if he does. why would he bother? why would we bother? ;)
If God is God (all-everything), then He/She/It does.
There's no surprises for the everlasting gaze ;)
why would god test us, if he already knew what we would do? It wouldnt be called temptation if what we would do was just a concrete set future waiting to happen.
There is not any evidence of eternity. Rational reason works better than beliefs. The Greeks got that one. They thought if there was one god, it started the ball and left the rest to us.
There is no god , you silly girl
There are over six billion gods and goddesses, in my opinion, each in control of their own destiny.
And... here's something to think about... if you're destined to spend eternity somewhere, then where have you already spent eternity? Before you were here?
I believe in reincarnation, so I'll be back anyway. Next time I hope that I get to be a bio woman.
Janet
Here's how it's supposed to work:
we're supposed to make the choices, but he's psychic so he already knows what those choices will be. ;)
Here's how it is ;)
If God is God, then He is all-knowing
If God is God, then He is all-seeing
If God is God then His life span is or seems to us eternal
Out of this follows:
If God is God then Eternity's a fart joke to him and we inhabit the soundwaves of His Sinusoidal Laughter
Therefore:
If God is not God, then He is a demiurge and worthy of contempt.
or
If God is not God then He doesn't exist.
My response, as always, is what makes a "god" anyways? Why should any being, omnipotent or otherwise, be served like we're its slaves?
Sorry, no thank you.
This is a subject that my wife & I was discussing this past Saturday; just a little history on my back ground I went to seminary at Regent University in Virginia Beach (Pat Robertson's School). Now I tend to have an Evangelical point of view when it comes to religious matters. I've heard and studied the belief that God knows who will come to the revaluation of Jesus & those that will pick up their cross and follow Him. But I think that God sets life before each and every one of us and allows us to choose what we are going to do with that life. And we must deal with the circumstances of our chosen path through life; I do not think that our future is predetermined.
Quote from: ErickaM on December 30, 2008, 03:26:45 PM
This is a subject that my wife & I was discussing this past Saturday; just a little history on my back ground I went to seminary at Regent University in Virginia Beach (Pat Robertson's School). Now I tend to have an Evangelical point of view when it comes to religious matters. I've heard and studied the belief that God knows who will come to the revaluation of Jesus & those that will pick up their cross and follow Him. But I think that God sets life before each and every one of us and allows us to choose what we are going to do with that life. And we must deal with the circumstances of our chosen path through life; I do not think that our future is predetermined.
So God doesn't know our future?
Well its always been a very crux issue at the heart of Christianity - because in that religion there is just an extreme line between heaven and hell, and because its your choices that put you there. Its a pretty unique idea found only in Christianity by the way. So, if you behave badly (sin) you are knowingly going against god. If god is omniscient - and that's pretty central to the Judao/Christian conception of god - then if god knows your going to sin, and allows it to happen, then weather your going to hell, or heaven, is predestined.
You sin, because you always sin, you've always sinned. The moment is always just that way.
However, that's a real poor way to try to control and dictate people behavior (the end goal of all religions). You want people to work to do good (like giving to the church) and that is the notion of free will.
You can't have both. Though that is claim.
Of course the religious argue that though God is Omniscient god CHOOSES not to know. Which is right about where I lost my faith.
I don't think so 'cuz it tells us in the Gospels that many are called but few are chosen; if God knew our future then why is so many called? Also there is one thing that separates us from the rest of creation and that free will and if everything is laid out before our births then why did He give us free will?
Quote from: ErickaM on December 30, 2008, 04:41:20 PM
I don't think so 'cuz it tells us in the Gospels that many are called but few are chosen; if God knew our future then why is so many called? Also there is one thing that separates us from the rest of creation and that free will and if everything is laid out before our births then why did He give us free will?
But sweetie, isn't God by definition all-seeing and all knowing? That's sure what it seems like as far as I understand these passages:
QuoteActs 15:18 - Known to God are all his works from the beginning of the world. (Note the small "his" - that's a reference to us humans)
and
QuoteIsaiah 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.
My understanding from this is that God would indeed know what I was going to do before I do it, so really, my free will is an illusion.
Mina.
Can God make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?
Etc, etc, etc.
Faith doesn't operate on logical principles, so using logic to debate faith is pointless.
More to the point; I can't prove that God does NOT exist, therefore I'm unwilling to claim that he doesn't exist.
I'm 99% sure he doesn't, but that margin of error means that I'm not willing to make the absolute claim:
"God doesn't exist."
I challenge those that claim he does not exist to provide empirical evidence that he doesn't.
Quote from: ErickaM on December 30, 2008, 04:41:20 PM
I don't think so 'cuz it tells us in the Gospels that many are called but few are chosen; if God knew our future then why is so many called? Also there is one thing that separates us from the rest of creation and that free will and if everything is laid out before our births then why did He give us free will?
it's not that it's laid out per se. it's just that he of course already knows what choices people will make. he knows the future.
Does the author of a book know that a character will die before it happens?
That is, does an author exist in the same time line as the characters in a book?
Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 31, 2008, 03:21:24 AM
Does the author of a book know that a character will die before it happens?
That is, does an author exist in the same time line as the characters in a book?
lovely analogy, Alyssa. :icon_yes:
Quote from: ErickaM on December 30, 2008, 04:41:20 PM
I don't think so 'cuz it tells us in the Gospels that many are called but few are chosen; if God knew our future then why is so many called? Also there is one thing that separates us from the rest of creation and that free will and if everything is laid out before our births then why did He give us free will?
Well, the normal theology explanation of free will is that he knows but
does not make the choice for you. However, by definition God
has to know because if he didn't, we would have to introduce the notion that He is imperfect.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 31, 2008, 03:21:24 AM
Does the author of a book know that a character will die before it happens?
That is, does an author exist in the same time line as the characters in a book?
Lovely analogy indeed :)
To answer your question, sometimes yes and sometimes no. As a character grows in the mind of the author it starts to carry a certain number of logical parameters that will determine what would be natural for it to do in the context of the written work. However, this leaves out free will completely as the character cannot decide much about their life other than how to gesticulate in a conversation or be the kind of person that makes a certain kind of choice in a given situation the author wants to push through.
It follows from that analogy that we do not posess free will.
Quoteso really, my free will is an illusion
And God is not an illusion?
What evidence do you have that either is true.
Quote from: Katia on December 29, 2008, 02:12:05 PM
does "god" know, before we're born, where we'll spend eternity?
So, who said we would "spend eternity" anywhere? If we did that, it would mean we extend infinitely through time making
us god.
I've always wondered if god can kill hirself...
What happens when the unstopable force (God's smiting) meets the unmovable object (God's immortality)?
Quote from: Heartwood on December 31, 2008, 02:37:49 PM
I've always wondered if god can kill hirself...
It's a basic teaching of Christianity that that has already happened.
The question assumes God exists, so I will not argue that point. The theological concept the question is referring to is called "predestination." In particular, this variant would also be called double predestination, whereby some believe that God not only chooses some who are elect, but some who are damned. This is a quite extreme reading of the work of John Calvin, and I know of very few who hold to this rather untenable position in modern times. Specifically, if there is no free choice, then any judgment would be unjust. God, by definition, cannot be unjust. The flip side, however, is that God must also, by definition, be omniscient. So if there is something God does not know, then God is not God. So, in another sense, it is logical to presume that God knows all, even before it happens.
I am certainly not omniscient, and have little experience in this area. However, my own *personal* belief, is that there is no real discrepancy here. God created us with a capacity to do both good and bad. Just as with my own children, I want them to use this capacity for good. However, I know that it is sometimes not quite that way. Because I love them, I forgive them (though I admit I am sometimes not very good at this). We were not created to be robots. Rather, God created this world, giving humanity a certain sphere of freedom. Within that sphere, however, we do good and sometimes do bad. However, God's intentions towards us are clear. God desires that "no one should perish" (2 Peter 3:9). Towards that end, God created a way. And in the meantime, God continues to surround us with God's presence, and to lead us, should we care to follow. We are given freedom, but not left alone. This is the extremely simplified version of the basic teachings of the theologian Karl Barth, whom I find to be quite helpful.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
God / Jesus says:
We are created in the image of God. We have the choice to follow Gods love. We have always been and will always be. Even in the bible Satan never dies but is cast into eternity in hell or for a 1000 yrs. Jesus says those who can hear let them hear. Jesus says to hear from above to be able to understand God / his father. Jesus says we can only bring the riches of our hearts with us when we shed our shells / bodies and go to above.
I believe:
Life here on earth is but a dream of the true spiritual world from whence we came and to where we will return. Our time here on earth is but a drop in the bucket of our existence. Is your image of God in you the same as you envision God? I don't do religions created by man.
Quote from: Kristi on December 31, 2008, 05:06:54 PM
The question assumes God exists, so I will not argue that point. The theological concept the question is referring to is called "predestination." In particular, this variant would also be called double predestination, whereby some believe that God not only chooses some who are elect, but some who are damned.
Predestination is something completely different. The question is not whether God
chooses for us but whether He
knows what we will choose before we do and therefore where we will wait for judgment day.
Quote from: soldierjane on December 31, 2008, 05:38:22 PM
Predestination is something completely different. The question is not whether God chooses for us but whether He knows what we will choose before we do.
I disagree. It is impossible to speak of one without the other. Usually they are seen as two opposite ends of the spectrum. I see them as complimentary.
Peace,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on December 31, 2008, 05:41:08 PM
Quote from: soldierjane on December 31, 2008, 05:38:22 PM
Predestination is something completely different. The question is not whether God chooses for us but whether He knows what we will choose before we do.
I disagree. It is impossible to speak of one without the other. Usually they are seen as two opposite ends of the spectrum. I see them as complimentary.
Peace,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
How? Then there's no free will and knowing implies predestination? Or God should know but doesn't?
i would like to put in my 2 cents, but as a reluctant Taoist, i am not permitted to comment on this issue, or even think about it. :P
does anybody wanna talk about Ursula K. LeGuin?
-ell
Quote from: ell on December 31, 2008, 06:46:29 PM
i would like to put in my 2 cents, but as a reluctant Taoist, i am not permitted to comment on this issue, or even think about it. :P
does anybody wanna talk about Ursula K. LeGuin?
-ell
Lao Tzu (from whose writings Taoism came) wrote them down, and walked off into the wilderness never to be heard from again. Reverence for nature and ancestor spirits is common in popular Taoism.
Life here on earth is but a dream of the true spiritual world from whence we came and to where we will return
Quoteanybody wanna talk about Ursula K. LeGuin
As long as they are talking about imaginary things.
Quote from: Heartwood on December 31, 2008, 02:37:49 PM
I've always wondered if god can kill hirself...
What happens when the unstopable force (God's smiting) meets the unmovable object (God's immortality)?
I prefer more mundane versions of the Epimenides paradox, like: Does the set of all sets that don't contain themselves as an element contain itself as an element?
(Any such paradox arising means you must rethink your assumptions -- but the God version doens't mean God doesn't exist any more than the set theory version means set theory is wrong. It just means the system won't do what you're asking it to do.)
QuoteIt just means the system won't do what you're asking it to do
Unless you believe it does.
Yes, God knows, she certainly does, that I shall be a bright ornament on the galactic Christmas Tree for eternity.
Now if you think that is boring, consider that my light will never go out, I shall have a view of the entire Universe, and that I'll have plenty of bright company.
Quote from: Virginia87106 on December 31, 2008, 07:45:05 PM
Yes, God knows, she certainly does, that I shall be a bright ornament on the galactic Christmas Tree for eternity.
Now if you think that is boring, consider that my light will never go out, I shall have a view of the entire Universe, and that I'll have plenty of bright company.
If that stuff never happened would you still believe in God?
Some get 20 virgins for believing and look what they do.
Quote from: lisagurl on December 31, 2008, 08:36:04 AM
Quoteso really, my free will is an illusion
And God is not an illusion?
What evidence do you have that either is true.
I was simply accepting the premise of the question that "God" does exist in the form most of the West understands Him/Her/It to. I never said what I believed.
Anyways, from that position, of an all-seeing and all-knowing god existing, predestination logically follows. Not by itself, of course - I could attain Nirvana tomorrow and become all-seeing and knowing myself, which doesn't mean I'm also directing things, but God is the creator as well. Even assuming that (S)he no longer takes an active hand in creation, letting things run their course naturally, (S)he would have set every starting parameter knowing exactly how they would play out. That would include putting certain events in my life knowing how I would react to them. By including events in my life that (S)he knew would cause me to sin or perhaps turn from Christianity, God predestined me to a specific course. From that predestination it follows that free will does not exist.
An omniscient creator god precludes free will in its creations. The two are mutually exclusive.
Mina.
My own theory in htree parts.
I believe that no mater how many different ways anyone dices, or slices it these types of concepts about a God, god, goddess, or any type of omnipotent being or a single infinite intelligence the best we can come up with are a multitude of theories brought up by theologians and researchers into ancient religious scripts and other ancient cabalistic docments and other investigators of ancient reigious artifacts and legends.
Some complimenting each other and others contradicting each other. Many theories have been made about such a extraterestrial force or forces of one type omnipotent being or beings or another which govenrs all things in the universe, or creation. We to date have not yet even come up with a sufficiently sensitive enough scientific instrument to detect what is on the other side of this reality.
We may only maybe at best able to detect such phenomena by inference, like detecting some type of extraterrestrial energies interacting or affecting energies in this reality afecting them to act oddly or move in a different pattern then normal as compared to other energies of a similar consistency around it.
Could these energies be consistent to intelligent entities such as the ancient gods and goddesses of legend verses energy and mass and the quantum dimensions with no beginning and no end?
All things, animate and inanimate has spirit energy, auras, which are the life sustaining energy found within all living beings. Inanimate object also emit low frequency energy fields around them, energy fileds created by friction of molecular movement as well as the atomic and subatomic activety within these structures. Our entire mother earth is spirit energy, electromagnetic and gravitational energy. In that sense all is of the living spirit, the rocks, the earth, the plants, animals, water and all that resides within it, the air and all that resides in it. This was why when the ancient ones had used what they needed from the land they returned it to the land from where all is born all should be returned.
Heaven and Hell
I believe we create our own hells in what ever fashion one wishes to experience it and see it, we make our choice. The same can work the opposite way for reasonable peace and happiness here in the now.
The universe is a continuum, a **constant** which is shifting and changing form from mater to energy and back again.
The duality resides in our own minds.
The universe is in perfect balance one state of energy and mass balances the other. A star dies in a supernova the dust clouds created by the supernova are called Nebula gases and dust. the very elements that new stars are shaped in, or born from this dust and energy.
Some stars will implode and become massive black holes. Many of these black hole are found at the center of Galaxies which holds the galaxy together keeping it from drifting off into empty space. This is why you will see a galaxy with a very bright center in the middle. That bright center is the event horizon filled with super heated mass and energy under extreme pressure from the black holes extreme gravitational pull within the shell of event horison. This is why you see galaxies in a spiral or circular form.
The attraction of Massive black holes and repulsion of dark mater is what keeps the universe from flying apart to quickly. Well so much for my quick lesson in quantum and the unified theory of all physics.
But then are not the dualities of all things as proposed here in this reality being stretched to the limits of absurdity? A grand confusion by those whose only desire is, "what's in it for me?" Like the would be tin gods (leaders) that wish to be king poo, poo, on their little tin thrones on top of poo, poo hill would have us beleive?
Cindy
If God killed him/herself, that would be the absolute paradox, and not a very nice one.
Let us say that Einstein was correct when he said that before time, before void, there was only **thought** Thought was made into mater and energy through the ether of creation. This would mean that void would have to have been **thought of** before it could be conceived. And matter and energy could not exist without void= **time and space** Take away thought, what's left? Interesting topic now I can only hope it doesn't die just because I showed up in cowboy boots. ;D
Cindy
I think we each have our own view of God or not of God and that is a personal thing whereas another can not alter it because we each have our own experience that brings us to our beliefs or lack of beliefs. All one can do is share what they feel and if what they say speaks to another then so be it.
Amen to that. No two person's perceive the same concept exactly the same but it can be fun to play around with the pieces and see what kind of picture we end up with in the end. When ever that's going to be. I guess not until the human race has awakened to full consciousness.
Cindy
QuoteI was simply accepting the premise of the question that "God" does exist in the form most of the West understands Him/Her/It to
I doubt you could get most of the west to agree on that. Now if you used the word "may" instead of does many more would agree.
Quote from: lisagurl on January 01, 2009, 10:01:40 AM
QuoteI was simply accepting the premise of the question that "God" does exist in the form most of the West understands Him/Her/It to
I doubt you could get most of the west to agree on that. Now if you used the word "may" instead of does many more would agree.
The question presupposed that existence through the use of "Does god ... ". As to universality of the "idea of god" in the west, I know there are a fair number of atheists and pagans and heathens and buddhists and ... and ... lots of others, but the West was culturally shaped by a distinctly Judeo-Christian paradigm for almost 2000 years. God as understood within that paradigm still features very much in our psyches, even if not in our beliefs. As an example, I recently had a ... heated discussion with a Heathen with strong views against transgendered people. The kicker was that the guy worships Loki, who regularly cross-dressed, changed sex, etc. Eventually it came back to him being raised Catholic and still carrying that paradigm of moral and ethical values around in his head, despite having rejected the religion years ago.
Mina.
Quote from: cindybc on January 01, 2009, 07:12:20 AMLet us say that Einstein was correct when he said that before time, before void, there was only **thought**
I thought that was St. John who said that. Except he wrote in Greek, and used "Logos" instead of "Thought."
Well it could have been full of energy instead of thought. Though I prefer to think it was filled only with possibility.
And if everyone has their own god, then its subjective, and not objective, which means its a matter of taste and not of truth.
QuoteWell it could have been full of energy instead of thought. Though I prefer to think it was filled only with possibility.
Hi Tekla, what you have shared with us reminded me of this short narrative I had documented in my Microsoft Word.
Spirit as Consciousness
By consciousness we mean our level of perception about ourselves and the world around us. The higher the perception, the greater the consciousness. Those who have had the spiritual experience have noted that their state of awareness, i.e. their consciousness, has been elevated beyond the norm, enabling that person to experience existence from a whole new perspective.
Oneness
One of the most common experiences of this spiritual consciousness is feeling of "oneness." Oneness is often experienced as a feeling that everything is part of a whole, or that we all from one common source and share a common spirit. Let's then consider some ways that the spiritual beholder might experiences oneness.
To our ordinary perceptions, the world is a mass of individual life forms each seeking its own destiny. Behind this appearance is the essential nature of existence, the One Divine consciousness. This consciousness expresses itself in the universe in many forms, each with its own will to be. But in fact each form is an expression of the One seeking its infinite joy of existence. All true spiritual realization begins with this new perception of the essential Oneness of all beings and things.
The spiritual experience of Oneness often expresses by the feeling or understanding that we are of one essence or spirit. We experience that the same soul force that we feel in ourselves is there in each person we encounter.
Oneness = All in consciousness experiencing the Oneness of all, or Oneness experiencing all that is in consciousness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmKCCPgix9Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmKCCPgix9Q)
Cindy
Another short entry I found saved in my Microsoft Word, years ago in another time in a different body with very much different perceptions on life.
Dreamer or the Dream.
Does the dreamer experience the dream or does the dream experience the dreamer?
Does the light come over the horizon or does the horizon move under the light?
The sun continues to shine whether you see it or not.
Are you on this side of the wall, or are you on the other side of the wall?
How do you really know if you are here? Where is here?
Yesterday is a past illusion and tomorrow is a vision that does not yet exist.
Is yesterday today and tomorrow a product of the dream or the dreamer?
You are at this very second at the heart beat of eternity.
Cindy