I'm surprised to see the category androgyne used so prominently on these threads. I've never met someone who said they are androgynous tho I've met lots of genderqueers.
What's the difference? Is there a difference? I have my idea, but it sounds like people here use it more loosely.
Androgyne doesn't have the suffix "queer".
That's why I prefer it anyway.
I don't know what the difference is. I assumed they were interchangeable.
Quote from: Sophie90 on December 27, 2008, 01:57:15 PM
Androgyne doesn't have the suffix "queer".
That's why I prefer it anyway.
I don't know what the difference is. I assumed they were interchangeable.
I see. That's one reason I DO like genderQUEER.
Quote from: Ephilei on December 27, 2008, 02:15:01 PM
Quote from: Sophie90 on December 27, 2008, 01:57:15 PM
Androgyne doesn't have the suffix "queer".
That's why I prefer it anyway.
I don't know what the difference is. I assumed they were interchangeable.
I see. That's one reason I DO like genderQUEER.
Hmm, well, in the UK declaring yourself "queer" is a fasttrack to eating lunch by yourself in the corner.
It's not a word with positive connotations.
Quote from: Sophie90 on December 27, 2008, 02:19:41 PM
Hmm, well, in the UK declaring yourself "queer" is a fasttrack to eating lunch by yourself in the corner.
It's not a word with positive connotations.
I agree. Symbols have whatever connotation we give them. People using "genderqueer" are giving queer a good connotation.
Does that mean the difference is just political?
ive always thought they were interchangeable. though some people seem more like one than the other. picapica for example sems like an androgyne because ze is so cool and laid back. seems like queer is too "loud". me on the otherhand... im pretty ->-bleeped-<-gy and RAWR and weird so i think genderqueer or just queer fits me pretty well.
I don't know, to me androgyne seems more an equal and subtle mix of male and female identity, while genderqueer seems more malleable and has a much more overt presentation. I'm crawling out on a flimsy limb here, mind you.
Mina.
I have a love/hate relationship with the word "androgyne" as it seems to me to inadvertently reinforce the binary (andro + gyne).
But, I dislike genderqueer because of the suffix "queer." The dictionary definition of "queer" either implicitly or explicitly describes something that is wrong.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/queer (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/queer)
Non-binary gender variant is a mouthful, but it's a term I prefer. That, and genderflux.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on December 28, 2008, 10:05:05 PM
But, I dislike genderqueer because of the suffix "queer." The dictionary definition of "queer" either implicitly or explicitly describes something that is wrong.
Agreed, don't like that definition.
Maybe i'm like popeye. I am what I am LOL.......
Quote from: Chet on December 27, 2008, 09:51:18 PM
ive always thought they were interchangeable. though some people seem more like one than the other. picapica for example sems like an androgyne because ze is so cool and laid back. seems like queer is too "loud". me on the otherhand... im pretty ->-bleeped-<-gy and RAWR and weird so i think genderqueer or just queer fits me pretty well.
Yeah, I always kinda thought of genderqueer as androgyne with the volume turned waaaay up.
Yeah, I never liked genderqueer, it does seem loud and trying to call attention to itself instead of being just 'there'.
But that is probably because of people I've met. Most of the queer people i know have had me weighed, judged and found wanting, it seems you have to follow a very strict code to fit in, and i don't really do strict codes.
Quote from: Pica Pica on December 29, 2008, 01:57:13 AM
Yeah, I never liked genderqueer, it does seem loud and trying to call attention to itself instead of being just 'there'.
But that is probably because of people I've met. Most of the queer people i know have had me weighed, judged and found wanting, it seems you have to follow a very strict code to fit in, and i don't really do strict codes.
you don't fit in with genderqueers? why? i'dve thought you would.
they were whiny queeny wankers
ah. yeah and you're not queeny; just whiny.
absolutely
I've never heard the word "queer" used for positive connotation. Even when used by self-described "queers", it's used in the way that racial slurs are used by members of the given race.
Personally, I prefer specificity in definition, but if I had a more difficult-to-explain label I'd probably feel differently ("genderless" rolls off the tongue rather nicely). Although I will say, "androgyne" does sound really cool.
I prefer androgyne for myself. Seems gentler, less confrontational than genderqueer. I also like using non binary gender variant, however it is a mouthful. I should probably just tell people I'm from another planet though, any of these terms tend to elicit a similar response, as in WTF is this Z person talking about anyway. ;D
Z
Quote from: Pneumonica on December 29, 2008, 03:49:23 AM
I've never heard the word "queer" used for positive connotation. Even when used by self-described "queers", it's used in the way that racial slurs are used by members of the given race.
Personally, I prefer specificity in definition, but if I had a more difficult-to-explain label I'd probably feel differently ("genderless" rolls off the tongue rather nicely). Although I will say, "androgyne" does sound really cool.
To me, queer is (to quote dictionary.com): "strange or odd from a conventional viewpoint; unusually different; singular". There is no inherent value judgement in there. Negative value judgements are added to the word by people who think being different is bad. To me though, my gender is different, odd, unusual... so what? Variety is a good thing, we're all different anyway regardless of what categories a single aspect of our existence fits into. To me it's a neutral term.
I guess the term can be seen as confrontational, because it's confronting the idea that being outside the norm is a bad thing. The only downside to me using the term to describe myself is it may lead people to think that I identify outside the binary solely for activism purposes. Anybody who gets to know me though will know that that's not the case at all.
I don't identify as androgyne as I don't feel many of the definitions of that term I've seen (including the one for this forum) particularly resonate with me.
Quote from: Andra on December 29, 2008, 09:33:12 AM
To me, queer is (to quote dictionary.com): "strange or odd from a conventional viewpoint; unusually different; singular". There is no inherent value judgement in there. Negative value judgements are added to the word by people who think being different is bad. To me though, my gender is different, odd, unusual... so what? Variety is a good thing, we're all different anyway regardless of what categories a single aspect of our existence fits into. To me it's a neutral term.
I guess the term can be seen as confrontational, because it's confronting the idea that being outside the norm is a bad thing. The only downside to me using the term to describe myself is it may lead people to think that I identify outside the binary solely for activism purposes. Anybody who gets to know me though will know that that's not the case at all.
I don't identify as androgyne as I don't feel many of the definitions of that term I've seen (including the one for this forum) particularly resonate with me.
I guess I don't see my gender identity as "odd." It's just who/what I am. Why should that be odd? And, why should I accept the notion of what others consider to be odd?
I prefer a non-confrontational stance, as being confrontational has not served me well thus far. I understand that others are able to pull it off quite well. Confrontational attitudes and stances put me off, though.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on December 29, 2008, 10:20:22 AM
I guess I don't see my gender identity as "odd." It's just who/what I am. Why should that be odd? And, why should I accept the notion of what others consider to be odd?
I prefer a non-confrontational stance, as being confrontational has not served me well thus far. I understand that others are able to pull it off quite well. Confrontational attitudes and stances put me off, though.
The vast majority of people in western culture are binary identified. Being non-binary therefore fits the definition of odd.
For some reason, there's a strong sense of deja vu here...hmm...
To me, androgyne just sounds prettier. :-\ Honestly, it's all about your personal tastes. I've gotten more comfortable with genderqueer just because no one understands "androgyne" when I say it. I always tell them it's like "genderqueer" and they seem to get it (those "in the know" anyway).
Quote from: Andra on December 29, 2008, 12:45:02 PM
The vast majority of people in western culture are binary identified. Being non-binary therefore fits the definition of odd.
But I've never heard it used in a good way. My grandmother would say something's queer meaning it was strange, but it didn't have a good connotation. :-\ Again, I think it's all a matter of semantics and personal tastes anyway.
In New Zealand where I live I have heard among queer youth workers that there is a movement to reclaim the word queer as something positive. I think this is a good thing. I would say I am genderqueer in that I am an androgyne. Gender queer for me just means different from the binary genders and does not actually describe what I am.
I'm all about reclaiming.
I feel the use of "queer" does more than describe me personally, it says to the world that being different is ok. Let's face it, our genders are different. Avoiding the word "queer" is like saying we don't think being different is ok, or it's only ok in private.
I like the word queer, I think you can wear it with pride. Makes me feel like part of something bigger.
Quote from: Nicky on January 04, 2009, 08:25:22 PM
I like the word queer, I think you can wear it with pride. Makes me feel like part of something bigger.
True. There are millions of queer people but it's hard to find an androgynous/genderqueer person.
Quote from: Ephilei on January 04, 2009, 08:28:45 PM
Quote from: Nicky on January 04, 2009, 08:25:22 PM
I like the word queer, I think you can wear it with pride. Makes me feel like part of something bigger.
True. There are millions of queer people but it's hard to find an androgynous/genderqueer person.
I agree with the part of something bigger but the gay comunity seem to have claimed this for themselves in the same way that GLBT groups are mostly GL only I have yet to find a genderqueer person in RL except me :(
Quote from: Kinkly on January 06, 2009, 08:52:12 PM
I agree with the part of something bigger but the gay comunity seem to have claimed this for themselves in the same way that GLBT groups are mostly GL only I have yet to find a genderqueer person in RL except me :(
I'm pretty sure "queer" is an open word. I find it hard to imagine a gay or lesbian will ever feel bothered when I call myself queer. The more people identify with a symbol, the more the symbol looses stigma. It's the total opposite of elite. Christians have used the same stradegy with "Jesus freak." It used to be an insult, but now (or least in the 90s) being a Jesus freak was a label of pride.
Do you know any androgynes in real life? I don't, but I know a half dozen genderqueer people.
in my search I've found groups of binary transexuals and crossdressers and one self proclaimed "pangendered woman" but she was a freak and got kicked out of the group for asking new members for sexual favers.
kinkly, i know a person IRL who identifies as androgynous genderqueer. he goes by both he and she with other people and refers to himself with gender neutral pronouns. he also has a beard. and wears womens clothing. :) hes really pretty too!
just the other day his facebook status was "im the cute girl in the corner with the beard"
I know a cute girl with a beard but she wouldn't be caught dead in a corner. :D
Quote from: Ephilei on December 27, 2008, 01:54:36 PM
I'm surprised to see the category androgyne used so prominently on these threads. I've never met someone who said they are androgynous tho I've met lots of genderqueers.
What's the difference? Is there a difference? I have my idea, but it sounds like people here use it more loosely.
I always thought "androgyne" indicated a sort of gender-neutral status, neither one nor the other, but either, or perceptible as either. Please feel free to correct me on this.
Anyway, I like "genderqueer" because it doesn't declare anything at all — only that my gender is queer, different, in some way, without specifying how.
:)
Quote from: Pneumonica on December 29, 2008, 03:49:23 AM
I've never heard the word "queer" used for positive connotation. Even when used by self-described "queers"
For me it's a positive term — and it doesn't just mean gay/lesbian anymore; it includes (potentially) anyone for whom vanilla heterosexuality doesn't apply, but again without saying how. I'm queer not gay.
But I might take offence if it's used in the wrong way, such as when preceded by "you f***ing..." >:(
Quote from: jenalex on January 11, 2009, 11:06:22 AM
Quote from: Ephilei on December 27, 2008, 01:54:36 PM
I'm surprised to see the category androgyne used so prominently on these threads. I've never met someone who said they are androgynous tho I've met lots of genderqueers.
What's the difference? Is there a difference? I have my idea, but it sounds like people here use it more loosely.
I always thought "androgyne" indicated a sort of gender-neutral status, neither one nor the other, but either, or perceptible as either. Please feel free to correct me on this.
Anyway, I like "genderqueer" because it doesn't declare anything at all — only that my gender is queer, different, in some way, without specifying how.
:)
Me too. But many times I don't look androgynous which is one reason androgyne doesn't fit me.
I have a beard and mostly wear women's clothing. I don't think anyone would call me cute or a girl, tho.
Quote from: Ephilei on January 11, 2009, 11:43:25 AM
Me too. But many times I don't look androgynous which is one reason androgyne doesn't fit me.
One can be an androgyne (internal sense of gender) without necessarily having an androgynous presentation (external expression of gender).
Z
You all run in different circles than I. I have met glt people, but no one has identified to me as either androgyne or genderqueer--nor has it come up in conversation.
Nor do I know what I am. People who know me, call me weird, but weird is not a category here.
People tell me: "Be good" or "Stay out of trouble", to which I reply I don't try to make trouble; it just comes naturally--like when I open my mouth. So carry on. You were probably doing better while my attention was consumed elsewhere.
S
it's you. your here ;D
Quote from: Pica Pica on January 11, 2009, 03:59:32 PM
it's you. your here ;D
Here is a relative term. I didn't see you this morning when I was clearing snow off my car this morning. A quick check indicates the temperature in London now, and for the coming week, is well above freezing. Not so for those of us in NEW England.
Nonetheless, I made it online today, and am flattered you noticed.
S
Quote from: Simone Louise on January 11, 2009, 04:18:29 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on January 11, 2009, 03:59:32 PM
it's you. your here ;D
Here is a relative term. I didn't see you this morning when I was clearing snow off my car this morning. A quick check indicates the temperature in London now, and for the coming week, is well above freezing. Not so for those of us in NEW England.
Nonetheless, I made it online today, and am flattered you noticed.
S
I noticed too. :)
Quote from: Nero on January 11, 2009, 04:22:49 PM
Quote from: Simone Louise on January 11, 2009, 04:18:29 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on January 11, 2009, 03:59:32 PM
it's you. your here ;D
Here is a relative term. I didn't see you this morning when I was clearing snow off my car this morning. A quick check indicates the temperature in London now, and for the coming week, is well above freezing. Not so for those of us in NEW England.
Nonetheless, I made it online today, and am flattered you noticed.
S
I noticed too. :)
I'm going offline now to take a shower.
S
Quote from: Simone Louise on January 11, 2009, 03:55:53 PM
You all run in different circles than I. I have met glt people, but no one has identified to me as either androgyne or genderqueer--nor has it come up in conversation.
Nor do I know what I am. People who know me, call me weird, but weird is not a category here.
People tell me: "Be good" or "Stay out of trouble", to which I reply I don't try to make trouble; it just comes naturally--like when I open my mouth. So carry on. You were probably doing better while my attention was consumed elsewhere.
S
That's the best kind of trouble, when you create it without even trying ;D
Z
Quote from: Zythyra on January 11, 2009, 12:20:34 PM
Quote from: Ephilei on January 11, 2009, 11:43:25 AM
Me too. But many times I don't look androgynous which is one reason androgyne doesn't fit me.
One can be an androgyne (internal sense of gender) without necessarily having an androgynous presentation (external expression of gender).
Z
Yes and no. No because "androgynous" is the adjective form of "androgyne," so regardless of the official meaning, people will have a conotation of androgynous. That conotation even pervades previous parts of this thread!
Quote from: Ephilei on January 11, 2009, 05:49:45 PM
Quote from: Zythyra on January 11, 2009, 12:20:34 PM
Quote from: Ephilei on January 11, 2009, 11:43:25 AM
Me too. But many times I don't look androgynous which is one reason androgyne doesn't fit me.
One can be an androgyne (internal sense of gender) without necessarily having an androgynous presentation (external expression of gender).
Z
Yes and no. No because "androgynous" is the adjective form of "androgyne," so regardless of the official meaning, people will have a conotation of androgynous. That conotation even pervades previous parts of this thread!
True enough. When I first heard the term androgyne, I wasn't sure whether to use it sonce my presentation isn't always androgynous (although not for lack of preference).
Z
When people began referring to me as androgynous, I didn't know what it meant at the time. I was too preoccupied by other things and didn't really think about it. But the term kept coming up from time to time. So I started to investigate. This lead to understanding human behavior better in general. I still have allot to learn. Funny how a particular term can influence a study and then one study leads to another.
Quote from: Ephilei on January 11, 2009, 05:49:45 PM
Yes and no. No because "androgynous" is the adjective form of "androgyne," so regardless of the official meaning, people will have a conotation of androgynous. That conotation even pervades previous parts of this thread!
Well, to be perfectly honest, 'androgyne' isn't in any standard dictionary, so I would say it is derived from the term 'androgynous'. I know that seems persnickety, but I do think it's important as far as understanding goes. One way to look at it is to say that a person who identifies as androgyne is psychologically androgynous. It has more to do with how you feel on the inside than what you look like or how you dress.
Androgyne is in my widget dictionary, states the origin as 16th century.
Z
Quote from: Zythyra on January 12, 2009, 07:28:17 PM
Androgyne is in my widget dictionary, states the origin as 16th century.
Z
then why does firefox keep underlining it? :laugh:
They'll do that!! :laugh:
Quote from: Jaimey on January 12, 2009, 07:32:02 PM
Quote from: Zythyra on January 12, 2009, 07:28:17 PM
Androgyne is in my widget dictionary, states the origin as 16th century.
Z
then why does firefox keep underlining it? :laugh:
Maybe it isn't in Firefox's dictionary?
I also notice underlines for the word transgender, which is annoying.
Z
I have a book of literary criticism called, 'the androgyne imagination', and uses the term as if it is expecting other literary critics to understand the term.
::) Yup they'll do that too :laugh: Don't you just love critics?