Just after I got my name change I went to the DMV to get my driver's license updated then to the SSA office nearby to get that done. The DMV was a breeze and I walked out with my new name and "female" on the license. When I got to the SSA office I produced the notarized court order which stated I would be "forever gendered female and not male" written on it.
They asked for a picture ID with the old name on it. I said I just forfeited my old license but I could produce a birth certificate.
"No, we need a photo ID."
"I have a bank ID and a health club ID with my old name and picture."
"No we need an official ID, like a driver's license."
"But in this state you are not allowed to have more than one driver's license and all I have is the new one I just gave you." She looked at me like she didn't know that. ???
"I'm sorry. There's nothing I can do. I cannot process this without an official picture ID. Do you have an old state ID?"
"No. All I had was my old driver's license but the state has that now."
"I'm sorry. You'll have to come back with an official ID with a photo."
So I'm at my wits end! How am I going to find this document she needs? I head back home and begin to scour through all my old stuff. I have a desk that I've been putting things in for decades. Months pass and after many failed attempts, I'm rummaging through a junk drawer and I find a driver's license from 1983! OMG!
So I finally have the magical ID and head back to the SSA office but this time I choose the one closer to home. I walk up there and hand the lady my application and court order. In my purse I have my current license and the very old one. She asks for the IDs.
"This one is from 1983. I see this name change is fairly new. Do you have a newer form of ID?"
I said no and I told her what happened at the other office. She asks for other forms of identification with the old name, none of which have a picture on them, but all of which I had with me the first time. Problem is, all those IDs have my new name now!
I again retell my previous experience. She finally accepts the old license.
As she's looking at her monitor she asks for the doctor's affidavit stating I had GRS. I made a stab at bypassing that requirement and showed her the "forever be gendered female" statement on the court order. She said she'd have to check with her supervisor.
She came back and said they needed the affidavit or they could not change the gender.
"Okay, just put it through with the name change but leave the gender unchanged."
"We can't do that. It will get kicked out because you have a female name and a male gender. The system won't accept it."
"I just talked to my tax accountant and he told me I had to get the name to match the number before I can file my tax return. "
"Yes, that's true" she said.
"Okay, all of my earnings reported to the IRS have my new name with this social security number. I have to get that filed so the name and number match or I can't file my taxes."
"But we can't do it because you have a female name and a male marker."
"But I have to do it or I can't file my taxes."
"I know but if we submit it like this the system will kick it out."
Frustrated I said, "Let's just try to put this through as is. If SSA kicks it out at least I'll have documentation showing I tried to get the name and number to match and I'll let the tax guy worry about it."
So she agreed, processed my application then showed me the gender marker was still male.
Lesson learned: In our patriarchal society, it's what's between your legs that defines you, not your presentation, not your self identity, not whats in your brain.
Once I get the money for GRS and get that affidavit, you can bet I'll be flashing that all over town! "EXTRA, EXTRA, Read all about it!" :eusa_wall:
Julie
Err this is ridiculous. I went up to a Pennsylvania SSA office with my California license that already has my new name and gender on it, gave them the SSA form and my surgeons letter... And they were like okay and two minutes later my gender marker was changed. They are just poopie pants.
I accidentally left my photo ID at home when I went to SS and it wasn't an issue. But I did photocopy my Female driver's license before I changed everything over...why did I imagine a scenario such as this being possible? Though I'm not sure a photocopy of an ID would work.
And what about people who have male names but are female, and their parents named them that way on purpose? I think the SS people lie...
Jay
Strange. When I change my name at the SSA, I tried and failed to get the marker change. He then said that it would kick out with a female name and a 'Male' marker. I replied 'I know that' and he said ok and made the change. He said when I get my SRS letter, to come back and change the marker.
After my Orchie, I am going to try again. I may have to change the b/c first.
Janet
What does their system say about people with names that can go either way??? ???
Quote from: Kara Lee on January 27, 2009, 04:44:41 PM
What does their system say about people with names that can go either way??? ???
As my frustration increased I almost blurted that silly question out!
Julie
and what about johnny cash's boy named sue? more character building for him i spose.
and how does a computer know what is a female name or not, unless some div went through a computer with a baby names dictionary?
That's ridiculous. There is legally no such thing as "female names" and "male names" in the US.
(In Germany, France and maybe in Québec due to Napoleonic law there is such a distinction.)
After I had done my name change (but no gender change) I went to the SSA,
showed them my US passport in my old name and my court ordered name change.
They modified their records with my "female name" and kept the male gender marker.
That was five minutes work.
This sounds like purest crap!!! I changed my name years and years ago, and nobody said that my new name (which is unambiguously male) would be a mismatch with my sex marker (which was female).
It could be that since 9/11, the SSA now flags suspicious name changes and automatically checks them against some kind of huge name list...but, seriously, so many names are unisex or ambiguously gendered that this seems unlikely. Still, a lot of stupid procedures were put into place after 9/11...
Sorry they were such a pain.
I can understand the frustration. Some states simply punch the DL as invalid and give it back and you get a new one about a week later. But I don't understand if the SSA requires the surgeon's letter of SRS/GRS, what's the confusion?
Yes, I agree there should be ways to allow the gender change with less, such as court judgement, forms signed by therapists/physicians, or something to assure the SSA your gender change is sufficiently permanent (some folks do change back later), but until then it's what they require.
It is the regulations and asking them to change it without it puts them at risk. Remember their name will be in the record and file, and an audit could easily come back to them and their job. Let's sit in their chair and at their desk before we ask them to bend the rules "just for us." What about them?
Yes, it's a binary rule based one criteria, but to date I haven't seen the agreement which allows the change everyone can accept, not just transpeople or the transcommunity, but the government and society. After, people do have expectations of sex and gender and the transcommunity seems to forget it's about everyone and not just us.
After all, do we want society to say it's ok for women to have male gentalia? And if they expect women to have vagina, genetic or surgical, what alternatives can we provide to convince them otherwise?
Just a thought, but not necessarily my view.
QuoteBut we can't do it because you have a female name and a male marker
That is her personal view as a bigot and not the federal rules. I changed first, my name to a female name then a year later my gender marker. For a name change you need one picture ID and a second government id with you birthday plus the court order. I used an old draft card. The gender marker can be changed with a doctors letter.
Boy I just love the SS office. They make every other gov. department look easy (including the passport office). Hum I had a female name with Gender M at SS for a year. All told it only took 4 trips to the SS office to get everything changed.
Beni
Good thing she let you change the name anyway. When I first went to the SSA to change my name prior to SRS, I was told the same thing -- "come back after SRS, we can't have you on the system with a female name and a male sex marker." I told the guy about Germany having laws about which names were allowed for men and which for women, but that "this isn't Germany" and that the US has no such laws. He thought about it for a second, and said, "well... ok."
I think civil servants make up half of their ->-bleeped-<- as they go along.
Lia
haha Lia yeah they do. Hey while were on the topic. I got told the same thing about having to be post op to change the gender on a drivers license, Social security etc. Although when I went to get my passport recently with my birth certificate, drivers license and the application itself all clearly stating Male, they still put F on my passport. Now im not sure if Ill have to have it changed to Male to be valid/legal. Well if thats the case than itll be over my dead body. LOL
Audrey
QuoteI think civil servants make up half of their ->-bleeped-<- as they go along
These are the same people we think are going to fix the economy, climate change and stop terrorism?
So much depends on what clerk you get, they have a lot of power, they just hate to use it.
a notary is always great for photocopying in front of them and getting it notorized and then change papers, DL etc etc no one can argue with a copy notarized.
Quote from: postoplesbian on January 28, 2009, 10:22:29 AM
a notary is always great for photocopying in front of them and getting it notorized and then change papers, DL etc etc no one can argue with a copy notarized.
My court ordered name change document was an original notarized document. On it it stated "Further, that any and all gender identification issued for Julie M shall be female, not male."
The DMV accepted that. But not the SSA.
As it was earlier stated, they make their own rules.
Julie
Well its a different standard, federal and state, or more like fifty differing state standards ranging from a form and simple attachment to just about impossible.
And not to side with the SSA, but they are dealing with money, sometimes a large amount, so they have to make sure its all above board. And yeah, its not just a bureaucracy, its a federal bureaucracy - so its much more complicated by several orders of magnitude.
Quote from: Julie Marie on January 27, 2009, 12:04:57 PM
Just after I got my name change I went to the DMV to get my driver's license updated then to the SSA office nearby to get that done. The DMV was a breeze and I walked out with my new name and "female" on the license. When I got to the SSA office I produced the notarized court order which stated I would be "forever gendered female and not male" written on it.
They asked for a picture ID with the old name on it. I said I just forfeited my old license but I could produce a birth certificate.
"No, we need a photo ID."
"I have a bank ID and a health club ID with my old name and picture."
"No we need an official ID, like a driver's license."
"But in this state you are not allowed to have more than one driver's license and all I have is the new one I just gave you." She looked at me like she didn't know that. ???
"I'm sorry. There's nothing I can do. I cannot process this without an official picture ID. Do you have an old state ID?"
"No. All I had was my old driver's license but the state has that now."
"I'm sorry. You'll have to come back with an official ID with a photo."
So I'm at my wits end! How am I going to find this document she needs? I head back home and begin to scour through all my old stuff. I have a desk that I've been putting things in for decades. Months pass and after many failed attempts, I'm rummaging through a junk drawer and I find a driver's license from 1983! OMG!
So I finally have the magical ID and head back to the SSA office but this time I choose the one closer to home. I walk up there and hand the lady my application and court order. In my purse I have my current license and the very old one. She asks for the IDs.
"This one is from 1983. I see this name change is fairly new. Do you have a newer form of ID?"
I said no and I told her what happened at the other office. She asks for other forms of identification with the old name, none of which have a picture on them, but all of which I had with me the first time. Problem is, all those IDs have my new name now!
I again retell my previous experience. She finally accepts the old license.
As she's looking at her monitor she asks for the doctor's affidavit stating I had GRS. I made a stab at bypassing that requirement and showed her the "forever be gendered female" statement on the court order. She said she'd have to check with her supervisor.
She came back and said they needed the affidavit or they could not change the gender.
"Okay, just put it through with the name change but leave the gender unchanged."
"We can't do that. It will get kicked out because you have a female name and a male gender. The system won't accept it."
"I just talked to my tax accountant and he told me I had to get the name to match the number before I can file my tax return. "
"Yes, that's true" she said.
"Okay, all of my earnings reported to the IRS have my new name with this social security number. I have to get that filed so the name and number match or I can't file my taxes."
"But we can't do it because you have a female name and a male marker."
"But I have to do it or I can't file my taxes."
"I know but if we submit it like this the system will kick it out."
Frustrated I said, "Let's just try to put this through as is. If SSA kicks it out at least I'll have documentation showing I tried to get the name and number to match and I'll let the tax guy worry about it."
So she agreed, processed my application then showed me the gender marker was still male.
Lesson learned: In our patriarchal society, it's what's between your legs that defines you, not your presentation, not your self identity, not whats in your brain.
Once I get the money for GRS and get that affidavit, you can bet I'll be flashing that all over town! "EXTRA, EXTRA, Read all about it!" :eusa_wall:
Julie
sorry but this is the load of bullcrap i'm expecting to hear in the great old state of Transphobia, is that where you are too Julie?
Women Ask Court to Order New Illinois Birth Certificates Following Sex Reassignment Surgery Abroad
http://www.aclu-il.org/ (http://www.aclu-il.org/)
Last July, after my legal name change, I went to the SSA and they accepted my California DL with my new name and photo as ID. California allows the DL to be changed with just a form and a doctors letter indicating that the process of gender change is underway. It allows the female designation immediately and name change on the DL without a court order. Further they gave me my old DL with a hole punched in the exp date. I never had to use the old one.
Then the clerk looked at my court order, entered the info including the case number and my name was changed. She had the court order that gave my old name (which matched the SSA records) and new name. I showed a valid Photo ID. So the clerk had the complete linkage of my identity and their records.
I asked her to change the gender marker to female and she tried but the software asked for evidence of a surgeon's letter for gender reassignment surgery. She told me to come back with the letter after surgery and she would change the marker. Other than that, there was no talk about my mismatching female name and gender.
In two weeks, I received a letter from the SSA with my new SS card and new name.
I think that Julie was given the runaround by clerks who were deliberately trying to cause trouble. Clearly one can have a female name and a male marker. I happened for me six months ago.
Well, the new card came today with my legal name. Hmmmmmmm.... 8)
Julie
This thread has been most helpful. I go Monday to take the second step in my name change. Its supposed to take about two months for all to be said and done. This thread has given me some pitfalls to look out for. I'll let you all know how it goes here in Indiana.
I just returned from the SSA with my gender change complete. They accepted the letter from my doctor. Over the weekend, I received my new birth certificate from PA with my new legal name and gender.
Maggie
Julie,
I just saw this. What a bunch or crap!
Is there a different office you could go to and get a different clerk? It seems that the power of enforcement varies from one clerk to another. Pick a guy and use that hot smile of yours, put on your best feminine charm. Surely you can do it.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi