I wish someone could explain this to me. So many people these days getting obsessed with everything Japanese. Especially manga and anime. I know what it's like to take an interest in another culture, but the levels of Japan-mania these days seem more extreme. For example (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,50121.msg311715.html#msg311715) "I would like a Japanese name once I transition" "Japanese names are so cool" "I love everything about Japan, I will most definitely be moving there permanently when my life is in order" "Are you upto being a shinigami?"
???
I don't mean to pick on the individuals in that conversation, I've been noticing this sort of thing all over for the past few years, and reading the above just made me decide to ask.
One or two Yanks getting obsessed to this level, I would take no notice, but if Susan's forums are any indication, it's become a mass phenomenon. Half the population here under 25 is using kawaii manga avatars. I guess it's a generational thing.
To the generation before me, Japan was a deadly enemy, notorious for inhumane treatment of prisoners of war. As I was growing up, I kept hearing of veterans from WWII in the Pacific who for many years afterward got very angry if anyone bought a Japanese car, because of their wartime experiences.
To the generation after me, Japan is just the most desirable country in the whole wide world.
But for my generation, it was neither a supervillain nor an earthly paradise. We just didn't have any especial thoughts about it one way or the other, it was just another country, big deal. I did take a Japanese language class years ago, but that was just because I like learning different languages. こんにちは、私は ヒュパティアちゃん である。But for me it was just another language, not a major wannabe obsession. Where did all the wannabes come from?
Post war Japan is perhaps the best or worst example of 'nation building' on record. They are, in many ways, more American than America, so what they do appeals to us a lot, because what we are looking at is through a mirror and darkly.
That's an interesting way to look at it.
Maybe the lingering ill feeling after the war needed a neutral generation (mine) in between before the Japanophilia could majorly blossom.
Videogames play a large part, I would guess. And the globalisation of media. Plus, Japan is, in a lot of ways, at the cutting edge of technology. You know young people and technology... it's like a m->-bleeped-<-ie to a piece of tin-foil. "SHINY!! ME WANT!"
I guess it's just the current 'cool' thing. :)
God, I feel old. :-\
I guess it's just the other side of the coin since things USA are really popular in Japan as well.
The complicated ouroboros between american pop culture and japanese pop culture is often confused for the merely japanese.
Its been around for like... Ever though. Where have you been?
I kind of lost interest of vidio games after pack man The Merio Brothers. Gee Iremember teaching my kids how to paly that. There was a newer version a few years later when I had a friends three kids in my care. Little Samantha took to it more then the two boys.
Well me I must be a big kid, I love Anims.
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Cindy
I've think I've kind of noticed three things going on.
1. The American entertainment industry has been creatively stagnant (The Japanese Media is started to stagnate now though). And I think a lot of younger people's "needs" so to speak were not being met by mainstream sources. American Cartoons have really degenerated over time. So, younger people ended up consuming media that was more creative. The American Media did not initially do a good job of copying over what was good about it (I don't know if they ever suceeded) So now we have a generation that thinks that the Japanese make the best stuff and so they must have a great culture (this happens a lot with exported US media and culture).
2. Another thing is that the style used in anime has changing. The style that we typically see today was not a nearly as common in the past, and was not as easy to differentiate. It is actually rather suprising to see just how much many of the good cartoons from the 80's and such were actually Japanese exports. I remember a few years ago seeing a clip on youtube of a bunch of ads for shows on NickJR from the early 90s, and when I looked up those shows I was suprised that something like half of them were Japanese Exports (I think about a fourth of the cartoons were from places other than Japan or the US). But my point is, today it's easier to tell that these shows are Japanese due to the evolving style, thus people are more likely to associate this stuff with Japan.
3. Then there is a sort of "the grass is greener on the other side" type of thing going on. Due to all of the cultural exports (anime and video games) a lot a people think that Japan must be wonderful. Of course, Japan isn't actually any better than the US is, just different. Anyone who wants to live in Japan needs to take a closer and very serious look. Japan may have good things about it, but it's not a utopia, especially for foreigners.
Wel, that's my imput. I hope it's not to rambling or disorganized. I also hope it made sense.
I think there is a great deal of "the grass is greener on the other side" type of thing among
Well, they make neat robots. :D
Cindy
so... i dont really know how to help anyone "get it" with anything... i think that for the most part, especially with art, that the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
as a kid i loved speed racer and g-force as well as american cartoons. but then robotech came out and i lost it. that was the start for me. the quality, style and story line was miles above anything else i had seen. it was on at 5am where i am and i would wake up, watch it, go back to sleep for a while then get up and go to school.
there were other things growing up that led to my full on japan-a-mania. i like the language like some people did french. i think that they had some of the coolest old world art masters... even their old art was way cool and stylized. the influence of zen-buddhism on their architecture, art and gardens created some of the most beautiful works i have seen...
i dont know... it all just clicks in my head.
watashi no kokoro wa nihonjin desu */^____^\*
Quotewatashi no kokoro wa nihonjin desu
Did you say my heart is Japanese?? Forgive me if I translated wrong because my Japanese sucks...
Quote from: Kara-Xen on November 30, 2008, 11:04:44 PMIts been around for like... Ever though. Where have you been?
For a youth like yourself, "forever" takes place in a timescale of much shorter duration than for a granny like me. My kids are your age.
We had Japanese media becoming popular in America since at least 1963 when "を向いて歩こう" (
Ue o muite arukō) by Kyū Sakamoto became a number one hit. But the American record company figured that Yanks could never be bothered to pronounce the title, and they couldn't understand a word of it anyway, so they renamed the song "Sukiyaki" on the theory that at least it was one Japanese word Yanks could recognize. The song actually had nothing at all to do with any culinary dishes.
Growing up in the '60s, we all had
Godzilla and his friends on the screen and
Speed Racer, Astro Boy, and
Ultraman on the TV. Karate was the most popular martial art in those days. Highbrows went for Kurosawa movies.
But with all that, none of the kids back when I was a kid ever became obsessed with identifying themselves with anime characters, or gave themselves Japanese names, or pined for the shores of Kawasaki. That's why I'm saying this is something new. I've noticed it grown huge only in recent years.
I have to admit that I have never been to Japan, but I have had several Japanese work colleagues and have always been fascinated by the culture.
What is interesting is that the ones that brought their families to the West, found it very difficult to leave. The wives in particular said that they saw more of their husbands in the 2 years of secondment, than they had in most of their lives.
They all seemed to think that there was an obsession with virtual reality within the youth culture, to escape the claustrophobic stress of their society (certainly in the cities).
One thing that is clear is that the freedom of the individual is not what it might seem out there. The corporations have a very strong hold on employees, although it is intended for this to appear invisible to western visitors.
..So no, while I still want to visit someday soon, I would not like to live in Japan I'm way too old for that sort of pressure.... but all that focussed imagination does generate some astonishing imagery and technology.
Chrissty
PS ...One word of hope... A good friend who was a Director in a Tokyo Corporation (now retired) took me aside one day, and told me that he believed that while the Japanese culture would beat the West for developing a technology, the Western Cultures still had the ability for greater creativity and original "out of the box" thought......
Quote from: je on December 01, 2008, 02:21:41 AM
Quotewatashi no kokoro wa nihonjin desu
Did you say my heart is Japanese?? Forgive me if I translated wrong because my Japanese sucks...
Pretty close. That actually means 'My heart is a Japanese person'. There is no word that means "Japanese" as a plain predicate adjective; the adjective is always expressed as "Japan-(something)." I think to express your meaning, use a phrase something like 私の中心は日本にある
watakushi no kokoro wa Nihon ni aru, literally 'my heart is in Japan', or 私の中心は日本のです
watakushi no kokoro wa Nihon no desu, 'My heart is of Japan/belongs to Japan'. (Note: I'm saying "
watakushi" because I'm a girl.)
Quote from: Hypatia on November 30, 2008, 10:27:26 PM
One or two Yanks getting obsessed to this level, I would take no notice, but if Susan's forums are any indication, it's become a mass phenomenon. Half the population here under 25 is using kawaii manga avatars. I guess it's a generational thing.
Generational? I'm more than twice 25, and my avatar is standing around in a
neko skin. I think there are a number of concepts that are attractive about Japanese culture, but that would take hours to write about. Why is our country obsessed with Japan? I think the pervasiveness of
aname and
manga has something to do with it. You can't turn on a TV or computer and not see it. Sure, things like Pokemon and Mew Mew Powers are inane, but much of the programming goes into deep concepts of what it means to be a person and part of the world.
I grew up on Japanese cartoons: Robotech, Samurai Pizza-Cats, Sabre-Rider ... etc.
Mine is an animation generation, and as we've grown up, we've looked for more adult animation. The only place to find that really, is in Japan, and to some extent South Korea.
Anime storylines tend to be much more complex and willing to deal with more adult or difficult themes, whereas American and British stuff, and most of the translated stuff I've seen from mainland Europe (Asterix, for example) really are just for kids.
My love-affair with the East doesn't end there though. My mom started me off in a very traditional form of Okinawan Karate when I was five, and I've very much grown up in that tradition.
Another appeal, I think, is the whole "cyberpunk" feel places like Japan, Hong-Kong, Korea and the like have. They are literally decades ahead of the rest of us in many ways, and that appeals to young people who grew up on sci-fi and are always looking for the next cool thing.
~Simone.
Quote from: ell on December 01, 2008, 07:53:58 AM
Then sometime around 2004 i think it was, Tech TV aired the entire anime called Serial Experiments Lain. Lain has many of the same shortcomings as lots of other Japanese stories (namely, obsession with violence and suicide) but it also runs very deep in several different directions. most importantly, for me at least, is the way it deals with the idea of lies told perpetrated against society. Aside from Lain, i do not watch any other anime.
As I have said before, I want to watch Lain with you, and I want you to watch Ghost in The Shell with me.
Hmm... I don't really know.
I like Japanese art, manga, and anime, because it's pretty to look at and they have interesting storylines... And that kinda blossomed into a liking of everything Japanese.
It's sorta like the french for me, all those great french house songs... Now I kinda love the french! ^^
The anime and manga thing just sorta speaks to me and gives me an outlet for self expression, I guess.
America has very little culture of its own. We are just consumers not artists or poets. Rather then be focused on a passion we work for the man to buy toys. Marketing has sold you out.
Quote from: lisagurl on December 01, 2008, 08:35:52 AM
America has very little culture of its own. We are just consumers not artists or poets. Rather then be focused on a passion we work for the man to buy toys. Marketing has sold you out.
America has a rich culture, other people in the world are much more aware of it than we are. The corporations sell us dreck, and we stand in line for more.
Z
Quote from: ell on December 01, 2008, 07:53:58 AM
Quote from: Hypatia on November 30, 2008, 10:27:26 PM
/topic,50121.msg311715.html#msg311715]For example[/url]
I don't mean to pick on the individuals in that conversation
But for me it was just another language, not a major wannabe obsession. Where did all the wannabes come from?
it's not entirely generational, and your use of the derogatory, "wannabes" is perhaps part of the understanding problem.
my interest in this area actually started with Heavy Metal magazine, back in the late 70's. i thought it was deliciously saucy, weird, and, just fun. Lots of sci-fi elements. and it was also the first time i had ever seen Trans people depicted in a very positive light.
i ignored Japanese graphic novels (and still do) and also tuned out most anime shows on TV as just plain uninteresting.
Then sometime around 2004 i think it was, Tech TV aired the entire anime called Serial Experiments Lain. Lain has many of the same shortcomings as lots of other Japanese stories (namely, obsession with violence and suicide) but it also runs very deep in several different directions. most importantly, for me at least, is the way it deals with the idea of lies told perpetrated against society. Aside from Lain, i do not watch any other anime.
as for other things, Japanese horror films are quite fun, the movie Rashomon (also the book) and of course, Hagakure: the book of the Samurai.
-ell
Thats unfortunate. You're missing out on many more intellectual adventures, you just gotta find the right one. Paranoia Agent and Paprika for one. FLCL, for all of its mania and nonsense, had one of the most beautifully executed endings ever. It actually made me cry.
Fullmetals a bit of a fad, but it certainly has a wonderful style and plot. :P
Quote from: Zythyra on December 01, 2008, 08:40:33 AM
Quote from: lisagurl on December 01, 2008, 08:35:52 AM
America has very little culture of its own. We are just consumers not artists or poets. Rather then be focused on a passion we work for the man to buy toys. Marketing has sold you out.
America has a rich culture, other people in the world are much more aware of it than we are. The corporations sell us dreck, and we stand in line for more.
Z
That's probobly true, we just can't see it, because for us, it isn't culture, it's everyday life. :)
heh that was me in that conversation :P
If your main hobby is video games, it's hard to not admire Japan. Then it spills over into anime, manga, and the likes.
I've always been a very techy person, and Japan with it's advanced technology and everything just seems amazing. Here, if I'm good at video games, I love manga and collect figurines I'm known as childish and a geek. It's just part of the culture over in Japan. Grown men and women dress up as their favourite characters and go to cosplay events and nobody bats an eyelash. I do the same here and people think I'm an idiot.
Their family values, the way children are raised, it's all so different from England or America
I think if you're the type of person who's never fit in with the world around you, a culture where everything is pretty much the opposite of what you're used to is bound to be appealing.
Japanese pop culture to me is appealing in its attention to aesthetics, its embracing of future-oriented thought and the bursting, unapologetic youth of its spirit. There's also an immense variety of it: from the artistic to the crude, from the memorable and intellectually challenging to the merely entertaining.
QuoteTheir family values, the way children are raised, it's all so different from England or America
Japanese children have the highest suicide rate in the world.
QuoteAndy Warhol contributed some very interesting thought in regards to the ways that culture is perceived and consumed.
Now if you consider corporate culture as a positive export, I think it stretching the word.
Quote from: lisagurl on December 01, 2008, 11:53:53 AM
QuoteTheir family values, the way children are raised, it's all so different from England or America
Japanese children have the highest suicide rate in the world.
I know that, because of the immense pressure to succeed in life
however when you look at the other end of the scale, a lot of kids in england are just running riot. Never making anything of themselves except a nuisance
I sound so much older than I actually am there =p damn kids, get off my lawn
I'm pretty cool with any new fads except for the violent type stuff and smutty stuff I abhor. I was pretty well up to date with the new fads, including animes and Japanese movies up until 6 years ago when the last time I had kids under my roof, but I still love animes and all that robotic stuff from Japan.
I like anyone who is nice to me, no matter what nationality or beliefs. I worked with Germans, Swedes, Hungarians, Czechs, Japanese, Vietnamese, Chinese, African Americans, Mexicans, and North American Natives, Seminoles and Cherokee, I have lived at one time or another on pretty well every state on the east coast across the US border, and every east coast provinces in Canada, and I only ran into a hand full of a-holes on my journey.
I learned many different languages, not with books but from just being around people of different nationalities. There is always the universal language to communicate with someone who doesn't speak English, it is called body language for one, and after a while from just plain being around them I get the feel of what they are trying to communicate.
I love traveling and I love exploring new places, and if it were still possible financially I would be the first one in the car ready to go. I love anyone who is nice to me in return, including Japanese.
Cindy
QuoteI know that, because of the immense pressure to succeed in life
Rather than succeed how about being human and contributing to the betterment of human kind. That does not mean having a lot of material things or making a lot of money or consuming a lot to add more jobs.
Quote from: lisagurl on December 01, 2008, 01:55:14 PM
QuoteI know that, because of the immense pressure to succeed in life
Rather than succeed how about being human and contributing to the betterment of human kind. That does not mean having a lot of material things or making a lot of money or consuming a lot to add more jobs.
I agree there are many different ways to succeed. A lot of it is focused around getting a good job, and if you don't live up to the expectations of your family (or society as a whole) you're seen as a failure. It's a shame really.
When I took an art of the world class in college, one of the assignments was a cross-cultural examiniation thing. I chose Manga, mostly on a whim.
Manga dates back to the 12th century, but in a very different format that what exists today. Modern manga does indeed show Western/American influences. That said, it still (to me, at least) seems to be a distinct form of illustraion art that is indeed different from more Western forms. I like some manga simply because I find it aesthically pleasing. I like the sharp lines and vivid colors and immense eyes. My fondness for manga is based purely on what I like to look at, not any assumed guilt for something that was done long before I was born.
In the research for my manga paper, I learned that manga is now taught compulsory in schools. To some Japanese artists, this is not good as it can cause artistic stagnation if it's compulsory.
I also like surreal art, primarily Magritte and Dali. I guess that sometimes manga can have a surreal quality to it, too.
I liked Godzilla a lot as a kid, and my son is hooked on the beasty now. The only Kurosawa film I ever saw was his interpretation of King Lear: Ran. My English teacher that year was a big Shakespeare and Japanese arts fan; so we watched this movie in class while studying King Lear. I have no memories of Astro Boy, but I do indeed remember watching Speed Racer and Ultraman on syndicated TV in the late '70's. As kids, my brothers and me used the word "Japanimation" to describe the "Japanese adventure cartoons" we used to watch.
My son is a real big manga and anime fan, though I've never asked him why. Many of his friends have these same interests, and it's better than setting fires and defacing public property, so I never explored his fascination with him.
Soto Zen Buddhism, the form that I practice, had its birth in Japan, as did Dogen. I'd like to visit Japan, specifically the birthplace of Dogen, for this reason. It would be a pilgrimage of sorts.
Likewise, I find Mount Fuji to be just beautiful. I've seen many photos of it and I'd like to visit it in person. Of course, I can say the same of Mount Shasta, Lassen, Rainier, and many others, so it's not just Fuji.
To me, Ansell Adams and Frank Lloyd Wright are prime examples of successful American artists. So, I don't think I'd agree with the sentiment that America lacks culture. It's just harder to find under the Americana (though many will say that Americana is American cultural art).
I like some Japanese food, though Chinese and Italian appeal to me more.
I've seen photos from other peoples' visits to Japan. I'd like to see those places with my own eyes. Am I obssessed with Japan as a destination then? No more than any other place I'd like to visit (you can add Big Sur, the Great Lakes, and Ashfall Fossil Beds to the list, along with the mountains listed above).
I can only speak for me. I don't feel like I'm obsessed with Japanese art and culture. I would like to visit the country, however.
Well, I'd had no exposure to manga. I came of age slightly before video games took over America's youth, in the late '70s, so I missed out on all that. I did read Heavy Metal magazine in those days, though. But all I remember from it was French comix, like Moebius, plus some American material. Did it have Japanese manga too? I'm drawing a blank now.
No one I ever knew personally was into manga, nor did I ever see it anywhere until a few years ago. (Now the public library and Barnes & Noble stock it). I didn't get what all the fanatical devotion was about.
But when I found out there was an entire lesbian genre of manga, that was all I needed to suddenly take interest. It's the lesbian angle that caught me rather than the manga phenomenon itself. So far I've begun to explore it with a little Yuri Monogatari and Erica Sakurazawa; I would welcome recommendations for good yuri, as long as it's for grown-up women.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on December 01, 2008, 03:47:57 PMI have no memories of Astro Boy
You didn't miss much. It was made for little children, and it happened to be on American TV in the mid-'60s, when I was in first grade or so. It didn't continue for long, though.
Edit: I just remembered another one from the '60s,
Marine Boy.
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When I was in middle school, the boy who raped me claimed to be playing Ultraman with me, and he was the monster. Yes, as a matter of fact he was.
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Quote from: Hypatia on December 01, 2008, 04:24:30 PM
But when I found out there was an entire lesbian genre of manga, that was all I needed to suddenly take interest. It's the lesbian angle that caught me rather than the manga phenomenon itself. So far I've begun to explore it with a little Yuri Monogatari and Erica Sakurazawa; I would welcome recommendations for good yuri, as long as it's for grown-up women.
A lot of the pornographic or otherwise sexually explicity manga I've come across does leave something to be desired (no pun intended). It seems that much of it revolves around pedophilia, rape by montsers (non-human), rape in general, and cross-generational sex. Maybe others like it, but it gives me the heebee jeebees.
Ive always enjoyed anime and computer games for a long time.
Also while never taking any classes myself ive long had an appreciation for the beauty of martital arts of the orient.
I would truly love to go to Japan at least once to see the culture and scenary as well as to visit some of the shrines of Inari and the birth place of Zen. I do like to listen to the Japanesse language and I am considering taking it in college as a foreign language requiremnt if its offered. That aside I would not wish to live in Japan either now or in the past. In the past Japan had a exteremly male dominated culture and a strong basis around tradition and formality neither of which im fond of. As for present day Japan the price of living there is among the highest in the world and the entire Island is heavly overpopulated. As for anyone wishing to live in Japan later last I heard the country was so overpopulated that they where not alowing any foriengers to come live there except under special circumstances.
When it comes to alot of anime I think it is a case thats similar to medieval chivalry. As in somethign that depicts a stylish idealized setting that actually didn't exist that particular way. Oh and age wise im 25
I studied karate a bit as a kid. I think my parents wanted me to learn to defend myself against bullies. I never used it though: I was way too passive.
My son studied karate for a while, though I can't quite remember how he got started.
Shinto intrigues me as I see parallels between the Paganism I practice and Shinto. So in addition to visiting the birthplace of Dogen and Soto Zen, I'd like to seem some Shinto shrine in person. Pictures in books or online are all very well, but there's something about being there that matters to me.
Agewise, I'm 39: 19.5 years older than my son.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on December 01, 2008, 04:40:15 PM
Quote from: Hypatia on December 01, 2008, 04:24:30 PM
But when I found out there was an entire lesbian genre of manga, that was all I needed to suddenly take interest. It's the lesbian angle that caught me rather than the manga phenomenon itself. So far I've begun to explore it with a little Yuri Monogatari and Erica Sakurazawa; I would welcome recommendations for good yuri, as long as it's for grown-up women.
A lot of the pornographic or otherwise sexually explicity manga I've come across does leave something to be desired (no pun intended). It seems that much of it revolves around pedophilia, rape by montsers (non-human), rape in general, and cross-generational sex. Maybe others like it, but it gives me the heebee jeebees.
Not that-- I was talking about
yuri-- focused on relationships between women. For me, good lesbian media are mainly about women's loves and relationships; sex is always welcome, but not essential. Sex without love does not interest me. Rapes are
right out. ::)
I don't even like to say the word that begins with an *R* People that do that should have their privates cut off.
Cindy
Quote from: Hypatia link=topic=50486.msg312144#msg312144 Not that-- I was talking abouti]yuri[/i]-- focused on relationships between women. For me, good lesbian media are mainly about women's loves and relationships; sex is always welcome, but not essential. Sex without love does not interest me. Rapes are right out. ::)
Oh, I understood to what you were referring. I've found quite a bit of yuri, and yaoi for that matter, that is still violent. That's why I mentioned it.
Quote from: Hypatia on December 01, 2008, 04:03:17 AM
Quote from: je on December 01, 2008, 02:21:41 AM
Quotewatashi no kokoro wa nihonjin desu
Did you say my heart is Japanese?? Forgive me if I translated wrong because my Japanese sucks...
Pretty close. That actually means 'My heart is a Japanese person'. There is no word that means "Japanese" as a plain predicate adjective; the adjective is always expressed as "Japan-(something)." I think to express your meaning, use a phrase something like 私の中心は日本にある watakushi no kokoro wa Nihon ni aru, literally 'my heart is in Japan', or 私の中心は日本のです watakushi no kokoro wa Nihon no desu, 'My heart is of Japan/belongs to Japan'. (Note: I'm saying "watakushi" because I'm a girl.)
while i havent studied japanese in school, i have spent some time in books and also with nihonjin. i was taught how to say my heart is japanese by a few different japanese girls. i was trying to learn how to say my soul is japanese.... but they always went with heart.
from what i was told, watashi is used by girls and boku is used by boys. at least in everyday speech.
;) beth
To the best of my understanding,
boku is considered basic easygoing guy talk. While
ore is the really rough form used by tough guys. Yakuza.
Watashi is the general polite form (therefore more likely to be used by girls), while
watakushi is extra polite and therefore I suppose more feminine. While the really girly form is
atashi or
atakushi (but I'm too grown up to say that).
P.S. Anyone dealing with gender issues who wants to learn Japanese-- there are more differences between men's and women's speech in Japanese than in most languages: Gender differences in spoken Japanese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_spoken_Japanese)
Edit-- reading that, I see I was mistaken.
Quote私, わたくし watakushi polite when used by both men and women; more formal than watashi. Generally preferred by men over "watashi".
This stuff is pretty complex.
ok... so in 2004 i was with my last girlfriend. she is the one that i did everything in my power to supress gid. she never knew.
she was a japanese social worker in tsuruoka. a small city west of yamagata. i was very into japanese stuff.. and she was really upset by it... otaku is a bad word... like super nerd geek. anyway, i had learned, "watashi no kokoro wa nihonjin desu" from a casual japanese friend who i talked with only a few times. when i told my girl friend what japanese i knew she laughed and scolded me and taught me "boku no kokoro wa nihonjin desu". "only girls say watashi".... maybe it was a northern japan dialect.. ??? she would constantly correct my improper use of gendered words that i had learned from books.
Wow. OK-- thanks for correcting me.
Quote from: bethzerosix on December 01, 2008, 11:30:54 PM
ok... so in 2004 i was with my last girlfriend. she is the one that i did everything in my power to supress gid. she never knew.
she was a japanese social worker in tsuruoka. a small city west of yamagata. i was very into japanese stuff.. and she was really upset by it... otaku is a bad word... like super nerd geek. anyway, i had learned, "watashi no kokoro wa nihonjin desu" from a casual japanese friend who i talked with only a few times. when i told my girl friend what japanese i knew she laughed and scolded me and taught me "boku no kokoro wa nihonjin desu". "only girls say watashi".... maybe it was a northern japan dialect.. ??? she would constantly correct my improper use of gendered words that i had learned from books.
Well "watashi" is ok for both sexes when you want to be polite but friendly. "Boku" is more rude and therefore more male. Oh well, at least she didn't have you say "Ore" which is really dripping with macho juice ;P
Isn't "watakushi" a bit
too formal for most situations? It sounds a bit stilted for normal speak.
"Hee, hee." Watashi, sounds like Washi meaning, *Big Belly* in First Nations here in Vancouver. Actually Washi is the name of a native woman I know, my best friend. :D
Cindy
Quote from: Hypatia on November 30, 2008, 10:27:26 PM"Are you upto being a shinigami?"
It was actually me who said that.
I enjoy watching anime, but am in no way one of these crazed Japanese wannabe people.
I just said that cause the other poster mentioned wanting a name from the anime "Death Note"
*Goes and hides back in the corner*
Quote from: Gizzy on December 02, 2008, 04:29:10 PM
Quote from: Hypatia on November 30, 2008, 10:27:26 PM"Are you upto being a shinigami?"
It was actually me who said that.
I enjoy watching anime, but am in no way one of these crazed Japanese wannabe people.
I just said that cause the other poster mentioned wanting a name from the anime "Death Note"
*Goes and hides back in the corner*
I was the other half of the conversation. but I on the other hand totally admit to being a "weaboo" - I'm openly obsessed with Japan
Thanks for replying, Dawni. I hope you understand this thread was not meant to belittle you or other you or criticize you in any way. It's something I'd been wondering about for years-- actually, ever since I first visited TG communities online and found them rife with manga/anime fandom. It's just that your posts showed the purest examples of the phenomenon I'd ever seen and prompted me to ask what's it all about. I felt slightly weird about asking because I remind myself a little too uncomfortably of the rubes who ask "What's this TG all about, anyway, I don't get it" which makes me feel objectified if it's done aggressively. I don't want to do that to anyone else.
But I'm wondering does this Japanophilia have any particular connection with TG, or is it widespread in general? I know lots of young people, but none of them who I know IRL are into this, just TG people I see online. I want to understand better, because if there is a particular nexus of Japanophilia or anime fandom with TG, it might be relevant to me.
Japanophilia isn't a new phenomenon-- the most advanced example of it I've ever heard of was a Greek-Irish journalist named Lafcadio Hearn, who first went to Japan in 1890, settled in, learned the language, became a naturalized Japanese citizen, changed his name to 小泉八雲 Koizumi Yakumo, and spent the rest of his life writing books about Japanese culture.
Quote from: Hypatia on December 02, 2008, 09:17:34 PMBut I'm wondering does this Japanophilia have any particular connection with TG, or is it widespread in general? I know lots of young people, but none of them who I know IRL are into this, just TG people I see online.
I don't know about over in the States, but in South Africa there is a small but diverse community of anime fans and "japanophiles". Thing is, they tend to be the same type of people that gravitate towards comics and roleplaying and computer games and the like. I don't think that it's a "TG" thing, but from my experience TG people are generally more attracted to fantasy, sci-fi, cyberpunk and the like - probably partly as escapism, but also because you get to live out different lives through tabletop RPG's, video-games, LARP and cosplay etc. Add to that that people attracted to these sorts of activities are generally quite intelligent, usually way more accepting of different, and usually have a philosophical bent to them, and there is alot to attract TG people to the fanboy/gamer-geek/anime otaku communities, in the same way that many TG people are also attracted to the androgynous tragic self-absorption that is goth. ;)
~Simone,
Tragically self-absorbed cybergoth geek. ;D
Quote from: Hypatia on December 02, 2008, 09:17:34 PMJapanophilia isn't a new phenomenon-- the most advanced example of it I've ever heard of was a Greek-Irish journalist named Lafcadio Hearn, who first went to Japan in 1890, settled in, learned the language, became a naturalized Japanese citizen, changed his name to 小泉八雲 Koizumi Yakumo, and spent the rest of his life writing books about Japanese culture.
Lol, you make it sound like an illness. :P
Quote from: lady amarant on December 03, 2008, 03:41:06 AM
but from my experience TG people are generally more attracted to fantasy, sci-fi, cyberpunk and the like
I tend more toward
steampunk myself. Can I get a job as
computer (someone who does calculations using a
computational engine) on the Nautilus?
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 03, 2008, 06:31:34 AMI tend more toward steampunk myself. Can I get a job as computer (someone who does calculations using a computational engine) on the Nautilus?
Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!
Have you read Grant Morrison's Sebastian O? Alan Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is brilliant! ;D
Sorry, the fangirl in me can't help herself. As usual. :P
~Simone,
Quote from: lady amarant on December 03, 2008, 08:51:02 AM
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 03, 2008, 06:31:34 AMI tend more toward steampunk myself. Can I get a job as computer (someone who does calculations using a computational engine) on the Nautilus?
Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!
Have you read Grant Morrison's Sebastian O? Alan Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is brilliant! ;D
Sorry, the fangirl in me can't help herself. As usual. :P
~Simone,
No, I've not. They
aught to be on my reading list, and my son has strongly recommended that I watch the movie version of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
In SecondLife I am a Steampunk Girl: "Today's computational engines are far advanced beyond Mr. Babbage's difference engine and analytical engine. The mill has been reduced in size to fit on a chip of silicon. Rather than being several tonnes in weight, they are now a mere fraction of a stone."
I have had to explain the ears though. Experiments by my father that I have had to learn to live with. Had something to do with DNA, but the rest is beyond me. There are certain advantages, like being able to see in the dark, and thankfully a bussel skirt hides the tail.
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 03, 2008, 09:13:11 AMmy son has strongly recommended that I watch the movie version of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
Noooooooooooooo! ;)
Or at least, only after you've read a few issues of the comic. The movie is good, but the comic is brilliant.
~Simone.
Quote from: lady amarant on December 03, 2008, 09:23:29 AM
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 03, 2008, 09:13:11 AMmy son has strongly recommended that I watch the movie version of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
Noooooooooooooo! ;)
Or at least, only after you've read a few issues of the comic. The movie is good, but the comic is brilliant.
~Simone.
Indeed! The movie is... horrible. The graphic novel is awesome though :)
Well this TS likes fantasy, sci-fi, adventure, romance, animes, old fashioned and new animated Walt Disney cartoon characters, Pretty well any kids movies, Walt Disney and other wize, comedy, westerns, etc. I love telling my own stories to kids, art, drawing my own cartoons, wright my own stories. I am also mischievous, loving caring compassionate person. Anybody want to adopt a 62 year old going on 10 years old kid? ;D
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2Fangelinfantasyland.jpg&hash=ea2c3884cf1438eadde2503ec01a6bb9675f03db)
Cindy
Quote from: soldierjane on December 03, 2008, 09:39:16 AM
Quote from: lady amarant on December 03, 2008, 09:23:29 AM
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 03, 2008, 09:13:11 AMmy son has strongly recommended that I watch the movie version of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
Noooooooooooooo! ;)
Or at least, only after you've read a few issues of the comic. The movie is good, but the comic is brilliant.
~Simone.
Indeed! The movie is... horrible. The graphic novel is awesome though :)
I liked the movie. :(
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on December 03, 2008, 11:26:04 AM
Quote from: soldierjane on December 03, 2008, 09:39:16 AM
Quote from: lady amarant on December 03, 2008, 09:23:29 AM
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 03, 2008, 09:13:11 AMmy son has strongly recommended that I watch the movie version of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
Noooooooooooooo! ;)
Or at least, only after you've read a few issues of the comic. The movie is good, but the comic is brilliant.
~Simone.
Indeed! The movie is... horrible. The graphic novel is awesome though :)
I liked the movie. :(
There's certainly no argument against personal taste, but the movie is a soulless husk compared to the comic. Everything that's neat about the movie (like.. the League) is there plus a ton more. Do check it out :)
I've never seen the TV series or the comic, but would have to agree. The movie sucks!
Also, back to the Japan/TG business. I reckon whoever mentioned escapism was probably right.
Most anime is completely unrealistic. Girls look like boys and boys look like girls. In anime you can be who you like and pretty much do what you want.
This isn't something that I actually look for when choosing anime to watch, but I think there's definately something about it that I love.
Quote from: soldierjane on December 03, 2008, 12:27:31 PMThere's certainly no argument against personal taste, but the movie is a soulless husk compared to the comic. Everything that's neat about the movie (like.. the League) is there plus a ton more. Do check it out :)
Another neat thing about the movie: Stuart Townsend. >:-)
~Simone.
Quote from: Gizzy on December 03, 2008, 12:34:59 PMAlso, back to the Japan/TG business. I reckon whoever mentioned escapism was probably right.
Most anime is completely unrealistic. Girls look like boys and boys look like girls. In anime you can be who you like and pretty much do what you want.
This isn't something that I actually look for when choosing anime to watch, but I think there's definately something about it that I love.
So... anime helps TG kids deal with the pain of being displaced in life? By showing a world where you aren't locked into such rigid categories (like gender)?
(or nationality...)
I dunno to be honest. It's just my view on it.
Some people might disagree completely. But I know people who feel like that about anime. Especially those that participate in cosplay exibits and stuff.
I reflected some more on why am I taking an interest in this question myself. Questioning of today's Japanophilia might be coming from a place of American nationalism, a sense of dismay that Americans are forsaking their own culture for a foreign one. I am not coming from that place, since I myself have spent much of my life living my fascination for another Asian culture. So I could never pass for a jingoistic American patriot.
In age I'm like a kid sister of the hippies, my formative years were the 1960s, and I grew up like so many others of that time with my mind bent by the sounds of George Harrison's sitar. Like so many other hippies, I felt inspired to listen to the source, Indian music like Ravi Shankar. From there I developed a lifelong absorption in Indian culture-- I mainly cook Indian cuisine, my home always scented with the aroma of spices and nag champa incense, I've worn Indian clothes for many years, I taught myself Hindi and Tamil and translated poetry from those languages, I even took a class in Sanskrit, I became a fan of both Hindustani and Carnatic music, I'm mad about Bharata Natyam and attend performance of it at a local Hindu temple, I taught myself to play tabla and other Indian instruments, and I've practiced various types of Hindu and Buddhist meditation and yoga over the years, most of all Tantric yoga which has permeated my breath and my body's energy through years of practice. I've watched more Bollywood in my life than any of you have seen anime, I bet.
I assimilated into the Indian diaspora community here and became accepted among them as someone who understands the culture. I even went and got married in India (though I later came to regret that). I often considered moving to India to live. I really loved my stay over there and hated to return to America afterwards.
So I can definitely relate to people's fascination with an Asian culture; I've largely patterned my life after one. (Though in recent years my radical Indianization has somewhat worn off me as I've become more re-integrated with the West.) I can easily imagine other Americans looking at me funny and asking what makes me such an India freak wannabe.
One of the earliest gender-crossing experiences I can remember is when I was 4 years old, an Indian woman visited my preschool classroom and demonstrated to the girls how to wrap a sari. I looked on, feeling myself to be one of the girls, and when I came out as trans the very first thing I did was apply that lesson by wearing a sari. I got the sari-wrapping technique right on the first try. Seeing me, Hindus might say memsahib was Indian in a former lifetime...
I have a very strange relationship to culture.
What most people I know would consider to be Italian cuisine is, to me, just home cooking. My mother if FBI: Full Blooded Italian. While both of her parents were born in the US, all four of her grandparents were born in Italy. I'm American, but Italian food seems to me to be part of American culture.
I also love Chinese and Japanese food, though I don't consider those to be part of American culture. My guess is because my mother didn't regularly cook these things.
I do enjoy the sounds of some Asian instruments, and I love the look of sari. But, I wouldn't necessarily consider myself to be an Asianophile or Japanophile. I just like the things that appeal to my senses regardless of their origins.
Quote from: lady amarant on December 03, 2008, 09:23:29 AM
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 03, 2008, 09:13:11 AMLeague of Extraordinary Gentlemen
Or at least, only after you've read a few issues of the comic. The movie is good, but the comic is brilliant.
~Simone.
I have now read both volumes, and I agree. They are brilliant. I only wish there was more.
now i'm probally gonna screw this up by saying this (takes deep breath) (now don't laugh ok) (i say this a lot but never in public or i try not to at least watashi wa boku wa homo desu) but strangly enough every documention says that roughly it's hello i'm a ->-bleeped-<-got or close, but really i read a lot of manga right now i'm reading higurashi vol 1 oh goddess it's horibly cute & bloody at the same time & lets see negima! it's just basacly what if harry potter was a shota who was teaching in japan & he's got a harum but's it's funny as hell vol 9's got the best bits with chachimaru running amok, and even some tg & crosdressing during the carnavel arc, and even some moment towards the end of that arc about who negi hooks up with, but i gave up on it considereing delray's slowness bringing it out to the states, and anime i'm watching right now black cat, burst angel, BLEACH & code geass, but i've always liked the language and the colture.
Quote from: Zythyra on December 01, 2008, 08:40:33 AM
Quote from: lisagurl on December 01, 2008, 08:35:52 AM
America has very little culture of its own. We are just consumers not artists or poets. Rather then be focused on a passion we work for the man to buy toys. Marketing has sold you out.
America has a rich culture, other people in the world are much more aware of it than we are. The corporations sell us dreck, and we stand in line for more.
Z
i've noticed that.
More people here know about zappa or beefheart or residents or pollock or dr john or television or iggy and the stooges or howling wolf or kurt vonnegut or phillip roth and all sorts of (what i would think was a taut) american culture than most americans i've met.
you lot have some great stuff, but statistically, we have consumed more of it then you. Marquee Moon for example was a top ten album here, not even a top 100 one there.
I think that is easy to say if your watching American culture through a TV, but the real stuff happens off that screen. Yes, there is a huge swatch of junk - not something that Japan has ever held back on either, but I think a lot of people in a lot of places in this nation, and not just the obvious ones, know a lot more than you give them credit for.
I have noticed a distinct japanmania link with trans people... bit like with computers too... What can it all mean? A grab for things to identify as? with? I dont mind anime, but i cant understand the obsession... As for american culture, theres plenty... look under a nearby trash can and see...
*runs*
Quote from: Starbuck on January 19, 2009, 07:07:32 PM
I have noticed a distinct japanmania link with trans people... bit like with computers too... What can it all mean?
I'm guessing
Ranma ½ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranma_%C2%BD) must be the culprit. For that matter, ask our "a.k.a. Hazumu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kashimashi:_Girl_Meets_Girl_characters#Hazumu_Osaragi)" sometime how she chose her name.
this isnt some of that girls growing penises out of thier vagina style japanese anime stuff? thats far too common for coincidence with this link... >< The japanese seem as obsessed with that as transwomen can be with Japan
you can blame that on 4chans b-tards and their goramned obsesion about futa girls, oh and the question about ranma well it could be considered one of the first to talk about it but you've got to go back a little further to (i think) rose of versalies it's one of the first if not the first to have a tg themed story, and it's spirtual follow up shoujo kakumei utena pretty much the same theme but with 100% more gay and mind->-bleeped-<-ery, try watching the series & the movie. i mean both series had crossdressing themes but while rose had a bad end lead character gets killed off in the last episode utena had a sort of kind of happy ending, just wiki both series for more info.
Post Merge: January 20, 2009, 04:27:17 AM
oh and here's the links to the wikipedia articles for the rose of versailles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rose_of_Versailles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rose_of_Versailles) & for shoujo kakumei utena http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoujo_Kakumei_Utena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoujo_Kakumei_Utena)
Sorry hon, i didnt follow half of that....
and im not sure what showing me transgender anime show links will do... im still as amused by the trans > japan, japan > trans link. There seems a disturbing amout of transgender anime and hentai? porn... only the japanese ><
Quote from: Starbuck on January 19, 2009, 07:18:24 PM
this isnt some of that girls growing penises out of thier vagina style japanese anime stuff? thats far too common for coincidence with this link... >< The japanese seem as obsessed with that as transwomen can be with Japan
Geek culture loves stuff from Japan and there happen to be a lot of geek transwomen. Japan itself, while having less of a hangup about gender play for youths, regards it with disgust if the subject is older or if they intend to actually switch genders for good. Japan is only just now waking up to understanding
actual transsexualism.
Futanari, what you refer to, is as much of a porn dream as "->-bleeped-<-s" are here. I wouldn't pay much heed to that.
I had never heard of futanari until it was brought up here just now. And urghghgh... I'm sorry I looked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futanari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futanari)
I feel like dropping the subject of Japan now.
I use to like animes, I knew there was some perversion on animes but this is the first time I actually see it. There ain't no other word that comes to mind except for perversion of something that I though was supposed to be cute. "Chauvinist pigs spoil everything that is supposed to be nice!!!!!" >:(
Cindy
The chauvinism doesn't bother me as much as the pedophilia, little cartoon school girls getting raped by tentacled monsters etc. It is funny because they are into such bizarre nasty sh*t, (literally) but they censor their porn with mosaic. What is up with that? In Japan you can buy a can out of a public vending machine that has an artificial disposable vagina built into it. But I think mainly Japan has a much higher standard of living than we do in the United States so having Japan stuff is a status symbol. That and the naughty cartoon stuff. Did I mention they have a much higher standard of living than we do in the US?
pedophilian male chauvinist pigs....hmm I think I just invented a new word, but I can't think of anything more....monstrous to call them.
Cindy
Did I mention they have a much higher standard of living than we do in the US?
Depends on how and who defines it. As for all this stuff, the rape/little school girl cartoons, its just a gangster rap deal in Japan, its not the culture, but merely a looking glass refection of the underside of it. Little to nothing that has been discussed in this thread is anything but the most stereotyped commerical stuff that Japan offers, there is nothing of the beauty of traditional Japanese culture.
Quote from: Hypatia on January 22, 2009, 12:49:05 AM
I had never heard of futanari until it was brought up here just now. And urghghgh... I'm sorry I looked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futanari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futanari)
I feel like dropping the subject of Japan now.
You know, I always thought bukkake was worse.. or gokkun. omg! instant mind corruption! I'M SORRY :P
Cheeeeeeez I do certainly pray that little kids ain't watching this crap, that would be bringing debauchery to the nth degree.
People should be hung by the small of their crotch showing this crap.
Cindy