fake christians or sincere atheists?
Quote from: Katia on January 25, 2009, 10:31:54 AM
fake christians or sincere atheists?
Uhm, I think the dichotomy of the premise is a bit -artificial-, but it's still interesting.
I need more data to answer.
Is there a specific Christian Message to which you're referring? The 'the' indicates specific-ness...
In what way would either a 'sincere atheist' or a 'fake christian' be a threat to this specific message?
What criteria are used to determine which christians get sorted into the 'fake' category? ('fake christians' certainly don't self-identify as such. Nor 'insincere atheists'.)
Still and all, I do want to see a discussion on your premise.
If I have to choose, I'd say that for me, 'sincere atheists' represent a sort of loyal opposition to a philosophy ('christian message',) while 'fake christians' represent the "Extremism in the defense of [?????] is no vice" blind defenders of a position. What makes them 'fake' is that they are defending the position for the power it gives them as supporters of a 'patriarchal' system wherein they derive personal power and status for defending/advancing/upholding the status-quo -- whatever status-quo 'team' they have chosen to join and support.
To choose between the two depends on how the 'christian message' premise is perceived. If it's something that needs to be challenged to remain true, then the blind defenders will do it no justice, being tied to the status that defending it confers, and leading the core principle to be eroded from within by a groupthink reverberation chamber, and a metastasizing of the the original core principals to something corrupt.
The Loyal Opposition will then serve the function of finding the indefensible parts of the core principle premise.
After some thought, I won't write a corollary, as I feel that core principles need a certain amount of continual testing and renewal. There will always be an impetus for decay from within, and calls for modification or replacement from without.
This doesn't address a toxic principle displacing one that is better for the well-being of the entire body-politic.
Let's replace 'christian message' with 'defense of America', or 'principle of freedom', or 'reproductive justice'. Those are ambiguous terms -- their meaning is dependent on whether you view them through a conservative or progressive world-frame.
Now that I've thoroughly muddied the waters...
=K
fake christians.
In the Bible, god is portrayed as telling his followers several times, "My name is profaned among the nations because of you." (Isaiah 52:5; Ezekiel 36:20; Romans 2:24; 2 Peter 2:2) There is no doubt that Christians are the greatest threat to Christianity. As Jesus said, "Woe to you deacons and pastors, you hypocrites! You travel the world over searching for one convert, and when have one make him twice a much a child of hell as you yourselves are!"
Fake Christians.
What's up? You thinking of joining a convent?
Any christians who are there out of fear instead of compassion, which seems to me is the majority of them.
Mina.
Quote from: Lisbeth on January 25, 2009, 02:14:15 PM
In the Bible, god is portrayed as telling his followers several times, "My name is profaned among the nations because of you." (Isaiah 52:5; Ezekiel 36:20; Romans 2:24; 2 Peter 2:2) There is no doubt that Christians are the greatest threat to Christianity. As Jesus said, "Woe to you deacons and pastors, you hypocrites! You travel the world over searching for one convert, and when have one make him twice a much a child of hell as you yourselves are!"
Or, as Nietzche said:
"The word "Christianity" is already a misunderstanding - in reality there has been only one Christian, and he died on the Cross.";)
Chekhov noted there was a huge chasm between just saying "i believe" and truly living as a Christian.
i actually admire true Christians, but they are extremely rare.
Fake Christians
Of course, they'd probably answer that it's the atheists ;)
Z
christians who project a bad image are as bad for christianity, as atheists who project a bad image are for atheism.
It's the guy in a dress. The one who is like you, but doing it wrong who is more damaging then those who have nothing to do with it at all. Its Ted Haggerty out there in boy land with the meth, not tekla sort of backwards tip-toeing out of any conversation where people start talking about having a personal relationship with a big invisible deal that created the universe and now controls our every move and knows everything too. I figure since god knows I'm going to leave and ordained that it be me to leave, I better leave.
Quote from: Pica Pica on January 26, 2009, 08:33:24 AM
christians who project a bad image are as bad for christianity, as atheists who project a bad image are for atheism.
Sounds like we've hung out at Speakers Corner on the odd Sunday afternoon... ;)
Some of the funniest [stuff] I ever heard came from the hecklers.
=K
i used to go once a week
Ok, my thoughts on the matter. I'm going to use alot of pronouns in here, so just a warning, I'm not assigning a gender to the Almighty. I'm just using what is the common usage. I personally believe that God created both man and woman in his image, and that as such, our genders reflect two sides of the same coin.
I would say that "fake" Christians are the ones that create the greatest threat to the Christian message. When I say the Christian message, I mean the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that He was the Son of God who was sent to redeem mankind, and that regardless of what a person has done or will do, He has the power to save them. Christ never said, "I came to save to good people, the sober, the righteous, the church-going". He came and dealt with those that society considered outcasts: the whores, the taxpayers, the "sinners" (read, Greeks). He knew that the high and mighty of the religion would never accept Him.
To pervert that message into something different is completely against what he taught. In the Book of Acts, there is the clear statement that only Faith in Christ Jesus, as your savior is necessary for redemeption. Does that mean that our lives will change after the fact? Yes, to some degree. Does it mean that we fundamentally change who we are? No, our bodies and how we are wired are still the same, the way God created us. And since God doesn't create garbage, I have to beleive that the way we are wired is the way we were meant to be.
To say that God couldn't save anyone, and to reject people because they are different from you is what gives Christianity its bad name, especially true of Bible fundamentalism. They pride themselves on Scriptural knowledge, but read so much into what they see there that they miss the truth. Their own books make it clear....He is God, He has no limits, All of humanity is equal in his eyes.....gay, straight, TS, drunk, sober, whatever. To say that anyone is any better than another is legalism at its worst.
To that end I think the worst enemies of Christianity is Christianity itself. I think some preachers are going to be surprised just how many people are in Heaven, because they believed on the Son, without all their petty little prejudices. But in terms of winning people to the gospel, when you start preaching messages of exclusion, its accomplishes the exact opposite of what you are trying to do. As was noted earlier, a sincere athesist is simply an oppositionist. Someone to debate with, explain your position to, and try to win to your side.
-Angela
Quote from: Pica Pica on January 26, 2009, 03:13:09 PM
i used to go once a week
Prostate problems?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)
Quote from: Kristi on January 30, 2009, 10:19:07 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on January 26, 2009, 03:13:09 PM
i used to go once a week
Prostate problems?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)
No, no, PicaPica doesn't mean the 'loo ('bog', whatever...)
>:-)
=K
He was the Son of God who was sent to redeem mankind, and that regardless of what a person has done or will do, He has the power to save them
That is the threat, not only to xianianity but to the world in general. Since none of that can be proven, and since, as you so perfectly state it, what we do does not matter, then - well, the record stands, and it's far from perfect.
if you wish to pretend to know about something which you do not, why talk to me about it? if i disagree, you throw yourself into violent upheaval, and call me demon-spawn. my only choice then, is to agree, shut my mouth, or disappear.
Quiet, Demon-Spawn!