LGBT inmates face unusually high risk of sexual assault in prison
http://www.sfbg.com/entry.php?entry_id=7733&catid=&volume_id=398&issue_id=411&volume_num=43&issue_num=13 (http://www.sfbg.com/entry.php?entry_id=7733&catid=&volume_id=398&issue_id=411&volume_num=43&issue_num=13)
Meghann Myers
12/24/2008
It's been 60 years since the United Nations General Assembly issued the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, affirming the inherent dignity and inalienable rights of all people. Yet prisoners are often denied the most basic protections of the law. Rape is still a brutal reality in prison, a problem that disproportionately affects LGBT inmates.
Thats so sad.
Though i think it could probably have been reasonably guessed without needing to do the research.
Yeah, like the sun's gonna come up in the East you can predict it.
It still helps to really know without guessing.
"It's been asked more than once in training sessions that if transgender inmates are at such risk, why are they still allowed to be transgender within the prison environment?"
"Then, all too often, they are placed in isolation cells usually reserved as punitive measures."
I know its better to do research and be certain about stuff. But when no research has been done, thats so often used as an excuse to not tackle a problem, even if there is anecdotal evidence supporting it.
so take a disadvantaged town and build a ->-bleeped-<--tentiary!
Quote from: iFindMeHere on December 25, 2008, 01:18:36 AM
so take a disadvantaged town and build a ->-bleeped-<--tentiary!
Actually in mid and late 80's the state of California had a place that could be described like that.
It was mainly for pre-op transwomen but also for effeminite gays. But later it was closed and pre-op transwomen are currently in different male prisons in California. California prison placement for transwomen is currently strickly based on status of external genitalia. (Vaginoplasty done or pxxxx still exists.)
What do they do with intersex people? Or do they just not commit crimes?
I don't know about England, but you really, really want to try to stay out of the California Prison-Industrial Complex if you can. ->-bleeped-<- or not. San Quentin, Folsom, Solidad, Pelican Bay - not places you want to be, world famous as being very, very, bad places to be, no matter who you are.
But cis-women and post-op transwomen have a quit nice prisons in California.
At least prison,s in Chowchilla are nice using the relative standars.
It wasn't one of life ambitions to go to prison! From what i've read british (and rest of western world) prisions are better places to be than american jails. But still not pleasant. And worryingly high suicide and self-harm rates, as well as drug abuse, and physical/sexual abuse.
I'm quite happy where i am!
They are not, I don't know what your reading, but like all prisons, male and female, they are run by gangs based on race, and its pretty brutal stuff, not to mention the weather. But hey, if you want to do the time, all you have to do is the crime - and get caught.
I confess to reading newspapers with a slight (or not so slight) anti-american bias. That could be where i heard it from!
Hmmm... i don't plan on ever getting caught... mwahahaha!
No bias needed to find out that your don't want to be in a prison here, or even a county jail.
I think that people do not anywhere want to be in prison. And county jails are usually worse. ( Maricopa, AZ for example)
But CCWF and VSPW are both places that women describe sometimes ok. It is different for example in some other US states.
Yeah Sheriff Joe the A-Hole, mostly, at least in Cali, if you get less than a year you go to the county, but anything from a year and a day up goes to the state system.
I'm sure there are lots of insane people in prison, but I've been in (as a visitor/teacher) and its no place I want to be.
Well, your welcome to do some crime and join her, however the joke is, California is not bad, most places are much worse, anyplace down South, you might as well die in a shootout before you go to someplace like Angola, or to SingSing or Attica.
Where are these 'nice prisons' I'm kind of doubting it, and those I listed are in the South or East Coast.
Well don't believe everything you read, and remember the old confederate states all have death sentences, and would just as soon kill you as feed you.
I am sorry but i had to remove those texts to protect those ladies I wrote.
Quote from: Jenny on December 25, 2008, 08:44:19 AM
What do they do with intersex people? Or do they just not commit crimes?
If the correctional people decide it's a penis, they put them with the men.
I know 2 post-op women incarcerated in America. I write more just for us.
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 25, 2008, 02:45:21 PM
Quote from: Jenny on December 25, 2008, 08:44:19 AM
What do they do with intersex people? Or do they just not commit crimes?
If the correctional people decide it's a penis, they put them with the men.
I mean thats my point, if doctors struggle to tell the difference between a micro-penis and a clitoris, then how is a prison warden going to be able to? They might as well decide an intersex persons "prison sex" by chance. Which really makes the present system completely farcical!
Well, the doctor cares, the warden doesn't.
In case you have undergone full SRS it would very odd to say that you have a penis.
Quote from: goingdown on December 25, 2008, 06:31:20 PM
In case you have undergone full SRS it would very odd to say that you have a penis.
In Texas that doesn't matter. Pre-op or post-op, you're put in with the men. Unless you're FtM. Then you're put in with the women.
So you are from Texas because you know that so well?
I would sooner go back to living on the street where I was 23 years ago then go to any of those jails. I only spent one night in a drunk tank and that was an open cell deal. They didn't lock the cell door if they considered you harmless. Good place to be on a cold night. Give you something to eat and all the coffee you can drink then kick your ass out as soon as it's day light. ;D
Anyway I won't be back to this thread, gives me the creeps.
Cindy
the answer that you absolutely mostly get when you ask from expert is that most state house post-op traswomen with women.
Now we found a state that is expection for general practice is Texas. Other states?
Prison would seem an aweful situation... I can see cases where it would be accidental, or wrongful, but in cases of guilt, the person does need to realise thier actions... If you break the law, you go to jail... but i think it is unfairly cruel to subject a m2f of any stage, that is transitioned, to male prison...
I fail to see the relevance of the excuses of putting m2fs in these jails... they may leer at the women or attack them? erm, only as much as any of the other lesbian females in womens jails... oh gosh, a woman might see a penis! big fething deal.... they are in jail, i doubt its going to be a huge shock should they possibly see a glimpse...
Any idiot who is for putting m2fs in male jails must see the fact they are consigning people to abuse and rape... but hey, we are subhuman to them, what do they care?
Quate: woman might see a penis (penis can be used to rape)
That is a main argument against putting any pre-ops to female prisons. However in most states post-ops are also legally women so I assume that they go to female prison (expect Texas?)
hands can be used for rape... i dont see them being banned from womens prisons...
and its CAN not will, this all hinges on sexuality, a lesbian can rape another woman, why would a m2f, just for posession of a penis, want to rape a woman? apparently m2fs transition because they are gay men... but now we all want to rape women when we go to prison...
:P somethings awry...
I do not know any state in the USA that would house pre-ops (with penis) in female prisons. However majority of states house post-ops (without penis) to female prisons.
Even the rule is based mainly for wrong reasons according to my sources it is the best rule TS-women in the USA may have. Other is rule like Lisbeth described being in TX.
I go even so far that I place a little question mark after the described TX situation!
Quote from: goingdown on December 26, 2008, 03:10:47 AM
So you are from Texas because you know that so well?
No, thank god, but I know girls who are and/or were.
Quote from: Starbuck on December 26, 2008, 05:35:21 AM
hands can be used for rape... i dont see them being banned from womens prisons...
and its CAN not will, this all hinges on sexuality, a lesbian can rape another woman, why would a m2f, just for posession of a penis, want to rape a woman? apparently m2fs transition because they are gay men... but now we all want to rape women when we go to prison...
:P somethings awry...
Let's be clear about Texas law here. You are and always will be what it says on your birth record in Texas, and Texas law says that "rape" is a male forcing intercourse with a female. Therefore a lesbian cannot rape anyone, and forcing intercourse with an MtF post-op person is not rape. It may be assault, but it's not rape.
I have asked many times the question from people in different states. All say that post-op go to female prison. Why TX is different?
Each county in Texas makes their own rules.
For example OH does not recognize legal sex change. When asked how OH DOC places a transwoman they say that it depends on external genitals. TX seems to be meaner.
Quote from: goingdown on December 26, 2008, 09:11:43 AM
I have asked many times the question from people in different states. All say that post-op go to female prison. Why TX is different?
Why does Texas execute more prisoners than the next five states put together?
Texas is meaner. Leads the nation in executions.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2008%2F12%2F25%2Farts%2Flight3.jpg&hash=640e09af2ac834276e915266ec400546aeb231db)
More correctly its called "Federalism" the idea that some powers are given to the national government, while others are reserved for the states. Who gets what powers has lead to about 200+ years of arguing and a very bloody Civil War.
If you are found guilty of a state crime, you go to a state pen, if you are guilty of a federal crime, you do federal time. The differences are huge. First off, there is no parole, or time off for good behavior in the federal system, and though many federal prisons are called 'country clubs' others like the Super-Max in Colorado or the one in Marion Ill. are pretty foreboding.
Other areas are still touchy, gun laws (some states like New York, its all but impossible to get one, other states, you can walk in off the streets and walk out with an arsenal. Drug laws are another, in Texas, which seems to be the running example, The possession of up to a pound of marijuana (this includes very minor amounts) will generally carry a sentence of 6 months to 2 years in a state jail and a $2,000 - $10,000 fine. Other places, have decriminalized small amount, other have open marijuana sales if you have a medical card. Card or no, its all but impossible to get busted for puffing in SF unless you blow the smoke in the cops face, and even then...
So, a lot depends on where you are, what you are charged with (and you are not going to walk easy on any sex charge that involves a minor anywhere) and, of course, how good your lawyer is.
And, I think you are referring to the case of Christie Lee Cavazos Littleton.
Quote from: Emme on December 26, 2008, 10:00:01 AM
I came across a case in TX of a post-op transwoman who was filing a wrongful death suit for the death of her husband. (It may have even been posted by the News Staff here. I can't really remember but if it wasn't I will try to find a link to it.) The judge said that because her legal gender was male (despite full SRS), she was not legally married. And, since she wasn't legally married, she had no grounds to file a wrongful death suit.
The Littleton case established the precident on which current Texas law is based. It's curious how legislating from the bench is ok as long as the judge is a good Republican. Prior to the Littleton case, Texas was in line with most of the other states and recognized gender change with proper documentation.
QuoteTX does not allow you to change your gender marker.
That depends on the county, lawyer and judge. There are MTF born in Texas that not only have their name and gender marker changed but are also legally married in Texas. Money talks some people walk.
legislating from the bench is ok as long as I agree with the verdict.
And I asked some time ago from an paralegal with transexperience will the Littleton case affect TX-prison placement. And she answered that probably not. It would create huge amount of civil right litigation. Why the cases are not brought to court (post-op placed male-prisons). According the paralegal there are federal laws that could be interpreted to be broken, even constitution in this kind of policy.
For example execution by stoning cannot be a state right.
Well precedent could be used to move the finding of one case to another, however, as with anything in the legal system, you have to have someone good enough to make the case, and the right kind of case to apply it to.
And sure they could stone people, I'm sure that would get a suit about 'cruel and unusual punishment' right quick, and they are unlikely to do that having approved (ones where precedent has been set) methods including: lethal injection, hanging, firing squad, electrocution - see Florida where they even have a pet name for the chair, 'Old Sparky' - and poison gas. Each state is free to pick its favorite, at least for the states that have capital punishment, which is not all of them.
Pre-op hormone treatment cases have ven brought to state and federal courts some with success. I think that placing an inmate who has external female genitals with male would make a good case.
I can however find one argument: Losing the case would be too dangerous and give example to other states.
Court systems are over-run with prisoner rights cases, most filed by people from jail, most tossed without comment. I would think right now, given what is going on in the US, prisoner rights is about #48 on the list of the top 10 things we are worried about, or interested in working on. In terms of 'T' issues I doubt that it ranks that high either. The most pressing police problems of the 'T' community seem to focus on the local level and TG persons involved in the sex industry, and the housing of such people on the local level for much smaller amounts of time.
She was also intersexed activist and let me understood that transcommunity should take all transsexuals again as it concern. Not sell some out for political acceptance. Otherwise most states will place post-ops in the future with male.
That all gender issues are a concern, does not mean they can't be ranked in order of both # of people affected (in this case, very few) and ability to solve the problem (in this case, very low) and that limited resources should be applied to the problems that affect the most people and have a fairly easy solution.
And, in the States, and I'm sure other cultures have some sort of similar idea, the old adage is that If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. There is not a lot of sympathy for prisoners in the first place, and as you've seen, even less for one who has some sort of sexual abuse of a minor charge against them.
For example in my country the prison system says: Nobody who has been born as male will not be accepped to women's prison. However we have a law about juridical sex change that will say the last word in case genital surgery is done. Somebody just have to get a charge and make an appeal. Then it is generally believed that the so called official opinion changes.
Then go to jail in your country. I'm sure that no one enjoys their stay with the State of California, I'm pretty sure they try to make it that way too.
Quote from: goingdown on December 26, 2008, 11:59:08 AM
I can however find one argument: Losing the case would be too dangerous and give example to other states.
This is what happened with the Littleton case. Nebraska went down right after Texas and Ohio wasn't far behind.
Many women have a good time in two prisons of Chowchilla. They are only humane prisons in California. And they have quit good conditions there.
Thank God that law has changed in Canada. Any person forcing themselves on another against the others consent is considered rape and you are charged as such regardless whether you are female or male. The biggest problem is what red blooded male will admit to being raped by a woman. It took me twenty five years before I got the nerve to bring it up to my psychiatrist. Thus you would seldom hear of a female perpetrator being charged of a sexual offence against a man, but it happens.
Cindy
Conditions at Chowchilla
More women are incarcerated in the small Central Valley town of Chowchilla - where the largest women's prison in the country is across the street from the second largest - than any other place in America. The two adjacent state prisons are the Central California Women's Facility with around 3,500 inmates, and the Valley State Prison for Women, with another 3,400 (both facilities were designed to house 2,000 inmates each).
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/08/09/18295787.php (http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/08/09/18295787.php)
For many pre-op transwomen in California male prisons those conditions described would feel like heaven.
I would rather do ten years there as cis-woman than one year in my homecountry's male prison.
This has nothing to do with me but i wonder will they treat post-op transwomen worse than cis-women in Chowchilla?
Hi Tekla, Thank you for posting this link. One paragraph stood out from all the others although much of what this lady wrote brought tears to my eyes.
QuoteI am learning to live in the moment, to seek joy in small glimpses, to value the wisdom of the universe despite my surroundings and the constant fear. I am learning to look for the love and goodness in most people despite the facade or anger they may exhibit.
If those statistics are correct then it is quite possible for us to break some silly ass law in some backwoods town populated with tobaccie chawin red necks and end up with our ass in such a jail just for being different let alone TS, TG, or an alien from Outer-space.
The woman who wrote that was not breaking some silly law, 25-life is a sentence in California for first degree murder. And she says she is not guilty. So does every other person in there.
In case there was a magical tool I really would consider to trade places with her.
In case I would be innocent.
I do not want to become ever a murderer.
Tekla hon, please listen carefully to what I am saying and stop putting stuff there that isn't there. When I speak I speak without malice, rancor, and without any hidden agendas nor messages. Read my posts at face value, please! Thank you.
I was sympathising with the lady but also admiring her strength. I'm just an old woman I wouldn't last two days in one of those places, nor would I last long on the streets anymore either. Take me behind the barn and shoot me.
I wasn't insinuating she was in there because she broke some silly ass law. She was wrongly charged with murder and according to her numbers there are;
Quote1,300,000 non-violent people currently incarcerated
I wouldn't want to be among those number getting locked up in one of those places for some Petty violation, which is a possibility in Texas someone mentioned.
Cindy
She is accused, tried, and convicted of killing her husband because his divorcing her would upset plans for her business expansion. Murder for profit. Murder one. Killed him, put his body in a car and dumped it. And the defense that didn't work for her? She tried to blame her daughter for it. Nice lady.
Ok there was another side to this record. Do you have any other links we could follow up on this?
Cindy
Put her name into Google, she been featured on the series "Women Who Kill" so they no doubt would have clips of her. It was a huge trial, with several appeals.
The July trial of Jane Dorotik, who was found guilty in June of
beating and strangling her husband, then dumping his body along
his favorite running path, was covered gavel to gavel by the CBS
news magazine "48 Hours," which aired the story during a hour long
segment last month.
Thanks I found the article and read it. I tried to open a video they had on AOL but like usual most times stuff on AOL is *kapootskie.* Wing Walker is working on getting a download on it from Peer-2-peer file sharing program.
Cindy