It seems like the overwhelming majority of admirers/->-bleeped-<-s are gentlemen of the older variety.
What the french is up with this toast?
EDIT: older meaning 30+ years old.
What's old to you? On the occasions I've done a personal ad I've gotten lot's of replies from men that were too young for me. My cut off is 30 but 40+ is really my preference.
It's stale. :)
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 12:02:18 PM
It seems like the overwhelming majority of admirers/->-bleeped-<-s of gentlemen of the older variety.
->-bleeped-<-s are creeps ... why would anyone want to date a guy who is turned on because you are "trans" ... whatever his age ... ??? ...
Guess its more the older guys who have had to repressed their bi- or homosexuality, or their own CD, TG tendencies, and see dating a transwoman as a "safe" non-challenging outlet for their fantasies ?
I only go for straight guys who see me just as a woman, and would avoid "admirers" like the plague if I ever encountered them (but I never go to those kind of places or to TG dating sites).
Most guys who "come on" to me are at least 10 - 20 years younger than me, and they can be fun until you realise that they just have one thing on their mind !
And I think (especially if you are young yourself) "coming out" to a young guy is maybe more likely to draw an accepting response ?
Laura x
Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 12:48:29 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 12:02:18 PM
It seems like the overwhelming majority of admirers/->-bleeped-<-s of gentlemen of the older variety.
->-bleeped-<-s are creeps ... why would anyone want to date a guy who is turned on because you are "trans" ... whatever his age ... ??? ...
Guess its more the older guys who have had to repressed their bi- or homosexuality, or their own CD, TG tendencies, and see dating a transwoman as a "safe" non-challenging outlet for their fantasies ?
I only go for straight guys who see me just as a woman, and would avoid "admirers" like the plague if I ever encountered them (but I never go to those kind of places or to TG dating sites).
Most guys who "come on" to me are at least 10 - 20 years younger than me, and they can be fun until you realise that they just have one thing on their mind !
And I think (especially if you are young yourself) "coming out" to a young guy is maybe more likely to draw an accepting response ?
Laura x
Actually the majority of admirers are just normal guys that have a thing for transgirls. No hidden gay or trans desires about themselves. It's about a 60/40 cut, 60% being actual normal guys, not closet cases.
Quote from: Kiera on November 14, 2008, 12:58:37 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 12:02:18 PM
It seems like the overwhelming majority of admirers/->-bleeped-<-s are gentlemen of the older variety.
Well thanks Gracie, that's certainly good to know seeing how I'm well over *achm* 30 . . .
Not being "in the market" myself could it be "younger transwomen" is all that is leftover! ;)
:icon_bunch:
> ->;
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 12:51:29 PM
Actually the majority of admirers are just normal guys that have a thing for transgirls. No hidden gay or trans desires about themselves. It's about a 60/40 cut, 60% being actual normal guys, not closet cases.
Yea ya know, for all my "nobody ever wants me!" self-pitying, I do know a number of guys who know about my past and seem... well... "fascinated" by me. Just normal, straight guys, not "->-bleeped-<-s." Both younger and older than me (44), FWIW...
~Kate~
Lol. I don't want people that old!!
!!111111
THOSE ARE MY CONTINUING ED CLASSMATES AGE. EFF THAT.
DX
Quote from: Kate on November 14, 2008, 01:15:20 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 12:51:29 PM
Actually the majority of admirers are just normal guys that have a thing for transgirls. No hidden gay or trans desires about themselves. It's about a 60/40 cut, 60% being actual normal guys, not closet cases.
Yea ya know, for all my "nobody ever wants me!" self-pitying, I do know a number of guys who know about my past and seem... well... "fascinated" by me. Just normal, straight guys, not "->-bleeped-<-s." Both younger and older than me (44), FWIW...
~Kate~
Quote from: Kara-Xen on November 14, 2008, 01:15:34 PM
Lol. I don't want people that old!!
!!111111
THOSE ARE MY CONTINUING ED CLASSMATES AGE. EFF THAT.
DX
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: >:-) See Kate, what I said yesterday. Old for a woman is anything over 40ish and old in the culture is, as usual (or so it was when I was 20 or younger,) anyone exceeding about 30.
The older you get the wronger that seems!! :laugh:
Nichole
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 12:51:29 PM
Actually the majority of admirers are just normal guys that have a thing for transgirls.
Claire, think "normal guys that have a thing for transgirls" is a kinda contradiction ?
"Normal guys"
do not have a thing for women with male equipment, which is what admirers are all about.
Most admirers show no interest in post-op, and the few who specifically look to date a post-op woman must be even more mixed up in their reasons.
Sure a normal guy might accept a pre- or post- transgirl once he finds out ... :o ... but to go specially looking for one ... that's far from normal in my reckoning !
Laura x
If a man is good hearted, honest, loving, caring, and healthy with his emotions. Especially if he shares interests like playing games, collecting dolls and antique soldiers and watching old movies, Enjoyed my cooking, and maintained decent personal hygiene; then I wouldn't care if he were the other side of a hundred!
But, as a fat person, I've dealt with chubby ->-bleeped-<-s all too often. Especially when I was in my 20's and dating. I resented not being a "person" but a sex object. I didn't like that my outside was all that mattered, and when an evening was over I felt empty and lonely, and unhappy. the payoff for me was that for a few minutes I felt attractive and lovable, but that part goes away quick.
The reality is that when you're in a healthy place mentally - that is, when you care enough about yourself to hold up healthy boundaries, the these kind of vultures aren't interested, they realize you won't play their game, or that you aren't on their emotional level. They leave you alone. And then, you're free to explore relationships with a whole better/healthier/saner class of people who appreciate you, but don't objectify you.
At least, that's what I've learned, your milage may vary.
((((Gracie)))) :)
-Brianne
Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 01:21:21 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 12:51:29 PM
Actually the majority of admirers are just normal guys that have a thing for transgirls.
Claire, think "normal guys that have a thing for transgirls" is a kinda contradiction ?
"Normal guys" do not have a thing for women with male equipment, which is what admirers are all about.
Most admirers show no interest in post-op, and the few who specifically look to date a post-op woman must be even more mixed up in their reasons.
Sure a normal guy might accept a pre- or post- transgirl once he finds out ... :o ... but to go specially looking for one ... that's far from normal in my reckoning !
Laura x
I'm not sure where "Claire" came from, but Laura that was a pretty universal round-up for someone who has no experience with the group in the first place.
As far as I know, I've only met a couple of ->-bleeped-<-s, but I'd find it difficult to group every man who would consider being with a woman who was pre or post surgery kinda risky business.
I imagine things are just not as pat as we sometimes imagine.
Nichole
Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 01:21:21 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 12:51:29 PM
Actually the majority of admirers are just normal guys that have a thing for transgirls.
Claire, think "normal guys that have a thing for transgirls" is a kinda contradiction ?
"Normal guys" do not have a thing for women with male equipment, which is what admirers are all about.
Most admirers show no interest in post-op, and the few who specifically look to date a post-op woman must be even more mixed up in their reasons.
Sure a normal guy might accept a pre- or post- transgirl once he finds out ... :o ... but to go specially looking for one ... that's far from normal in my reckoning !
Laura x
I can actually name three good male friends of mine who, if they lived in the same city as myself, would love to have me as their own now and just as much so after SRS. Their words, too. These boys are all closer to my age, though. 19 year old in New Jersey, 24 year old in London, and a 26 year old in Florida. They're all totally not creepy or weird or closeted at all.
Outside of the closet cases, The other guys just have a thing for it. It's no different of a preference other men have for red hair or big boobs or something. I don't see it as any much more than that either.
Posted on: November 14, 2008, 12:30:58 pm
Quote from: Nichole on November 14, 2008, 01:26:05 PM
Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 01:21:21 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 12:51:29 PM
Actually the majority of admirers are just normal guys that have a thing for transgirls.
Claire, think "normal guys that have a thing for transgirls" is a kinda contradiction ?
"Normal guys" do not have a thing for women with male equipment, which is what admirers are all about.
Most admirers show no interest in post-op, and the few who specifically look to date a post-op woman must be even more mixed up in their reasons.
Sure a normal guy might accept a pre- or post- transgirl once he finds out ... :o ... but to go specially looking for one ... that's far from normal in my reckoning !
Laura x
I'm not sure where "Claire" came from, but Laura that was a pretty universal round-up for someone who has no experience with the group in the first place.
As far as I know, I've only met a couple of ->-bleeped-<-s, but I'd find it difficult to group every man who would consider being with a woman who was pre or post surgery kinda risky business.
I imagine things are just not as pat as we sometimes imagine.
Nichole
I'm actually coming from talking with at least a hundred or so different ->-bleeped-<-s and admireers online. Every time I talk to one I have a little survey of questions I like to ask them.
There are the older guys that are usually from Craig's List and AdultFriendFinder. Then there are a ton of them on an image board I frequent which are for the most part in their 20s, and a few handfuls of another large forum site I visit where the ages vary from high school to mid 20s.
The older they are the higher percentage of closet cases gets, it seems.
Which is why the question wasn't directed toward you, Gracie. It was directed toward Laura. :)
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole on November 14, 2008, 01:41:33 PM
Which is why the question wasn't directed toward you, Gracie. It was directed toward Laura. :)
Nichole
Oh okay :P
I don't have an answer for this.. but I wonder how many men who are attracted to transgendered women are trans themselves (even if they don't grasp that reality yet)... I've been attracted to mtf women since my teenage years, but now I know that HAD to be tied up in my own gender identity issues.
Now that I've admitted to myself and others that I am TG, my attraction to other trans people hasn't stopped.. But I do understand it better, and it makes it easier to maintain my monogamous commitment to my cis-gendered wife.
Quote from: mtfbuckeye on November 14, 2008, 01:55:12 PM
I don't have an answer for this.. but I wonder how many men who are attracted to transgendered women are trans themselves (even if they don't grasp that reality yet)... I've been attracted to mtf women since my teenage years, but now I know that HAD to be tied up in my own gender identity issues.
Now that I've admitted to myself and others that I am TG, my attraction to other trans people hasn't stopped.. But I do understand it better, and it makes it easier to maintain my monogamous commitment to my cis-gendered wife.
You are far from the first person who comes to identify as MTF who fits that paradigm, Buckeye.
Nichole
Nichole,
That's good to know.. As for guys in general, If I was into someone I guess I wouldn't mind WHY he liked me if he was kind to me and respectful of me. But that's just my take, as someone who isn't out there fending off drooling guys with a pointy stick. :)
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 01:37:09 PM
I can actually name three good male friends of mine who, if they lived in the same city as myself, would love to have me as their own now and just as much so after SRS. Their words, too. These boys are all closer to my age, though. 19 year old in New Jersey, 24 year old in London, and a 26 year old in Florida. They're all totally not creepy or weird or closeted at all.
Outside of the closet cases, The other guys just have a thing for it. It's no different of a preference other men have for red hair or big boobs or something. I don't see it as any much more than that either. I'm actually coming from talking with at least a hundred or so different ->-bleeped-<-s and admireers online. Every time I talk to one I have a little survey of questions I like to ask them.
There are the older guys that are usually from Craig's List and AdultFriendFinder. Then there are a ton of them on an image board I frequent which are for the most part in their 20s, and a few handfuls of another large forum site I visit where the ages vary from high school to mid 20s.
The older they are the higher percentage of closet cases gets, it seems.
"Outside of the closet cases, The other guys just have a thing for it. It's no different of a preference other men have for red hair or big boobs or something." ... ::)
OK, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with ->-bleeped-<-s, or that a lot of them aren't nice guys and not at all "closet cases", but I think someone looking for a T-girl through Craiglist etc isn't quite a like preference for red hair.
What's someone with your looks and your age doing contacting over a hundred admirers on line anyway ?
Have you actually met these young guys from Florida, New Jersey and London ??
Surely finding a regular boyfriend who you get on with and who likes / loves you as a woman (with no T-girl issues clouding the reason for clicking with each other to begin with) and who accepts you once he knows your background can't be that difficult ?
Even finding a guy on a straight dating or chat site and "telling him" before you meet in the flesh is better than meeting up through a TG site ? You might get lots of rejections but at least you know that there are no underlying dodgy motives in him wanting to be with you.
Laura x
As a 47 year old male, and strictly hetero, who is only at the point of identifying as a CDer up to now I find this a bit ironic, possibly even hypocritical. I could be a candidate for the "creepy" tag.
For the record, from the days the idea sex first entered my mind to now the thought of physical intimacy with a transgirl would be untenable (I could use a much stronger term but I don't want to insult anyone). And if one of you with questionable motives, and you are out there, managed to dupe me into it just to see if you could, it'd take me weeks or possibly months to get ok with myself again.
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 03:30:15 PM
As a 47 year old male, and strictly hetero... the thought of physical intimacy with a transgirl would be untenable...
Do you feel the same way about both pre and post ops?
~Kate~
Yes, I do. That's not to say I couldn't enjoy emotional intimacy with either. The sex thing would be a big problem for me though.
Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 03:15:14 PM
"Outside of the closet cases, The other guys just have a thing for it. It's no different of a preference other men have for red hair or big boobs or something." ... ::)
OK, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with ->-bleeped-<-s, or that a lot of them aren't nice guys and not at all "closet cases", but I think someone looking for a T-girl through Craiglist etc isn't quite a like preference for red hair.
What's someone with your looks and your age doing contacting over a hundred admirers on line anyway ?
Have you actually met these young guys from Florida, New Jersey and London ??
Surely finding a regular boyfriend who you get on with and who likes / loves you as a woman (with no T-girl issues clouding the reason for clicking with each other to begin with) and who accepts you once he knows your background can't be that difficult ?
Even finding a guy on a straight dating or chat site and "telling him" before you meet in the flesh is better than meeting up through a TG site ? You might get lots of rejections but at least you know that there are no underlying dodgy motives in him wanting to be with you.
Laura x
QuoteWhat's someone with your looks and your age doing contacting over a hundred admirers on line anyway ?
What am I doing talking to them? To ask them questions. To feed my curiosity is all. And that line you quoted me on doesn't apply to a handful of the guys on craigs list, but for many it still does, even if those guys are still gross. But everyone on craig's list is gross in general, so that is not a specific thing towards ->-bleeped-<-s.
QuoteHave you actually met these young guys from Florida, New Jersey and London ??
Not in person but I have been close friends with them for at least 3 years now. I talk to them everyday, we're pretty close. I could tell you anything about their lives and they could mine, just like any offline friend. It doesn't matter.
QuoteSurely finding a regular boyfriend who you get on with and who likes / loves you as a woman (with no T-girl issues clouding the reason for clicking with each other to begin with) and who accepts you once he knows your background can't be that difficult ?
Not really. I've yet to be approached by anyone who is interested in me and I don't get out very much since I live pretty far from anywhere exciting. But this has no relevance to the topic of this thread.
QuoteEven finding a guy on a straight dating or chat site and "telling him" before you meet in the flesh is better than meeting up through a TG site ? You might get lots of rejections but at least you know that there are no underlying dodgy motives in him wanting to be with you.
I read people well, especially online. I've never had to worry that someone I might meet will be sketchy or dodgy. But again, this is not the point of the thread. This thread is not about who I am seeking to have a relationship with, it is about the age demographics of ->-bleeped-<-s and admirers. By the way, there is a difference. You seem to be using them interchangeably and you should be aware that that is not entirely correct.
Posted on: November 14, 2008, 03:20:37 pm
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 03:30:15 PM
As a 47 year old male, and strictly hetero, who is only at the point of identifying as a CDer up to now I find this a bit ironic, possibly even hypocritical. I could be a candidate for the "creepy" tag.
For the record, from the days the idea sex first entered my mind to now the thought of physical intimacy with a transgirl would be untenable (I could use a much stronger term but I don't want to insult anyone). And if one of you with questionable motives, and you are out there, managed to dupe me into it just to see if you could, it'd take me weeks or possibly months to get ok with myself again.
I don't understand what you're talking about. Are you insinuating that trans women are trying to trick you into sleeping with them?
I find no ambiguity in my statement. But since you asked let me put it other terms: I would find sex with you to be equally as repulsive as you would with that old man. The hypothetical situation I described was to demonstrate irony and maybe even a bit of hypocrisy I see coming from someone who might also be viewed as "creepy". Pot, meet Kettle.
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 04:39:13 PM
I find no ambiguity in my statement. But since you asked let me put it other terms: I would find sex with you to be equally as repulsive as you would with that old man.
I am actually not that repulsed by older men, but I get what you're trying to convey.
Though I must ask, why a problem with post-op trans women? You'd feel absolutely no difference between them or a cis-gendered female. And if they never told you you'd have no way of knowing.
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 04:42:03 PM
And if they never told you you'd have no way of knowing.
The premise is flawed. You assume that her admission would be the only way to discover it. Also, I've never seen an MTF I didn't believe I couldn't knock off immediately so I doubt I'd ever get fooled anyway.
My main point is that I don't want to be labeled as that creepy old guy you are talking about. I'm here for myself and to be part of the community even though I only identify as CD for now.
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 05:00:49 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 04:42:03 PM
And if they never told you you'd have no way of knowing.
The premise is flawed. You assume that her admission would be the only way to discover it.
It's not flawed. It's a hypothetical question. In this specific scenario, her admission
is the only way to discover it. Besides that, she is the most gorgeous woman you could ever imagine. In this case, why would you still be disgusted? It seems so irrational. Are you just overall picky with women or do you have a reason I have failed to notice?
I'm not putting you down, by the way. I'm just curious, like always.
Lets do this. Lets imagine you met a wonderful guy and you get married. After a perfect 10-year relationship you discover through a third party that he's an axe murderer. You've had 10 wonderful perfect years, he's done absolutely everything right and never once given you reason to doubt him in any way, shape or manner? Would you stay with him?
Gracie (or is it "Claire" as you first introduced yourself to the group ?).
I'm not getting at you, honestly, just that guess I'm way older than you, and I feel I never really get to know anyone properly over the net and skype, certainly not well enough to consider them a "romantic" friend !
I was never really sure whether your question about the age demographic of trans-admirers / ->-bleeped-<-s was general or because of your personal experience.
Like I said before I think admirers do have an element of repressed bisexuality in their background, and young guys are more likely to be open about their sexuallity and try out whatever.
Also a lot of older admirers get turned onto t-girls through porn and fantasy, and I guess the heaviest users of porn tend to be older guys (less you "do" the more you "watch" ?). Guess these are the admirers you avoid !
I have been to clubs in the recent past and found there to be admirers of all ages, but they just seemed to be sad lonely figures, sitting on their own and "hoping for a catch". And the young good looking admirers just seemed so full of themselves, thinking that with a t-girl you didn't need to make an effort, that t-girls were an easy lay.
Also I've been on the scene 20 years ago when the typical admirer really was the stereotypical sad 40+ year old guy in a worn mac ! So even admirers have smartened themselves up.
And as recently as three years ago I've experimented with on line dating, both TG and straight sites, but making my post-op status clear. The hits I've gotten have typically been quite respectable guys, 45 - 65 age, divorced with grown up kids. Read what you want into that ...
Guess I've found that I'm better off finding people in the real world, as I'm socially extrovert and seem to pass 100%. Sure most of the good looking guys are just out for sex, and sometimes they get it.
Kellygurl :QuoteAnd if one of you with questionable motives, and you are out there, managed to dupe me into it just to see if you could, it'd take me weeks or possibly months to get ok with myself again.
So very sorry Kellygurl ... if you "came on" to me and passed my strict "test criterea" I might well have banged you, but I would never have told, and you would never have "guessed" ... so your "revulsion" towards us trans women would not have been a problem for you.
Actually I might have phoned afterwards and told you just to make you "sick" >:(
Laura x
Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 05:19:21 PM
So very sorry Kellygurl ... if you "came on" to me and passed my strict "test criterea" I might well have banged you, but I would never have told, and you would never have "guessed" ... so your "revulsion" towards us trans women would not have been a problem for you.
Actually I might have phoned afterwards and told you just to make you "sick" >:(
Laura x
lol, touche'
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 05:13:53 PM
Lets do this. Lets imagine you met a wonderful guy and you get married. After a perfect 10-year relationship you discover through a third party that he's an axe murderer. You've had 10 wonderful perfect years, he's done absolutely everything right and never once given you reason to doubt him in any way, shape or manner? Would you stay with him?
You seem to have answered my question with a question. I hope you're still planning on answering the question appropriately?
But for the record, yes, I would. But I would call the police and have him arrested, because regardless of how much I love him he is still a criminal.
Posted on: November 14, 2008, 04:23:46 pm
Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 05:19:21 PM
Gracie (or is it "Claire" as you first introduced yourself to the group ?).
I'm not getting at you, honestly, just that guess I'm way older than you, and I feel I never really get to know anyone properly over the net and skype, certainly not well enough to consider them a "romantic" friend !
I was never really sure whether your question about the age demographic of trans-admirers / ->-bleeped-<-s was general or because of your personal experience.
Like I said before I think admirers do have an element of repressed bisexuality in their background, and young guys are more likely to be open about their sexuallity and try out whatever.
Also a lot of older admirers get turned onto t-girls through porn and fantasy, and I guess the heaviest users of porn tend to be older guys (less you "do" the more you "watch" ?). Guess these are the admirers you avoid !
I have been to clubs in the recent past and found there to be admirers of all ages, but they just seemed to be sad lonely figures, sitting on their own and "hoping for a catch". And the young good looking admirers just seemed so full of themselves, thinking that with a t-girl you didn't need to make an effort, that t-girls were an easy lay.
Also I've been on the scene 20 years ago when the typical admirer really was the stereotypical sad 40+ year old guy in a worn mac ! So even admirers have smartened themselves up.
And as recently as three years ago I've experimented with on line dating, both TG and straight sites, but making my post-op status clear. The hits I've gotten have typically been quite respectable guys, 45 - 65 age, divorced with grown up kids. Read what you want into that ...
Guess I've found that I'm better off finding people in the real world, as I'm socially extrovert and seem to pass 100%. Sure most of the good looking guys are just out for sex, and sometimes they get it.
Fair enough. Perhaps if I ever get into the club scene when I turn 21 my opinions might change, but until then...
What does it say about me that damn near every person I've dated or slept with since 1996 was someone I met online (including my wife)? :)
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 05:23:46 PM
You seem to have answered my question with a question. I hope you're still planning on answering the question appropriately?
I posted before I read the modified scenario. The way you have constructed this is still flawed because I don't know if she's TS and am therefore unable to make an informed judgment about what I might do. But I have to admit in that case I would have a difficult time rejecting her. Still, she doesn't exist.
QuoteBut for the record, yes, I would. But I would call the police and have him arrested, because regardless of how much I love him he is still a criminal.
BTW he's not a fugitive. Though guilty, he got off on a technicality. Would you still stay with him?
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 05:37:07 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 05:23:46 PM
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 05:13:53 PM
You seem to have answered my question with a question. I hope you're still planning on answering the question appropriately?
I posted before I read the modified scenario. They way you have constructed this is still flawed because I don't know if she's TS and am therefore unable to make an informed judgment about what I might do. But I have to admit in that case I would have a difficult time rejecting her. Still, she doesn't exist.
But for the record, yes, I would. But I would call the police and have him arrested, because regardless of how much I love him he is still a criminal.
BTW he's not a fugitive. He got off a technicality. Would you still stay with him?
Yes.
Now it's your turn.
QuoteLets do this. Lets imagine you met a wonderful guy and you get married. After a perfect 10-year relationship you discover through a third party that he's an axe murderer. You've had 10 wonderful perfect years, he's done absolutely everything right and never once given you reason to doubt him in any way, shape or manner? Would you stay with him?
If I found out my loved one was really a serial killer or worse, yes I would call the cops and send that person to the slammer.
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 05:13:53 PM
Lets do this. Lets imagine you met a wonderful guy and you get married. After a perfect 10-year relationship you discover through a third party that he's an axe murderer. You've had 10 wonderful perfect years, he's done absolutely everything right and never once given you reason to doubt him in any way, shape or manner? Would you stay with him?
Kelly, think you should consider just how offensive that analogy sounds ?
OK I would never leave it 10 years to tell, my current guy I told after 4 months (and before full blown sex) as I thought he thought things were getting real serious.
QuoteThe premise is flawed. You assume that her admission would be the only way to discover it. Also, I've never seen an MTF I didn't believe I couldn't knock off immediately so I doubt I'd ever get fooled anyway.
OK you're a CD so maybe more perceptive when it comes to "->-bleeped-<- spotting" ... ??? ...
But I've arranged meetings with local TS women who've seen my pics, and who still walked past my table as I was so obviously a woman and not the person they were looking for. And my record of pulling straight guys for repeat dates is embarassing ... like last night when I'd rather not think about how far I went with a guy I'd just met, guess in compensation for John cooling off a bit to me ...
Laura x
I'm pansexual: I'm attracted to people I find attractive, regardless of their equipment. I'm also 39.
So, I'm a creep?
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on November 14, 2008, 05:53:18 PM
I'm pansexual: I'm attracted to people I find attractive, regardless of their equipment. I'm also 39.
So, I'm a creep?
No?
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 05:38:28 PM
Yes.
Now it's your turn.
Sorry, I fudged the code and you quoted me before I fixed it. Re-read the post.
Maybe I'm just being dumb, but I don't see the similarity between someone who intends only to harm another using violence, cruelty, with the ultimate objective of ending a life, and someone who wants to live life to the full, being a productive, active, contributing and integral member of society through the simple act of correcting a defect they were born with in order to do so.
Call me naive, but I always thought you fall in love with the gift, not the wrapping. And if the relationship was perfect to start with, why would any revelation about who a person used to be change that? They aren't that person now, and they weren't that person when you met. I mean, using that logic, why do you not see them as a snivelling three-year-old wearing a diaper and snorting milk out through their nose? After all, they used to be that, too. It doesn't make sense.
Unless it is purely the physical lust that drives the relationship... in which case, it would be far too shallow and superficial to be anything close to perfect in the first place.
People are people, with the same capacity to love, care, trust, feel, hurt, hope, dream ect. The process of physically altering one's outward appearance to fall into line with one's inner self-image takes none of that away. In fact, it could be argued that through such persistent self-awareness, such emotional capacity is actually heightened.
My own view, transmen or transwomen... aren't any less men or women because we were unfortunate enough to be born with the incorrect anatomy. It just means we've had to work a little harder to be ourselves. Ourselves having being there all along. If you fall for a transwoman pre-transition, she's no less a woman. Post-transition... likewise. The heart, soul, spirit, desire, capacity for human interaction: all female... even if, pre-transition, the external appearance is ostensibly male. The essence of what makes a person isn't based solely on the sack of flesh they walk around in, no matter how attractive that may or may not be.
Just my thoughts. :)
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 06:07:02 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 05:38:28 PM
Yes.
Now it's your turn.
Sorry, I fudged the code and you quoted me before I fixed it. Re-read the post.
The scenario is not flawed, that
is the scenario. The scenario is you don't know until she tells you.
Regardless, it seems you have some thinking to do.
Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 05:41:46 PM
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 05:13:53 PM
Lets do this. Lets imagine you met a wonderful guy and you get married. After a perfect 10-year relationship you discover through a third party that he's an axe murderer. You've had 10 wonderful perfect years, he's done absolutely everything right and never once given you reason to doubt him in any way, shape or manner? Would you stay with him?
Kelly, think you should consider just how offensive that analogy sounds ?
Obviously, I'm not saying TSs are axe murderers. The elements in the two situations that are similar is that these are both people with a secret past but have changed and their is no evidence of anything objectionable; they are otherwise acceptable in every other manner. There's just that one little sticking point...and the chance however small that they might revert to previous behavior.
After reading the rest of your comments and how you do your relationships I can see why you got so angry with me. I could make alot of judgments about you but I'm just going to drop it here. Have a nice day, Laura.
Posted on: November 14, 2008, 06:20:10 pm
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 06:11:19 PM
The scenario is not flawed, that is the scenario. The scenario is you don't know until she tells you.
Regardless, it seems you have some thinking to do.
Gracie, the scenario
is flawed, it
does not and
never can exist as you have constructed it. It is unmitigated fantasy. She either is or isn't TS, you can't have it both ways. I'd suggest you think about that.
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 06:25:38 PM
Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 05:41:46 PM
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 05:13:53 PM
Lets do this. Lets imagine you met a wonderful guy and you get married. After a perfect 10-year relationship you discover through a third party that he's an axe murderer. You've had 10 wonderful perfect years, he's done absolutely everything right and never once given you reason to doubt him in any way, shape or manner? Would you stay with him?
Kelly, think you should consider just how offensive that analogy sounds ?
Obviously, I'm not saying TSs are axe murderers. The elements in the two situations that are similar is that these are both people with a secret past but have changed and their is no evidence of anything objectionable; they are otherwise acceptable in every other manner. There's just that one little sticking point...and the chance however small that they might revert to previous behavior.
After reading the rest of your comments and how you do your relationships I can see why you got so angry with me. I could make alot of judgments about you but I'm just going to drop it here. Have a nice day, Laura.
Posted on: November 14, 2008, 06:20:10 pm
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 06:11:19 PM
The scenario is not flawed, that is the scenario. The scenario is you don't know until she tells you.
Regardless, it seems you have some thinking to do.
Gracie, the scenario is flawed, it does not and never can exist as you have constructed it. It is unmitigated fantasy. She either is or isn't TS, you can't have it both ways. I'd suggest you think about that.
One is capable of being TS and attractive enough to fully pass as a cis-gendered female. And MtF SRS is good enough that you'd never known more-so. It is possible and it exists far more than you give it credit.
And even if it didn't, it wouldn't matter. That doesn't matter when it comes to hypotheticals.
Quote from: Leiandra on November 14, 2008, 06:10:52 PM
Call me naive, but I always thought you fall in love with the gift, not the wrapping. And if the relationship was perfect to start with, why would any revelation about who a person used to be change that? They aren't that person now, and they weren't that person when you met. I mean, using that logic, why do you not see them as a snivelling three-year-old wearing a diaper and snorting milk out through their nose? After all, they used to be that, too. It doesn't make sense.
Yes it may be shallow, but its human nature, I like my wrapping to be attractive too ...
Love and attraction (least for me, and probably way more so for guys ?) come as part of a package, and being physically attracted to a partner plays a huge part, doesn't it ?
And a lot of sexual attraction is about opposites, why most men are repulsed at the idea of intimacy with men, and same with women.
I can see "my guy" as a blubbing baby boy, scruffy schoolboy, but even those images for most people reinforce the sexual attraction of being different, having a different growing up experience from your partner ?
And I can see if a guy realises we went through similar childhoods, boy's schools (however painfull that was for me), male careers, that would detract from from my feminine "karma" and make me less of a woman in his eyes, maybe not a woman at all.
Guess its hard for a relationship to transcend that and it makes me realise that however much I disagree with her "revulsion" stance, Kellygurl is quite typical for a guy ...
Laura x
Posted on: November 14, 2008, 07:38:05 pm
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 06:25:38 PM
Obviously, I'm not saying TSs are axe murderers. The elements in the two situations that are similar is that these are both people with a secret past but have changed and their is no evidence of anything objectionable; they are otherwise acceptable in every other manner. There's just that one little sticking point...and the chance however small that they might revert to previous behavior.
Kelly, please explain "revert to previous behaviour" ... what previous behaviour ?
Does that mean I might grow a beard (impossible now), start wearing tweed jackets, drinking pints of beer, smoking a pipe ... ::) ... ?
If that's your hang up then I think its way less likely than a TS girl taking up axe-murder !!!
Laura x
Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 01:21:21 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 12:51:29 PM
Actually the majority of admirers are just normal guys that have a thing for transgirls.
Claire, think "normal guys that have a thing for transgirls" is a kinda contradiction ?
"Normal guys" do not have a thing for women with male equipment, which is what admirers are all about.
Most admirers show no interest in post-op, and the few who specifically look to date a post-op woman must be even more mixed up in their reasons.
Sure a normal guy might accept a pre- or post- transgirl once he finds out ... :o ... but to go specially looking for one ... that's far from normal in my reckoning !
Laura x
It wasn't me that made that statement but I'll reply anyway. ->-bleeped-<-s generally don't identify as gay or bi. I'm willing to take them at their word. It's not my place to judge other's sexual orientation. I think the attraction may be fetishistic but it's a harmless one. Perhaps as a post-op you can pull off the just a woman thing. For the rest of us the issue is going to come up as the relationship progresses. Myself, I prefer to be clear about my anatomy from the beginning.
Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 06:38:05 PM
Quote from: Leiandra on November 14, 2008, 06:10:52 PM
Call me naive, but I always thought you fall in love with the gift, not the wrapping. And if the relationship was perfect to start with, why would any revelation about who a person used to be change that? They aren't that person now, and they weren't that person when you met. I mean, using that logic, why do you not see them as a snivelling three-year-old wearing a diaper and snorting milk out through their nose? After all, they used to be that, too. It doesn't make sense.
Yes it may be shallow, but its human nature, I like my wrapping to be attractive too ...
Love and attraction (least for me, and probably way more so for guys ?) come as part of a package, and being physically attracted to a partner plays a huge part, doesn't it ?
Well that tears it, lol. I'm not human. ;D To be honest, in my case... no. It's a bonus, sure, but not the primary, secondary, or even tertiary influence for me. I know I'm very weird, but that's just how I feel.
Quote
And a lot of sexual attraction is about opposites, why most men are repulsed at the idea of intimacy with men, and same with women.
But I don't see transwomen as men, or transmen as women, whatever stage of transition they're in. So it wouldn't matter to me at all. I don't know how to explain it in any way that makes sense, because it probably doesn't, but I don't see people on the outside. I see who they
are, not who they seem to be.
Quote
I can see "my guy" as a blubbing baby boy, scruffy schoolboy, but even those images for most people reinforce the sexual attraction of being different, having a different growing up experience from your partner ?
And I can see if a guy realises we went through similar childhoods, boy's schools (however painfull that was for me), male careers, that would detract from from my feminine "karma" and make me less of a woman in his eyes, maybe not a woman at all.
Guess its hard for a relationship to transcend that and it makes me realise that however much I disagree with her "revulsion" stance, Kellygurl is quite typical for a guy ...
Laura x
Yeah, I guess you have a point, Laura. It never would have occurred to me, but I can see how that might be the case. Thank you for that insight. :)
However, for the record, when I look at your avatar and see the way you express yourself through your words, I see a beautiful woman... and that's it. To me, that's who you always were. Any... maleness, implied or otherwise, just doesn't register. At all. Same with all the ladies here. I take people for who they are, not who they were. That doesn't matter. Potential is more significant than past.
I don't know, I'm just weird, or idealistic or something, lol. :)
Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 12:48:29 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 12:02:18 PM
It seems like the overwhelming majority of admirers/->-bleeped-<-s of gentlemen of the older variety.
->-bleeped-<-s are creeps ... why would anyone want to date a guy who is turned on because you are "trans" ... whatever his age ... ??? ...
Guess its more the older guys who have had to repressed their bi- or homosexuality, or their own CD, TG tendencies, and see dating a transwoman as a "safe" non-challenging outlet for their fantasies ?
I only go for straight guys who see me just as a woman, and would avoid "admirers" like the plague if I ever encountered them (but I never go to those kind of places or to TG dating sites).
Most guys who "come on" to me are at least 10 - 20 years younger than me, and they can be fun until you realise that they just have one thing on their mind !
And I think (especially if you are young yourself) "coming out" to a young guy is maybe more likely to draw an accepting response ?
Laura x
I agree with you Laura. I have had '->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-s' after me, and they are only after the one thing other women don't have. Most are married and repressing homosexuality tendancies.
I think it is different if they don't know before and still able to accept afterwards, that is love.
But when a guy just wants the added bonus as they call it, that is a fetish and not love. Once it is gone, so are they.
Quote from: Claire de Lune on November 14, 2008, 06:52:31 PM
->-bleeped-<-s generally don't identify as gay or bi. I'm willing to take them at their word. It's not my place to judge other's sexual orientation. I think the attraction may be fetishistic but it's a harmless one. Perhaps as a post-op you can pull off the just a woman thing. For the rest of us the issue is going to come up as the relationship progresses. Myself, I prefer to be clear about my anatomy from the beginning.
But how can you form a relationship with a guy who is attracted to you "as a fetish" ... ??? ...
OK if he's a cultured guy, own's his own Central London bussiness, has a Covent Garden penthouse apartment (and yes I have his landline phone number !), has had previous TS "relationships" ... but for me the concept of "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-" just soo puts me off that I never even milked him for a few real expensive restaurant meals and some bottles of real decent wine !
Laura x
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 05:13:53 PM
Lets do this. Lets imagine you met a wonderful guy and you get married. After a perfect 10-year relationship you discover through a third party that he's an axe murderer. You've had 10 wonderful perfect years, he's done absolutely everything right and never once given you reason to doubt him in any way, shape or manner? Would you stay with him?
How can you compare a mtf with an axe murderer?? Typical ignorant comparison by a CD. Sorry, I find it very offensive.
Quote from: buttercup on November 14, 2008, 07:07:58 PM
How can you compare a mtf with an axe murderer?? Typical ignorant comparison by a CD. Sorry, I find it very offensive.
Granted it's not a perfect analogy but you can find the similarities if you're mind is open enough. More importantly it was part of a conversation I was having about hypotheticals to illustrate the point that being honest from the beginning in a relationship is important. But I can see that value is obviously not so important to you as it is to most, thus you are offended.
I could add some insults, as you have, but I'll leave it at that and consider a judicious use of the Ignore button instead.
Quote from: buttercup on November 14, 2008, 07:07:58 PM
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 05:13:53 PM
Lets do this. Lets imagine you met a wonderful guy and you get married. After a perfect 10-year relationship you discover through a third party that he's an axe murderer. You've had 10 wonderful perfect years, he's done absolutely everything right and never once given you reason to doubt him in any way, shape or manner? Would you stay with him?
How can you compare a mtf with an axe murderer?? Typical ignorant comparison by a CD. Sorry, I find it very offensive.
Lets not go calling people names, now. Doesn't matter the circumstance.
Posted on: November 14, 2008, 06:27:40 pm
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 07:27:12 PM
Quote from: buttercup on November 14, 2008, 07:07:58 PM
How can you compare a mtf with an axe murderer?? Typical ignorant comparison by a CD. Sorry, I find it very offensive.
Granted it's not a perfect analogy but you can find the similarities if you're mind is open enough. More importantly it was part of a conversation I was having about hypotheticals to illustrate the point that being honest from the beginning in a relationship is important. But I can see that value is obviously not so important to you as it is to most, thus you are offended.
I could add some insults, as you have, but I'll leave it at that and consider a judicious use of the Ignore button instead.
No one should share personal, sensitive medical history on first dates or when first meeting. If trans women walked around with big "I used to have a penis" stickers on them they would get far less attention just as an attractive woman would get less attention if she would wear a "I was born with a dead siamese twin attached to my belly"
It's not lying, it is just not shared. And it is okay if it is not shared right away, because it is unneeded information in that time frame.
On the subject of straight guys freaking out when the find they have been attracted to a woman who "used to be a guy" (which is the way they see it) is pure homophobia. Most straight men would rather cut off their pxxxx and their bxxxx than think they were the least little bit homosexual.
The root of the problem is that most of "enlightened society" simply doesn't understand the difference between sex and gender and finds it incomprehensible that they could be opposite each other. After all, EVERYONE KNOWS that if you have bits that stick out, you are a boy and will become a man and if you don't you're a woman. To begin to acknowledge that there may be some separation between sex and gender undermines the very cornerstone of modern society!
P.S. On the original subject I can't comment - I have always been stealth.
Quote from: buttercup on November 14, 2008, 07:07:58 PM
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 05:13:53 PM
Lets do this. Lets imagine you met a wonderful guy and you get married. After a perfect 10-year relationship you discover through a third party that he's an axe murderer. You've had 10 wonderful perfect years, he's done absolutely everything right and never once given you reason to doubt him in any way, shape or manner? Would you stay with him?
How can you compare a mtf with an axe murderer?? Typical ignorant comparison by a CD. Sorry, I find it very offensive.
She set up a straw man, which is an acceptable form of argumentation in my mind. And what's up with the CD bashing?
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 07:37:29 PM
No one should share personal, sensitive medical history on first dates or when first meeting. If trans women walked around with big "I used to have a penis" stickers on them they would get far less attention just as an attractive woman would get less attention if she would wear a "I was born with a dead siamese twin attached to my belly"
It's not lying, it is just not shared. And it is okay if it is not shared right away, because it is unneeded information in that time frame.
Maybe not the first date but soon thereafter. At what point do you tell them you have an STD? I'd call that sensitive medical history. The issue is you are removing the right of choice by hiding that information. What if the person has a religious objection he simply can't ignore or change? You would veto that in favor of letting him believe you are something he could never live with all because you are convinced there no possible reason he needs to know? This is playing fast and loose with some very important ethical questions.
Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 07:05:10 PM
Quote from: Claire de Lune on November 14, 2008, 06:52:31 PM
->-bleeped-<-s generally don't identify as gay or bi. I'm willing to take them at their word. It's not my place to judge other's sexual orientation. I think the attraction may be fetishistic but it's a harmless one. Perhaps as a post-op you can pull off the just a woman thing. For the rest of us the issue is going to come up as the relationship progresses. Myself, I prefer to be clear about my anatomy from the beginning.
But how can you form a relationship with a guy who is attracted to you "as a fetish" ... ??? ...
OK if he's a cultured guy, own's his own Central London bussiness, has a Covent Garden penthouse apartment (and yes I have his landline phone number !), has had previous TS "relationships" ... but for me the concept of "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-" just soo puts me off that I never even milked him for a few real expensive restaurant meals and some bottles of real decent wine !
Laura x
well Laura Eva B while it is possable to form a relationship with a guy who is attracted to you "as a fetish" but also too maybe the people are NOT LOOKING TO fom a said
RELATIONSHIP !! and maybe they just want some company . or maybe they want some one to be just freinds with some one
Posted on: November 14, 2008, 09:03:48 pm
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 08:02:53 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 07:37:29 PM
No one should share personal, sensitive medical history on first dates or when first meeting. If trans women walked around with big "I used to have a penis" stickers on them they would get far less attention just as an attractive woman would get less attention if she would wear a "I was born with a dead siamese twin attached to my belly"
It's not lying, it is just not shared. And it is okay if it is not shared right away, because it is unneeded information in that time frame.
Maybe not the first date but soon thereafter. At what point do you tell them you have an STD? I'd call that sensitive medical history. The issue is you are removing the right of choice by hiding that information. What if the person has a religious objection he simply can't ignore or change? You would veto that in favor of letting him believe you are something he could never live with all because you are convinced there no possible reason he needs to know? This is playing fast and loose with some very important ethical questions.
indeed it is much more better to SHARE THIS INFROMATION as it hold much importants in regards to STDS AND AIDS and other desieases too
Quote from: Northern Jane on November 14, 2008, 07:47:09 PM
On the subject of straight guys freaking out when the find they have been attracted to a woman who "used to be a guy" (which is the way they see it) is pure homophobia. Most straight men would rather cut off their pxxxx and their bxxxx than think they were the least little bit homosexual.
The root of the problem is that most of "enlightened society" simply doesn't understand the difference between sex and gender and finds it incomprehensible that they could be opposite each other. After all, EVERYONE KNOWS that if you have bits that stick out, you are a boy and will become a man and if you don't you're a woman. To begin to acknowledge that there may be some separation between sex and gender undermines the very cornerstone of modern society!
P.S. On the original subject I can't comment - I have always been stealth.
What if it collides with their religious faith? Would you disregard that with the excuse that they are homophobic, ignorant about their own sexuality and don't deserve the basic human respect of honesty all so you can know what it's like to be a complete woman? Seems a little selfish to me.
Quote from: Northern Jane on November 14, 2008, 07:47:09 PM
The root of the problem is that most of "enlightened society" simply doesn't understand the difference between sex and gender and finds it incomprehensible that they could be opposite each other. After all, EVERYONE KNOWS that if you have bits that stick out, you are a boy and will become a man and if you don't you're a woman. To begin to acknowledge that there may be some separation between sex and gender undermines the very cornerstone of modern society!
Jane, you're looking for a sea change in society for people to regard brain gender as overriding physical sex ?
I'm guilty too as guess I would find it difficult dating a transguy ... no repulsion, but little sexual attraction once I knew his history.
And I understand why my current guy who keeps saying how feminine I am in my looks, my voice, my gestures, and who is still quite willing to introduce me to his friends and be seen "dating" me (so he must believe I'm 100% passable) has perceptively physically "cooled" since I came out to him.
Laura x
Quote from: debbie j on November 14, 2008, 08:06:03 PM
indeed it is much more better to SHARE THIS INFROMATION as it hold much importants in regards to STDS AND AIDS and other desieases too
So it turns out there are many valid reasons to expect honesty, some of them you may not be aware of and by withholding the information you could be hurting someone for your own gain.
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 08:02:53 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 07:37:29 PM
No one should share personal, sensitive medical history on first dates or when first meeting. If trans women walked around with big "I used to have a penis" stickers on them they would get far less attention just as an attractive woman would get less attention if she would wear a "I was born with a dead siamese twin attached to my belly"
It's not lying, it is just not shared. And it is okay if it is not shared right away, because it is unneeded information in that time frame.
Maybe not the first date but soon thereafter. At what point do you tell them you have an STD? I'd call that sensitive medical history. The issue is you are removing the right of choice by hiding that information. What if the person has a religious objection he simply can't ignore or change? You would veto that in favor of letting him believe you are something he could never live with all because you are convinced there no possible reason he needs to know? This is playing fast and loose with some very important ethical questions.
The logical and responsible time to reveal you have or have had an STD is before you have sex, of course. I feel the same applies to pre-op trans women.
As for post-op? It is best that they do the same sometime in the relationship before it gets really really heavy and long term, but it is not a 100% necessity.
Quote from: Claire de Lune on November 14, 2008, 07:54:33 PM
She set up a straw man, which is an acceptable form of argumentation in my mind. And what's up with the CD bashing?
Thank you, Claire. What
is up with the CD bashing?
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 08:06:10 PM
Quote from: Northern Jane on November 14, 2008, 07:47:09 PM
On the subject of straight guys freaking out when the find they have been attracted to a woman who "used to be a guy" (which is the way they see it) is pure homophobia. Most straight men would rather cut off their pxxxx and their bxxxx than think they were the least little bit homosexual.
The root of the problem is that most of "enlightened society" simply doesn't understand the difference between sex and gender and finds it incomprehensible that they could be opposite each other. After all, EVERYONE KNOWS that if you have bits that stick out, you are a boy and will become a man and if you don't you're a woman. To begin to acknowledge that there may be some separation between sex and gender undermines the very cornerstone of modern society!
P.S. On the original subject I can't comment - I have always been stealth.
What if it collides with their religious faith? Would you disregard that with the excuse that they are homophobic, ignorant about their own sexuality and don't deserve the basic human respect of honesty all so you can know what it's like to be a complete woman? Seems a little selfish to me.
There isn't anything in anyone's holy text saying that it is wrong to have transsexualism. Cross dressing, yes. Transsexualism, no. (And no, that was not a swing at you.)
Plus, I'm sure most people with transsexualism can safely say they wouldn't be with anyone that religious to begin with.
All of these worries you're expressing are coming from a very paranoid mindset that we are all men trying to trick other men. We're not. We're just women trying to live with a birth defect. We shouldn't have to wear pink triangles on our jackets.
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 08:10:08 PM
As for post-op? It is best that they do the same sometime in the relationship before it gets really really heavy and long term, but it is not a 100% necessity.
Or there is a fear of rejection and it's much easier to reason away the issue of complete honesty about one's past as a matter of convenience. I'd reference another post around here on the subject of leaving your past behind and how easy it is for it to catch up with you ala' Six Degrees of Separation. It's more likely than you think.
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 08:18:11 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 08:10:08 PM
As for post-op? It is best that they do the same sometime in the relationship before it gets really really heavy and long term, but it is not a 100% necessity.
Or there is a fear of rejection and it's much easier to reason away the issue of complete honesty about one's past as a matter of convenience. I'd reference another post around here on the subject of leaving your past behind and how easy it is for it to catch up with you ala' Six Degrees of Separation. It's more likely than you think.
Not in fear of rejection, just because it is not something someone has to share. Personally I think I will tell them somewhere down the road. But because I am starting at the age I am, the "six degrees" thing won't work that well on me, as the only people that used to know me as a male are my high school peers which I never see anymore. I don't even have work history under my old name.
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 08:15:26 PM
There isn't anything in anyone's holy text saying that it is wrong to have transsexualism. Cross dressing, yes. Transsexualism, no. (And no, that was not a swing at you.)
Plus, I'm sure most people with transsexualism can safely say they wouldn't be with anyone that religious to begin with.
All of these worries you're expressing are coming from a very paranoid mindset that we are all men trying to trick other men. We're not. We're just women trying to live with a birth defect. We shouldn't have to wear pink triangles on our jackets.
CD in the Bible, LOL. That issue is covered on these very boards. At this point I have to say that your life experience and over-all knowledge are far less than mine. I don't want to pull rank on you but I am over twice your age. You sound educated and write intelligently but your information is bad, your debate tactics are wanting and you come off sounding like a bad used car salesman.
My concern, not worries (because there is absolutely no risk any of you would ever "trick" me), is that I not be labeled as one of those creepy old men trying to pick up on you pretty TS gals because I'm only a CDer and thereby have some pentup fetish to act out. I have stated this several times now but it all seems to get lost with you insecure gals worrying about never having that "normal" relationship and then blame everyone else for having sex hangups.
Geez
Posted on: November 14, 2008, 08:28:41 pm
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 08:21:34 PM
Not in fear of rejection, just because it is not something someone has to share. Personally I think I will tell them somewhere down the road. But because I am starting at the age I am, the "six degrees" thing won't work that well on me, as the only people that used to know me as a male are my high school peers which I never see anymore. I don't even have work history under my old name.
Okay well good luck on that. Hope nobody gets hurt, especially you. It would probably make me angry, even violently so. Think about that, hun.
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 08:31:01 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 08:15:26 PM
There isn't anything in anyone's holy text saying that it is wrong to have transsexualism. Cross dressing, yes. Transsexualism, no. (And no, that was not a swing at you.)
Plus, I'm sure most people with transsexualism can safely say they wouldn't be with anyone that religious to begin with.
All of these worries you're expressing are coming from a very paranoid mindset that we are all men trying to trick other men. We're not. We're just women trying to live with a birth defect. We shouldn't have to wear pink triangles on our jackets.
CD in the Bible, LOL. That issue is covered on these very boards. At this point I have to say that your life experience and over-all knowledge are far less than mine. I don't want to pull rank on you but I am over twice your age. You sound educated and write intelligently but your information is bad, your debate tactics are wanting and you come off sounding like a bad used car salesman.
My concern, not worries (because there is absolutely no risk any of you would ever "trick" me), is that I not be labeled as one of those creepy old men trying to pick up on you pretty TS gals because I'm only a CDer and thereby have some pentup fetish to act out. I have stated this several times now but it all seems to get lost with you insecure gals worrying about never having that "normal" relationship and then blame everyone else for having sex hangups.
Geez
Posted on: November 14, 2008, 08:28:41 pm
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 08:21:34 PM
Not in fear of rejection, just because it is not something someone has to share. Personally I think I will tell them somewhere down the road. But because I am starting at the age I am, the "six degrees" thing won't work that well on me, as the only people that used to know me as a male are my high school peers which I never see anymore. I don't even have work history under my old name.
Okay well good luck on that. Hope nobody gets hurt, especially you. It would probably make me angry, even violently so. Think about that, hun.
You accuse me of CD bashing, when you make the analogy that a ts women not sharing her past is like an axe-murderer, and you reveal that YOU have VIOLENT tendancies, typical! Ignore me if you wish, ditto.!
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 08:28:41 PM
CD in the Bible, LOL. That issue is covered on these very boards. At this point I have to say that your life experience and over-all knowledge are far less than mine. I don't want to pull rank on you but I am over twice your age. You sound educated and write intelligently but your information is bad, your debate tactics are wanting and you come off sounding like a bad used car salesman.
My concern, not worries (because there is absolutely no risk any of you would ever "trick" me), is that I not be labeled as one of those creepy old men trying to pick up on you pretty TS gals because I'm only a CDer and thereby have some pentup fetish to act out. I have stated this several times now but it all seems to get lost with you insecure gals worrying about never having that "normal" relationship and then blame everyone else for having sex hangups.
Geez
QuoteCD in the Bible, LOL.
It's in leviticus. I Lol'd as well.
Quoteyour information is bad, your debate tactics are wanting and you come off sounding like a bad used car salesman.
Nothing is more frustrating than a backhanded compliment...
I am not misinformed, I just disagree with you. I could say you are the one who is misinformed. Just because you are older than me doesn't mean you are more worldly or wise. It just means you were born first.
Quote(because there is absolutely no risk any of you would ever "trick" me)
A nice swift punch to my gut. Lovely.
QuoteMy concern, not worries (because there is absolutely no risk any of you would ever "trick" me), is that I not be labeled as one of those creepy old men trying to pick up on you pretty TS gals because I'm only a CDer and thereby have some pentup fetish to act out. I have stated this several times now but it all seems to get lost with you insecure gals worrying about never having that "normal" relationship and then blame everyone else for having sex hangups.
:"/ I have never posted at all, not even hinted at, saying that you were a creepy ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<- because you are older and a cross dresser, and in no way what so ever do I think that cross dressers are closeted people with transsexualism.
Okay, that's enough.
As far as this forum is concerned, the only 'rank' is between staff and members, and that only extends to forum operation and maintenance. So no one has any right to pull anything. Your experience and knowledge is yours, as is everyone else's theirs. Bravado through who knows the most and who's the 'wisest' is ultimately futile since you know nothing about other people except for what they post here.
Please don't start making this personal.
Kelleygurl, no one labeled
you as anything, and nor do I suspect is anyone particularly inclined to do so. No one knows you.
Being confrontational solves nothing.
Please keep this in mind, from the site rules:
Quote15. You may challenge the issue, but never people or groups.
And keep the topic on track rather than degrading it into a flame war. I don't want to have to lock it.
Thank you.
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 08:31:01 PM
Okay well good luck on that. Hope nobody gets hurt, especially you. It would probably make me angry, even violently so. Think about that, hun.
I'm a pretty sharp judge of character. I don't think I'll have any trouble. Thanks for your concern anyways.
Posted on: November 14, 2008, 07:42:43 pm
Quote from: Leiandra on November 14, 2008, 08:41:18 PM
Okay, that's enough.
As far as this forum is concerned, the only 'rank' is between staff and members, and that only extends to forum operation and maintenance. So no one has any right to pull anything. Your experience and knowledge is yours, as is everyone else's theirs. Bravado through who knows the most and who's the 'wisest' is ultimately futile since you know nothing about other people except for what they post here.
Please don't start making this personal.
Kelleygurl, no one labeled you as anything, and nor do I suspect is anyone particularly inclined to do so. No one knows you.
Being confrontational solves nothing.
Please keep this in mind, from the site rules:
Quote15. You may challenge the issue, but never people or groups.
And keep the topic on track rather than degrading it into a flame war. I don't want to have to lock it.
Thank you.
Note taken. I apologize.
Quote from: Leiandra on November 14, 2008, 08:41:18 PM
Okay, that's enough.
As far as this forum is concerned, the only 'rank' is between staff and members, and that only extends to forum operation and maintenance. So no one has any right to pull anything. Your experience and knowledge is yours, as is everyone else's theirs. Bravado through who knows the most and who's the 'wisest' is ultimately futile since you know nothing about other people except for what they post here.
Please don't start making this personal.
Kelleygurl, no one labeled you as anything, and nor do I suspect is anyone particularly inclined to do so. No one knows you.
Being confrontational solves nothing.
Please keep this in mind, from the site rules:
Quote15. You may challenge the issue, but never people or groups.
And keep the topic on track rather than degrading it into a flame war. I don't want to have to lock it.
Thank you.
Thanks, glad we got that out of the way.
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 06:25:38 PM
There's just that one little sticking point...and the chance however small that they might revert to previous behavior.
Might you explain this a little further? I so badly wanna understand. I know you don't represent everyone, but it might offer some clues at least?
~Kate~
I was making a generalized comparison of two situations with some similarities. I'm obviously failing to persuade anyone of my point of view and I've been admonished for breaking the rules. To try to push the point any further by elaborating would only invite more of what I feel is pidgeon-holing me unfairly. And I'm sure that would be allowed to be go on all the way up to the point where I responded in kind, and then I'd be reprimanded again, or worse.
No thank you.
Honey, you can make as many general observations as you want. The point is to debate the issue, and not to bring specific people into it. And you're perfectly entitled to your point of view, as long as you appreciate that everyone else is entitled to theirs.
What I said wasn't directed at anyone inparticular, apart from the part about you having not being labelled as anything. It was a general note of caution to try and keep the thread on track and on the subject at hand rather than having it deviate off into "I don't agree with you because you're X or Y or Z" Targetting specific people just leads to arguments that have nothing to do with the subject, but only focus on trying to identify each other's flaws and exploit them.
Anything you have to add that would explain the way you feel would be more than welcome. Just keep it general, that's all. :) *hugs*
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 09:25:59 PM
I was making a generalized comparison of two situations with some similarities. I'm obviously failing to persuade anyone of my point of view and I've been admonished for breaking the rules. To try to push the point any further by elaborating would only invite more of what I feel is pidgeon-holing me unfairly. And I'm sure that would be allowed to be go on all the way up to the point where I responded in kind, and then I'd be reprimanded again, or worse.
No thank you.
Many people on this board just don't seem to grasp analogies sometimes. It's not your fault.
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 09:49:15 PM
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 09:25:59 PM
I was making a generalized comparison of two situations with some similarities. I'm obviously failing to persuade anyone of my point of view and I've been admonished for breaking the rules. To try to push the point any further by elaborating would only invite more of what I feel is pidgeon-holing me unfairly. And I'm sure that would be allowed to be go on all the way up to the point where I responded in kind, and then I'd be reprimanded again, or worse.
No thank you.
Many people on this board just don't seem to grasp analogies sometimes. It's not your fault.
But I did understand the analogy, being extreme is something I don't care for. I'm not starting a flame war here, but how can someone say a stealth ts girl is comparable to an axe murderer? There has to be some similiarities for that comparison to be used, and please explain where there is one? It doesn't make sense, and its very insulting.
I'm sorry, but I feel some people on here are homophobic and transphobic, which is kinda strange because its a transgender site. These discussions never end well unfortunately. I just ask that people be more kind, but its too hard for some.
Quote from: buttercup on November 14, 2008, 10:06:03 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 09:49:15 PM
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 09:25:59 PM
I was making a generalized comparison of two situations with some similarities. I'm obviously failing to persuade anyone of my point of view and I've been admonished for breaking the rules. To try to push the point any further by elaborating would only invite more of what I feel is pidgeon-holing me unfairly. And I'm sure that would be allowed to be go on all the way up to the point where I responded in kind, and then I'd be reprimanded again, or worse.
No thank you.
Many people on this board just don't seem to grasp analogies sometimes. It's not your fault.
But I did understand the analogy, being extreme is something I don't care for. I'm not starting a flame war here, but how can someone say a stealth ts girl is comparable to an axe murderer? There has to be some similiarities for that comparison to be used, and please explain where there is one? It doesn't make sense, and its very insulting.
I'm sorry, but I feel some people on here are homophobic and transphobic, which is kinda strange because its a transgender site. These discussions never end well unfortunately. I just ask that people be more kind, but its too hard for some.
Literally, one can not compare them. But the focus of the analogy was "lying to a significant other", not that the significant other in the analogy is an axe murderer. The axe murderer husband was just background set up for the actual analogy.
QuoteMany people on this board just don't seem to grasp analogies sometimes. It's not your fault.
Don't worry. I'm guilty as charged. ;)
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 08:31:01 PM
Okay well good luck on that. Hope nobody gets hurt, especially you. It would probably make me angry, even violently so. Think about that, hun.
I was going to reply to some of your points but this invalidates everything you've said. It's totally wrong for you to threaten her with physical harm. Your
criminal tendency's have no bearing on the rightness or wrongness of her choice. In my opinion as long as you feel you have the right to threaten violence toward other people here you do not belong here at all.
Quote from: Nikki on November 15, 2008, 12:31:19 AM
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 08:31:01 PM
Okay well good luck on that. Hope nobody gets hurt, especially you. It would probably make me angry, even violently so. Think about that, hun.
I was going to reply to some of your points but this invalidates everything you've said. It's totally wrong for you to threaten her with physical harm. Your criminal tendency's have no bearing on the rightness or wrongness of her choice. In my opinion as long as you feel you have the right to threaten violence toward other people here you do not belong here at all.
He wasn't threatening me. Reread that post. He was defending me.
Quote from: Nikki on November 15, 2008, 12:31:19 AM
...do not belong here at all.
I've come to the same conclusion.
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 15, 2008, 12:46:09 AM
Quote from: Nikki on November 15, 2008, 12:31:19 AM
Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 08:31:01 PM
Okay well good luck on that. Hope nobody gets hurt, especially you. It would probably make me angry, even violently so. Think about that, hun.
I was going to reply to some of your points but this invalidates everything you've said. It's totally wrong for you to threaten her with physical harm. Your criminal tendency's have no bearing on the rightness or wrongness of her choice. In my opinion as long as you feel you have the right to threaten violence toward other people here you do not belong here at all.
He wasn't threatening me. Reread that post. He was defending me.
Having reread it a dozen or more times I can sort of see how you're reading it.
Quote from: Kelleygurl as you read it i think on November 14, 2008, 08:31:01 PM
Okay well good luck on that. Hope nobody gets hurt, especially you. <If you were hurt,> It would probably make me angry, even violently so. Think about that, hun.
I will concede that viewing transsexual history as comparable to voluntary axe murders and contagious STD's leaves me a little biased, but I think the big problem with reading it as a defense not a threat is the "probably". If what would anger him is you being hurt by someone else why is that a probably? I would certainly be angered, just the implied threat as I read the post angered me. I can't really mesh a probably in that spot with a defensive read of the statement.
Quote from: Kelleygurl as i read it on November 14, 2008, 08:31:01 PM
Okay well good luck on that. Hope nobody gets hurt, especially you. <If you told me late in a relationship,> It would probably make me angry, even violently so. Think about that, hun.
I could be wrong but baring new evidence, at this point, I don't really see enough doubt to retract.
Just noticed when I was about to read one last time before hitting Post. While I was reading things over he posted and did not dispute my read, which I would expect if I was so extremely wrong about what he was saying.
Well if you want let your rage guide you, then sure, translate it that way. I prefer giving people the benefit of the doubt.
Those involved in this thread need to grow up. We have had 3 deletion requests over this thread and that's three too many. It's not that serious people. That being said I don't like any denigration against members of our community be they TS, CD, FTM, MTF, IS, Androgynes, SO's, or even non-TG for any reason!