I'm just gonna do a little monologue here.. You can skip it if you want to the questions at the end cause I'm curious about everyone's thoughts...
Someone asked me today, if I just have some kind of mental illness causing my feelings.. Because I had known him before I realized I was trans.. I guess coming out just seemed sort of abrupt to him..
I can't dismiss the possibility that it's somehow a mental illness and that my brain went wrong, and my body was on the right track, by developing as female. After all they supposedly found the gene causing mtf TSism, that makes mtf's brain less sensitive to androgens in the womb... But of course theres a whole lot of other possibilities of causes and it doesn't really matter what's right or wrong etc etc etc
Well anyways, I have really bad emotional problems and my parents have taken me to shrinks so many times for completely unrelated (?) issues.. and I spend most of my days isolating myself from everyone and you know people go crazy by doin that..
Another thing that gives me doubts.. I didn't 'realize' my transness until I was 17.. Then after that the feelings of hating my body and female role got worse and worse. Before, I was fine with feminine pronouns. i was OK (or indifferent) with being known as a girl. I was OK with my body ..sort of... But then I look back on all that with all my memories of passing off as a boy as a kid, doing boy things, wanting boy friends, not wanting to be naked or be involved in sex of any kind, being horrified and nauseated by things going inside my naughty bits, thinking being female was a curse...
..I dunno it just clicked, the memories make sense now. but this whole thing is just unreal. What if I am just psychotic or this is some kind of disorder that started at 17, after my depressive breakdown?
What if this is just some obsession or phase? But searching through these feelings and memories I've had, validate myself in my mind.. but what if none of this is real and just a delusion?
And why can't I just be comfortable in my own skin?
Why does changing my outside have to matter? Why do I care so much?? Why do we care? If I take T, have surgeries, I'm still gonna be female. What if I really am? What if my brain really is female, and I was supposed to be? And I'm just some weirdo who's mutilating their body who just can't accept things as they are? The sky is blue and the grass is green so why do I wanna change it? Cause I think blue sky and green grass are ugly in my world??
Why can't I accept my female role and body and just try to force myself to do all the things women do and just deal with it?
I've decided to transition in the past few months but today I'm just having a lot of doubts. I feel so easily affected by these types of comments from people.. What if I can't function as a man? I can't now. What if I'll never make new friends? Lovers? Reconnect with my family? Find a job? What if I screw this all up even more by transitioning and end up killing myself anyways?....
But what do I have to lose.. I've already started dressing completely male, and readying myself for transition. What if I change my mind? But the feelings are just so intense..
I just wish it were simpler, that I were a normal person.. who puts everything including gender in a nice neat box. Who doesn't have to question their gender or sanity or how they'll get along in the world..
So I'd like your thoughts on whether TS and gender dysphoria could be or is caused by mental illness.. as well as whether it's our mind or body that's wrong?
Well, if I'm mentally ill, I have been since I was 2 1/2. It seems to me that, while not definitive, there is enough evidence to indicate that gender dysphoria is an in-born trait, or at least a congenital birth defect. Now, that's not to say that some people don't have gender issues that have nothing to do with physiology. The human psyche is complex, and subject to as many variations as there are people. But, I think the vast majority of TSs are simply wired differently.
I totally hear you, when it comes to doubts, though. All the "what ifs" can be crippling.
if there is a magical bill that can transform my brain let me know about it. i would be ready to take it.
no one would go through the pain of changing their body and potentially loose family job ect..... if they can cure their mind.
There are some very good points and questions brought up here. Questions that many struggle with from time to time:
Why do I feel this way?
Where and how will I fit in?
What's wrong with me?
What's wrong with them?
Why do I feel like an actor when I carry out my "expected role" to appease others in society?
SELF ACCEPTANCE can be the most difficult hurdle for a person to deal with.
Stand proud and be who you are
And no, I don't think your mental. Your dealing with some very common difficulties that many experience.
Personally, I don't care if it is a mental disorder.
I consider this all empirically: Look at before and after pictures of anybody who transitioned.
They are much happier afterwards.
They've tried enough times "fixing" people with all sorts of therapy.
Only transition with hormones and surgery works.
Yeah, but do you see the why it is important to help someone who is going through the question and self acceptance thing? We loose too many wonderful people
Theres a difference between a neurological condition, and mental illness... many dont diferentiate... 'its brain stuff'.
Tbh if m2f has been found... then f2m must exist. Both are too common to be mental illness... too common and similar in symptoms and feelings... and if transition cures it, mental illness or neurological factor, who cares? its cured if its cured.
Quote from: northy on January 17, 2009, 09:51:57 PM
..I dunno it just clicked, the memories make sense now. but this whole thing is just unreal. What if I am just psychotic or this is some kind of disorder that started at 17, after my depressive breakdown?
What if this is just some obsession or phase? But searching through these feelings and memories I've had, validate myself in my mind.. but what if none of this is real and just a delusion?
And why can't I just be comfortable in my own skin?
Why does changing my outside have to matter? Why do I care so much?? Why do we care? If I take T, have surgeries, I'm still gonna be female. What if I really am? What if my brain really is female, and I was supposed to be? And I'm just some weirdo who's mutilating their body who just can't accept things as they are? The sky is blue and the grass is green so why do I wanna change it? Cause I think blue sky and green grass are ugly in my world??
Why can't I accept my female role and body and just try to force myself to do all the things women do and just deal with it?
I've decided to transition in the past few months but today I'm just having a lot of doubts. I feel so easily affected by these types of comments from people.. What if I can't function as a man? I can't now. What if I'll never make new friends? Lovers? Reconnect with my family? Find a job? What if I screw this all up even more by transitioning and end up killing myself anyways?....
But what do I have to lose.. I've already started dressing completely male, and readying myself for transition. What if I change my mind? But the feelings are just so intense..
I just wish it were simpler, that I were a normal person.. who puts everything including gender in a nice neat box. Who doesn't have to question their gender or sanity or how they'll get along in the world..
So I'd like your thoughts on whether TS and gender dysphoria could be or is caused by mental illness.. as well as whether it's our mind or body that's wrong?
Northy:
I think that if you check around here you'll find that there are a lot of us that have asked those very same questions!
Are you depressed because you are trans? Or are you trans because you are depressed? Does it matter?
Also a mental illness isn't a bad thing. It is used to describe the symptoms and condition a person may be suffering trying to deal with their life. And, yes, GID is considered a mental illness. But it is not considered to be in the same class as a psychosis or personally/socially harmful condition.
Each one of us have to grapple with the question "Why can't I just be comfortable in my own skin?" "Am I weird or what?"
Unfortunately, being transsexual is something that there is no test for (at least not while you are alive). You are transsexual, because you say you are. So having doubts is very understandable. Even those of us who have completely transitioned to their chosen gender sometimes question whether or not it was the right thing. I do sometime, though I have never regretted my decision.
If you take testosterone, have the surgeries, your body will still be genetically female, that is true. But where does masculinity truly reside? Is it between your legs, or between your ears?
Many who consider themselves to be transsexual, feel that having this condition is a terminal illness. Sooner or later the distress of being unable to reconcile our physical body with our mental feelings becomes so distressing that depression becomes clinical and can easily give way to suicidal thoughts and actions.
And the only known cure is to transition physically and socially, as much as possible, to the gender that we KNOW ourselves to be.
It is not an easy path. And yes, all the fears that you have mentioned, and maybe more, you will have to face. This is the most daunting and challenging thing a human being can do. It changes the most fundamental aspects of every part of our life. It will not only challenge you, but those around you, your family, friends and co-workers.
We do not follow this path because of some trivial need of gratification. We follow this path because we can to nothing else.
But I will tell you that if you do decide to pursue this. You find that once you do transition, life will become a thing of color and beauty. For the first time you will experience a feeling you never knew, normalcy. For many of us, feeling normal is something we never get to feel until we transition. And what a wonderful feeling it is!
You have come to the right place to talk about this. Many brothers and sisters have made this journey and can understand exactly what you are going through. You are not alone. You are loved.
Welcome, my brother! You are among friends.
-Sandy
There is no doubt that the brain is a wondrous thing, and i guess is one of the most complex organs to try and deal with. It is no secret that the medical community has battled with this question for many years and i don't think that there is any hope of a definitive diagnosis any time soon.
This is probably to simplified but... To me this thing that makes me who i am is brain related and since this is apparently not normal, then one must conclude that it is my brain that has caused me to be this way. Am i ill? Of course not, i'm perfectly healthy, apart for a few aches and pains etc. My brain seems to be functioning quite well in every way. That leaves my thought process.
So is my mind out of whack? Apparently not, one only has to read articles on the mind to quickly discover that it seems to be even more complex than the brain itself ( see Wikipedia Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mind).) The way i see it, my brain processes my thoughts from my perceptions and stores the result as my mind. So if the way i see myself/perceive myself does not match the norm then i would assume that it is "Dis-ordered."
Sigh! But then what do i know :)
steph
Peace, friend. Calm down.
I'm a psychiatrist, and have obsessively considered all the various arguments and data, and concluded that I don't know. A recent APA(Psychological) task force concluded the same thing.
That having been said, there is a right thing for you to do now. Pursue a course of less misery, more happiness. Anything less is life is a waste. (Goddess knows I have wasted enough time and energy!) Be kind to yourself. Acknowledge your needs and feelings as real, worthy of respect. If you want to transition, do so. Prepare. You'll be more yourself, happier, more productive and creative.
So what if maybe it will change. It is doubtful that it will, but if it does, then it is right at that time. things change sometimes. OK. That's the way life is. But it doesn't take away from the right to pursue happiness now, according to our best lights.
Believe in yourself.
Namaste, Lunae
Quote from: Lunae on January 18, 2009, 07:54:32 AM
Peace, friend. Calm down.
I'm a psychiatrist, and have obsessively considered all the various arguments and data, and concluded that I don't know. A recent APA(Psychological) task force concluded the same thing.
That having been said, there is a right thing for you to do now. Pursue a course of less misery, more happiness. Anything less is life is a waste. (Goddess knows I have wasted enough time and energy!) Be kind to yourself. Acknowledge your needs and feelings as real, worthy of respect. If you want to transition, do so. Prepare. You'll be more yourself, happier, more productive and creative.
So what if maybe it will change. It is doubtful that it will, but if it does, then it is right at that time. things change sometimes. OK. That's the way life is. But it doesn't take away from the right to pursue happiness now, according to our best lights.
Believe in yourself.
Namaste, Lunae
It would be really good if you could post the reference, and the results of this "recent APA(Psychological) task force", it would be good reading for the members and would probably make an excellent article for our Wiki.
steph
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/transgender/2008TaskForceReport.pdf (http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/transgender/2008TaskForceReport.pdf)
Related to the DSMV?
There's a good chance that you were "okay" with being a girl becuase you didn't realize there were other options. You probably spent most of your life assuming that gender=sex because that is what everybody is taught. Similar problems abound among the LGB. They have been taught that falling in love happens between a boy and a girl, so when they have a crush on someone of the opposite sex or find them attractive, they do not recognize their feelings as such.
Quote from: Mr. Fox on January 18, 2009, 10:57:28 AM
There's a good chance that you were "okay" with being a girl becuase you didn't realize there were other options. You probably spent most of your life assuming that gender=sex because that is what everybody is taught. Similar problems abound among the LGB. They have been taught that falling in love happens between a boy and a girl, so when they have a crush on someone of the opposite sex or find them attractive, they do not recognize their feelings as such.
Humans have a knack for coping with oppressive situations by persuading themselves that it isn't all that bad. Especially when there's no escape in sight and it seems like that's all there'll ever be. I think this is how tyrants have been able to keep populations subjected for ages and ages. By psychologically getting them to believe there's no alternative. Ideologies that preach submissiveness to power are used to indoctrinate the masses to have no thought of rising up and overthrowing the oppression.
In history, one analogy reminds me strongly of my gender experience: In 1989, all over Eastern Europe, one Communist government after another fell to popular uprisings. The Iron Curtain disappeared, the Berlin Wall came down, and not much later even the Soviet Union dissolved. It all took place so quickly. All the Communist governments in Eastern Europe fell within the space of a few months (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1989).
In December 1989 as the masses in Romania were rising up to overthrow the dictator Ceauşescu, I heard political commentators on
All Things Considered analyzing the situation this way: As long as people are completely kept under tight control, they acquiesce to their oppression, thinking there's nothing to be done about it. But once they start to get a taste of freedom--they will struggle hard to get more and more freedom. They then feel that continued oppression is unbearable and they refuse to submit to it any more.
That was precisely how my gender went. I'd been brought up to believe that there was nothing I could do about being male, no matter how much I hated it, so I just had to grin and bear it. But once there appeared a chink in the Berlin Wall of my gender, I quickly set about breaking it down, demolished it, and escaped to the other side. And no power on earth could hold me back. To my family it looked so sudden they were dumbfounded. But that's how oppression fell in Eastern Europe, and that's how it fell for me.
I think this is very true. Right before x-mas I saw a friend of a friend for the first time in a year and she was just amazed. She just could not get over how happy I looked, how the stress and anger along with the despair had just vanished. I am happier now then ever before in my life even with out a job. (a job would be nice) :angel:
Quote from: Renate on January 18, 2009, 05:51:27 AM
Look at before and after pictures of anybody who transitioned.
They are much happier afterwards.
Quote from: Lunae on January 18, 2009, 08:24:42 AM
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/transgender/2008TaskForceReport.pdf (http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/transgender/2008TaskForceReport.pdf)
Thank's for the link Lunae. The article itself is too big for the our Wiki but the link will be added in the appropriate place.
Done. Link has been added to our Wiki under
Gender Identity (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Gender_identity) in the external links section.
steph
Re: What if we're mentally ill?
more importantly, what if we're not? ;)
Quote from: Nero on January 18, 2009, 02:45:09 PM
Re: What if we're mentally ill?
more importantly, what if we're not? ;)
Very profound Nero.....
... does this mean that everyone in the world might actually be transgendered, but only a few of us come to recognise it....Could expalin a lot..? ::)
Thanks everyone for the kind words :)
I guess I just think way too much about why stuff happens, and get all worked up, instead of just dealing with what I've got. I know what I wanna do - transition - but then I ask all of these silly questions and listen to other people's suggestions, and ignorance and transphobia...
I'm still gonna do it though. even if I won't be any happier, even if I am actually a raving lunatic, I know this is what I need to do to save myself, and to lead the life I wanna live. I just wish it wasn't such a big deal to everyone.
QuoteRe: what if we're mentally ill?
We?
"we" is just waaaayy too many people!
tink :icon_chick:
Mental illness (disorder) is defined by the four D's: Deviant, Distressing, Dysfunctional, and Dangerous. A mental illness is some behavior that deviates from 'normal,' whatever that is, causes distress to the person with the disorder, hampers their ability to function in life, and poses some danger to themselves or those around them. Gender issues may deviate from the norm and cause distress, but it does not cause dysfunction or present a danger to anyone. Therefore it is not a mental disorder.
For a transsexual, the body is in good working order. The mind is in good working order too. It is not a disease at all.
The only problem is the mismatch between the two. Remember what it was like when you were little, and by mistake put your right shoe on your left foot, and your left shoe on your right foot? Felt kind of weird to try walking that way, didn't it? If you walked like that for a long time, it would hurt your feet. We just have our whole lives on the wrong way around, that's all.
Quote from: Chrissty on January 18, 2009, 03:10:38 PM
... does this mean that everyone in the world might actually be transgendered, but only a few of us come to recognise it....Could expalin a lot..? ::)
there's black, there's white, and millions of shades in-between. I think the gender spectrum might run something like:
Extremely female, very female, female, somewhat female, maybe female, maybe male, somewhat male, male, very male, extremely male.......and millions of gradations between. You get the idea.
Who made the rule that there are male, female, androgyne, only?
Why are there so many shades of yellow in the same species of flower? Life diversifies, like a well-run business. It's the best solution to survival. There is diversity, or random mutation running things everywhere you look.
Enjoy whatever shade you are....
Bev
Mental illness (disorder) is defined by the four D's: Deviant, Distressing, Dysfunctional, and Dangerous
You forgot one D, the one Starbuck pointed out, the DSM. If your in it, you have a psychological problem according to the psychological profession, simple as that.
This APA is the American Psychological Association. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is researched, compiled and published by the American Psychiatric Association.
I stand corrected. But what I said still stands.
whether trans people are or aren't mentally ill, someone will certainly think you are, at some point along the way, and will do their damnedest to make you "feel" like you are.
i can pretty much guarantee you that such people do *not* have your best interest in mind.
therefore, ignore them!
if everyone were required to spill out endless explanations for their actions, the way trans people so often do, they too would have much weirdness to account for, trust me on that.
but see, they don't wanna talk about their own weirdness, they wanna focus on *your* weirdness, to make themselves feel better in their own sorry little excuses for lives.
i'm sorry, but i could care less what they think.
-ell
Quote from: Nichole on January 18, 2009, 10:51:42 PM
This APA is the American Psychological Association. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is researched, compiled and published by the American Psychiatric Association.
Fair cop... how was i meant to know that! :D
Bev: who said that androgyne was a socially accepted sex now? its the same case tbh...
As for this lot, didnt someone mention some gene? If it has a genetic cause, or some form of gentic switch, its not a 'mental illness' as to date, nobody has been born mentally ill.. disabled yes, brain damaged yes...
But as able bodied, sane people, i _I_ feel im anything but mentally ill... My uncle is classically mentally ill if there is such thing... Hes scytsophrenic (sp), he sees blue electricity, and has major problems living... That fits the 4 Ds tekla mentioned quite amiably...
Im perfectly functional. Deviant? Accuse every other woman on the planet of that too and watch the response... Destressing? to me, yes, to others, no... But not now its fixed largely... Dangerous? Oh i aspire to it...
One of the 4 does not a madwoman make...
"what if we're not mentally ill?"
Yes!!! That's it!!
We live as though we have a right to. We love. We work. We meet others on our own terms. We believe in ourselves.
Seems like a great plan!
Namaste, Lunae
We were born....
We have a right to live and work REGARDLESS of who we are. Life is a right they cant take yet ;)
Would it be better if ''we'' were only sinners for example?
I used 'we' as in all humans....
wait, trans people are sinners now?
According to Christianity all people are sinners. But religious fanatics classify transpeople as sinners with big S. Witches were partially just gender-variant people I guess. Those who were burnt alive.
I'm A sinner in some folks opinion. But actually I do my best to be honest and considerate towards others. Although I do like to kid about a bit from time to time. Even then I'll Usually tell folks that I'm kidding
Um, witches have what to do with transgender?
As for christian fanatics.... i say let he who is without sin, cast the first stone... a christian saying no? Nobody has the right to persecute another human, so by thier own definition, they sin also.
God loves everyone, of every faith equally. No more than others, no less than others. Whoever/whatever you are, human, animal, vegetable or mineral... hes everyones god...
its point in a discussion on the relative yeys or neys of trans being mental illness is confusing at best, sin is nothing to do with this, unless someone suggests mental illness is punishment for sin.. in which case ill go Jew-jitsu on thier asses...
I'm a carrot and I'm taking off on my broomstick to bomb the sinners against carrots :laugh: >:-) :laugh:
Owo... stop that Monty Python stuff....Silly Virginia
I can't help it. I love the kick starter on my broom stick :laugh: >:-) :laugh:
Oh darn, I'm not a carrot. I'm a peach. I guess I'll have to saddle up and go bomb the sinners against peaches
I rather think I was mentally ill before coming to terms with being female trapped in the wrong body. At least in terms of symptoms. The acceptance and realisation of who I am was the cure for that particular ailment.
Now my mental state has never been better, and the focus has shifted to a physical condition, one which I already know how to resolve.
Quote from: Starbuck on January 19, 2009, 05:22:00 AM
Quote from: Nichole on January 18, 2009, 10:51:42 PM
This APA is the American Psychological Association. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is researched, compiled and published by the American Psychiatric Association.
Fair cop... how was i meant to know that! :D
...
... Dangerous? Oh i aspire to it...
One of the 4 does not a madwoman make...
1) In order, my dear. You weren't supposed to know that. Lots of people don't which is why I made the distinction. When you have two APAs that deal with substantially the same thing :) well, lots of folks confuse the two. :)
2) O, sweetie, not only do you aspire, sometimes you absolutely reach that place!! >:-)
3) Again, right, you need the royal flush! :)
Quote from: Starbuck on January 19, 2009, 07:18:36 AM
Um, witches have what to do with transgender?
Well, when one is both I suppose we have one or two small intersections with it, no? >:-)
And what followed that was excellently said. :icon_hug:
Nichole
BOWEEP BOWEEP!!!!
**cue computer voice**
Warning!! Thread Drift!!! THREAD DRIFT!!
Invoke immediate course correction to avoid "Six degrees of separation of Kevin Bacon" and Elvis conspiracies discussion!!!
-S.A.N.D.I.
Quote from: Starbuck on January 19, 2009, 07:18:36 AM
Um, witches have what to do with transgender?
The Wiccan Mysteries of Gender (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usaz&c=gay&id=3780)
QuoteI had traveled far enough on my path to find myself thinking about a rite of passage. In Wiccan traditions, and many other religious paths for that matter, rites of passage are typically performed for all major life events -- birth, puberty, marriage, and death, among others. In my life, gender transition is much like both birth and death -- or death and rebirth, as the case may be. So I began searching for any existing rituals on the internet, in books, and in other covens. There was nothing to be found; no rituals even close to commemorate as major a change as gender transition. The closest I found was the puberty rite for girls. But these spoke of the women's mysteries for the most part, and as I mentioned, those really don't apply to me.
I spoke to my High Priestess, and expressed my interest in performing such a ritual. Originally, I had been undecided in whether I wanted to perform this as a solitary ritual, or with the coven. Since we both pretty much saw this as an entrance into the community of women, we decided it should be a 'community' event -- so the coven would be involved.
...
In any event, the ritual was created, by the High Priestess, the other women who joined in the ritual, and myself, each contributing a part to make a functional whole. Perhaps there was my definition -- each gender is made of many parts, each part contributing to the whole. The parts may overlap between genders, suggesting a gender continuum as opposed to a polarity, but combined with the individual's internal sense of who they are, makes up what we are in respect to gender. Another mystery revealed...
My Journey from a Catholic to a Wiccan (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=uspa&c=gay&id=10880)
QuoteThrough Wicca I have finally been able to begin the process of healing myself. Thirteen years spent hating GLTB people can't be rectified easily, I suppose. But I'm getting there. Each day I feel better about myself. Each day it's easier and easier for me to fully believe that the God and Goddess love me. Each day a little bit of that self-hatred melts away. And as for being transgender, becoming Wicca saved me from going through the painful times I went through when I realized I was bisexual. Through Wicca I have come to see my transsexuality as a gift from the God and Goddess. Before, I saw it as a freakish mistake and curse. Wicca has turned my life around. It gave me hope for the future and a way to live in the present.
Gender and sexuality in Heathenry (http://pagantheologies.pbwiki.com/Gender+and+Sexuality+in+Contemporary+Paganisms+-+part+2)
QuoteIt includes a form of magic known as seiðr, which was originally largely practised by women, though also by ergi men. Men regarded it as "women's magic" - cunning and underhand. This was the Norse term for a passive partner in homosexual sex. Seiðr has been enthusiastically researched and revived by Heathen women, and by some gay men. Heterosexual heathen men are starting to become interested in becoming seiðr-workers (Blain, 2001). There is also a certain amount of gender-bending in Norse myth. When Oðinn was initiated by the goddess Freyja into Seiðr, he became more transgendered. Loki transformed himself into a mare, and Thor disguised himself as a giantess.
Conclusion
In general, Pagans are very accepting of variation in gender and sexuality, and are very willing to challenge received societal norms on this and many other issues. There is also strong evidence that ancient paganisms tolerated a variety of gender and sexual roles, and a lot of Pagan mythology reflects this. Although there has been some difficulty in Wicca with adapting the rituals to be more inclusive, this has by and large been achieved, with new versions of traditional forms of words being introduced.
I myself wrote an essay titled "Trans Witch" about the interrelationship of transsexualism and Witchcraft, for publication in an anthology my friend is editing about transgender in Paganism. It hasn't been published yet, though I can quote from what I wrote, if you like.
QuoteTranssexualism and Witchcraft came together as such closely related developments in my life, they form two aspects of a single transformation. Each is an elaboration of the other. Discovering myself to be transsexual, I began cross-gender expression that sometimes became difficult, even caused me stress and grief in relation to the world. At the same time, I chose Witchcraft as a connection to the Goddess and as a means to empower my own energy, strengthen me, and provide means allowing me to function as trans in the world. ... I needed Witchcraft in order for me to take charge of my life with conscious intent. At the same time, in mutual synergy, the shifts in consciousness produced by transsexual experience provided a remarkable source of power for my Craft.
Post Merge: January 19, 2009, 04:09:41 PM
Quote from: Leiandra on January 19, 2009, 07:37:22 AM
I rather think I was mentally ill before coming to terms with being female trapped in the wrong body. At least in terms of symptoms. The acceptance and realisation of who I am was the cure for that particular ailment.
Now my mental state has never been better, and the focus has shifted to a physical condition, one which I already know how to resolve.
This states it perfectly! Great post!
I disagree Hypatia... wican is all well and good... but i think theres a point where 'trans people talking about being trans and wican' doesnt mean 'wican AND trans are related' as the original post on this subject suggested...
the first quote summed it up....
apart from a puberty right for girls, theres no wican relation to gender transition...
Nichole -- okay, I'm scratching my head trying to see the relevance of the distinction between the APA and the other APA. ???
Starbuck -- you seemed to say T.S. isn't rare enough to be a "mental illness" -- but what about depression?
But the point is, who cares? As Tekla suggested, "mental illness" is just a label. It doesn't say anything about what you should do about it.
~Alyssa
not rare, but the symptoms of GID are all too similar... consistant, and the cure is the same for it nomatter what... being yourself. Depression has many causes, cures, and varying sypmtoms...
Its treatable with surgery, and medication. all these things lean it much more towards a medical condition than a mental one... mental conditions can be cured, and the paitent may go along with their life as it was... how many trans people get it 'cured' and carry on as before?
Quote from: Starbuck on January 19, 2009, 06:45:39 PMtheres no wican relation to gender transition...
There isn't for you... but there is for me. I found self-transformation to be powerful magick.
/me hides under a sheild generator
ah yes. the relief that some get from HRT and going full time is much more powerful for some than others.
Quote from: SomeMTF on January 19, 2009, 06:41:38 AM
Would it be better if ''we'' were only sinners for example?
No. Ill people are cured. Simmers are damned. I don't see that as better.
The difference, Alyssa, is that they are two separate and distinct organizations with different goals although with an overlapping, to some degree, membership.
DSMs are the world of the psychiatric association and something you and everyone else should be aware of is that psychiatrists and Clinical Psychologists can legally write prescriptions, along with APNs. Why does that matter, say thee? Because the incestuous relationship between diagnosis and it's definitions as placed into DSM, decisions about what stays in, is added or goes and how treatment is viewed is very often quite intimately involved with making a new diagnosis that (here's the real surprise) that just happens to dovetail with the approval of a new drug one of the effects of which is to treat exactly the symptoms of the new disorder!!
Those who prescribe get preferential treament from pharmaceutical companies. As do those who make the 'bible" of the trade that uses the meds produced by said firms.
The other APA doesn't get those perks. I suspect that's one of the reasons you saw the call by the Psychological APA this past summer to change the way transfolk were dealt with. While there's some whispers right now that the Shrink-wrap APA may attempt to further pathologize us all by formalizing the Blanchard dichotomy. That would be the Blanchard who's on the committee that will be handling sexual disorders.
Nichole
Thanks for clarifying, Starbuck and Nichole.
:)
~Alyssa
Quote from: Lisbeth on January 19, 2009, 07:24:39 PM
Quote from: SomeMTF on January 19, 2009, 06:41:38 AM
Would it be better if ''we'' were only sinners for example?
No. Ill people are cured. Simmers are damned. I don't see that as better.
I do feel a bit evil when I turn the stove to the simmer setting >:-)
Quote from: Virginia Marie on January 19, 2009, 11:44:19 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on January 19, 2009, 07:24:39 PM
Quote from: SomeMTF on January 19, 2009, 06:41:38 AM
Would it be better if ''we'' were only sinners for example?
No. Ill people are cured. Simmers are damned. I don't see that as better.
I do feel a bit evil when I turn the stove to the simmer setting >:-)
O, I thought she was talking about damning shoes and just omitted the "k" -- ya know skimmers!! >:-)
Quote from: Nichole on January 19, 2009, 11:53:04 PM
Quote from: Virginia Marie on January 19, 2009, 11:44:19 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on January 19, 2009, 07:24:39 PM
Quote from: SomeMTF on January 19, 2009, 06:41:38 AM
Would it be better if ''we'' were only sinners for example?
No. Ill people are cured. Simmers are damned. I don't see that as better.
I do feel a bit evil when I turn the stove to the simmer setting >:-)
O, I thought she was talking about damning shoes and just omitted the "k" -- ya know skimmers!! >:-)
Hmmmm, maybe they didn't have her size in stock :laugh: >:-) :laugh:
In the U.K psychiatrists play heavy on the mentally ill tag. Far more than in the U.S or our European counterparts. It puts up a lot of barriers especially within the U.K NHS where people are sent to a Mental Health Clinic like 'West London Mental Health' and tarnished with that mental health analogy. It's wrong and it sucks.
Quote from: Nichole on January 19, 2009, 11:53:04 PM
Quote from: Virginia Marie on January 19, 2009, 11:44:19 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on January 19, 2009, 07:24:39 PM
Quote from: SomeMTF on January 19, 2009, 06:41:38 AM
Would it be better if ''we'' were only sinners for example?
No. Ill people are cured. Simmers are damned. I don't see that as better.
I do feel a bit evil when I turn the stove to the simmer setting >:-)
O, I thought she was talking about damning shoes and just omitted the "k" -- ya know skimmers!! >:-)
Nah... I was referring to me being a hottie.
Just to be pedantic, you might equally say sinners are forgiven; ill people die a horrid painful death....
But sinners have to suffer the bitching of christian rright wingers for thier life....
i do find it funny how they claim to be so... right.... yet refuse to read from thier updated edition and choose to use a copy that we jews modified and moved on from....
Admitedly, a little fire and brimstone is fun to keep the masses in order, but ive never come accross an interpretation in the bible of transsexualism or homosexualism that was not for the same reason for kosher....
at the time, the jewish population was small, so reproduction was a MASSIVE priority....men lying with men = no baby making... and trans... potentially a similar reason IF it was not the widely accepted fact that the pasage refers to ceremonial dress... atleast in our version...
Religion is politics.... Its a vessel for authenticating biggotry...
We all experience life in a different way. We have a range of thoughts that stretch from abnormal to ?. Possibly Lunae can state the clinical definition of mental illness.
I'm pretty sure I'm not mentally ill, or maybe I am. I have depression but have sought medical help and feel great. I have a patient ( a number in fact) who have CLL (a type of leukaemia) they feel fine and will probably not need treatment, the "illness" was picked up on routine screens. Yes they are "ill" but do not need treatment. Are they normal? Ill but don't require treatment?
Define illness!
Different to the normal physiological state.
Define normal. The majority. In Nazi Germany were the majority normal? In Pol Phots regime were the leaders and party normal? They had control.
If we state thet the majority of men beat their wives, girlfriends ( please I'm only using an example) this would be considered normal. But it's not.
Maybe we have definitions of normality too tightly defined. society deliberatly leaves out the extremes. Do any of us truely believe that a Down's syndrome person is normal? No. But would anyone say they should not be a normal member of society! Albiet needing support and help - and respect.
I don't know if this has contributed or I'm running in circles
LoL
Cindy James
Quote from: Leiandra on January 19, 2009, 07:37:22 AM
I rather think I was mentally ill before coming to terms with being female trapped in the wrong body. At least in terms of symptoms. The acceptance and realisation of who I am was the cure for that particular ailment.
Now my mental state has never been better, and the focus has shifted to a physical condition, one which I already know how to resolve.
I have autism and when I first began my transition, I remember somebody told me that I would never transition. I looked at the Standards of Care, and boy that person ever wrong.
After a few years during my transition, I realized that my mental state has been better.
Had I not transitioned--I would have committed suicide and would not be on this forum.
Hmm...
We know that there is most likely an area of the brain responsible for the sensation (perception) of gender identity. However we haven't figured out yet where it is located or how it is encoded (or even more specifically, where we can poke at it in a monkey and generalize it to we humans).
But because I DO believe it is there, I think that our GID is much more likely the result of a malfunctioning "gender identity brain center" than a malformed body. This would make it a mental birth defect - same as schizophrenia or countless others. Of course, just because it exists biologically doesn't mean that is how it is triggered. If it had a biological base and an environmental trigger (again like schizophrenia) that could explain the "late-comers" you might say.
Regardless if it is a problem in the mind or a problem in the body right now there isn't a whole heck of a lot you can do about it. Learn to live with the discomfort or transition (or something in between). If I am correct, perhaps once we have traumatized enough chimps and rhesus monkeys we will discover where we gain our concept of gender identity and will be able to have it modified.
The next question is though, who would want that modification? I think for some being "transgendered" has become so central to their identity (what with all the time being so focused on it) that it might be hard to let go - like they had all that pain for nothing. Bah, this is a discussion for another topic.
I say my brain works fine, and it's a society that doesn't get it or accept it that's "malfunctioning."
Interesting response, interalia, but what if there is a functional reason for varying gender expression/identities? Not just as some kind of "disorder"
Like if a group of animals or early people needs more members to take on female roles, but also needs more ably reproductive males? So the group pops out a genetic male, who helps take care of the children.. After all, men have the potential to lactate hehe
Kind of like how we try to reason why homosexuality exists in cisgendered people.. to control the population? Or weed out bad genetics?
oh well we can never prove or disprove if trans behavior or gender dysphoria are actual mental illnesses.. Like some of you said, it must be one of those things that just varies like the color of a flower :)
Evolution is random at best. As changes occur to a species they can be for better or for worse. The worse ones, if bad enough, effectively wipe (breed) themselves out. I cannot say that having a varying gender identity is a product of evolution trying to make up for something we lack as humans with our bi-gender system, I just accept that varying gender identity exists. Ultimately if having varying gender identities better enables the species as a whole to survive only THEN can we determine if it was a good change. We cannot forwardly predict whether changes to a species are good or bad, only in hindsight can that be determined.
I consider it a malfunction in the sense that having gender dysphoria currently seems to be counter productive to healthy functioning human life. If a use is found for it in our societal progression, then it might become something less destructive, but still not wholly good - not if those people who claim that their biology disgusts them are to be believed. No amount of societal acceptance would seem to bring them peace - only the correct "skin" currently available only through transition/surgery.
Homosexuality is way to common to be a trait strongly selected against (at a population level; obviously not at an individual level). Yet being gay was "counter productive to healthy functioning human life" until the last few decades . Is homosexuality a "malfunction"? Or did it just used to be? In today's society, being transsexual is hardly a desired trait -- but that was not always the case. There are plenty of societies in which gender-variant people (I won't say "transsexual" because they wouldn't see it how we see it) lived quite happily, or even were honored. If anything, being gender-variant was beneficial to one's functioning in life.
And who cares about the evolutionary outcome of some theoretical "trans gene"? I'm not the slightest bit interested in the evolutionary outcome of any particular gene in my chromosomes. I'm a person, not a collection of genes. Anyway, the human species is doomed to extinction, like everything else in this universe. Don't wrap value judgements in a scientific cloak. Science doesn't do values.
wow... Science is one of the few things that could make trans accepted in this modern world where facts hold more value than beliefs....
fictional scenario:
Here is a real cause.... proof that trans is not mental illness, but a genetic variability that is entirely random, and unavoidable.
You would ditch that becaues you would rather people belive you just want to be a woman?
more the fool i say.
Interalia:We ignoring natural selection today?
Alyssa is right, trans and Homosexuality dont seem to have selected out, and thus cannot be sufficiently effecting the population as a whole, Also, for it to select, it would have to be a sufficiently transferable gene, not a in uterine modification due to sheer luck.
See im all for that.... whats the problem? some of you act like you dont want to be proven right, that you want to go on forever fighting your loosing battle to just 'be acccepted for who you are with no proof' as if you enjoy the drama and the fight.... Its not just this topic... its scarily prevelant :S
Quote from: Starbuck on February 09, 2009, 04:22:59 AM
wow... Science is one of the few things that could make trans accepted in this modern world where facts hold more value than beliefs....
fictional scenario:
Here is a real cause.... proof that trans is not mental illness, but a genetic variability that is entirely random, and unavoidable.
I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me here ... seems to be a pattern. :-\ I think it's usually that you're just looking at it in a different way.
Anyway, I think a truly scientific point of view strips away the value judgements and lets you see people as who they are. It's descriptive, not prescriptive. But I just as it can't damn, it can't bless. So I think science can only bring us so far. People will still judge, because there's still the question of how to classify what you observe, and what to do with it. So in the end, the only satisfactory solution is to change society. I can't do that myself, but I can make some good progress within my social circle. That's not an idle hope -- I'm seeing it happen.
Quote from: Starbuck on February 09, 2009, 04:22:59 AM
wow... Science is one of the few things that could make trans accepted in this modern world where facts hold more value than beliefs....
fictional scenario:
Here is a real cause.... proof that trans is not mental illness, but a genetic variability that is entirely random, and unavoidable.
You would ditch that becaues you would rather people belive you just want to be a woman?
more the fool i say.
While that's true to an extent, it also adds another fortress for people with this genetic variability to hide in and throw rocks at the people who don't, yet who still have the same strength of internal identity but no 'legitimate' explanation for it. And if you give people a means to assert that they're more 'genuine' in their identity than someone else, it will be taken and used as a weapon to strengthen their own position by weakening other people's positions.
While it may be
one cause, it isn't
the only cause. I have a feeling that this would be lost on a lot of people. I think it's much more productive to go with the "People see themselves the way they do, and as long as it harms none, then regardless of the reasons why, they should be allowed to explore and express this inner identity without fear of discrimination or predjudice."
I'm going to disagree there.... if its a genetic cause, its the only cause.... other routes to that are just.... mistaken? (note im refering to the hinted 'trans gene' for m2f ts women.... not exculding other factors of similar grounding may be found for other things.... there is ALWAYS an explanation.
Considering that neurosience and psychology hasn't fully figured out how, or why consciousness works yet, let alone how self-perception and self-awareness figure into the Human Equation... that's a tiny bit presumptuous. Nevertheless, you may be right. I guess we'll see. :)
You are right about one thing, though. There is always an explanation, whether or not it's one that wants to be acknowledged. :)
Weird.. I saw no value judgements in my post attempted to be backed scientifically.
"I consider it a malfunction in the sense that having gender dysphoria currently seems to be counter productive to healthy functioning human life."
The above is my opinion based on not only personal experience but from hanging around other's like me. ;)
Plus I never said gay or trans were selected against or even would be! I don't know if I'm reading too much into the responses to my post or if you are reading too much into mine.
In the end it would be nice to know what caused it, but it would be far far nicer for society to accept us as having legitimate difficulties/differences. You pick the word you like better.
QuotePersonally, I don't care if it is a mental disorder.
Exactly my feelings!
Interalia: i was mostly refering to the post that followed yours hon.
Quote from: Starbuck on January 19, 2009, 07:09:48 PM
not rare, but the symptoms of GID are all too similar... consistant, and the cure is the same for it nomatter what... being yourself. Depression has many causes, cures, and varying sypmtoms...
Its treatable with surgery, and medication. all these things lean it much more towards a medical condition than a mental one... mental conditions can be cured, and the paitent may go along with their life as it was... how many trans people get it 'cured' and carry on as before?
the notion that "the symptoms of GID are all too similar" is way unscientific. in fact, it's specious. and "the cure?" if it is in fact a cure, it is
far from perfect.
-ell
Is life infinately more livable after transition than before....
Yes?
then its a cure. an imperfect one granted, but its better than being bloody dead.
Nice post.
I agree.
Long time dead between shopping
Cindy J
Quote from: ell on February 09, 2009, 02:45:25 PM
the notion that "the symptoms of GID are all too similar" is way unscientific. in fact, it's specious. and "the cure?" if it is in fact a cure, it is far from perfect.
-ell
The CURE is a great band. One of my fav.s :laugh:
Quote from: Starbuck on February 09, 2009, 08:18:07 AM
I'm going to disagree there.... if its a genetic cause, its the only cause.... other routes to that are just.... mistaken? (note im refering to the hinted 'trans gene' for m2f ts women.... not exculding other factors of similar grounding may be found for other things.... there is ALWAYS an explanation.
Diseases have many different causes, and yet we use the same names for them and often treat them in the same or very similar ways. Diabetes -- Type 1 has a partially genetic basis; Type 2 doesn't, at least not known. Cancer -- you can get it from a virus, from environmental exposure, or your genes. And so on. And those are diseases that we understand pretty well. We don't remotely understand the mechanisms behing transsexuality, and probably won't for a very long time. It deals with some of the deepest and most complicated aspects of the human organism, the identity.
Incidentally, homosexualilty is not understood scientifically either, yet people are so much more accepting than they were a generation ago. How did that happen, except by people insisting that, with no particularly compelling scientific backing, that their homosexual identity was valid, and convincing people of it? And why isn't this the obvious path to a better society for transsexual people?
I was under the impression that widespread acceptance of gays began to come about in the 1990s, after news stories began appearing about possible physical, genetic origins for homosexuality. I also think shock and horror at Matthew Shepard's murder contributed a lot to waking up the public about homophobia.
And the biggest impediment to our liberation is still widespread ignorance in the public. We have all the scientific information we need, and the martyrs. What we need now is good PR like the gays had to get the information across.
Quote from: Starbuck on February 09, 2009, 08:18:07 AM
I'm going to disagree there.... if its a genetic cause, its the only cause.... other routes to that are just.... mistaken? (note im refering to the hinted 'trans gene' for m2f ts women.... not exculding other factors of similar grounding may be found for other things.... there is ALWAYS an explanation.
but some explanations are not going to be genetic, of the sort, "the individual has a female gene," etc.
some explanations are going to be IS related, of the sort, "the individual does not have
all female traits nor
all male traits," etc.
IS implications, though they introduce a whole array of non-binary sex
and gender issues, cannot be ignored.
-ell
you do realise that Intersex already HAS genetic explanations?
Here's something you may find interesting. :)
http://theblog.philosophytalk.org/2005/04/the_boogey_of_g.html (http://theblog.philosophytalk.org/2005/04/the_boogey_of_g.html)
Quote from: Starbuck on February 10, 2009, 11:46:51 PM
you do realise that Intersex already HAS genetic explanations?
That's a rather gross assumption. The majority of cases of intersex conditions are related to environment rather than heredity. About five to seven IS syndromes are caused by a variety of genetic conditions. The other twenty-odd are probably not with many caused by polutants.
thankyou for explaining what i meant by 'explanations' i never said hereditory... but that we know what causes them to an extent, not why, but what, and that they ARE caused.
Leiandra: Ofcourse genes provide a channelable pathway to certain attributes, but in the same vein, hair colour is a fact of genetics... as is say, breast size, features, or size.... Intersexed conditions are generally that form of genetically selected, not something you can change if you want to ><
Look, I believe that there's a scientifically knowable basis. I just have some problems with the implications that some people draw from that.
First, back to the original topic of this thread: having a scientifc explanation doen't make it a mental illness any more than a scientific explanation for homosexuality makes that a mental illness.
Second, I don't think we have a very good explanation yet.
Third, I hate appealing to science to justify my own existence, basically because I don't buy the resoning myself. being transsexual is okay because it's okay, end of story. We don't judge other traits on whether they are inate. We don't accept violence from XYY males (okay, that's been disproved -- but we wouldn't if it were a valid link). But, what the heck, if it works to help some people come around to accepting transsexuality, I'll swallow my pride. I'll just tell myself it helps people see it in a different light, and maybe that's what they need.
Whether it is or isn't...
After I transitioned I was waaaay happier.
If I'm mentally ill, I'm an immoderately happy mentally ill person. And I'm just fine with that.