do the simplest of things to take care of myself in not too many years. What if I were to wind up in a homeless shelter or a nursing home being abused? I might decide I'm done doing it anymore and I'd like the option of checking out in such a case. Now, I'm sure that won't happen...but it could.
I have a brother who I worry about. If he were gone I would grieve for a time. But if he were to commit suicide I would not feel worse than if he had died by other means. I know what he's been through and he's older than me so I know what things I might face in 10 years or so.
This is a difficult subject but generally speaking I think most people misunderstand death. It might actually be a good thing, who knows?
It seems the only real reasons for not allowing it are religious and selfish-ness.
You are perfectly willing to put a pet out it's misery but not a person? How sane is that.
I'm sorry, but this is one instance where religion really misses the boat.
If a person wants to, and is perfectly rational and sane in making the judgment, I see no reason not to allow it.
There is also other things to consider, this would eliminate a lot of messy suicides, no more family finding dad with his head blown off by a shotgun, mommy laying in her own feces, or jr. hanging by a rope. Not to mention the nutters who make a big show of it, or create problems like stepping in front of a commuter train. All of which cause problems for many other people (cleanup, mental, and more).
If a person truly is determined and wants to, they will.
Who are you to judge, and who is to say this was not God's plan? You can say the book is his word, but it has been passed down through mankind and we know how accurately we keep history. I also do not see how God would judge someone harshly for not being capable of handling the pain.
If you think you can live with any pain you can experience, you have not experienced real physical pain yet.
Interesting responses all. it is interesting though not surprising that a few have taken the religious reasoning against suicide. Not to say this is wrong, just interesting. It also can add an aspect to the question being asked. For instance, are we as a nation forcing the majority religion upon the minor religions in our country? Using myself as an example, I'm a wiccan. So the arguments used such as going to hell and such I would consider invalid, as they do not pertain to my religion. Other religions could take similar viewpoints.
So this leaves a core question. Is there any reason besides religion that denies the validity of the right to take one's own life?
Quote from: Terra on November 14, 2008, 04:40:46 AM
So this leaves a core question. Is there any reason besides religion that denies the validity of the right to take one's own life?
Selfishness on the part of those wanting the person to stick around despite living in pain.
(you did not ask for good ones)
Quote from: Terra on November 13, 2008, 08:34:32 AM
Before I get a bunch of stuff thrown at me let me put forth a scenario.
Lets say someone is chronically depressed, and though they want to live no matter what they do they still suffer. They do what they are supposed to do and get help, even spend time in a psych ward but nothing helps. So while they feel that they still want to live, suicide seems to be the only option. Given that, would it be ok for them to go ahead with it? If you say no, then the question become: do we have the right to tell someone they should live, even force them to, when they don't want to anymore?
Yes, I am describing myself in this question. No i'm not planning suicide, the question stands as a purely philosophical one.
No i believe suicide should be stopped. Nature and society has devised so many other ways of killing us off that we owe it to ourselves it find ways in the meantime of stopping that.
The real issue is should you let depression talk for you????
Quote from: Vanna on November 14, 2008, 05:20:10 AM
No i believe suicide should be stopped. Nature and society has devised so many other ways of killing us off that we owe it to ourselves it find ways in the meantime of stopping that.
I find this thinking intriguing considering that the planet is clearly showing signs of over population and is fighting back against us already. We are obviously not in tune with nature yet you want to fight even harder to keep tipping that balance further in a direction we clearly cannot win.
Quote from: Emme on November 14, 2008, 05:52:16 AM
3) Food shortage. While there are areas of the world facing a starvation crisis, food really isn't an issue. Money, profit and greed, yes. Actually producing the food in ample amounts, not so much.
Our oceans have been clearly over-fished, it has been shown we cannot keep increasing production of meat and many crops are being effected by global warming. How much longer we can keep oing at teh current rate of growth or even the current state is questionable at best.
No my point was i believe in the santity of human life, we only have the one i know of and it makes me cry to see it wasted.
Yes i agree with your points Emme but i have walked both side of that fence, being a suicidee and now doing my best to help others in the same position.
Altimately as a race we have choice, i have never and would never if you ever knew me in real life impose my will on others.
However if i see someone in pain and real danger i have an issue with standing by and watching people suffer. If one you have helped they still decide and want to die that is free will and thats all you can do in life.
Im a caring person i cant help that.
I feel personally that our right to choose is the most fundamental thing that makes us human. Will, or "Free Will", if you will :P is what separates us from, as far as we know, all the rest of the animal kingdom. If somebody chooses to end his or her life, I have no right to prevent that - preventing it is coercion, which is violence, which is wrong. Which is not to say I am going to stand idly by, but trying to convince a person and providing alternatives is not the same as locking that person up in a padded cell.
There are situations where suicide is a valid choice. Deciding which situations those might be are determinations we can only make for ourselves - nobody else.
~Simone.
Then there are those who do not have the will to do it themselves and they got out in society and break laws do drugs and prostitution put themselves in the most dangerous situations and challenge the cops to kill them . It is also suicide but forcing someone else to do it. Then people will have compassion for them? what happened to the compassion when they are alive?
Quote from: lisagurl on November 14, 2008, 11:38:21 AM
Then there are those who do not have the will to do it themselves and they got out in society and break laws do drugs and prostitution put themselves in the most dangerous situations and challenge the cops to kill them . It is also suicide but forcing someone else to do it. Then people will have compassion for them? what happened to the compassion when they are alive?
Part of that is trying to avoid the taboo of suicide. Afterall, if a cop kills you, even if you wanted to die, is it really considered a suicide by the masses?
Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 14, 2008, 04:46:53 AM
Quote from: Terra on November 14, 2008, 04:40:46 AM
So this leaves a core question. Is there any reason besides religion that denies the validity of the right to take one's own life?
Selfishness on the part of those wanting the person to stick around despite living in pain.
(you did not ask for good ones)
You are right, I did not say they had to be 'good' ones. This is a matter of opinion, as are most things that society considers 'normal' and 'moral'.
The problem is how we try to 'help' the people who actively pursue suicide. I have heard, and experienced, cases of people being sent to psych wards to be observed. In my own case, it was probably among the worst 3 days of my life. Not because I had tried to kill myself, but because my treatment was so horrible. I wasn't a druggie or self mutilator or anything else that put me in the usual boxes. So for hours a day I had to sit around doing nothing but sit. I couldn't even sleep away the day until noon and we got up at 6am.
i saw a counselor once, and a social worker twice. This was how much effort they put into me to try and figure out why I would kill myself. I hadn't even tried to kill myself yet, never mind the people who might have actually tried and failed. After those three days I was discharged and led outside the gate, they didn't even try to see if I had a home or get me shelter. All in all I came to believe psych wards were to encourage suiciders to get it right the first time. I honestly believe that those three days were some of my worst days on this planet, and actually made me want to commit suicide even more.
So personal experiences aside, I feel that if we cannot provide resources to help prevent suicide. If we wish to make it illegal and a felony. If we even wish to brand people, and i've seen this done in families, a coward and disown them. If we wish to force people to live and not give them reasons to live, how can it be said they are selfish and uncaring to loved ones?
I would go so far to say that the people who force the ones to live are selfish. We are pack rats in nature, we cherish and assign values to things. So when someone wants to die, to take themselves out of our possession, we rebel against it. otherwise we are forced to give up something we cherish, and most of us have problems with that.
Suicide by cop is a suicide method in which a person deliberately acts in a threatening way, with the goal of provoking a lethal response from a law enforcement officer, such as being shot to death.
QuoteLeeland Eisenberg, who took hostages in one of Hillary Clinton's campaign offices in December 2007, claimed afterwards it was an attempted suicide by cop
QuoteKip Kinkel, a school shooter, attempted suicide-by-cop but was subdued by pepper spray instead
Terra hun I can't know the extent of your depression from reading a few posts. I can encourage you to do everything you can to educate yourself and seek out appropriate treatment. This takes a real commitment. It can take a couple years to find the right medication, or combination of medications, simply because they take 30 to 60 days to begin working and more time to see if the side effects are tolerable. You have to go to weekly appointments so the doctors can evaluate all this. Attending a support group is also advisable.
And as someone else said, you must take care of your body. Alcohol, drugs, caffiene and nicotene and a poor diet can exacerbate the symptoms. Daily excercise is also vitally important. I'd also suggest that many of your problems are the product of youth and you will outgrow them with time and maturity. It's hard to see now but believe me, living life has a way of teaching you what you're doing wrong.
You say you want to live, so the question is not whether anyone should stop you from committing suicide, it's what are you going to do to help yourself. There is support out there but you have to want it enough to find it and do the footwork and show you are serious and self-disciplined enough to stick with it.
I do have some experience with this, I'd be glad to share anything I can with you if it will be helpful.
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 02:54:49 PM
Terra hun I can't know the extent of your depression from reading a few posts. I can encourage you to do everything you can to educate yourself and seek out appropriate treatment. This takes a real commitment. It can take a couple years to find the right medication, or combination of medications, simply because they take 30 to 60 days to begin working and more time to see if the side effects are tolerable. You have to go to weekly appointments so the doctors can evaluate all this. Attending a support group is also advisable.
And as someone else said, you must take care of your body. Alcohol, drugs, caffiene and nicotene and a poor diet can exacerbate the symptoms. Daily excercise is also vitally important. I'd also suggest that many of your problems are the product of youth and you will outgrow them with time and maturity. It's hard to see now but believe me, living life has a way of teaching you what you're doing wrong.
You say you want to live, so the question is not whether anyone should stop you from committing suicide, it's what are you going to do to help yourself. There is support out there but you have to want it enough to find it and do the footwork and show you are serious and self-disciplined enough to stick with it.
I do have some experience with this, I'd be glad to share anything I can with you if it will be helpful.
Thank you for your concern Kelleygurl. i thought some people were thinking about this, but wasn't sure. Please understand that though I am probably chronically or maniac depressed, I am taking meds for it and talking to people. As I said I am not planning or attempting suicide. I use myself because I can use myself as an example, this is not a posting of intention to commit suicide or me looking for confirmation from others that suicide is ok.
The reason I started this post was because I noticed that whenever I talked about suicide and that I have thoughts almost daily of suicide I notice that talk of going to the psych wards tends to pop up. This along with promising to not commit suicide is quite common. I finally told one psychologist that if she wanted blood and a guarantee that I would commit suicide that the way to do it would be to force me to go to a psych ward, I had no intention of killing myself and would not be threatened into doing something I didn't want to do. Law be damned. To this date I tell her when the feelings get worse and she helps me through them, but talk of police custody and psych visits have stopped.
It was this incident that made me realize that we don't usually try to understand the person who suffers before we try and restrain them 'for their own good' and to 'protect them from themselves'. To me, that sounds slightly fascist. It is us putting our wants and needs over the individual's. I used to beleive that it was cowardly and selfish to hurt others in such a way as suicide. It was giving up in its ultimate form. This was before I tasted those dark depths and still taste them everyday. Where everyday is literally emotional pain that I can't seem to move on from. Maybe i'm weak in that regard, but I haven't given up on this life yet. However I can understand why someone would want to do it, and it is from that understanding that I find myself unable to blame them for the aftermath that suicide leaves behind.
So while I find it sad, it is no different in my eyes then crossing a desert with limited supplies. Some just won't make it to the other side, no matter how much you try to help those who travel with you. Some people just won't be strong enough to make it and will fall down and die. To that extent, though you may start the journey thinking that you would never give up like that, until you are given the acid test there is no way to be sure how you truly will respond.
Suicide is not a rational choice for healthy people. It is most often due to Major Depressive Disorder, a psychitric illness that can almost always be succesfully treated. Depression is caused by an imbalance of neuro-transmitters in the brain. I've been to the suicide place. It is filled with dispare and hopelesness. But I was wrong. There was and is hope for recovery. It requires hard work and dedication to get there but it can be done. Try medications. If one doesn't work for you, try another one.
There are a number of people that have survived the plunge from the Golden Gate Bridge. It's a long drop so a person has a few moments to think about what they've done. Invariably they recall thinking the same thing; "why did I do this, it was a huge mistake". Life is about struggle and pain as well as excitement and ecstacy. Fight for it, you're worth it!
Quote from: Claire de Lune on November 15, 2008, 02:12:05 AM
There are a number of people that have survived the plunge from the Golden Gate Bridge. It's a long drop so a person has a few moments to think about what they've done. Invariably they recall thinking the same thing; "why did I do this, it was a huge mistake". Life is about struggle and pain as well as excitement and ecstacy. Fight for it, you're worth it!
*shakes her head* That is rationalization. Which most of us come up with to justify what normally is spur of the moment thinking. The only difference between a good choice and a bad choice is the outcome, and when you stand at the crossroads of decision most of us take the one we think will lead to the best outcome. Usually this is done without complete information or even fully developed thought as to the outcome.
After we make that decision we come up quickly with the reasons for why we did it. Usually these reasons become clearer as time passes or even more complex. Very rarly do we truely make decisions with a full mental plan before we take action. If you want proof of that then ask yourself why there are so many crimes commited in the heat of the moment. The number of murders and such that are truely planned out are far outnumbered by the ones committed in the heat of the moment, such as crimes of passion.
In regards to suicide, if given time to think they might regret it, but so does anyone doing something mundane and getting second thoughts. Heck, even transfolk who
know they have to transition have second thoughts. Everyone has doubts, to say that this is sufficient to discredit someone's right to take their own life is a shaky position.
Quote from: Terra on November 15, 2008, 12:06:32 AM
It was this incident that made me realize that we don't usually try to understand the person who suffers before we try and restrain them 'for their own good' and to 'protect them from themselves'. To me, that sounds slightly fascist. It is us putting our wants and needs over the individual's.
That's absolutely the sum of it for me. If somebody is obviously suffering to the point where they wish death rather than to go on living, and you cannot provide them with an alternative, then it's purely selfish to prevent that person from doing what they have chosen to do. The key is to get to know a person and their situation, and then help that person think laterally in terms of alternative ways of alleviating the suffering. If that is not possible, for example terminal illness or whatever other reason, euthanasia should be an allowable option. Keeping people alive "for their own good" and because "suicide is a sin" or whatever is a load of BS.
~Simone.
Quote from: Terra on November 15, 2008, 03:19:59 AM
*shakes her head* That is rationalization. Which most of us come up with to justify what normally is spur of the moment thinking. The only difference between a good choice and a bad choice is the outcome, and when you stand at the crossroads of decision most of us take the one we think will lead to the best outcome. Usually this is done without complete information or even fully developed thought as to the outcome.
Studies have shown a large percentage of bridge jumpers are spur of the moment suicides, not something planned in advance. They are not yet sure why bridges attract or cause this type of attempts at suicide.
Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 15, 2008, 05:34:50 AM
They are not yet sure why bridges attract or cause this type of attempts at suicide.
I suppose it's a combination of convenience and access. Shooting, hanging, jumping off-of buildings - those all take time, during which the person might reconsider the suicide. A bridge is just ... there, ready to be used.
~Simone.
Quote from: lady amarant on November 15, 2008, 05:45:59 AM
Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 15, 2008, 05:34:50 AM
They are not yet sure why bridges attract or cause this type of attempts at suicide.
I suppose it's a combination of convenience and access. Shooting, hanging, jumping off-of buildings - those all take time, during which the person might reconsider the suicide. A bridge is just ... there, ready to be used.
~Simone.
That is part of it but they say there is much more to it.
The documentary "The Bridge" talks about it some.
Thanks hon, I'll keep an eye out for the doccie.
~Simone.
Quote from: lady amarant on November 15, 2008, 05:45:59 AM
Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 15, 2008, 05:34:50 AM
They are not yet sure why bridges attract or cause this type of attempts at suicide.
I suppose it's a combination of convenience and access. Shooting, hanging, jumping off-of buildings - those all take time, during which the person might reconsider the suicide. A bridge is just ... there, ready to be used.
~Simone.
Almost all jumpers of the GG Bridge jump on the side facing San Francisco, which is the most watched part of the bridge. Almost no one jumps facing the side that looks out over the Pacific Ocean. ???
Posted on: 15 November 2008, 09:47:33
Quote from: Terra on November 15, 2008, 03:19:59 AM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on November 15, 2008, 02:12:05 AM
There are a number of people that have survived the plunge from the Golden Gate Bridge. It's a long drop so a person has a few moments to think about what they've done. Invariably they recall thinking the same thing; "why did I do this, it was a huge mistake". Life is about struggle and pain as well as excitement and ecstacy. Fight for it, you're worth it!
*shakes her head* That is rationalization. Which most of us come up with to justify what normally is spur of the moment thinking. The only difference between a good choice and a bad choice is the outcome, and when you stand at the crossroads of decision most of us take the one we think will lead to the best outcome. Usually this is done without complete information or even fully developed thought as to the outcome.
After we make that decision we come up quickly with the reasons for why we did it. Usually these reasons become clearer as time passes or even more complex. Very rarly do we truely make decisions with a full mental plan before we take action. If you want proof of that then ask yourself why there are so many crimes commited in the heat of the moment. The number of murders and such that are truely planned out are far outnumbered by the ones committed in the heat of the moment, such as crimes of passion.
In regards to suicide, if given time to think they might regret it, but so does anyone doing something mundane and getting second thoughts. Heck, even transfolk who know they have to transition have second thoughts. Everyone has doubts, to say that this is sufficient to discredit someone's right to take their own life is a shaky position.
The illustrative anecdote wasn't the crux of my argument. Simply stated that is:
1. Most suicide is caused by depression.
2. Depression is a mental illness. A brain abnormality, much like transsexuality.
3. The mental illness can be effectivtily treated in most instances.
Therefore, one should seek treatment when symptoms present, not take the more harmfull course of self-immolation.
Posted on: 15 November 2008, 09:55:11
Quote from: lady amarant on November 15, 2008, 05:45:59 AM
Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 15, 2008, 05:34:50 AM
They are not yet sure why bridges attract or cause this type of attempts at suicide.
I suppose it's a combination of convenience and access. Shooting, hanging, jumping off-of buildings - those all take time, during which the person might reconsider the suicide. A bridge is just ... there, ready to be used.
~Simone.
It's not like it's sitting in the middle of the city. It does take some effort to get there. Likely 30 mins or so on public transit. Then there is the walk over the cantalever portion of the bridga to the main span and to it center. I'm sure there are a lot of people that change there mind before they get there.
Quote from: Claire de Lune on November 15, 2008, 11:03:07 AM
It's not like it's sitting in the middle of the city. It does take some effort to get there. Likely 30 mins or so on public transit. Then there is the walk over the cantalever portion of the bridga to the main span and to it center. I'm sure there are a lot of people that change there mind before they get there.
No, people will just casually be walking across and suddenly decide it's a good idea.
Yes, many do plan it, but a lot just suddenly do it without being suicidal prior to that moment. Some who survived said they just felt an urge to jump for no reason.
Also you mentioned at the GG they tend to prefer one side, it is not just at that bridge. That is the trend for some reason at all bridges that have high rates of suicide.
Quote from: Terra on November 14, 2008, 04:40:46 AM
Is there any reason besides religion that denies the validity of the right to take one's own life?
There's no enforcement procedure that can prevent it. Whether or not or why and why not I agree or disagree with someone offing herself just isn't relevant to whether or not she can and will do so.
Nikki
Almost all jumpers of the GG Bridge jump on the side facing San Francisco, which is the most watched part of the bridge. Almost no one jumps facing the side that looks out over the Pacific Ocean.
Well, the side facing the City is the ped side, the other side (West) is reserved for bikes.
National Survivors of Suicide Day
Saturday, November 22, 2008
9:30 a.m. – 12:45 p.m.
Langley Porter Psychiatric Institute
401 Parnassus Ave, Room 190
Every year thousands of survivors of suicide loss nationwide will share in a day of healing and empowerment through the 10th annual National Survivors of Suicide Day sponsored by the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention (AFSP). Broadcast live via web, satellite, and DVD to more than 100 local conference sites nationwide, the day allows survivors to connect with others who have lost loved ones to suicide.
UCSF Department of Psychiatry psychologist, Beverly Lehr, PhD, and chief resident, Melissa Nau, MD, will moderate a discussion group after the DVD broadcast for attendees to share and ask questions. This event is free and open to anyone who has lost loved ones to suicide. Click here to learn about the 2008 panelists and speakers. The program will also be available online at www.afsp.org. Coffee and pastries will be provided.
Please share this event with patients, colleagues, family, and friends.
Event listing: http://psych.ucsf.edu/events.aspx?id=2526
To learn more about
National Survivors of Suicide Day,
please vist http://www.afsp.org
The mistaken assumption being made in this situation is that death is somehow a release from pain. I'll never understand why people insist on believing this completely unfounded fantasy that just because it is unexplored to them, it will somehow magically fix everything.
Instead, think of this in terms of running away - to a different place. When does that ever solve anything? It doesn't, you just bring your problems and scars with you, and history ends up repeating itself. Trust me, I've seen it a thousand times before, running away doesn't help.
Life's problems can only be solved when you are alive, anything else simply seperates you from the ability to do anything about them. Consider that when you're looking for a way out, if you choose the easy way, you may instead actually be trapping yourself even further in.
Truth Seeker
Quote from: Truth Seeker on November 26, 2008, 09:44:28 AM
The mistaken assumption being made in this situation is that death is somehow a release from pain. I'll never understand why people insist on believing this completely unfounded fantasy that just because it is unexplored to them, it will somehow magically fix everything.
Instead, think of this in terms of running away - to a different place. When does that ever solve anything? It doesn't, you just bring your problems and scars with you, and history ends up repeating itself. Trust me, I've seen it a thousand times before, running away doesn't help.
Life's problems can only be solved when you are alive, anything else simply seperates you from the ability to do anything about them. Consider that when you're looking for a way out, if you choose the easy way, you may instead actually be trapping yourself even further in.
Truth Seeker
"Mistaken assumption" and "the esay way out"?
I tend to agree with being against suicide, Seeker.
But I think there are some
a priori presumtions at work in your thinking as well.
As you point out, quite correctly, there's no evidence that suicde will release one from whatever pain and trouble currently affects the life of the person in question.
I'm rather conflicted, however, where you find the "evidence" that the choice of suicide is "mistaken" or "easy." I'd imagine that until one dies one wouldn't be privy to that knowledge, that she'd only have a preference based on her own view of life and living and the imagination of what might ensue afterwards, provided, of course, there is an afterwards other than that which is inherent in the equivalence of energy and matter and the scientific fact that both are, as best we can discover, eternal.
Nichole
Well there are ways to study the spiritual effects of death and the consequences therein, provided you can be open-minded and patient enough to follow those threads of study.
But this forum strikes me as not really an appropriate place for those veins of thought, and I certainly wouldn't want to come off as
priori for my beliefs. :P So never mind.
Quote from: Nichole on November 26, 2008, 10:11:23 AM
provided, of course, there is an afterwards other than that which is inherent in the equivalence of energy and matter and the scientific fact that both are, as best we can discover, eternal.
Nichole
Who said it has to be something
other than that scientific fact? This being true, the question is where, or in what state would you like to
spend your eternity?
Still, I'll bow out, as metaphysical views/beliefs are apparently a little controvertial for an ordinary forum like this. :P
Truth Seeker
Quote from: Emme on November 26, 2008, 10:41:13 AM
Not at all. You are most welcome to your beliefs, and I, as a point in fact, enjoy hearing other viewpoints even if I disagree.
Thank you, but I think I'll step around that particular landmine. :) Wouldn't want to provoke an uneccesary debate. I don't mind discussing the original angle of the topic however.
Quote from: Emme on November 26, 2008, 10:41:13 AM
However, the question was should we really stop suicide? Now, as I see it, this basically breaks down as Should we, as a society, force our beliefs onto an individual regardless of whether they subscribe to these beliefs or not?
Now see, that's interesting... because I see that question in a totally different light.
To me it's asking "should we try to save people from suicide", rather than any indication of
force.
I have stopped suicide before, several times. With words, carefully constructed arguments, providing a shoulder to cry on and a
lot of patience. Now don't get me wrong, I am certainly not suggesting anyone else try this, in fact I would make a point of warning you all to simply recomend counselling in that situation, you should NOT try to take it upon yourself to fix someone.
Nevertheless, I still read that question of asking should we
try to stop suicide, not should we force ourselves upon others. In other words, should we discourage people from doing it, try to talk them out of it, try to help in some way, or just generally not condone it? In my opinion, absolutely. Every life is prescious, so to me, someone commiting suicide is just the same as commiting murder - the loss is the same at the end of the day.
If someone I loved were to try to commit suicide, would I try to stop them? Absolutely. On blind reflex I would try to protect them, even if it does mean breaking my own philosophy of freedom being the most important thing in life, but that doesn't mean I think I
should do so. I wouldn't exactly be thinking clearly in a situation like that, I'm sure.
But would I
accept it? No. The only kind of suicide I can condone is that which ends a painful, terminal illness, and even then I would encourage they learn to deal with the pain. But a mercy killing is still just a mercy killing, even if suicidal, and that can be acceptible in my opinion. In any other situation? No, I would not accept it, and I would try to talk them out of it.
I wouldn't WANT to force my views on them, but when push comes to shove I probably would anyway, simply through instinct to keep them safe. Hypocritical maybe, but as I said, that wouldn't really be a conscious choice so much as a reflex.
Quote from: Emme on November 26, 2008, 10:41:13 AM
Some wounds can't be healed and some breaks can't be mended.
This, I disagree with. Other than the mercy killing argument I just made, I believe that all wounds of the heart can be healed or dealt with over time. Suicide may not be an easy thing to do, but it's still the easier way out, and as such, in my opinion, a cowardly one. Life's problems can only be fixed while alive, even if you don't believe in an afterlife, the suicide itself still does not actually
mend them.
Truth Seeker
No, Seeker, didn't mean to try and suggest an argument at all. Just another pov is all.
I just found your post to have rather much an "angle" instead of a "seeking" position in this case. So, in some ways, I would suppose, your truth-search has been a successful one for you?
There are any number of breaks and wounds that cannot be healed, at least from the perspective of someone who's worked a long time with those we refer to as "persistently mentally ill." No amount of reason or medication seems able to get to the core of the problem with some folks.
I have experienced pain as well as I am sure everyone who's posted here has experienced it. For me, they have healed and do heal and I have every expectation that they will continue to do so. But, I've also worked with any number of people who defy the tenets of both medicational wisdom and cognitive-behavioral or dialectical-behavioral or even relational-cultural modes of having them see and believe that the pains they hold onto are able to be healed.
Thus, I am often left with the notion that what applies to many, most even, doesn't apply to all human beings.
Faith can be an excellent source of healing for some, but for others it's quite as much a blank-wall as the notion of suicide seems to be for you.
Like Emme I'd be devastated at the death of someone I loved; but, having had that occur a few times, I also realize that stopping that suicide was an impossible task. One makes entreaties and tries to rationalize with another about not taking that step, but, to be very honest, I cannot see it as "cowardly." Nor can I see my intyerventions as having been "successful" in that regard for those people.
That (cowardly) simply loads up the language and becomes the shame/guilt reasoning for not doing or doing a thing that I find not a lot different than telling one of my children, "because I said so."
In actuality I quite agree with you in that I do believe things can mostly be healed, or like to think that anyway. Oth, some things appear to not be amenable to the healing, in all respects, that we have available.
Seeing therapists can be a very positive means of coping with sorrow and devastation for people who make a decision to commit to getting better if they can. But, no therapist has any power to divert someone who refuses to be diverted. There's no therapy that is any good if the client isn't buying into the need and has no desire to "get better."
My experience also suggests to me that some people may have certain deeply-seated biologies and mental conditionings that absolutely preclude them "getting better."
Plus, I also have a nagging notion that our firm exhortations to "struggle-against-the tide" may be as wrong-headed as emotional advice as they would be were you and I to be swimming on a wild river.
Perhaps comfort, solace and change might be available more often if we learned a bit more about allowing a current to be a current and we allow ourselves to "go with the flow."
Mother didn't choose to place me in a world where I have radical control of things. Instead I live in a world of contingencies so much stronger than I am in so many cases that I cannot understand or struggle against them without wearing myself into a depression and the possibility of drowning emotionally and mentally.
Sometimes all the struggle I can make is not enough to overcome the difficuty at hand.
Nichole
Quote from: Truth Seeker on November 26, 2008, 10:55:03 AM
But would I accept it? No. The only kind of suicide I can condone is that which ends a painful, terminal illness, and even then I would encourage they learn to deal with the pain. But a mercy killing is still just a mercy killing, even if suicidal, and that can be acceptible in my opinion. In any other situation? No, I would not accept it, and I would try to talk them out of it.
Define terminal illness and pain.
Mental anguish can be far worse than a lot of physical pain and it can be terminal. Just because help is sometimes available, does not mean they have access to it, or the ability to get themselves to that help.
As for trying to get them to live with the pain, that can be read as being selfish on your part, but also, and more importantly, I have to wonder if you have ever truly suffered.
I do however agree that a lot of suicides are pointless, especially younger ones and at the same time, who are we to judge. You don't know what that person may have been going through, and what the suicide is blamed on, may have only been the last straw.
Also, you should not place blame or fault anyone because they were not strong enough.
QuoteAlso, you should not place blame or fault anyone because they were not strong enough.
Survival of the fittest?
Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 26, 2008, 03:54:40 PM
Define terminal illness and pain.
Terminal as in
terminal. That which eventually
kills you, and pain as a symptom of that.
That's the only situation which can even remotely be considered hopeless, in my opinion.
Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 26, 2008, 03:54:40 PM
Mental anguish can be far worse than a lot of physical pain and it can be terminal.
No it can't. Except perhaps through some psychosomatic effect like broken heart syndrome. People don't drop dead from being very sad.
Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 26, 2008, 03:54:40 PM
Just because help is sometimes available, does not mean they have access to it, or the ability to get themselves to that help.
True, but the capability for helping oneself is always there, even when it
seems impossible.
Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 26, 2008, 03:54:40 PM
As for trying to get them to live with the pain, that can be read as being selfish on your part, but also, and more importantly, I have to wonder if you have ever truly suffered.
If you're going to try and make this personal then I will not waste my time discussing this with you. I will only respond to mature arguments, not juvenile distractions, what I have or have not experienced has no relevance in this discussion.
There is nothing selfish about trying to get someone to make peace with themselves save from the fact that I don't like to see someone suffer, nevertheless the deed itself is by definition, selfless. There are many people out there suffering from agonizing terminal diseases, who are living their lives to the fullest right as we speak.
I'm sure they'd be glad to know that had you been their friend, you would have safety given up on them the moment things got tough. Me, I like to encourage positivity.
Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 26, 2008, 03:54:40 PM
I do however agree that a lot of suicides are pointless, especially younger ones and at the same time, who are we to judge. You don't know what that person may have been going through, and what the suicide is blamed on, may have only been the last straw.
I'm sorry, are you saying that
you judge "a lot of suicides" to be pointless, or we
should not judge any suicides to be pointless? You see I got confused at the part where you
blatantly contradicted yourself.
Maybe it's only acceptable to say that suicides are pointless when we are maintaining a safe distance from any reprisal by refusing to actually define exactly
which ones are pointless and which are acceptable? It's much easier to judge others when you are straddling the fence.
Quote from: Leslie Ann on November 26, 2008, 03:54:40 PM
Also, you should not place blame or fault anyone because they were not strong enough.
I have not. But if I had, at least it's not as bad as accusing someone of doing something they clearly didn't do, in order to set a negative slant on their involvement in the debate from that point on. :) Yes I'm very glad I didn't do that, because then it would look like I was being childish and manipulative.
See, I can be subtle too.
Now let's raise the bar of this conversation back up to the adult level shall we.
Truth Seeker
Leslie said "I do however agree that a lot of suicides are pointless", not "appear pointless", this clearly implies the latter meaning.
Perhaps I didn't understand her intended meaning, but if so that's because she didn't word it properly.
Quote from: Emme on November 26, 2008, 05:11:56 PM
It's pointless for people to serve me smoked oysters. I won't eat them. I don't judge those who serve them to me though. It's the same principle. The fact that you're nitpicking over word choices and trying to split hairs is probably a good indication we should all agree to disagree and let the matter rest.
I agree. That's why personally I would never judge anyone for their beliefs. I wouldn't, for example, begin making personal judgments about them or their experiences based on their beliefs or be dismissive of their arguments purely because I don't agree with their conclusions.
If you are pro suicide or against suicide, you're cool by me. I don't judge. :) My personal beliefs however, are against suicide. I hope that doesn't offend anyone or make them feel insecure, but I don't appologize if it does.
Truth Seeker
Quote from: Nichole on November 26, 2008, 10:11:23 AM
"Mistaken assumption" and "the esay way out"?
I tend to agree with being against suicide, Seeker.
But I think there are some a priori presumtions at work in your thinking as well.
As you point out, quite correctly, there's no evidence that suicde will release one from whatever pain and trouble currently affects the life of the person in question.
I'm rather conflicted, however, where you find the "evidence" that the choice of suicide is "mistaken" or "easy." I'd imagine that until one dies one wouldn't be privy to that knowledge, that she'd only have a preference based on her own view of life and living and the imagination of what might ensue afterwards, provided, of course, there is an afterwards other than that which is inherent in the equivalence of energy and matter and the scientific fact that both are, as best we can discover, eternal.
Nichole
While you're naval gazing about suicide, Nichole, please remember that under the law you have an obligation as a mental health professional to take action to prevent the act. Failing to take reasonable measures to prevent a suicide would at the very least subject you to liability under malpractice law and depending on the degree of negligence, professional sanction as well.
Suicide and Clinical Practice, Chapter 9, P. 148 (http://books.google.com/books?id=mTuoxob0ByQC&pg=PA148&lpg=PA148&dq=professional+duty+suicide&source=web&ots=4AkI8ZRI7b&sig=zn_GjrySbFoXCHjNYgiPk1cEn04&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result)
Gosh, Claire, I wonder how I ever managed to do my job before you started reading my posts?
Let's take a look at point one in your cited reference. Hmmm, professional relationship .... Lemme see, Claire, any professional relationships with anyone on these boards? Nope, none.
Case closed.
N~
More times than most, people go ahead with it with out saying a word.
Then its too late to do anything.
Usually when some one says 'im going too kill myself' or 'i want too' means, they feel like dying but want a chance of help weather they want to live or not.
My theory is, you cant be there 24/7.
Quote from: mr_marc on December 09, 2008, 02:10:42 PM
More times than most, people go ahead with it with out saying a word.
Then its too late to do anything.
Usually when some one says 'im going too kill myself' or 'i want too' means, they feel like dying but want a chance of help weather they want to live or not.
My theory is, you cant be there 24/7.
Actually most cases have a history of giving hits to suicidal thoughts. however most people assume they are joking or would never actually do it.
Truth Seeker, I understand what you are saying, and I can see why you and others might think like that. However don't forget that a pain one person can overcome may be insurmountable by another. Using myself as an example and a n extreme one at that, I was raped. I got over it mostly as time went by, but another of my friends who is a genetic female couldn't. She failed her attempt and was locked up.
Pain is pain, and as I mentioned I have chronic depression. I have suffered from it since I was a child. In fact I remember several times growing up and having people worried about me being depressed when I thought I was having a great day. Would this be terminal, and would it be permissible for someone like me to commit suicide?
What is it that makes one case a mercy killing and not suicide, and therefore not wrong? Who makes these decisions? Who would have to suffer to what point before they would get the green light?
Life is a gift, I won't argue that.I also won't argue that a person who dies by their own hand is tragic. But what I will argue is that it isn't their choice to make. A person's life is their own, and sometimes a person chooses to take their own life. It is their life to take if you argue it is their life to take charge of. I still don't see anyone really pointing out a contradiction to this statement.
Quote from: lisagurl on November 13, 2008, 09:31:44 AM
'Seems" is part of the sickness. There are always other options.
Not if you are at the point of suicide, there is only two, life or death. It's that simple, and everything else doesn't exist. The "options" are the one thing people who haven't been there assume those who are there see. Nothing could be farther from reality and the truth.
But would I talk someone out of suicide. Having been there, yes I would, but not because there are options, but to understand them. Suicide isn't about the person, but their circumstances. And it's not about the others or worse the survivors, it's about the one and their world.
And unless you're prepared to be their friend for a long time, sometimes almost a lifetime, you should be careful what you do. Abandonment by trusted friends only hurts more. They need to know you are always there and a friend to trust and listen.
Just a few thoughts.
Quote from: Terra on December 13, 2008, 03:00:43 AM
Pain is pain, and as I mentioned I have chronic depression. I have suffered from it since I was a child. In fact I remember several times growing up and having people worried about me being depressed when I thought I was having a great day. Would this be terminal, and would it be permissible for someone like me to commit suicide?
Have you seen a specialist? Just curious. Have you explored Dysthymia? It's chronic depression, and sometimes lifelong, and usually genetic (runs in families). There are some excellent books on the subject if you're interested.
It's also easy to get a double depression, where you suffer depression on top your chronic depression. And from personal experience, being Dysthymic, it does lead to the possibility of suicide. You need to understand the symptoms leading to more severe depression to adjust, to what I call "tread water" (meaning life) until it passes.
Good luck.
QuoteNot if you are at the point of suicide, there is only two, life or death. It's that simple, and everything else doesn't exist
If a person refuses to see reality that is a problem with education. It seems our culture is willing and most times rather agree with lies than hurt feelings with the truth. People then get to live in a delusion not having a reality check.
Quote from: lisagurl on December 29, 2008, 11:48:27 AM
If a person refuses to see reality that is a problem with education. It seems our culture is willing and most times rather agree with lies than hurt feelings with the truth. People then get to live in a delusion not having a reality check.
Define reality.
You define it by what you see and experience, everyone's is different. Many are simply unable to see reality as you do, or as most people do. It does not make their reality any less valid.
Education and drugs cannot solve everything, some of these very things contribute to suicide rates.
QuoteDefine reality.
The one that everyone agrees on not what is inside you. The physical world around you that has natural laws.
Now the inside reality is a dream made up by a mind that is not conscious of its own deception. If you do a self check and requirer evidence of what you are experiencing then you can understand what a fool you mind truthfully is.
Quote from: lisagurl on December 30, 2008, 05:05:23 PM
QuoteDefine reality.
The one that everyone agrees on not what is inside you.
No two people see it the same.
And going by the general consensus does not mean it is reality, only that they view it as such. At one time everyone thought the universe revolved around us, that was proven wrong.
QuoteNo two people see it the same.
That is why it is the one everyone one agrees on. Plato said you need to measure, have weight, and calculation then you apply rational reason. What you have is reality whether you are alive or not. Reality is what is without human perception distorting it.
Quote from: Terra on November 13, 2008, 08:34:32 AM
Before I get a bunch of stuff thrown at me let me put forth a scenario.
Lets say someone is chronically depressed, and though they want to live no matter what they do they still suffer. They do what they are supposed to do and get help, even spend time in a psych ward but nothing helps. So while they feel that they still want to live, suicide seems to be the only option. Given that, would it be ok for them to go ahead with it? If you say no, then the question become: do we have the right to tell someone they should live, even force them to, when they don't want to anymore?
Yes, I am describing myself in this question. No i'm not planning suicide, the question stands as a purely philosophical one.
I felt like you when i was 12 and ended up in a mental hospital for two 4 months periods. Well one was for wearing womens clothes. Time went by and i still suffer but i have experienced many things. I know i could have done myself in but i was at the same time curious and also didn't want to hurt my family. I am now in my 50's and last night i cried and begged God to take me but i know that i must not do it myself. I know i must hang in there and continue to keep experiencing the many things i have. I have been able to help many and now i know how much worse the world would be if i didn't stay around. People like you and me are needed very much to help the rest of the world have a sense of humanity. Many times when i was in the mental hospital we would always say we were the normal ones and the rest outside were the crazy ones. We knew we had a heart and we knew that heart was needed to bring some balance in a world that is always leaning in a negative direction. So i say hang around because even if you do take your body out your spirit will still be here watching the world go by and then you will be wishing you could be here to help make a real change. That would be a terible place to be without a shell / body unable to bring peace and love to others and only being a little voice in others ears hoping they hear you as you try to guide them in their earthly lives.
hugs love Danielle :)
EDITED TO ADD: I have a dear friend alexandrea from perth australia who i helped in 2000 with a place to stay while she was in Portland getting GRS with toby meltzer. She then went to DR O and had FFS then she went back to perth and within 6 months took her life. Her mom then took her life within 20 minutes of her daughters death. They both talk to me and try to guide others about what its like being on the other side. They wish none of us would take our lives. They wait for another body in some strange way or frame of time to come back and do it right. When we die we only shed our shells we are still here but then its eternity without being able to reach people except for people who can hear. Jesus says let those who can hear hear.. I hear and i share and i tell you what they tell me and i am just the vehicle the words are not mine so i surrender and know that the words i say are meant for me but if they speak to another then know that is from above and i am just the vehicle for their message to you.
Quote from: lisagurl on January 01, 2009, 09:55:28 AM
QuoteNo two people see it the same.
That is why it is the one everyone one agrees on. Plato said you need to measure, have weight, and calculation then you apply rational reason. What you have is reality whether you are alive or not. Reality is what is without human perception distorting it.
We seem to have lost the point.
You are more or less trying to force everyone to conform to "your reality". Some people cannot, do not and will not regardless of drugs and education. Who is to say they should.
And who is to say that if they do come to see "reality" the way you do that they will be any better off. Sometimes reality is the very problem.
Quoteyour reality
Not my reality I am dead remember just as everyone else. Remember reality is there regardless of humans. You seem to have a hard time understanding the concept of reality outside your own head or mine.
Quote from: Leslie Ann on January 01, 2009, 02:14:02 PM
Quote from: lisagurl on January 01, 2009, 09:55:28 AM
QuoteNo two people see it the same.
That is why it is the one everyone one agrees on. Plato said you need to measure, have weight, and calculation then you apply rational reason. What you have is reality whether you are alive or not. Reality is what is without human perception distorting it.
We seem to have lost the point.
You are more or less trying to force everyone to conform to "your reality". Some people cannot, do not and will not regardless of drugs and education. Who is to say they should.
And who is to say that if they do come to see "reality" the way you do that they will be any better off. Sometimes reality is the very problem.
WISER BEYOND BOOK KNOWLEDGE ;D ;D
Some people think all knowledge is found in a book
you will have to over look them
Quote from: lisagurl on January 01, 2009, 02:35:33 PM
Quoteyour reality
Not my reality I am dead remember just as everyone else. Remember reality is there regardless of humans. You seem to have a hard time understanding the concept of reality outside your own head or mine.
Ah a question of reality, something that is unique upon the beholder. If that were not true than how could so many different life philosophies exist?
But a more prudent argument is about the extent of the reality that affects the depressed person. The 'weight of the world' feeling is that of your reality being crushed down to just you. It is why individuals can commit suicide, after all we have a very, very strong will to live. All humans do and it takes some hardcore rewiring to change that. Religion is one way, it accounts for suicide bombers. Pain is another. For why else is torture employed to extract information? You are in so much pain that even if it hurts those around you, even your loved ones, you give the torturer what they want just to stop the pain. In a way that is what depression to the point of suicide is, torture to keep living and you want the pain to stop.
People can be trained to resist torture, this is true. But usually the training involves resisting torture inflicted on you to train you to resist it. Though therapy helps, there is no real way to resist the allure of suicide. It is alluring though, just as giving up to torture is alluring.
You can help bear the pain, but someone can never take on all of someone's pain. So ultimately it is the individuals not the people around them that decide if they will commit suicide. It is a choice, maybe misinformed but a choice. Though I would love to know where someone can make a completely informed decision, as there is always a chaotic element to any decision.
To be clear, I don't think suicide is the answer to any life problem. I think is
an answer, but I don't think it is
the answer. Just like anything else, there are countless ways to handle the situation, and thus my personal belief is that it is the individual's right to choose their course.
Speaking of reality maybe you should read up on some quantum mechanics, it poses some interesting views on what reality is...
I think it's a voilation of human rights anyways... if you want to die, go ahead but please be nice enough to let us do some medical experiments on you to further our technology so the rest of us can live longer and more comfortably. After all, we are the ones who have to clean you off the floor or wherever =P.
Quote from: Astral on January 04, 2009, 01:39:37 PM
After all, we are the ones who have to clean you off the floor or wherever =P.
Exactly why there should be a facility to deal with it.
It would at least on convenience the rest.
"So Joe how about lunch next Tuesday"
"Well Bob, I have my termination scheduled at 2, can we maybe have lunch at noon first, I don't want to be late"
"Sure thing Joe, and good luck"
But seriously, it would be less of a problem if it were dealt with properly.
Quote from: Leslie Ann on January 04, 2009, 08:57:03 PM
Quote from: Astral on January 04, 2009, 01:39:37 PM
After all, we are the ones who have to clean you off the floor or wherever =P.
Exactly why there should be a facility to deal with it.
It would at least on convenience the rest.
"So Joe how about lunch next Tuesday"
"Well Bob, I have my termination scheduled at 2, can we maybe have lunch at noon first, I don't want to be late"
"Sure thing Joe, and good luck"
But seriously, it would be less of a problem if it were dealt with properly.
...Well that is an interesting viewpoint. I am suddenly reminded of the first episode of Futerama. The scene with the suicide booth specifically.
Quote from: Terra on January 07, 2009, 03:59:57 AM
...Well that is an interesting viewpoint. I am suddenly reminded of the first episode of Futerama. The scene with the suicide booth specifically.
I don't think it should be quite that easy, but I do think people should have the right to end it peacefully.
And while not a big fan of the show, I loved that.
Quote from: Terra on January 07, 2009, 03:59:57 AM
Quote from: Leslie Ann on January 04, 2009, 08:57:03 PM
Quote from: Astral on January 04, 2009, 01:39:37 PM
After all, we are the ones who have to clean you off the floor or wherever =P.
Exactly why there should be a facility to deal with it.
It would at least on convenience the rest.
"So Joe how about lunch next Tuesday"
"Well Bob, I have my termination scheduled at 2, can we maybe have lunch at noon first, I don't want to be late"
"Sure thing Joe, and good luck"
But seriously, it would be less of a problem if it were dealt with properly.
...Well that is an interesting viewpoint. I am suddenly reminded of the first episode of Futerama. The scene with the suicide booth specifically.
So,
Welcome to te Monkey House!...just keep an eye out for Harrison Bergeron.
When I read the title of this I remembered a suicide thread I started a couple of years ago. The responses it generated were very powerful.
Julie
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,6105.msg44894.html#msg44894 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,6105.msg44894.html#msg44894)