Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Discuss!

Sure, men can be feminists too.

Z

My mom wants me to be a feminist, but it just isn't in me. Sure, I believe in equal rights, for absolutely everyone--why would I label myself a feminist? I've got no problem with them, and I do believe that feminism has a place with FtMs (how could it not, when we've lived as females?), but it ain't for me, personally.

Yes. I think we're in a unique position to understand sexism against women and the need for feminine empowerment. We know what it is to walk the world as 'women'.

What? There's some "rule" that men aren't "true" men if they are feminists?

Although I do think that men should sometimes be excluded from womyn-space. That would include FTMs.

Nichole

I am MTF and not a feminist. Sure man can be a feminist too. Be sure that you do not forget the other side of equality.

Quote from: Nero on February 16, 2009, 09:45:09 AM
Yes. I think we're in a unique position to understand sexism against women and the need for feminine empowerment. We know what it is to walk the world as 'women'.

Exactly! :)

One thing I dislike about the term "feminist" is that it has so many meanings now and such negative connotations--and such specific connotations to some people when they apply it to one sex or the other.

But anyway, I'm a humanist.

As a woman, I have never really seen it as a battle between men & women anyway. But I think we're starting (in some cultures) to achieve balance. I think it's marvelous that men are starting to discover their "feminine" selves. Kind and caring men with the ability to nurture themselves and others is a major step forward in our civilization. Just like having self-reliant women is a social blessing for us all. Feminism is about the liberation of all people, not just one "side".

What Nero said.

Also, it's pretty disgusting to me how much misogyny there is within the FTM community. 

Emphatically yes!  I am generally considered to be a rabid feminist by all, and the prejudices which exist among men and women today are shameful (rant, rave!).

Another as important question would be: is there room for  masculinism in the MTF community?

'Masculinism'?  I'm not familiar with that specific term, but I see what you're getting at.  feminism exists because your so-called 'masculinism' runs the show.  So if you'd like to be a misogynist MTF and discriminate against yourself, have at it.

I was not talking about sovinism!!! You can read from wikipedia about masculinism.

Is there room for the civil rights movement in the white community?

Quote from: SomeMTF on February 16, 2009, 01:08:58 PM
I was not talking about sovinism!!! You can read from wikipedia about masculinism.

I looked it up and it's exactly what I thought it was. 

The advocacy of men's rights?  Come on. 

I think femenism is a good thing, as long as it doesn't get taken overbored. I've heard people say that if a man and a woman get into a fight and the man doesn't hit the woman back then he doesn't respect her....that's horse crap! Femenism should be about rights and empowerment, not about real differences between the sexes/genders. Besides, I wouldn't hit any girl, not even a huge body bulder type. If I got into it with a body builder I would turn and high tail my butt outa there!!!

Well, many innoccent boys are victims of violance and when they tell parents they punish them. In case we do not accept that males are humans as much as females  and deserve the same protection the speech about gender equality is irrelevant.

Quote from: SomeMTF on February 16, 2009, 02:20:56 PM
Well, many innoccent boys are victims of violance and when they tell parents they punish them. In case we do not accept that males are humans as much as females  and deserve the same protection the speech about gender equality is irrelevant.

What do you think feminism is about, SMTF? Beating up guys?

No one doubts that many young boys, and for that matter men, are abused as well as are women. Most feminists, I think, would agree that the most numerous and most harshly abused victims of the patriarchy are those males who do not conform to the stereotypes and the indoctrination.

That true, I don't see what your argument is about -- unless you simply are making assumptions based on a lack of familiarity with the texts and arguments of many feminists. Who, as Arch said above, often regard ourselves as "humanists" even more profoundly than we regard ourselves as "feminists."

But, I really don't think we need a strong movement that will see to the interests of males. Those sorts of things are almost invariably reactionary formations with reactionary arguments meant to provide red-herrings and straw-men to belabor critical renderings of the status quo. I'd have thought a political radical like yourself would see that.

Nichole

I've been a feminist for quite a few years now and was one of the factors that made it hard for me to come out as trans. Since how could I want to change something I was proud of being?

But yes for me, feminist means equality not superiority. I suppose why we use the term feminism is that its mostly a patriarchal world we live in... if it were matriarchal, it'd be masculism.

I am not very familiar with feminists's theories. I know that some have been anti-trans like Janice Raymond. In Sweden the leading feminist for example said that all men should pay extra tax because of family violance. (Women do about 40% of family violance)

Quote from: SomeMTF on February 16, 2009, 03:04:48 PM
I am not very familiar with feminists's theories. I know that some have been anti-trans like Janice Raymond.

Exactly, so perhaps some further education wouldn't be amiss? Sound bites seldom capture the essence of what anyone says or writes. They are not made with care for nuance and context.

Nichole

Quote from: Mister on February 16, 2009, 12:01:27 PM
Also, it's pretty disgusting to me how much misogyny there is within the FTM community.

Mister, could you elaborate? Perhaps different FTM "communities" are much less misogynistic than others.

I was very misogynistic as a young adult and had to work hard at not being so. Even my brief flirtation with bisexuality was misogynistic, as I only saw women as objects. Oddly enough, this was a step forward for me. And I kept on moving forward.

I think it's natural for a lot of FTMs to have some degree of misogynistic feeling and a desire to distance ourselves from women. So many of us were seen as women when we didn't consider ourselves to be women. So we resent the company we're thrown into, and we hate ourselves because we know we're not really women--but everyone sees us as women...it gets pretty messy.

But I should think that most of us would work this out in therapy or on our own. If we have any true misogyny, it should be a temporary condition that sprang up as a result of the cruel circumstances that life and society have imposed upon us.

I don't hate women, although there are quite a few aspects of women, ways of thinking that seem overwhelmingly female, that I still don't understand. And I support equal rights for all genders. But I do tend to distrust women more than I do men; I take longer to let them in; and I don't really have any female friends, only acquaintances.

I suppose a lot of this comes from the reasons I was detailing above; but in my case, I also have some serious mommy issues to work through in therapy. I frequently have to remind myself that it's okay to trust individual women because, unlike Her, they haven't done anything bad to me yet. It can be a hard struggle, but I'm game.

P.S. I wonder, is there an equal degree of...misandrony (well, the term "misanthropy" doesn't work here) in the so-called MTF community?

Quote from: SomeMTF on February 16, 2009, 02:20:56 PM
Well, many innoccent boys are victims of violance and when they tell parents they punish them. In case we do not accept that males are humans as much as females  and deserve the same protection the speech about gender equality is irrelevant.

Please read Men are Not Cost Effective by June Stephenson.

I'm guessing you're projecting some of your personal experience here.

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Post Merge: February 16, 2009, 05:16:04 PM

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QuoteMister, could you elaborate? Perhaps different FTM "communities" are much less misogynistic than others.

Gladly.

I say within the community because it's absolutely individuals, not the community as a whole.  As FTMs, we were raised female.  We have no excuse for sexist behavior.  But I think in an effort to be hypermasculine and distance oneself from the feminine, some FTMs get downright misogynistic.

Example- I was at a talk that Dr. Miro gave here in San Francisco about 1 month ago.  A straight ID'd FTM asked Miro, "Can you make my cock big enough to make my woman gag?"

Clearly, there is a lot wrong with this statement and this dude seems to have forgotten where he came from.  It's a shame, really, considering this guy is about 6 months on T and still awaiting his surgery.  He's forgotten that his bound breasts make him an object, not a person, and even worse he's perpetuating that cycle of patriarchal BS on his girlfriend. 

Hopefully she sees the light and leaves him.

Quote from: Mister on February 16, 2009, 05:06:27 PM


Example- I was at a talk that Dr. Miro gave here in San Francisco about 1 month ago.  A straight ID'd FTM asked Miro, "Can you make my cock big enough to make my woman gag?"

thats just gross to say in a professional setting (though some people do that kind of crap for the lulz or whatever)

i think what SomeMTF is getting at is that in some places, feminism has become the new patriarchal misogyny (misandry, and yes there seems to be a lot of it in the MTF community, AndrewLC will attest to that  :P). masculinism is the idea, much like feminism, that men should not have to be more like women to be respected in society. in other words, men should be proud of being men, embrace all that that means, and respect other people the same way. throwing the balance off too far in either direction leads to a lot of unhappy, unfulfilled people.

that's not to say masculinism is the same as your average macho womanizing jerk, far from it. the key word here is MAN, not guy, dude, bro, or boy. i think what feminism tries to be but fails a lot of times in practice, is a movement about liberation, self fulfillment, and ultimately respect for diversity.  this diversity should embrace the individual's masculinity, femininity AND any other gender expression you can think of, not glorifying one or the other.

Quotethats just gross to say in a professional setting (though some people do that kind of crap for the lulz or whatever)

that's gross to say in any setting.  also, this was not FTM-only space.  there were partners of FTMs present, as well as the 60 or 70something year old former professor of Miro's.  Do you think that guy wanted to see his former protege being grilled on whether or not he could induce gagging?

i was agreeing with you o_O maybe i'm misreading but it looks like you thought i was siding with Mr. Cocky LOL

I got that, drain.  your mention of a 'professional setting' brought out extra RAEG at the event.

gotcha. i dont post on forums a lot so.....yeah. there's always gotta be one like that. so annoying

Quote from: Arch on February 16, 2009, 11:29:11 AM
One thing I dislike about the term "feminist" is that it has so many meanings now and such negative connotations--and such specific connotations to some people when they apply it to one sex or the other.

But anyway, I'm a humanist.

Yeah, this. I don't like the term "feminist" because of the negative connotations; people always think of self-righteous men-hating lesbians lol. I don't think women are the "better sex", I don't think men are either. I'm for equality of all people; if that labels me as a feminist I'll accept that

Why not?  Some of the most out spoken feminists I know, personally, are men. 

Janet

Quote from: SomeMTF on February 16, 2009, 02:20:56 PM
Well, many innoccent boys are victims of violance and when they tell parents they punish them. In case we do not accept that males are humans as much as females  and deserve the same protection the speech about gender equality is irrelevant.

That is seriously the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. I don't believe so-called masculinism has ANY place in any community, let alone a female one.

Quote from: SisterGirlfriend on February 16, 2009, 10:28:23 PM
That is seriously the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. I don't believe so-called masculinism has ANY place in any community, let alone a female one.

misandry ^

Quote from: DRAIN on February 16, 2009, 10:59:02 PM
misandry ^

OK, might we substitute reasonable discussion for labeling and name-calling, please?

Attaching a label to someone doesn't make their pov or argument wrong. It simply attaches a label to it which may not even be appropriate to what they are saying.

It would have been nice if she had fleshed out her reasoning somewhat, but she didn't. Calling her a name doesn't flesh out anything either.

Nichole

sure- i definitely know some guys who are feminists. i'm still a feminist.

Quote from: Nichole on February 16, 2009, 11:32:08 PM
OK, might we substitute reasonable discussion for labeling and name-calling, please?

Attaching a label to someone doesn't make their pov or argument wrong. It simply attaches a label to it which may not even be appropriate to what they are saying.

It would have been nice if she had fleshed out her reasoning somewhat, but she didn't. Calling her a name doesn't flesh out anything either.

Nichole

I refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the power class's struggle against the weaker class. masculinism is a ridiculous notion. It isn't needed in the least. Measuring the "oppression" of men against the oppression of women obscures the real issue - men's oppression against women. Any legitimate claim held by men's rights activists are already addressed by feminism.

Quote from: SisterGirlfriend on February 17, 2009, 12:16:21 PM
I refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the power class's struggle against the weaker class. masculinism is a ridiculous notion. It isn't needed in the least. Measuring the "oppression" of men against the oppression of women obscures the real issue - men's oppression against women. Any legitimate claim held by men's rights activists are already addressed by feminism.

OK, that fleshed out her comment quite well, no? And I totally agree.

The "masculinism" idea is kinda like the Iron-John movement! :) Ya know, that men need spirtuality as well thang begun by Robert Bly back in the 90s.

Or its like the reverse racism shade whereby white folk are treated horribly unfairly by a system that isn't "color-blind" now -- while we conveniently forget that nothing is ever "color-blind" and sure as heck hasn't been to date. Now we suddenly want "color-blindness" as though nothing ever happened of a racialist nature over the past 400 years. "O, let's just erase all that and start from scratch."

That's all well and good until you realize that "scratch" for some is about 50 meters down the track prior to the beginning of the 100 meter dash!! There they stand in all their suited glory chatting about the horrid way they are treated and about the obvious superiority they display when they manage to eke out victory after victory with a "mere" 50 meter head-start. :)

Yep, I think she fleshed that out very well indeed. :)

Nichole

Quote from: SisterGirlfriend on February 17, 2009, 12:16:21 PM
Any legitimate claim held by men's rights activists are already addressed by feminism.

This is not true. At least for many feminist.

yeah the iron john movement. and i wasn't calling her a misandrist, i was calling her comment misandRY. big difference.

i don't think the real issue is men oppressing women, it's anyone oppressing anyone regardless of WHY. sticking to masculinism vs feminism and things like that creates more of a divide in the issue rather than getting rid of it. kinda like if there wasn't such a hard lined binary in gender and gender roles, a lot of us wouldn't face so much discrimination over being transgender.

I do not follow any dogmatical ideology. I was nearly only liberal against genderpart of Fair Pair Act of 2009 in some political website. I think independently.

Quote from: DRAIN on February 17, 2009, 01:15:16 PM
yeah the iron john movement. and i wasn't calling her a misandrist, i was calling her comment misandRY. big difference.

i don't think the real issue is men oppressing women, it's anyone oppressing anyone regardless of WHY. sticking to masculinism vs feminism and things like that creates more of a divide in the issue rather than getting rid of it. kinda like if there wasn't such a hard lined binary in gender and gender roles, a lot of us wouldn't face so much discrimination over being transgender.

'scuse me? Forget Iron-John and lets go to the racialist thang. Like I said it's all well and good to promote equality for all while ignoring the historical aspect of the matter that places the start-lines in a staggered fashion on a straightaway!!

I'm not saying guys should be treated like pariahs, but doncha think it's pretty lame calling out the woman who gets beat-down regularly by her husband "vicious" or "man-hating" for calling him a bastard?

And please don't play the "technical" card of saying that calling someone's words "misandry" is not indicating that they would be a "misandrist" if they used "misandrogynous" tropes. :)

Owning up is definitely a two-way street.

Nichole

Quote from: DRAIN on February 17, 2009, 01:15:16 PM
yeah the iron john movement. and i wasn't calling her a misandrist, i was calling her comment misandRY. big difference.

i don't think the real issue is men oppressing women, it's anyone oppressing anyone regardless of WHY. sticking to masculinism vs feminism and things like that creates more of a divide in the issue rather than getting rid of it. kinda like if there wasn't such a hard lined binary in gender and gender roles, a lot of us wouldn't face so much discrimination over being transgender.

I don't think the real issue is Christians oppressing Jews, it's anyone oppressing anyone regardless of WHY.
I don't think the real issue is white people oppressing black people, it's anyone oppressing anyone regardless of WHY.
I don't think the real issue is straight people oppressing gay people, it's anyone oppressing anyone regardless of WHY.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Everyone suffers in an oppressive society, but the root isn't oppression in general, but one specific group oppressing another. The oppression creates those hard binaries, even while it denies their significance (e.g. "separate but equal"; "some of my best friends are..."; "not that there's anything wrong with that"). The resistance (racial civil rights, women's rights, gay rights) is what breaks them down, by first recognizing their significance.

Quote from: Nichole on February 17, 2009, 01:23:22 PM
I'm not saying guys should be treated like pariahs, but doncha think it's pretty lame calling out the woman who gets beat-down regularly by her husband "vicious" or "man-hating" for calling him a bastard?

i'm not. i'm calling out the woman that thinks because one man was like that, all of them are.

i dont know the politics of all of this, so all i'm saying is what i see. i can't argue this anymore cuz i'm not expressing myself well enough.

I thought I'd add my idea to the original topic.

I think that, yes, there is room for 'feminists' in the FTM community.

However, I also wanted to say what I think about 'feminism'. I agree that feminism is needed in some places, but I also want to acknowledge a human's tendency to over-correct on these matters. The women are fighting for rights, and those rights have been won. Now, they fight to make sure it stays that way and so that women are really treated equally. But here comes the over-correction: if the women are fighting so hard to be 'empowered', pretty soon they will overpower the men. We are trying to achieve balance, and so, if people give too much power to the feminists, we will throw ourselves out of balance again. Although, I don't think we are in danger of this happening just yet.

And I agree, I am more of a humanist than a feminist. I think everyone should be equal, regardless of sex, race, orientation, gender identity, disabilities, etc. We should all be treated fairly and equally, so that everyone feels that they have a place and that they get what they deserve.