Good morning boys and girls!
Today, we're going to talk feelings.
Specifically, those feelings you have about being androgyne. So, let's pretend for a sec that you're all transsexuals and that you like to go on about dysphoria, about passing, about transition, about presenting and such.
To start, here's a few questions:
1. Are you dysphoric?
if the answer is yes, please explain what you're dysphoric about.
if the answer is no, please explain what you're dysphoric about.
2. Do you pass?
if the answer is yes, please explain how this makes you feel.
if the answer is no, please explain how this makes you feel.
Who would like to be first?
Now, if I hear any giggling, if I see any joking, if I smell any thread jacking, the violaters will be turned over Nero's knee and whipped without impunity.
Do you read me, people? Whipped WITHOUT IMPUNITY.
Whip me, Nero, whip me hard ;)
Fine, I'll answer the questions, even though I'm not really sure I count as androgyne.
1. I am dysphoric about my body; my body map is entirely male, while I am not. Things I dislike most are my female-width pelvis, my heaving bosom, and my genitalia (or the lack thereof). Hormones would not really change most of the things I care about; however, I still plan to go on them because they will 1.) change my voice, 2.) redistribute fat in possibly pleasing ways, and 3.) may have an emotional effect. Hormones will also do things I'm ambivalent about (change in facial feature; I happen to like my face, but I'm not overly attached) and slightly irritating changes (facial hair). I plan to get male chest reconstruction and a vaginectomy, but I'm holding out on better bottom surgery for a while.
I am also dysphoric about presentation. I am fine being referred to as male or genderless (although I don't have experience with the latter), but the female role has got to go, hence transition.
2. Ish. I used be thought of as male maybe 70:30 by strangers, now female definately has the upper hand because I have long hair (almost long enough to put up; I want it long for prom so I'm growing it out now). This is all without any effort or binding, and sometimes in women's clothes, so I think with a haircut and a binder I'll be good. However, I want to get to a point where it is an effort, although not impossible, to pass as female.
Quote from: Nero on January 20, 2009, 01:53:44 PM
1. Are you dysphoric?
if the answer is yes, please explain what you're dysphoric about.
if the answer is no, please explain what you're dysphoric about.
2. Do you pass?
if the answer is yes, please explain how this makes you feel.
if the answer is no, please explain how this makes you feel.
1. Yes.
My body is wrong. I have a good body as far as bodies go but it is just wrong. I feel like there is a phantom overlay of something more feminin but I have been squeezed into this awkward shape. My genitals don't really bother me a lot. I like to use them, though lately they are seeming out of place too. But I seem to crave curves and theighs, and breasts and narrower shoulders. It is like being ravenously hungry but having no food. I look at my chest expecting something else and instead I am faced with hairyness and inverted little nipples and a hairy belly. My face just seem wrong to me too. I want to be womanly. I desire womens clothing and would probably wear more but it just hangs wrong on this male frame. This causes me a lot of anguish. I want to be beautiful, I want to float, I want people to give me earings as presents, I want to wear beautiful colors and flowing dresses. I want to be able to take a shower and have the water feel right as it runs down my body. I want my lovers hands to feel right running over my body. I want to be able to walk into a clothes shop and not have people look at me like an intruder or a freak. I am also dysphoric about being treated as a male. I hate it. I hate the comments "you're a boy, what do you think. You're a boy, you fix it". I hate the expectation. I hate being called son. I think if there is such a thing I would be borderline woman. Mentaly I definitly don't feel like a woman, but physically I would like to be one.
2. No. Terrible. Pain, rivers of endless pain. I still get mistaken for a male, only now I seem to be in a class of freaky fetish males to be feared and hated. It makes me feel isolated, alone, inhibited, self concious. I don't feel that I truely live.
Phew, I've been having a bad month, it probably shows.
I feel like what I have is a utility vehicle for a body. It is a useful thing to have, but not something you would take someone out of a date in.
*in a sing-song voice* Good morning, Mr. Nero.
1. Are you dysphoric?
Yes, I am dysphoric.
For the most part, this is due to my body hair and body shape. I fail to see the need for any hair on my body below my eyes. Likewise, I would prefer a body with a more ambiguous silhouette. I think it's pretty obvious that I'm physically male. I would not necessarily change my genitals, but I wouldn't mind a pair of breasts.
Others on this board have essentially said that what I want is Klinefelter's syndrome. This is not true. I don't want a genetic condition that results in the various neurological problems that go along with this syndrome. What I want is a hybrid body. One that incorporates both male and female physiology, yet a body that clearly is neither.
2. Do you pass?
If by "pass" you mean do I have an androgynous appearance, no. I think that there are things I can do to correct that. Clothing is one way. Shaving very closely and the subtle use of makeup to hide the beard shadow might be another. Longer hair is a third. It seems that there are some things I can do, but I feel I'll always be perceived as male.
1. Dysphoria?
Yes, very much so, on a good day its a niggling thing in the back of my mind, on a bad day i wanna rip out my own throat. And this is why i have a serious drug problem, screw reality, it doesnt matter what gender you are when there are rainbows in rainbows in everything.
2. Passable?
Sort of, i do have a slightly androgynous look, although the only person whos ever asked me my gender was some kid in the park
"S'cuse me, are you a boy or a girl?" Made me giggle.
If i make an effort, tie my hair back, shave properly and dress more fem than my usual then im sure i would confuse a hell of a lot of people
1. Dysphoria? To some degree, yes. But it's not a crippling issue for me. As gerry rafferty once said, i'm stuck in the middle.
2. Passable? I don't think so, although I did get mam'd once at the grocery store ??? :P
Quote from: Nero on January 20, 2009, 01:53:44 PM
1. Are you dysphoric?
if the answer is yes, please explain what you're dysphoric about.
if the answer is no, please explain what you're dysphoric about.
2. Do you pass?
if the answer is yes, please explain how this makes you feel.
if the answer is no, please explain how this makes you feel.
Yes, I deal w dysphoria. Sometimes more, sometimes less. It is more social than physical, I truly dislike being perceived as male, although I have also experienced some body dysphoria as well. But not enough to want to go through SRS.
I don't "pass", although for the most part when I transitioned, I didn't care if I did or not, other than being safe from violence. When I was younger and had more hair, it was easier to pass as female than it is now. I don't know for sure if I pass as androgyne, I don't think so, most people don't know what one is, let alone what they should look like. Probably people just perceive me as a weird guy. :'(
Z
Dysphoric?
Yes and no. To an extent. I'm very glad you asked me that question.
Having a female body irks me somewhat, though I'm not sure why exactly. I just don't feel like it suits me. Like when you wear shoes that don't suit you, but you keep wearing them, because you can't afford new shoes, or you're not sure any other pair of shoes would really be any better.
Pass?
I could if I tried, I'm sure. But I don't. I would be too paranoid about someone I know seeing me...
Dysphoric?
Sometimes. Like at the end of last year, I declared that I was going to live as an androgynous gay man. But then it just went away and I'm pretty comfortable in my body right now. Who knows if/when that will change again.
Pass?
Nope. I mean, really, look at that picture. I've got a pretty girly face...very cheeky. I think it would be easier to pass if I were skinny though. (working on that...I've lost 3 pounds! wOOt.)
But then again, I'm just not sure what I would want to pass as...???
(this serious stuff is hard, Oh Majestic One...:-*)
thought id better reply to this one and it oh so tempting to just write a joke, but that would just be silly
1. not all the time, and never really used to be until i realised that i felt much better the less male looking i have become. mostly though laser on beard which is a big change. to the point where today ive had to go have my top lip done as there was shaddow there for the first time in a bit and it was really getting to me and also i felt very selfconsious of it.
2. pass no dont think so, but what i do, do is not get treated as a male as often and sometimes get treated as a female on occasions. even when being treated male its always in a less assertive agressive way now which im more comfertable with. and when being treated as female allows me to express my interests that others consider female and be more allowed to do so, even when not presenting as such its more a state of mind thing than a physical thing. though id still like to look less male and possibley a little bit more female, but not by much. im happy when people allow my actions and words to gender me not my body, that would be cool
1. Yes. Not so much about my genitalia, like most TS folks, but I was definitely bothered by my overall male form enough that I found it necessary to do something about it.
2. Eleven years of HRT has gotten me to the point that most of the time I pass pretty well. That is until I open my mouth and the drill sergeant baritone comes flowing out of me. And yeah, the ambiguity causes a certain amount of confusion in others, but it seems that the responses I evoke are generally playful, pleasant and / or curious. Rarely do I get a true negative reaction. For some reason it's always been important to me to look like a female, I just have very little interest in behaving like one... or in working very hard at maintaining the facade.
1. At times, I don't have the cuteness, prettiness or grace I desire as a man woman or androgyne.
2. As What? How does an androgyne pass as an androgyne? I pass well enough as a Pica.
Quote from: Pica Pica on January 23, 2009, 08:19:31 AM
1. At times, I don't have the cuteness, prettiness or grace I desire as a man woman or androgyne.
2. As What? How does an androgyne pass as an androgyne? I pass well enough as a Pica.
What's a pica? Is that some newly discovered long forgotten species?
feels like it sometimes
is a pica plant, animal, or mineral?
a large upholstered cushion.
well it was kind of hard to just read the questions and answer in that form for me, but I wrote this today and I think the answers turn out to be in there...
Life is wierd. But what else is new. Now that people have begun to accept me as a woman, and I've begun to accept myself I wonder again. Everything is so utterly intertwined now, being in a strange body, being called to be a shaman, the way I feel about my family. I feel like I'm in so many places at once, like so much is passing through me. Its all connected somewhere, and maybe some of it is just delusion, but I don't think so, perhaps delusion if I no longer listened to my dreams, and no longer tried to be happy. For a long time this was my problem, I would never try, only when absolutely neccesary, because I thought it went with the taoist philosophy. Now though I see the animals and plants, I feel the bear growing in me, and to sound like a nature freak or hippie is of my least concern, someone is on the same wavelength and I'm beginning to see now what it all really means. I was a cub walking through the forest with my friends close behind, but emerging on the other side they had dissapeared. We were going to a safe place but I realized it was just my house again with David there. Its a deeply unspoken thing, but at least with friends its comfortable, theres those moments, maybe just when someone leaves when I realize we've been trying to say the same thing behind all the pointlessness. Depressed? Maybe, I'm used to it, and now actually it seems life is more interesting, at least I have a passion, and a goal, I am woman, hear me roar! But laying looking at the stars at the grove I feel like its so much bigger, maybe it has to do with everyone and everything. Our society is supposed to be switching over to express more truly its feminine side, on youtube, I see goddesses everywhere. ->-bleeped-<-, walking around I see goddesses everywhere, its kind of funny. But What is it really? Though it keeps coming up incomplete feeling, I know somehow it is the right place to be, though I don't understand. Last night I had written something I thought was really meaningful about what being transgender means to be, but it was deleted at the last moment because I didn't save. That happens a lot recently, so I was beating up on myself because I feel like the worlds against me, and the truth is never going to get out. I feel like the more we can speak freely and without fear the more this good feeling grows, the more things prosper.
But then again, encountering the right person at the right time to say the right thing is where I get left in the dust. Usually I'm with my parents, they are the only ones who care and feel comfortable enough to ask me. Explaining is getting caught up in resistance and fighting over petty ->-bleeped-<-. Sometimes I feel like I'm taking care of them, but I need them. I could leave, but I would die.
Why do I think that though? I've got more faith than that. If I leave... but what does that even mean? I just don't want to cause any more sadness, in myself or in others, but so far they say its one or the other. I just can't accept that, this is too much.
I've been reading psychology and from what it says it seems like this all stems from this one pretty embarassing thing that happened when I was a kid, haha, how lame.. I laugh but its just to hide what it really means to me. It talking about this thing maybe. Talking is healing, but its hard, only strangers are quiet enough to listen but if they hear it feels like it would be too close. I've got to find that balance where I can express myself and not ignore others.
just good vibes, those'll keep it moving while we're all climbing that rope to...
Quote from: Nero on January 23, 2009, 08:35:24 AM
is a pica plant, animal, or mineral?
Apparently a pica is 4.23333333 millimeters, so I guess a pica pica would be 17.92111109558888889 millimeters
it's also the latin name for the european m->-bleeped-<-ie...
and a font, and the compulsion to eat inedible things.
yeah, you look like you've been noshing on lots of inedibles alright.
Quote from: Pica Pica on January 23, 2009, 08:00:50 PM
it's also the latin name for the european m->-bleeped-<-ie...
and a font, and the compulsion to eat inedible things.
I liked the 4.23333 thing better than those other definitions......
... it is also how one particular Pokemon talks.
I'm still waiting for those lightningbolts Pica ;)
According to Wikipedia:
Pica may refer to:
Pica (unit of measure), in typesetting and document layout
Pica (disorder), abnormal appetite for earth and other non-foods
Pica (genus), a genus of m->-bleeped-<-ie
Pica Press, a publishing imprint
Pica, Chile, city in the Tarapacá Region of Chile
Pica, Cumbria, a village in northwest England
Palestine Jewish Colonization Association, established by Edmond James de Rothschild
Píča, a geometric symbol used as a sexual reference in the Czech Republic and Slovakia
Pika, an animal in the order Lagomorpha, also known as rock rabbits or coneys
Pica, an alternative name for the grape Merille
DJ Pica Pica Pica (DJ 光光光), an alias used by Yamantaka Eye
Joe Pica, pianist
At the risk of repeating myself, one day toward the end of 8th grade I was at the home of my best friend, Jeanette, who was complaining that next year, in high school she would be required to wear dresses or skirts to school. As she continued complaining about such clothing, I sympathized, but allowed as how I had no experience wearing dresses. So, I wore one of hers the rest of the day. Her mother took a picture of me that is upstairs in my attic. I found it quite comfortable, but no, I did not pass. There's something about my face, bowed legs, and my hands and arms.
Pity. I pass for a man, but I'm not--not really. I remember complaining to Grete Zemans when we were six years old that I did not want my voice to change, nor did I want my face to sprout hair. And I remember standing in the drugstore, a young teenager, reading about the transformation of Christine Jorgenson. That appealed to me, but I had no intention of dating men, nor of presenting as a glamorous entertainer. I spoke of these feelings to no one.
I always thought that if I am not a man, I must be a woman, though I lacked a good idea of what that would be like. Stumbling on this group one year ago, I discovered that M and F are not the only alternatives. My body is clumsy, nobody's ideal, but it works, generally--and for that I am thankful and grateful. And I have very little body hair. Pica wrote recently of wanting to live to age 70; I am close enough to that age that I desire more than 70 years even though I, likely, will never look presentable in a two-piece swimsuit, a ball gown, or a woman's tailored suit.
My hope, then, is that my wife will treat me as her equal and best friend, and that, to borrow Pica's words, my friends here will think of me as cuter, prettier, far more graceful--oh, and maybe sweeter--than my actual embodiment. And that nobody will whip me!
S
you know the people on here, and people of life in general and me ask a lot, so i guess I'm just grateful for questions and answers, and converesations and nonduality, mmhmm
Dysphoria - Yes, all the time. At times horrifically painful and causing trouble in many aspects of my relationship as well as social life. Elaborating takes too much time though ???
Pass - Yes and no. If I tried, maybe I could pass as a young/teenageish short, slightly skinny male, but when I don't try, almost all my customers call me Ma'am/Miss (stupid voice >:()
Dysphoric
Not so much. I learned the word rather late in life, and I guess I'm better off for not knowing it. I always thought I was the other "D" word, 'different.' And I've always been pretty much OK with it. There were, if not a lot, at least a few different people I knew, so that helped. When I got to HS I found people who liked at least some of it, and worked with that.
I agree, people who are told they are supposed to be miserable, tend to be.
Abe Lincoln once said something to the effect that 'most people are about as happy as they make up their mind to be' and might be right about that. I had some things that were in my world that I could take advantage of, others that were kinda ruled out, but oh well, ya can't do them all. So work at what you can, and don't sweat what you can't.
Quote from: Pica Pica on January 26, 2009, 08:08:47 AM
I agree, people who are told they are supposed to be miserable, tend to be.
I think it would be dangerous to suggest this is true for everyone. (Though I am in a miserable frame of mind at the moment so everything is a bit grey :'()
Therre are too many other factors at play. Some people are prone to being miserable for a whole range or reasons. I don't think it is a personal failing to sucumb. It would be inhuman to not feel some misery in the face of extreme pain or the pain of others.
I guess I'll join in the fun.
Dysphoria:
Regarding my physical body, I'm somewhat dysphoric. I'm pretty happy with my overall shape: I'm thin and small boned for being male, which, while not as pleasant as having hips and a (small) set of breasts, is certainly better for my self-image than being burly and broad-shouldered. For that, I'm immensely grateful.
The body hair just kills me though. About two years ago, I started growing hair on my chest and shoulders; ick! Fortunately for me, I have very light-coloured body hair and beard shadow. YAY!
Passing, but as what?
I'm always happy when people perceive me as a woman, even though I'm not. Without wishing to sound too loopy, I imagine myself -- my ideal self, anyways -- as a fairy. (Not the gay man kind.) Like the super-pretty, genderless, humanoid, graceful, winged critters?
I've never really "grasped" the gender concept; the "I'm a boy"/"I'm a girl" thing. That's why I don't consider myself a transsexual, and that's why I'm not transitioning (physically): It would be a major life change and a HUGE nuisance, when I'm not even really a woman. In some ways, it'd be very nice not to have people thinking of me as a man -- and it'd be really cool if I could rename myself "Audrey" -- but in others, it's rather nice being a not-man in a male body; I like to think that my existence will in some small way erode the whole gender thing. If I transitioned, I'd just pop back into the normal gender continuum without having made a difference, and since for me, it isn't a HUGE identity issue, I think I might be able to live with that.
But as I was supposed to be saying, regarding passing, in androgynous dressy clothing, it all depends on context, but it averages out to be about equal man/woman. Until very recently, I hadn't worn distinctly feminine clothing for anything besides shopping, so I don't have much to go on. Earlier this semester, I heard one of my TAs refer to me as "she", although I'm not sure if he still thinks I'm a girl. (The person to whom he was speaking knows me as "he", but he didn't say anything. And yes, it was funny to watch. I had a very hard time keeping a straight face.)
I'd always thought my voice gave me away; I have a very high voice for being male -- I *never* get called "sir" on the phone -- and when I'm happy and comfortable, I sound like a woman, but I felt like I talk in a lower-pitched voice when I'm angry or very serious. But I just remembered that the 911 dispatch operator called me "ma'am" when I called the police on my neighbours, and I was certainly serious and angry.
I think that I've rambled far too much, and I apologise. It's way past my bed-time, but I felt like working through my thoughts a bit. I do want to ask a question, if anyone's got this far: If I spend the rest of my life with testicles, what other wonders are in store for me? Like I said, I'm passably pretty. Will that change much? Aside from baldness and ear hair, do I have much to fear? And is there anything that getting an orchi -- which I *can* afford and handle -- at a young age (22) would help with in this department, or ward off any unforeseen masculinisation?
Good night and thanks,
- Burgundy
Quote from: Nicky on January 26, 2009, 01:43:03 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on January 26, 2009, 08:08:47 AM
I agree, people who are told they are supposed to be miserable, tend to be.
I think it would be dangerous to suggest this is true for everyone. (Though I am in a miserable frame of mind at the moment so everything is a bit grey :'()
Therre are too many other factors at play. Some people are prone to being miserable for a whole range or reasons. I don't think it is a personal failing to sucumb. It would be inhuman to not feel some misery in the face of extreme pain or the pain of others.
Welkl of course, misery is a genuine emotion and can be caused by lots of things. But it does seem to be true that people who expect to be miserable are more likely to be so. My dad just got a letter, where the family (mum, dad and 10 yr old son) have all been hospitilised for stress, despite the fact their lives are no more stressful than anyone elses. This is because the family have a culture for stress, they expect stress, they almost welcome stress as a certainty. And there are people the same with miserableness.