I often wonder how many young MtF TS girls, who are thinking of transitioning, or are actually in the process, think about what their sexual role will be in the end. It gets confusing to many. Some MTF's will only want to be with other women. Some with both women and men.
Then again, others will want to be with the opposite of their gender after they go through SRS. This applies to FTM's as well.
I was always labeled as gay from a young age. I didn't understand it at the time. I thought I liked to be with girls/females. I played with them, had them as friends, and dated them as a teen. Yet, I had an innate built in Gay-Dar, and was very aware of males who liked me, and wanted to be my boyfriend. It got particularly rough, when I was 15 to 17...gay men hounded me.
I didn't actually realize I was Bi-sexual until I was around 25 or so. It was during this time, I actually wanted a man and all that he could offer. I loved female relationships, and now was open to men as well. I was confused about what to do. Especially after what had I gone through years prior. Lots of counseling helped.
I won't go into particular's about the first time I openly accepted a males advance's. Let's just say; very different, very exciting and a little scary at the same time. Don't ask if I did or didn't, OK. It doesn't matter. He was my first, and was my lover/teacher for a while.
This was a monumental moment for me. And more than a little mind boggling. I had to think a long time about what my true preferences were, which was very difficult. I hopped back and forth across the fence for a long time. I liked it both ways. I never got involved in a three-some. Chances were there, but, I declined.
I finally decided, that in order for me to live in my new gender role, it would be easier if I was in a traditional relationship with the opposite sex. A man. Even though I am married to man I dearly and deeply love, and I would never cheat on him, I still eye the ladies...and they look back! It is difficult to push those feelings down. My husband is aware of this in me. He isn't threatened,for he knows he has my true heart.
And that is the point; how many of the younger TS gals and boys, have given this subject any thought. What is your true heart sexually? It is important to think it through, and come to realizations that you can live with. It can also have a huge impact on your transition as well as your life later. It did for me...
I'm married to a natal woman, and I hope to keep that together. Up until now, I've been attracted the most strongly to natal women, then in decending order after that transwomen, transmen, and natal men.
I guess I think of myself as bisexual, but I definetly fall much more on the "attracted to women" end of the spectrum. However, I am open to the idea that I may ultimately become more attracted to men. I don't see that happening now, because I want to stay with my wife and I find most men a bit frightening.
If I was ever single though, it's not that hard for me to see myself with a guy.. but it's easier to see myself with a woman (natal or trans).
Although sexuality and gender identity are different subjects, they do intertwine with each other at some point. This is especially so in the beginning before transition, or even before you figure out you're trans. As we grow up, most TSs at some point probably go through the thought that they're gay/lesbian before figuring out it goes deeper than that. I don't think there are many TSs that
haven't given their sexuality some thought.
QuoteIt is important to think it through, and come to realizations that you can live with.
I don't know if that's entirely true. Especially since there are many cases where someone's sexuality has changed after being on hormones for a while, so whatever choice they conceded to didn't really matter anyways. I think sexuality can be a fluid concept and isn't as hard set as someone's gender identity (or lack thereof). In my case, I have pretty much settled on bisexual, but I can't say that I'm still entirely sure as I've never actually been on a real date with either gender yet (oh, that just sounds sad). But at this point, my sexuality isn't a subject that keeps me up at night.
I think, just like everything else, someone's sexuality can either be a big part of them and require a lot of thought to settle on something they can feel comfortable with, while with others it may just be a fluid unknown until they happen upon someone who they mesh with. And in the case of someone where it is a bigger part of them, I think that for them it would be hard
not to have taken the necessary time to think it through.
"Accept" is not the word I would choose to use. I prefer to make my own role.
QuoteIt is important to think it through, and come to realizations that you can live with.
Personally, I'd rather not over-analyse my sexuality and simply go with whatever feels right and do whatever I am comfortable with.
The way I prepare for my 'sexual role' is to use plenty of lube, do a bunch of warm up stretches and put on some vinyl. ;)
Sex is just sex isn't it? What is there to think about. Your preference might change with transition, so you do another kind of person. You are not sure what you like best, so you try some out untill you figure it out. It does not sound like a big deal to me.
If you're in a relationship and your preference changes so that you no longer find your partner sexually attractive then that might be pretty difficult to deal with. But you can't really predict this happening. If you still find your partner sexually attractive it is all a bit irrelevant, perhaps something to note if you ever found yourself single again. Just another bunch to look and don't touch.
I wonder how many young transpeople freak out over the sexuality because their society makes such a big deal about it?
I'm probably being a little rude here. I can see that it could be more significant if you hang your identity on your sexuality. I guess I don't. Perhaps being Androgyne trumps any sexually derived identity by denying us access to them - afterall there are no homosexual or heterosexual Androgynes. Instead we have penis loving and vagina loving Androgynes (over simplification I know, but you probably get my point)
I would guess that most TS's who are not bi-sexual to start with think about
this at some point in their transition. And the realization for some that
they not only could be attracted to men but that I always have been is
quite mind blowing as you say. But I could never make the leap before in my old
"guy body". Now it just seems it would be normal. I can see how a young TS would
be very very confused as she transitioned. And I suspect that many find a normal
relationship with a male more satisfying on all levels. And is there any bigger
validation for a TS than being thought of as desirable and attractive to a man?
Amanda
Quote from: Always Amanda on December 17, 2008, 03:07:43 PM
And is there any bigger validation for a TS than being thought of as desirable and attractive to a man?
I would think that would be the lowest form of validation.
When guys have a hard-on, they find linoleum attractive.
Sarah,
I agree with most of what you wrote...sexuality is fluid for many younger people, because they are still developing into who they'll be.
Even some young adults, are still wrestling with it when they are 25 to 30 or beyond.
I posted what I did concerning me, because I didn't want to be a trollop or thought of as a party slut. I am much to self respecting to be someone who'd have a kinky or bad reputation. My professional life can be made or broken depending on how I am perceived. As you age, it matters. It did and does for me. So, I chose...
In my circle of friends and associates, there are many gay/lesbian folks, as well as straight. I treat them as equals. In turn, I am loved by them. This is how I am. They are all respectable people. I believe in the adage; "Show me your friends, and I'll show you your future"...
Undoubtedly, Hormone Therapy scrabbles the brain, and can make you bonkers for a while. ( a foreign hormone induced new puberty arises and resets things for sure ) Since I was BI, whether I knew it or not, I wanted to settle down into the kind of life I wanted most. Where I ended up, wasn't what I saw for myself when I was 15 or 16. Not by a long shot.
None of us, goes anywhere, by accident. I personally don't believe in the " Hard Wired " sexuality claim. I'm BI, and I loved making it with a female, as a male, transitioning TS and female. I was glad I had the chance to experiment with both sexes. You really develop some perspectives as a result.
I feel much more complete and happy making love to my husband as a woman, than I ever did as the opposite. I will grant that hormones and SRS were major factors settling me into my sexual role as an adult. I wanted to be happy with my decisions, and I am.
None of them were decided by a throw of the dice...or happenstances.
You seem to have your head in the right place on this issue...I'm impressed.
By the way, best of luck with your FFS. We'll be waiting for the reveal...hugs.
I have a feeling that I am way more conservative than most...I am not a far left liberal...
Quote
When guys have a hard-on, they find linoleum attractive.
Damn. ;D
There was me thinking they were actually attracted to
me. :D
Wrong place, wrong time. :P
In my opinion, sexuality and its roles do not define us as people, so there shouldn't be any preparing to accept it even if it does change as one transitions.
Whatever floats your boat at any given time. ;)
Quote from: Vexing on December 17, 2008, 03:10:57 PM
Quote from: Always Amanda on December 17, 2008, 03:07:43 PM
And is there any bigger validation for a TS than being thought of as desirable and attractive to a man?
I would think that would be the lowest form of validation.
When guys have a hard-on, they find linoleum attractive.
Hey, don't be talking bad about that sexy, sexy linoleum.
I have thought about this... but I may be asexual, so I don't know if I really want to get involved in the whole business at all.
I'd like to be with a man who makes a great cup of tea. ;D
Quote from: Sophie90 on December 17, 2008, 03:28:09 PM
Hey, don't be talking bad about that sexy, sexy linoleum.
I have thought about this... but I may be asexual, so I don't know if I really want to get involved in the whole business at all.
I'd like to be with a man who makes a great cup of tea. ;D
Wouldn't said tea be even better if .....I spilt it on the linoleum. ;)
(Classic line Vexing, I love your direct way with words)
QuoteWhen guys have a hard-on, they find linoleum attractive.
I guess I've never been a guy then... linoleum is really ugly. :)
Amanda
Quote from: Always Amanda on December 17, 2008, 03:07:43 PM
And is there any bigger validation for a TS than being thought of as desirable and attractive to a man?
Oh, heck ya, there is. Being thought of as desirable and attractive to a lesbian is much bigger validation. They have a higher standard for you to meet. :P
My sexuality is what it is. I tend to be attracted to whom I am attracted and if the attraction has been great enough have formed relationships with both women and men. "Party Slut?" Sex parties have never been a particular fondness of mine, before or after transition.
Is sexuality "hard-wired?" I suspect it is, but that there are ways to condition one's self to at least sublimating their sexality in the interests of social/cultural standards they prefer to maintain their positions within.
Unlike Blanchard, Bailey and Zucker I am not a huge fan of the idea that you have "homosexual" or "heterosexual" TSes. (Of course small matters like biology and chemistry don't much seem to affect the perjudices and Neo-Freudian clap-trap of those three.) I think you have human beings who are gay, bi, or straight, period.
I believe that yoiu also have TSes who are the same way. I suspect that the hormones themselves do nothing at all to change one's sexuality: otherwise the reparative therpaist would be using T and E to "cure" gay males and lesbians. I suspect instead that many TSes cannot admit they are attracted to the "opposite sex" until such time that their bodies are in "the opposite sex." For others of us that hasn't been a huge problem and we've either been consistently attracted to what is now our "same sex" throughout or have been bisexual. (Add this to the many areas in which TSes appear to "disguise" or "not know" ourselves in our early lives.)
Amanda, I have to agree with Vexing about the "males attracted to me deal." I think men tend to look for ways to spread the seed and if your not abjectly hideous many might well be attracted. I've not found that to be as true of women.
But "validation" is not something I am very huge on anymore. Yep, at one time having someone attracted to me might have felt like validation -- but then I grew up and realized that my validation comes from me: my work, my children and life and my own self-respect.
Being screwed by some guy will not validate me. Never did before. And given the various proclivities of people to be attracted to all sorts of individual body parts, scents, clothes, etc I imagine that any real attraction and maybe validation comes from a long-term encounter with another rather than the passing glances or wolf-whistles or a night at the bar or a party whatever.
I'm not certain at all what the relevance is, but I am an ueber-Far-left liberal politically, at least by USA standards. :)
Nichole
Quote from: Vexing on December 17, 2008, 03:10:57 PM
Quote from: Always Amanda on December 17, 2008, 03:07:43 PM
And is there any bigger validation for a TS than being thought of as desirable and attractive to a man?
I would think that would be the lowest form of validation.
When guys have a hard-on, they find linoleum attractive.
I disagree and I find that statement offensive.
Whether or not it is true that all men think with their little head, I am sure that they don't like being stereotyped any more than we do.
Quote from: Kristen on December 17, 2008, 06:31:02 PM
Quote from: Vexing on December 17, 2008, 03:10:57 PM
Quote from: Always Amanda on December 17, 2008, 03:07:43 PM
And is there any bigger validation for a TS than being thought of as desirable and attractive to a man?
I would think that would be the lowest form of validation.
When guys have a hard-on, they find linoleum attractive.
I disagree and I find that statement offensive.
I'll buy you a sense of humour for Xmas, k?
I guess you find it funny when people stereotype you?
Quote from: Kristen on December 17, 2008, 06:41:56 PM
I guess you find it funny when people stereotype you?
Often.
I joke about being trans constantly.
In fact, just the other day I was talking with another member in PM's and suggested a trans humour forum ;D
It is one thing to have a sense of humor about yourself that isn't destructive, or eggs others to rip you.
Transitioning TS's should have a sense of humor, as they go through re-puberty, emotional high's and low's, and get to watch the greatest show on Earth; witnessing your body change again into this new creature.
Whereas, I don't find it funny to use our paradigm as fodder for off color remarks and jabs.( Jerry Springer was a disaster for our community ) We are already wound tight as it is, because of raging hormones and living, learning one day at a time. A little sensitivity please...
Quote from: Kristen on December 17, 2008, 06:31:02 PM
Quote from: Vexing on December 17, 2008, 03:10:57 PM
Quote from: Always Amanda on December 17, 2008, 03:07:43 PM
And is there any bigger validation for a TS than being thought of as desirable and attractive to a man?
I would think that would be the lowest form of validation.
When guys have a hard-on, they find linoleum attractive.
I disagree and I find that statement offensive.
Personally, I prefer to validate myself rather than depend on others doing it for me. And in that vane, I find the statement about men being the highest form of validation to be offensive as well as the statement about accepting our sexual role.
Now that there's enough offense floating around, let's have a reasonable discussion.
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 17, 2008, 07:41:51 PM
I find the statement about men being the highest form of validation to be offensive.
It ground my gears also; hence my response.
As a fairly staunch feminist, the idea of a
man being the ultimate validating influence...well, it's just bloody wrong.
it's hard for me to say what my roll is i have always done what is normal for me and that is the sub roll . "more the girl roll", but thats what i like everyone is diff. so i think the roll is diff. for everyone, and as long as your happy and your partner is to then its all good. its fun just finding your roll right!!!!!!
Quote from: Vexing on December 17, 2008, 07:43:58 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 17, 2008, 07:41:51 PM
I find the statement about men being the highest form of validation to be offensive.
It ground my gears also; hence my response.
As a fairly staunch feminist, the idea of a man being the ultimate validating influence...well, it's just bloody wrong.
Agreed, but it doesn't justify the disrespect towards men. That would just perpetuate the stereotype of a feminist.
Quote from: Kristen on December 17, 2008, 08:32:12 PM
Quote from: Vexing on December 17, 2008, 07:43:58 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 17, 2008, 07:41:51 PM
I find the statement about men being the highest form of validation to be offensive.
It ground my gears also; hence my response.
As a fairly staunch feminist, the idea of a man being the ultimate validating influence...well, it's just bloody wrong.
Agreed, but it doesn't justify the disrespect towards men. That would just perpetuate the stereotype of a feminist.
But I
am a very sterotypical feminist! :D
Funny, the real feminists I know never fit anysort of stereotype.
"When guys have a hard-on, they find linoleum attractive."
Back when I still considered myself male, I used to really get angry when people said things like this. I still don't like it because I think it really would be hurtful. I can't say for sure though, because for all I know the reason I disagreed so strongly with that might have been because I am not a man anyways.
Me too, and I'm not that all unhappy about being male, and no, not everyone gets laid.
Maybe validation was not the right word but I stand by my statement, if i find someone
attractive and they find me attractive for my feminine attributes so be it. I'm not
a feminist and never will be and to me it seems odd that a TS would identify as one, but
that's just me.
Amanda
I would think that almost everyone, wants to be considered attractive by at least someone's standard. And that's pretty good.
Quote from: Always Amanda on December 17, 2008, 10:32:29 PMI'm not a feminist and never will be and to me it seems odd that a TS would identify as one, but that's just me.
Why odd hon? Just curious.
~Simone.
What's wrong with a little validation anyways? As long as we know it is a two way street, (coming from w/in and w/out) and validation isn't everything. But I could use some validation for the holidays please, to keep me warm at night and make me breakfast.
Que sera, sera.
I found my first taste of my gender identity as a child.
I found my deep longing to transition in my mid/late teens.
I may find that during or after transition, I like boys and girls, or jsut boys.
Que sera, sera. It's all about self discovery. Getting self-prepared for an unknown that is the product of a willing change is just like getting a alien-proof bomb-shelter up. You don't know WHAT aliens are truely capable of, so no point in trying to make a shelter against one.
If I find out that I was really attracted to men, then so be it. It may be a mega-shock, but it comes with the territory. Can't stop it, can't "fix" it, gotta live with it, love it or hate it.
Quote from: tekla on December 17, 2008, 08:37:18 PM
Funny, the real feminists I know never fit anysort of stereotype.
I hope that includes me.
Well I have always liked women. Every single detail about a woman just gets me
going.
Men I like as friends but could never imagine a relationship with one or sexual relationship
either.
If it was a TS Girl Pre Op I probably could.
I dont see my sexuality changing as it has always been this way since I could
remember!
Quote from: Pariah on December 18, 2008, 01:51:07 AM
Getting self-prepared for an unknown that is the product of a willing change is just like getting a alien-proof bomb-shelter up. You don't know WHAT aliens are truely capable of, so no point in trying to make a shelter against one.
If I find out that I was really attracted to men, then so be it. It may be a mega-shock, but it comes with the territory. Can't stop it, can't "fix" it, gotta live with it, love it or hate it.
Personally, I have issues with that philosophy...Do you drive your car, with the windows painted black, and think; "If I crash or run over someone...Que Sara Sara!" Plus, that you don't need to put any thought or preparation into what you are doing?
You sound like a pacifist... "why try, when I can't do anything about any of it anyway?" " If they get me, they get me, OH!, well!"
Mothers do their utmost, trying to prepare and teach their girls, how to accept and deal with the tremendous responsibility they will shoulder as adult females. They don't just throw them out to the wolves, and say; "Now deal with it!" "There's no need for guidance or preparation, just do it, and learn." HA! no way!
Your reasoning is obviously based on a lack of being wise. Also that of a man.
Big or small, life is filled with trails we all have to face and then make decisions about. A prepared mind will know how to react. A lackadaisical attitude about the needs to own and deal with your sexual prowess and inclinations, is... well, immature! Maybe a conservative Bi-sexual like myself, see's things differently.
I owned my behavior, and adjusted as I settled into my new life. Many TS's apparently don't, and get caught up in major binds later on...especially after they have SRS. They did not prepare for afterwards..they went into it blind.
I love being a woman, I also respect it, and honor it. Being free at last, does not mean going around unprepared or muddleheaded...
Quote from: tekla on December 17, 2008, 08:37:18 PM
Funny, the real feminists I know never fit anysort of stereotype.
But they do: The fit the stereotype that they don't fit any stereotypes. :)
Quote from: Always Amanda on December 17, 2008, 03:07:43 PM
.... And is there any bigger validation for a TS than being thought of as desirable and attractive to a man?
Here's my $.02: I agree that's an excellent indication that a T-gal has been accepted as female. As is getting "ma'am'd" -- when she's in jean's, sneakers, and no makeup.
I think a lot of you spat nails when you read that because you interpreted that as a requirement. That is, you thought Amanda meant T-gals
must strive to be desirable and attractive to men. I don't believe that, and I didn't read that into Amanda's comment.
To get back to the original post,
Quote from: Rene' aka candygirl on December 17, 2008, 01:53:19 PM
....
And that is the point; how many of the younger TS gals and boys, have given this subject any thought. What is your true heart sexually? It is important to think it through, and come to realizations that you can live with. It can also have a huge impact on your transition as well as your life later. It did for me...
When I considered transitioning in college, I certainly gave that a lot of thought! And that was a major reason I didn't transition. I was attracted to girls, not guys. Although to be more accurate, it was more that I was utterly repelled by guys. The guys I knew in high school were horrible. I'd slit my throat before getting involved with anyone like them. As for girls ... well, a lot of them were horrible too. But at least a few of them were decent human beings. More than I could say for the guys.
Quote from: Rene' aka candygirl on December 18, 2008, 11:42:52 AM
Your reasoning is obviously based on a lack of being wise. Also that of a man.
Hmmmm... *narrows eyes* I have a hard enough time finding my own answers, let alone other people's.
See rule #15: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)
I'm going to steal one person's viewpoint and use it to lightly beat on some other viewpoints. But first, I'm going to take a couple of blurbs from Wikipedia.
The first is a definition adopted by academia: "Feminism is a belief in the right of women to have political, social, and economic equality with men."
The second is what I understand to be a somewhat popular mainstream belief: "Many antifeminist proponents say the feminist movement... now seeks higher status for women than for men."
In my judgment, there are some feminists that overreach, but antifeminist misogynism/sexism tends to be more at fault and writes off very reasonable goals that the broader feminist consensus generally adheres to.
So with all of that said, I'd be somewhat surprised if too many people here would be unhappy identifying (at least internally, as a concern of publically identifying would sometimes cause misunderstanding,) as a feminist.
Regarding the point of preparation, it can help immensely, but it's not going to take care of everything. Sort of the goal of preparation is that it'll take something very difficult (like transitioning) and make the task managable. It's not really designed to make sure things go nice and smoothly, but to reduce the challenges to a managable load. As such, some effort along these lines is still a good idea.
Also, there's something nonsensical about saying someone's reasoning is "that of a man" (with an edge of gratuitous male-bashing mixed in, as if that ever solves anything) and suggesting the person is a pacifist, an identity generally associated with women.
Quote from: Rene' aka candygirl on December 18, 2008, 11:42:52 AM
Quote from: Pariah on December 18, 2008, 01:51:07 AM
Getting self-prepared for an unknown that is the product of a willing change is just like getting a alien-proof bomb-shelter up. You don't know WHAT aliens are truely capable of, so no point in trying to make a shelter against one.
If I find out that I was really attracted to men, then so be it. It may be a mega-shock, but it comes with the territory. Can't stop it, can't "fix" it, gotta live with it, love it or hate it.
Personally, I have issues with that philosophy...Do you drive your car, with the windows painted black, and think; "If I crash or run over someone...Que Sara Sara!" Plus, that you don't need to put any thought or preparation into what you are doing?
You sound like a pacifist... "why try, when I can't do anything about any of it anyway?" " If they get me, they get me, OH!, well!"
Mothers do their utmost, trying to prepare and teach their girls, how to accept and deal with the tremendous responsibility they will shoulder as adult females. They don't just throw them out to the wolves, and say; "Now deal with it!" "There's no need for guidance or preparation, just do it, and learn." HA! no way!
Your reasoning is obviously based on a lack of being wise. Also that of a man.
Big or small, life is filled with trails we all have to face and then make decisions about. A prepared mind will know how to react. A lackadaisical attitude about the needs to own and deal with your sexual prowess and inclinations, is... well, immature! Maybe a conservative Bi-sexual like myself, see's things differently.
I owned my behavior, and adjusted as I settled into my new life. Many TS's apparently don't, and get caught up in major binds later on...especially after they have SRS. They did not prepare for afterwards..they went into it blind.
I love being a woman, I also respect it, and honor it. Being free at last, does not mean going around unprepared or muddleheaded...
I totally see where you are coming from. I REALLY over-generalized, because I didn't want to seem so abstract. I'm not going to get all detailed, but you are right, for the most part. Although the whole "lack of wisdom" and "view of a man" is a pretty misandristic thing to say. :D Also, I guess I am a pacifist. I take life as it comes and THEN try to turn it around.
I grew up around women all my life. I've been swamped in the stuff. So, to say the least, I HAVE seen how mothers teach their daughters and prepare them for the world of womanhood. And to be honest, your views are a bit skewed in themselves. To say that my reasoning is that of a man simply because I don't view things in a strictly analytical point of view, or that I AM pacifistic, means that I would most likely be immature about my sexuality. By your standards, SO VERY MANY of the young women I have met in my life would be "Man minded and unwise" because they are very much like me...some more wild and unprepared, unconcerned, and lax than I am.
BUT, I digress. for the most part, I agree. I can't find a way to accurately convey what my previous post was SUPPOSED to mean, but it was, in essence, me stating that I don't mind discovering more about myself, even if it means I have to make some changes based ona newly realised sexual preferance or attraction.
I'm sorry if I offended you in this second post of mine; that wasn't an intention, if it does happen.
That was really nice of you Pariah, I would have torn her a new one. You must be lovely. :-*
I guess a lot of how you react to Rene's question depends on how you feel about sexuality, whether you have any hang-ups, internalised homophobia or live in a society where sex is something you need to fortify yourself against.
Rene's view is pretty foreign to me and I don't really undrestand it. I'm not entirely sure what she is suggesting to prepare yourself against??
Or prepare for, and I was thrown by the 'accept' deal too (and even role, if you're really doing it, is it still a role, at what point does it just become a life?) you have to 'accept' things that tend to be either not enough, or not what you wanted.
Maybe it is having to accept heteronormality when she is sexually queer? That would be my guess. It is a fair enough choice and I respect that. We have enough crap to deal with but it really sounds like she has a lot of unfulfilled need. That would take some preparation to accept. It is like playing a part that does not come natural.
Perhaps, it's just my experience that sexuality is a pretty fluid deal, and it can, and often does, change over time for several reasons.
And even if you don't think of your own identity being fluid, the gender role attached to your identity *should* be. You should not feel you must accept living a certain way (gender role) just because of your gender is a certain thing (gender identity).
I didn't say that ID was fluid, though for many people it is, but just that sexuality was fluid in that it will often change over time.
I think what Kaelin said is still relevant though , especially if you look at sexual roles being part of your gender role.
Sexuality is a huge part of my experience with gender. When I became attracted to women, I thought, well, maybe those male hormones are kicking in and I'l be a guy after all. But it's been hard for me to be in a relationship because it tends to reinforce the societal expectations that I "be a man."
So refusing to "accept" my sexual role is a major part of what made me realize I couldn't keep trying to live as a male. Certainly not the only thing, but important. The notion of being a "boyfriend" or "husband" or -- god forbid -- "father" simply horrifies me. "Brother" and "son" are bad enough.
this is the whole problem with blogs, and literary intercourse's....semantics , perceptions and misunderstanding of intent.
I apologize for offending anyone. Perhaps I should stick to single syllable words. I have apparently been told, to drop it! Que Sara Sara!
Again; Sorry!
I think you summarized the point you were trying to make when you said --
Quote from: Rene' aka candygirl on December 18, 2008, 11:42:52 AM
I love being a woman, I also respect it, and honor it. Being free at last, does not mean going around unprepared or muddleheaded...
Now, everyone can take that however they want but, I think it is good advice on any topic.
I hear an extraordinary amount of defensiveness, on this and other posts, coming from people who are not listening to what a person is trying to say and where their heart is coming from but, instead, try to read between the lines and find offense at what they perceive to be there.
Heaven forbid someone else have an opinion or make a statement that is in contrast to our own! :icon_chillpill:
Yeah, that is the problem with blogs. Easy to misunderstand intent. I'm not offended. Just trying to understand better. I apologise if I have misunderstood.
We had quite a good discussion going on about things though, your topic has created some good debate. I particulalry like Alyssa's last addition, kicked my thoughts in a new direction.
Your quote that Kristen pulled out was a particulalry good one.
"Bam!!!!" the exact same thing I have been suggesting on and off since I got back to these forums 1 1/2 years ago. Just wish some folks would take the colton batton out of their ears or read the educational posts.
Quoteowned my behavior, and adjusted as I settled into my new life. Many TS's apparently don't, and get caught up in major binds later on...especially after they have SRS. They did not prepare for afterwards..they went into it blind.
I love being a woman, I also respect it, and honor it. Being free at last, does not mean going around unprepared or muddleheaded...
Tanks Candygirl
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on December 18, 2008, 02:29:26 PM
"Bam!!!!"
Careful where you wave that thing, near took my ear clean off. ;)
Quote from: Always Amanda on December 17, 2008, 10:32:29 PM
I'm not
a feminist and never will be and to me it seems odd that a TS would identify as one, but
that's just me.
What's odd about wanting equality for women?
I'm very confused by that too ... I'm not trying to transition from male to Schlafly.
Maybe Amanda is reacting to Janice Raymond and her ilk? >:(
I've always been attracted to men in every way.. yeah a lil bit of that is out of jealousy of the male body..
when i found out about gay relationships, sex, etc, it became almost an obsession, and it was all i'd fantasize about (how girly of me). This sounds silly but around 11-12 i got gaydar and if i somehow sensed a man was gay, i would have this strange undescribable feeling of attraction...
imagining myself as a woman with anyone, or especially with a woman just weirds me out, the idea just isn't natural to me. But the idea of having a connection with a woman as a man would be more like a Will & Grace type thing.. an emotional connection but never, ever, ever a sexual one. :)
I do not understand your reasoning about feminism either Amanda hon, Well if we didn't have women's rights then we would find ourselves in the same boat with job inequality, possibly even worse. I certainly don't relish selling myself on the street to make a living, as I have witnessed some of our sisters do because they can't pay their bills from little or no regular employment.
Why are we not natural allies for other women?
Cindy
An interesting question. I knew I was different at a very early age. As I grew older and became a teenager, I found myself attracted to both girls and boys. I eventually had a steady girlfriend whom I had known for years, but I couldn't help but feel some attraction to boys. Like you, I too eventually had my first experience with a guy I knew for years. Like you, I won't go into details. Over the years I have had other encounters. I've been married for many years now. I'm still attracted to both sexes. So, I'm quite certain I am bi and have been from a very early age. Now that I am again on the rollercoaster, I'm waiting to see what will happen next as I begin my gradual transition to being me.
I have never felt attraction towards men in any way shape or form thus I expect that I, once done transitioning, will be a heterosexual male. This being said although I am romantically attracted to women I have little to no sex drive so I may be asexual. It is also possible that this lack of sex drive is stemmed from my extreme discomfort with my physical self.
before, i really wasnt sure what i liked... one date with a girl which turned to a friendship, no more, I just had no drive or desire... Post transition, i began to like boys... Im with a guy now, while i find it a tad awkward. i think its just normal... hes my first boyfriend... i didnt expect it to be comfortable or easy... but i do know i love men... I have no desire to sleep with females... it just... seems wrong... As for my 'sexual role' i guess now is what id have done when i was a teen... abeit 5-6 years late... Sexual role isnt something you are taught, its learned by experience and practice...
practice is fun isnt it?
Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 18, 2008, 03:15:58 PM
I'm very confused by that too ... I'm not trying to transition from male to Schlafly.
Maybe Amanda is reacting to Janice Raymond and her ilk? >:(
Maybe she doesn't believe in feminism. There's a group of women who see feminism as unnatural, believe in patriarchy and are cozy being confined to a support role. I even met a girl once that thought the paragon of womanhood was being the power behind the (male) throne.
I think her argument to being a feminist TS being odd actually comes from the Raymond side or that second-wave extremism that treats the genetic female body as the source of all feminism.
For the record, I think that last position is a misunderstanding of the intent of feminism.
From my limited experience, the gender of my partner is not important to me (but then I'm bisexual). The main differences are not even genital, though those are differences. The main difference between an MtF transsexual and a GG is waking up with someone who has a scratchy face (a difference I don't mind). The main difference between an MtF transsexual and a GM is if the GM is awake, he wants sex (again, a difference I don't mind). I have no experience with FtMs.
Oh god yes! ill never understand how my boyfriend is so thirsty for sexual gratification... if hes awake, hes groping/stroking/ pawing at me... i swear he never gets tired of sex or foreplay... its a bit tiring at times... especially those times when you just dont want to be touched... you know?
I kind of feel like having a TS partner gives me the best of both worlds.
i like certain male attributes too much to want a f2m guy... Plus my main requirement of the guy to be over 5'10... my hight... cuts most out. Plus two transsexuals in one relationship = one hell of a lot of issues and lolocausts...
Starbuck -- check out Leith and Les on YouTube -- http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=->-bleeped-<-starGalactica (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=-%3E-bleeped-%3C-starGalactica)
Thanks but no thanks ;) I have my man, and im not swapping him out anytime soon.
Quote from: Starbuck on December 31, 2008, 02:17:16 PM
Plus two transsexuals in one relationship = one hell of a lot of issues and lolocausts...
No.
Hi Starbuck hon I should pray that you be happy with your guy, If he treats you good, hang on to him. they are priceless. ;D
Cindy
Quote from: Vexing on January 01, 2009, 05:57:58 AM
Quote from: Starbuck on December 31, 2008, 02:17:16 PM
Plus two transsexuals in one relationship = one hell of a lot of issues and lolocausts...
No.
Lovely explanation...
Have you seen what transgender issues can do in a relationship where ther is pne transperson? two = double the issues, double the difficulty... dont try and suggest that two transpeople would be perfect match... it can work... afterall we are all people, but id never do that personally because all i can see is it being very very messed up.
I see where you are coming from with that statement Srarbuck but every now and again one gets a winner. I have never had a better relation ship before in my life then I do with Wing Walker. And I also know at least another couple TS here that are sharing their lives together and really care and love one another. I can only pray for the happiness and love they deserve for those who are TS that they find an equally caring and loving partner whether it be another TS or cisgender man or woman.
Cindy
Quote from: Rene' aka candygirl on December 17, 2008, 01:53:19 PM
I finally decided, that in order for me to live in my new gender role, it would be easier if I was in a traditional relationship with the opposite sex.
Sounds like you compromised who you are just to fit in.... I rather be single than to do that. post edited to remove graphic details tht seemed inappropriate for this site. -- Nichole
My first relationship when I was 15 was a boy, but never got as far as the physical sex. I think I could have easily accepted a male for a partner back then if ahemmm, circumstances had been right. I had to women partners and in both cases it was a disaster looking for a place to happen. Finally I settled for a M-F trans and as far as I'm concerned I have not had anyone else treat me like she does. In other relationships for many years I was treated like I was low life. In my present relationship I don't remember anyone treating me like I was actually human.
Cindy
I love how ppl try to justify their beliefs/feelings when there is no logic to it, you like what you like, you want what you want.
Random:
QuoteThe main difference between an MtF transsexual and a GG is waking up with someone who has a scratchy face (a difference I don't mind). The main difference between an MtF transsexual and a GM is if the GM is awake, he wants sex (again, a difference I don't mind).
Really now....you honestly think those are the main differences? LOL
QuoteHave you seen what transgender issues can do in a relationship where ther is pne transperson? two = double the issues, double the difficulty... dont try and suggest that two transpeople would be perfect match... it can work... afterall we are all people, but id never do that personally because all i can see is it being very very messed up.
....and yet ppl do exactly that quite often. I don't get it either but they do.
QuoteQuoteI finally decided, that in order for me to live in my new gender role, it would be easier if I was in a traditional relationship with the opposite sex.
I'm guessing you already wanted that and the explanation came later.
QuoteI would CONSIDER being with a male if they had their testes removed
That's because you're L.
I don't understand wanting to be with a woman, or being bi, or liking TS because.....I like boys.
Does a man without testies suddenly become not male?
ROFL
Quote from: Starbuck on January 01, 2009, 12:17:14 PM
Does a man without testies suddenly become not male?
ROFL
Not without some other re-conditioning of expectations and social normalizing! :)
Quote from: Starbuck on January 01, 2009, 03:52:16 AM
Thanks but no thanks ;) I have my man, and im not swapping him out anytime soon.
Umm... I don't think they're looking for any 3-ways of 4-ways. They're just a funny and evidently non-issue-ridden trans couple. Not the only one out there by far. It takes all kinds. ;)
Quote from: Starbuck on January 01, 2009, 12:17:14 PM
Does a man without testes suddenly become not male?
Two words: Jake Barnes. :P
Me, I see myself as a Lesbian, Yes, I am a transgendered female, even though I am sexualy attracted to females. So I guess that i makes me a trans-lesbian. I want nothing to do with men or boys, my dad is a pain in the ass, an my mother dosent ever want to see me as the Girl I tuly am. the 2 of them think tha I am sme sick perverted sinner. I just want to be the womn that I know nature cheated me out of.
Quote from: Rosa on January 01, 2009, 02:23:42 PM
Me, I see myself as a Lesbian, Yes, I am a transgendered female, even though I am sexualy attracted to females. So I guess that i makes me a trans-lesbian. I want nothing to do with men or boys, my dad is a pain in the ass, an my mother dosent ever want to see me as the Girl I tuly am. the 2 of them think tha I am sme sick perverted sinner. I just want to be the womn that I know nature cheated me out of.
WELCOME ROSA ;D ;D
Quote from: Starbuck on January 01, 2009, 07:48:17 AM
Have you seen what transgender issues can do in a relationship where ther is pne transperson?
Having issues is not restricted to trans people.
Quotetwo = double the issues, double the difficulty... dont try and suggest that two transpeople would be perfect match... it can work... afterall we are all people, but id never do that personally because all i can see is it being very very messed up.
Again, two people means double the issues, regardless of whether or not they are trans.
Don't try and suggest two people would be a perfect match.
Until you have been in a relationship with another trans person, you are not qualified to comment; you're only spouting uniformed opinion.
Hi Rosa Welcome to Susan's
There is a few of us trans lesbians around if that is the desired label of the day
Cindy
what happened to just being a lesbian?
The same thing that happened to just being a person. ;)
Nothing wrong with being lesbian, what ever turns a persons crank is good enough for me and Bobby Mcgee. But I just don't go around advertising it. As far as the outside world goes Wing Walker and I are just two ladies sharing the same apartment and do our daily stuff together.
I ain't offering nothing unless someone asks is all and rarely has anyone asked except for one other lady who knows because she shares her life with another lady. Same with being tans, no one asked and I never offered. I could be part Martian to as well as Iroquois, do I have to climb on the roof tops and yell it out to everyone?
I am Cindy I am 63 years old grandmother, I don't have any grey hair yet. I like sparklies on my clothes, and here is my email address, and to some, my phone number and that is all I need to give out.
Cindy
Quote from: Starbuck on January 01, 2009, 07:48:17 AM
Quote from: Vexing on January 01, 2009, 05:57:58 AM
Quote from: Starbuck on December 31, 2008, 02:17:16 PM
Plus two transsexuals in one relationship = one hell of a lot of issues and lolocausts...
No.
Lovely explanation...
Have you seen what transgender issues can do in a relationship where ther is pne transperson? two = double the issues, double the difficulty... dont try and suggest that two transpeople would be perfect match... it can work... afterall we are all people, but id never do that personally because all i can see is it being very very messed up.
While it may seem on the surface that it'd be just more trouble, the fact that only another TS can
really understand TS issues would probably make things smoother in the long run.
EDIT: Just in regards to
those issues of course
I would think it would depend on the people involved. It's not like every straight marriage is made in heaven either.
Quote from: Vexing on January 01, 2009, 05:57:58 AM
Quote from: Starbuck on December 31, 2008, 02:17:16 PM
Plus two transsexuals in one relationship = one hell of a lot of issues and lolocausts...
No.
Any two
humans in a relationship is enough for that.
Quote from: Vexing on January 01, 2009, 03:19:41 PM
you're only spouting uniformed opinion.
LOL! :police:
Yes that is quite true, that only another trans person can truly appreciate and understand the issues of another transperson, but it was in the sharing of these issues that we found other qualities about one another that were quite compatible and unique.
Also considering the negative past experiences with prior relationship with cisgendered women was pretty well excluded out of any other remote possibility of a repeat performance in our lives.
After some deliberations we came to the conclusion that we had no interest is trying for another relationship with another woman, and we certainly didn't have any interests sexually with men. So here we are five years later siting here in BC as a married couple. Two individuals who love and care for each other. But I still don't feel it's anybody else out there's business.
My bad, I forgot to mention this part.
Cindy
I've gotten in to this thread quite late I guess but what the heck. At the risk of repeating what others may have said... here goes...
Quote from: Rene' aka candygirl on December 17, 2008, 01:53:19 PM
I often wonder how many young MtF TS girls, who are thinking of transitioning, or are actually in the process, think about what their sexual role will be in the end. It gets confusing to many. Some MTF's will only want to be with other women. Some with both women and men.
Then again, others will want to be with the opposite of their gender after they go through SRS. This applies to FTM's as well.
I was always labeled as gay from a young age. I didn't understand it at the time. I thought I liked to be with girls/females. I played with them, had them as friends, and dated them as a teen. Yet, I had an innate built in Gay-Dar, and was very aware of males who liked me, and wanted to be my boyfriend. It got particularly rough, when I was 15 to 17...gay men hounded me.
I didn't actually realize I was Bi-sexual until I was around 25 or so. It was during this time, I actually wanted a man and all that he could offer. I loved female relationships, and now was open to men as well. I was confused about what to do. Especially after what had I gone through years prior. Lots of counseling helped.
I won't go into particular's about the first time I openly accepted a males advance's. Let's just say; very different, very exciting and a little scary at the same time. Don't ask if I did or didn't, OK. It doesn't matter. He was my first, and was my lover/teacher for a while.
This was a monumental moment for me. And more than a little mind boggling. I had to think a long time about what my true preferences were, which was very difficult. I hopped back and forth across the fence for a long time. I liked it both ways. I never got involved in a three-some. Chances were there, but, I declined.
I finally decided, that in order for me to live in my new gender role, it would be easier if I was in a traditional relationship with the opposite sex. A man. Even though I am married to man I dearly and deeply love, and I would never cheat on him, I still eye the ladies...and they look back! It is difficult to push those feelings down. My husband is aware of this in me. He isn't threatened,for he knows he has my true heart.
And that is the point; how many of the younger TS gals and boys, have given this subject any thought. What is your true heart sexually? It is important to think it through, and come to realizations that you can live with. It can also have a huge impact on your transition as well as your life later. It did for me...
I remember that I always used to think that I was attracted to men (Gay apparently), but back then I was a teenager and the whole "Queer" scene was still underground so-to-speak. This coupled with my desire to be a girl was a little confusing to say the least. My problem was that I couldn't fathom why guys like to have sex with guys, and to be quite truthful I found the whole idea perverted.
Fast forward a life time... therapy, transition, HRT etc. and I find that I'm still attracted to men and it raised a lot of questions, questions that were raised during therapy, for as now that I know that I was/am/will always be a woman I can now understand why, and I can understand why I always looked forward to a monogamous heterosexual relationship.
I remember my first forays out into the club scene, dancing etc. It seemed so natural to date men, I had no interest what-so-ever in women. Even being pre-op I danced with and dated men, the strange thing was that I had never in my life ever been with another man, but it seemed so natural and easy. The was nothing sexual about it, I just needed to be with a man, and if the sexual part happened then so be it, it was as it should have been, and I think that this understanding was one of the important factors that contributed to my successful transition.
I remember that there was this gentleman at the club I frequented. He knew of my pre-op status and we danced together quite often. He was fairly attractive and a little younger than I was and we had fun together. Eventually it got to the point where he invited me to "His Place" for a night cap (If you get my drift.) Now I knew he was Bi-sexual but I didn't think that he would make the proposal that he did. I declined the offer telling him that I was not interested, that that is not who I was. A few years later (post-op) we are still friends and two weeks ago we found ourselves alone having a smoke outside of the pub, nothing unusual except for the fact that I now find him attractive sexually and it has progressed to the point now that we have both agreed that one of these days we will have "Wild erotic sex" lol. Funny thing...
So yes, I agree with Rene.
Steph
I consider myself to be a Female, and I am praying that I do find a sponser for the SRS/GRS. and Yes, I do consider myself as I have said in an earlier post, a lesbian, Trans-lesbian, whatever the term is these days.
Quote from: Steph on January 02, 2009, 12:51:23 PM
I've gotten in to this thread quite late I guess but what the heck. At the risk of repeating what others may have said... here goes...
Quote from: Rene' aka candygirl on December 17, 2008, 01:53:19 PM
I often wonder how many young MtF TS girls, who are thinking of transitioning, or are actually in the process, think about what their sexual role will be in the end. It gets confusing to many. Some MTF's will only want to be with other women. Some with both women and men.
Then again, others will want to be with the opposite of their gender after they go through SRS. This applies to FTM's as well.
I was always labeled as gay from a young age. I didn't understand it at the time. I thought I liked to be with girls/females. I played with them, had them as friends, and dated them as a teen. Yet, I had an innate built in Gay-Dar, and was very aware of males who liked me, and wanted to be my boyfriend. It got particularly rough, when I was 15 to 17...gay men hounded me.
I didn't actually realize I was Bi-sexual until I was around 25 or so. It was during this time, I actually wanted a man and all that he could offer. I loved female relationships, and now was open to men as well. I was confused about what to do. Especially after what had I gone through years prior. Lots of counseling helped.
I won't go into particular's about the first time I openly accepted a males advance's. Let's just say; very different, very exciting and a little scary at the same time. Don't ask if I did or didn't, OK. It doesn't matter. He was my first, and was my lover/teacher for a while.
This was a monumental moment for me. And more than a little mind boggling. I had to think a long time about what my true preferences were, which was very difficult. I hopped back and forth across the fence for a long time. I liked it both ways. I never got involved in a three-some. Chances were there, but, I declined.
I finally decided, that in order for me to live in my new gender role, it would be easier if I was in a traditional relationship with the opposite sex. A man. Even though I am married to man I dearly and deeply love, and I would never cheat on him, I still eye the ladies...and they look back! It is difficult to push those feelings down. My husband is aware of this in me. He isn't threatened,for he knows he has my true heart.
And that is the point; how many of the younger TS gals and boys, have given this subject any thought. What is your true heart sexually? It is important to think it through, and come to realizations that you can live with. It can also have a huge impact on your transition as well as your life later. It did for me...
I remember that I always used to think that I was attracted to men (Gay apparently), but back then I was a teenager and the whole "Queer" scene was still underground so-to-speak. This coupled with my desire to be a girl was a little confusing to say the least. My problem was that I couldn't fathom why guys like to have sex with guys, and to be quite truthful I found the whole idea perverted.
Fast forward a life time... therapy, transition, HRT etc. and I find that I'm still attracted to men and it raised a lot of questions, questions that were raised during therapy, for as now that I know that I was/am/will always be a woman I can now understand why, and I can understand why I always looked forward to a monogamous heterosexual relationship.
I remember my first forays out into the club scene, dancing etc. It seemed so natural to date men, I had no interest what-so-ever in women. Even being pre-op I danced with and dated men, the strange thing was that I had never in my life ever been with another man, but it seemed so natural and easy. The was nothing sexual about it, I just needed to be with a man, and if the sexual part happened then so be it, it was as it should have been, and I think that this understanding was one of the important factors that contributed to my successful transition.
I remember that there was this gentleman at the club I frequented. He knew of my pre-op status and we danced together quite often. He was fairly attractive and a little younger than I was and we had fun together. Eventually it got to the point where he invited me to "His Place" for a night cap (If you get my drift.) Now I knew he was Bi-sexual but I didn't think that he would make the proposal that he did. I declined the offer telling him that I was not interested, that that is not who I was. A few years later (post-op) we are still friends and two weeks ago we found ourselves alone having a smoke outside of the pub, nothing unusual except for the fact that I now find him attractive sexually and it has progressed to the point now that we have both agreed that one of these days we will have "Wild erotic sex" lol. Funny thing...
So yes, I agree with Rene.
Steph
Quote from: cindybc on January 02, 2009, 12:12:47 PM
Yes that is quite true, that only another trans person can truly appreciate and understand the issues of another transperson, but it was in the sharing of these issues that we found other qualities about one another that were quite compatible and unique.
To a point... Relationships should be based on mutual trust, understanding and honesty, and while trans folk have unique issues it is not necessarily true that only trans people can understand the issues. My ex completely understood the issues as did my ex boy friend of seven months and the breakups were not as a result of one not understanding the issues. One only needs to read the threads at Susan's and it is very apparent that even we have trouble understanding the issues :)
Steph
transpeople : the biggest barrier to trans acceptance.
transpeople : the biggest barrier to trans acceptance
Maybe if we all get rid of ourselves, we'll be accepted. Sounds like a pyrrhic victory to me. But I find I need little acceptance from others, so long as they get out of my way.
Hi Steph, I agree with you but I believe that speaking for myself I was pretty well burned out as far as having any other relationship with a Cisgender woman for different reason's among some I really don't like to repeat. I had already made up my mind I was going to spend the rest of my life as single.
I did not trust anyone female or male and was not interested in another relationship. I just wanted to live out the rest of my life as me, Cindy, just an ordinary compassionate social worker dedicated to supporting those who were in need. I met Wing Walker here on Susan's 7 years ago. She was the one who taught me how to truest another again and love evolved out of that trust. Anyway it's a long story and if anyone is interested about my story you are welcome to visit my blog.
And I am quite aware of trans issues and tribulations. I have been working with trans folks for almost as long as I have known Wing Walker, both here on the board and at the local trans support group here in Vancouver. Through the years I have also worked with street people, recovering alcoholics and addiction counseling, as well as mental health consumers, so I am quite familiar with support work even if I was suffering with some of my own issues.
Cindy
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,286.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,286.0.html)
Jeeeees Just because I'm a backwoods girl doesn't mean i am stupid. I shortened this post because I am beginning to believe that I am wasting my breath on some folks in this thread and on a couple of other threads as well. This is beginning to remind me very much of the school yard bullies I had the pleasure of getting my bumps and bruises from all those years ago just for being different. I am a woman, and have no desire of wasting my time with the school yard bully mentality.
I wasn't born yesterday and I am quite aware of the shin kicking contests that go on between members of this board, but it don't mean that some do come to benefit from discussions and support of others on this board.
I know personally of at least four couples on this board who are living happily together.
Cindy
Quote from: tekla on January 02, 2009, 01:23:18 PM
transpeople : the biggest barrier to trans acceptance
Maybe if we all get rid of ourselves, we'll be accepted. Sounds like a pyrrhic victory to me. But I find I need little acceptance from others, so long as they get out of my way.
It was half joke, half serious... Tbh The transcommunity has so much infighting, its hard for us to put up a coherent front without seeming like squabbling children to everyone else...
Then stop infighting ;)
Might be tragic, but its easier to say than to do, which is the opposite of IT come to think of it.
I love how the most anarcic member at the moment tells me to stop infighting....
Quote from: Starbuck on January 03, 2009, 04:59:07 AM
I love how the most anarcic member at the moment tells me to stop infighting....
I have never been, have never claimed to be and never will be, an anarchist.
Again, if you don't like infighting, cease starting fights (example: the quoted post).
Honey, there is a difference between pointing out irony, and starting fights. I'm amused by the fact that since your arrival, we only seem to clash... before you i didnt... so you must, without your knowlage be an anarchic catalyst... Ooh, another label for you to wave proudly on your banner of out awesomeness!
Quote from: Starbuck on January 03, 2009, 05:03:15 AM
Honey, there is a difference between pointing out irony, and starting fights. I'm amused by the fact that since your arrival, we only seem to clash... before you i didnt... so you must, without your knowlage be an anarchic catalyst... Ooh, another label for you to wave proudly on your banner of out awesomeness!
As I recall, you threw the first stone ;)
'keeping it anwynn since xmas 08'
NUFF SAID.
Quote from: Starbuck on January 03, 2009, 05:09:38 AM
'keeping it anwynn since xmas 08'
NUFF SAID.
Whatever your issue is, please keep it to yourself.
Is it too much to ask for a topic to not include vexing fighting for drama?
Put on ignore, for the sake of everyone's sanity.
Peace, out.
Oh, good. Please put her on ignore as well, Starbuck. You two obvioulsy can't communicate. As for me, I appreciate both your points of view, especially when you're not bickering. ;)
I'm sorry for any fuel I might have thrown on the fire.
Okay, back to packing for my FREAKIN' AWESOME TRIP TO THE MOUNTAIAINES!!!!!111!!!!1
Cheers!
~Alyssa
Before this thread gets cut off too I just wish to add something, possibly a strange dream anyway I woke up thinking about all of this transsexual stuff and being normal or striving to live a normal life. I mean I think striving to live as normal a life as we can possibly accomplish is our greatest goal in this life, is it not?.
While I was sleeping last night I had some kind of revelation or dream, whatever it was. I woke up with this impression that I had the answer and came here to wright it down before I forget.
I was thinking we went through or we go through this period of insanity in our lives, except that the insanity of transsexualism is not that transsexualism is the disorder. It's what we were before and after we were hit by GID that is the abnormality, and it was realizing that what we were suffering from a disorder prior to transitioning, or what lead to transitioning is what is all wrong.
Being what we were before leading up to transition was what was abnormality, and subconsciously and instinctively we knew that. Every fiber of our being screamed it at us until we did something about it.
All of this psychological and psychotherapy stuff we have undergone was to help us become normal functioning human beings so that we could live and cope as normal human beings within our own true beings. See, that also make sense as to why a lot of us choose to go stealth, we don't want to be reminded of the insanity we have experienced in the past to become our own normal selves.
Would you like to be reminded of a time spent in an insane asylum cowering in the corner of a padded cell sweating profusely, chewing on your fingernails and muttering to yourself intelligibly in fear and terror, locked up in your own mind not being able to communicate what is going on inside your own grey mater to anyone else?
I don't feel abnormal today? I have learned to live a normal life as the normal me in my correct gender and sexual Identity. This is me, I love me today. It's not some silly ass game, it's reality. To bring soul, body and mind online and in harmony with one another is as real as it gets.
It is those out there who play their silly ass games with us and so forth and so forth, not mentioning any names, shoot the message not the messenger. These are the ones with the unbalanced minds, the ones who don't want to see us get well because their silly assed little games would come to an end. See? Does that make sense?
Being who I am and having gone through the process would also explain why I have always had this compulsion to do everything within my power to help those who are in need. It is also part of me part of the instinct of the individual that I am.
Other wise what the "F" am I doing here wasting my time. I have a reasonably happy life, living as normally as I can as who I am, and there are plenty out there who would appreciated my support.
You see my only problem is I just don't see it like about 80% of the rest of the population of this world, like the attitude I don't do unless I know what's in it for me. I was never a what's in it for me selfish bitch like a lot of other people are out there. I was for a time and it nearly killed me to. I do pray most everyone here understands what I am speaking about.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on January 02, 2009, 12:12:47 PM
... that only another trans person can truly appreciate and understand the issues of another transperson ...
While I greatly appreciate Cindy's thoughtful contributions to this thread, I have to politely disagree with that statement.
And I appologize in advance for using labels like "trans people" and "non trans people," but I don't know how else to put it.
First, that statement implies that a non-trans-person couldn't possibly understand these issues. Isn't that presumptious? Sure, maybe a randomly selected "trans person" will understand another "trans person" better than a randomly selected "non-trans," but we're not talking about random selection. Do you really think that no one out there could understand? If nothing else, therapists do, don't they? The good ones, anyway. And they're not all "trans people," are they?
Second, that statement also implies that "trans people"
do understand each other's issues. Ah ... *sick chuckle* ... I offer up this thread as proof that that's not always true.
Sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you, Cindy. I really do like your posts, and you seem to be one of the voices of reason.
As Tekla said, it depends on the people.
I quite agree that not all none trans people understand the phenomena of transsexuality and some do, like for instance some of the researchers and therapists of course do. But on a general note there is also a lot of ignorance out there as well, and also unfortunately some who are trans are quite lost in the knowledge and nature of what trnassexuality is as well, Thus all the bickering.
How would one define transperson and none transperson I couldn't think of any other terms either so I use the simplest terms that came to mind. It only serves to confuse things more if one is strives to nit pic words and try to reinvent the wheel, that's what they are doing with many other types of research. Just like many here will nit pic words to death.
What's wrong with the simple word **passing** mean, for instance? I looked it up in three different dictionaries and all three basically say the same passing = To undergo transition from one condition, form, quality, or characteristic to another:
And Stereotype= Sociology. a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group:
I sometime wonder if it isn't done on purpose to confuse the masses even more to keep them in the dark about nay truths. The tin gods won't give up their tin thrones on top of poo poo hill that easily. Na, let us go down and confuse the masses, lets keep them in the dark and at each others throats. That is exactly what I am opposed to.
Hone I get disappointed with some people, I don't dislike or hate anyone not even those who seek to stir the chamber pot and confuse us. I don't dislike you for no agreeing with everything I say, actually it's nice to know someone is reading my stuff. ;D
Maybe I'm just old fashioned and need to go to one of those fancy colleges or something to get reeducated.
MarySue that small passage;
Quotethat only another trans person can truly appreciate and understand the issues of another transperson ..
Was also meant for a few select not the masses. It hold true for my partner and I and a couple of other couples here I know as well.
Cindy
Quote from: MarySue on January 03, 2009, 01:26:29 PM
Quote from: cindybc on January 02, 2009, 12:12:47 PM
... that only another trans person can truly appreciate and understand the issues of another transperson ...
While I greatly appreciate Cindy's thoughtful contributions to this thread, I have to politely disagree with that statement.
And I appologize in advance for using labels like "trans people" and "non trans people," but I don't know how else to put it.
First, that statement implies that a non-trans-person couldn't possibly understand these issues. Isn't that presumptious? Sure, maybe a randomly selected "trans person" will understand another "trans person" better than a randomly selected "non-trans," but we're not talking about random selection. Do you really think that no one out there could understand? If nothing else, therapists do, don't they? The good ones, anyway. And they're not all "trans people," are they?
Second, that statement also implies that "trans people" do understand each other's issues. Ah ... *sick chuckle* ... I offer up this thread as proof that that's not always true.
Sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you, Cindy. I really do like your posts, and you seem to be one of the voices of reason.
As Tekla said, it depends on the people.
What a refreshing breath of air....
I agree, How do we understand the issues? is every therapist trans? im sorry, but we have to learn about the issues, and the theory pretty much describes it as it is... If its able to be put down on paper, id not think so lowly that non trans people cannot read...
I'll take the little critters you can keep the mean old ->-bleeped-<-s. ;D
Cindy
Oh god... Please.... Nooooooo!!!!!!
"Hee, hee, hee." I think of myself as an aging lady living out whats left of a reasonably happy life and I deserve it to. I wouldn't leave you stuck with some mean old ->-bleeped-<-s, we just take them over our knees and spank them like spoiled bratz des iz. ;D
Cindy