I wandered over here from the MTF areas of the boards.. Hi everyone!
I decided to post here because I wanted some feedback on this... I've had constant feelings that I "should have been a girl/something's not right with being a boy" since an early age, and I'm seriously considering the male-to-female transition (family issues are the main thing holding me back). I've also had a long history of dating transpeople (both mtf and ftm, at all stages of transition).
However, there's so many ways that I don't fit the "traditional" MtF TS mold, whatever that is. I don't have much desire to dress in the clothes of my "target gender," I'm pretty ambivalent about my male genitals, etc... The thing I want the most right now is HRT (which I'm about a month's worth of therapy away from being accepted for). I want the physical and mental changes female hormones bring.. but even if/when I start HRT, I plan to keep presenting myself to society as "male" for a while.
This is what has brought me over here to the androgyny boards though: I think there's a possibility I might end up in that "middle" area.. on hormones, but not transitioning to living/presenting as a female. Does that mean I'm not truly transgendered? Am I something else?
I clearly have some things to work out in therapy, huh?
Who knows what it means, but you're very welcome to hang around these boards and work it out. Even if you decide there is no androgyne there at all, yer still welcome...can get a little empty here in the middle.
You don't have to be a stereotypically girly girl to be trans, at least I think that's what you meant
That's totally true, and if/when I transition, I imagine I'll be a tomboyish, geeky sort of gal.. but I think my questions are more deeply seated than that. I'm still working things out, obviously.
If you do decide to start hormones and then end up not liking it, no harm done, easy enough to stop. Nothing ventured, nothing gained ;D
I hope you get to be a stereotypical yourself.
Also, welcome, we have moon cookies, secret companies, and oddly gendered unicorns.
I believe you might like it in here.
Probably a good thing to mention in therapy. After all, they are being paid to discuss your personal conflicts and issues in life.
Quote from: Jeatyn on February 18, 2009, 08:55:18 AM
You don't have to be a stereotypically girly girl to be trans, at least I think that's what you meant
Very true but sadly there aren't very many people like us who feel that way...
It shouldn't, but all that stereotyping of gender roles really winds me up.
Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on February 18, 2009, 09:09:37 AM
Also, welcome, we have moon cookies, secret companies, and oddly gendered unicorns.
I believe you might like it in here.
You have cookies AND unicorns?!
I wanna be androgyne now! :)
Back to the subject, there's nothing wrong with being a tomboy TS. Actually there's nothing wrong with being anything aslong as you're happy and healthy. Don't do anything you're not comfortable with, honey. I was in a middle area for a while too, but the other way around (transitioning but without hormones or medical stuff) so I say if it feels good for you then go for it! :)
Totally agree with the Tomboy TS business, always been so and always will be.
The secret is to be oneself, may take a while getting there but never let others force you where you don't want to go.
Hey, how do i add my gender in my profile on this site? Can't find the link in "profile"...
If you go into your profile, you will see a tab that says 'modify profile'. From this you can go into your 'forum profile'. Within this there is a dropdown box to select Male or Female or you can leave it blank. The only other option is to make yourself a custom title.
Quote from: Nicky on February 18, 2009, 01:18:15 PM
If you go into your profile, you will see a tab that says 'modify profile'. From this you can go into your 'forum profile'. Within this there is a dropdown box to select Male or Female or you can leave it blank. The only other option is to make yourself a custom title.
oh i just noticed you and nearly everyone else in this section doesn't have that option ticked. duh. :eusa_doh:
Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on February 18, 2009, 09:09:37 AM
I hope you get to be a stereotypical yourself.
Also, welcome, we have moon cookies, secret companies, and oddly gendered unicorns.
I believe you might like it in here.
You forgot the fish and bacon :D
Welcome aboard, we get a little (well, a lot) silly here at times, but we can be serious also.
In the beginning, it is often easier to just figure out things you want/are for sure and leave the rest undefined. Like "I want hormones and am not male" rather than "Should I get surgery? Am I a real girl? OMFG, I'm gonna hyperventilate." Yeah, easier said than done. But it actually is easier to contemplate in a difficult to transition in situation, because if you're 20 with no relationships or barriers, you'll be irritated that you're not doing anything, while if you're married (you) or a minor, you can take your time because you probably have to wait on your parents/spouse anyway.
Here's something to contemplate: If there were no exterior or mental barriers to presenting as female, but rather active encouragement, would you do it then? There is a difference between being comfortable with permanently satying in your current gender role and being hesitant about transitioning because it would be difficult.
Quote from: Nicky on February 18, 2009, 01:18:15 PM
If you go into your profile, you will see a tab that says 'modify profile'. From this you can go into your 'forum profile'. Within this there is a dropdown box to select Male or Female or you can leave it blank. The only other option is to make yourself a custom title.
Thanks Nicky, that was really thick of me! :)
Quote from: imaz on February 18, 2009, 02:09:07 PM
Thanks Nicky, that was really thick of me! :)
No worries, it is an easy thing to miss.
Howdy 'buckeye
For me, androgyne was the only option. Even though my body is an "outie", I never really felt male (and Lord knows I've never ever felt like a MAN...just considered myself a "guy"). So that left my only choice as female/woman, right? But that doesn't work either...as much as I WISH I were a woman, that isn't the case. When I discovered that just because I'm not one doesn't necessarily mean I HAVE to be the other, the clouds parted, the sun came out and the little birdies began to happily chirp and sing.
I guess what I am saying is that when I allowed myself the option of being neither male nor female, the peace and sense of freedom that came to me were (and still are) overwhelming.
So, take your time, search deeply and find who you really are.
And always remember, nobody said you can't change labels somewhere down the line if needed, and would you really listen to them if they did?
....L
Quote from: Laurry on February 18, 2009, 02:57:20 PM
When I discovered that just because I'm not one doesn't necessarily mean I HAVE to be the other, the clouds parted, the sun came out and the little birdies began to happily chirp and sing.
yep.
Quote from: mtfbuckeye on February 18, 2009, 03:13:50 PM
If it wasn't for my wife's "transition or family" ultimatum, I'd start HRT as soon as possible. If/when she softens her stance or I have to "transition or die," I'll start HRT. Beyond that, I'm not really sure where my path lies.
Someone asked "if there were no barriers, what would you do?" My gut-level answer is "I'd want to be a woman." However, I think my case is so infected with grey areas that I NEED that period of HRT while still presenting as male to figure out what the hell I need/want.
Does that make any sense?
I get that you love your wife and kids, but they're not the one who got to live in your body. Never make decisions like this for someone else.
Quote from: mtfbuckeye on February 18, 2009, 03:13:50 PM
If it wasn't for my wife's "transition or family" ultimatum, I'd start HRT as soon as possible. If/when she softens her stance or I have to "transition or die," I'll start HRT. Beyond that, I'm not really sure where my path lies.
Someone asked "if there were no barriers, what would you do?" My gut-level answer is "I'd want to be a woman." However, I think my case is so infected with grey areas that I NEED that period of HRT while still presenting as male to figure out what the hell I need/want.
Does that make any sense?
It does not sound like things are all that grey. You want to be the woman you are (however that many be), and your wife does not want you to (or really does not want you to become her image of what you would become).
Have you thought of getting a good counsellor and get them to help you sort your stuff out with the wife? This seems to be the main issue in your life at the moment.
It could be you come to the mutual realisation that you can't continue as a couple. I don't think siting about hoping she will 'soften' will work. I tried it for 9 years, nothing changes. While you wait your issues will end up poisoning things anyway. You need to get it out and talked about. If it does come down to splitting up you want things to be out in the open and as amicable as possible so that managing the shared childcare works for both of you.
This is largely just a gut feeling here, so highly likely to be wrong... but do you suppose it's possible that, perhaps subconsciously, part of you may be actually relying on your wife's resistance, and using it as a shield against your own fears... an internal justification for not taking action?
Quote from: mtfbuckeye on February 18, 2009, 03:13:50 PM
If it wasn't for my wife's "transition or family" ultimatum, I'd start HRT as soon as possible. If/when she softens her stance or I have to "transition or die," I'll start HRT. Beyond that, I'm not really sure where my path lies.
Someone asked "if there were no barriers, what would you do?" My gut-level answer is "I'd want to be a woman." However, I think my case is so infected with grey areas that I NEED that period of HRT while still presenting as male to figure out what the hell I need/want.
Does that make any sense?
I'd follow the gut level answer and see where it takes you.
If you plan to keep presenting as male, be advised though that being on hormones will slowly but surely erase the male in your features and people will start ma'aming you and referring to you as a female. This creates some... weird situations (I had to keep a weak male pretense at work for about two years after starting HRT). As you well know also, you will lose your fertility forever at around 6-9 months. For some people having biological kids is a big deal (in your case,
more kids)
HRT is a pretty big deal, but not so that you shouldn't try it if you feel that it will make you happy. Body dysphoria is a supreme bitch.
Thanks for clearing that up, cause it sounded like everything was 'shut up shop and hope for the best'.
It sounds like you are taking a good approach. I remember last year it did seem like you were diving head first into it and I remember thinking that you might be headed for a bit of a wreck. I think it is a good idea to slow down and try to bring your wife along with you. It would be good to be clear to your wife that at some point you will want to change.
I think this topic was more about the grey areas and we could move on and talk more about those if you want?
What I am hearing from you from your first post is your image of what a woman should be like does not quite match the image of who you are? Would that be fair to say? Just something I wanted to note incase you were not aware of it is that androgynes (or other non-binaries) are transgendered too and we can also be transexual.
I've never seen any reason why being trans and being androgyne should necessarily be exclusive of one another.
Quote from: KYLYKaHYT on February 18, 2009, 06:54:11 PM
I've never seen any reason why being trans and being androgyne should necessarily be exclusive of one another.
I think whats implied in this case is binary transsexual (HBS) vs non-binary transsexual or non-binary non-op
I don't really have anything to add other than if you do get to transition in any way, taking baby steps will help you find what is comfortable for you, what feels right, etc. You'll be able to discover how far you want to go that way. If you dive in head first, you might end up going to far. At least that's how I work, generally. :)
Quote from: mtfbuckeye on February 18, 2009, 09:26:21 PM
I don't mind the idea of being a tomboyish woman.. I just worry that somehow I'm not "trans enough."
-I enjoy sex with women (natal and TG) as a man
-I have a lot of traditionally male interests
-I've kept my beard because I feel like as a man I look better with it
-I've never gotten a lot of enjoyment out of dressing as my "target gender," and the few times I've been with men while dressed were unsatisfying
I could go on and on, but there's all this evidence that is seemingly against the idea that I am a girl inside... Yet I can't shake the feeling that something just is "off" about me as a man... That my entire existence might be calmer and more content if I experienced it as a woman... Plus I've heard so many glowing accounts of the experience of HRT, and those physical and mental changes sound unanimously appealing to me...
I'm a mess, huh?
I think that a lot of us are quite familiar with what you describe. Not quite a boy, but not quite a girl either. Somewhere in between the two. It can be frustrating, or it can be liberating.
Take the time you need to decide what you really want to do.
You sometimes have to sit yourself down and weigh the pros and cons of of androgyne or mtf. You sit and ask yourself "do I want breast?" "do I still want to grow a beard?" "why is my foot cold?"
It'll either be a quick decision or a long one. I went through something similar like this during my teenage years. It's not easy until you are sure of yourself and your decision.
It sounds like you're looking for a path through you're own thoughts. You're thoughts are trying to divide their attention between you're gut gender feeling and you're doubts. Ideally, you would like to find a solution that harmonizes both of these trains of thought into a crystal clear answer to your problems.
It would be much easier for you to have this answer so you could decide what plan of action to take on these matters. The likelihood of you finding this answer by logical debate alone is slim. It would benefit you to take some action on this matter and find out how it makes you feel other than meditate on how you think it would make you feel.
Cast away all of your doubts and fears. Do what comes naturally and these answers will come to you.
Quote from: riven_one on February 18, 2009, 11:24:18 PM
I think that a lot of us are quite familiar with what you describe. Not quite a boy, but not quite a girl either. Somewhere in between the two. It can be frustrating, or it can be liberating.
Take the time you need to decide what you really want to do.
Indeed. Our experiences and feelings force us to abandon the safe confines of our physical birth sex and into a wider world. Some of us have a destination in mind, some of us just need to walk.
Quote from: mtfbuckeye on February 18, 2009, 09:26:21 PM
I don't mind the idea of being a tomboyish woman.. I just worry that somehow I'm not "trans enough."
-I enjoy sex with women (natal and TG) as a man
-I have a lot of traditionally male interests
-I've kept my beard because I feel like as a man I look better with it
-I've never gotten a lot of enjoyment out of dressing as my "target gender," and the few times I've been with men while dressed were unsatisfying
I could go on and on, but there's all this evidence that is seemingly against the idea that I am a girl inside... Yet I can't shake the feeling that something just is "off" about me as a man... That my entire existence might be calmer and more content if I experienced it as a woman... Plus I've heard so many glowing accounts of the experience of HRT, and those physical and mental changes sound unanimously appealing to me...
I'm a mess, huh?
I have many of these traits (albeit in reverse): I wear women's clothes, have long hair, no desire for facial hair, stereotypically female interests (knitting, fashion), etc. None of this prevents me from being male, so your traits do not make you a nonfemale. Also, remember that transition doesn't have to be all or nothing. You could go on HRT but forgo surgery and hair removal, or some other combination, or do nothing, or do everything. I think you already know this, but I love to hear myself type, so I decided to put that out there
I'm writing to register the minority opinion, though in my case I lack most male interests. My wife and I live together with a certain amount of role reversal. She's the bread winner; I cook and she just called me upstairs to clean for a book discussion meeting she's holding tonight. So, I will continue when I am again at liberty.
S
Surprisingly, so aren't a lot of GGs.
In my Transgender Studies Reader the is a piece written by Bernica Hausman mentioning how TS study and learn exactly what to say to therapists, through reading biographies of other's experiences many times even before going to a therapists. In that many times they "lie" or are skewed because they already know what works, and how to achieve SRS. And therapists therefore more often come in contact with seemingly ultra-feminine/masculine TS. Although after post-op such ultra-femininity/masculinity decreases for many.
If this is true, which TS may or may not agree, it could explain some of the apparent perception of ultra-gender.
Quote from: mtfbuckeye on February 19, 2009, 05:54:29 PM
It's just that I'm not as "uniformly" feminine as a lot of other transwomen.
I think you should just go with what works for you and not pay attention to any stereotypes. If you feel like a woman, you are a woman. There aren't any true definitions of what makes a woman. Only you know what you are, so have confidence in yourself and honor your feelings. :)
tomboyish~!That's cool!! I mean ,you never choose to get totally feminine beCUZ your special situation,but make a choice of being a female with a little tomboyish~!Being cool & hot at the same time !Awesome!!Love your style~!!
OK, where was I. Oh, I was writing to express a minority opinion. I do think that it is important for me to be myself/for you to be yourself. I also think human life is about relationships. I've been here for a year, wrestling with the inner reality that who I am does not match my body. In that time, I have come to the conclusion that if I can express my inner self within the relationships I have worked hard to build and maintain, I will have the greatest chance for fulfillment and happiness.
If you are in a relationship, where your partner cannot respect and accept you as you are, get out--regardless of whether you transition. I say that from experience, being in my second marriage.
I feel free, when we are looking at dresses, and my wife asks: "What do you think of this?" to ask in return: "For me or for you?" Unfortunately, dresses look ugly on me, and no hormones will change that. I can dream, though. On the other hand, I don't have the body hair some complain about. My wife has asked more than once whether I shave my legs; I don't. Last night, I made penne with cauliflower, tomato, and olives. Tonight, a beef stirfry. My kitchen is relatively clean. My wife likes my body. There's a smile on my face.
Here's to smiles on all your faces,
S
Quote from: Simone Louise on February 25, 2009, 05:41:56 PM
Last night, I made penne with cauliflower, tomato, and olives. Tonight, a beef stirfry. My kitchen is relatively clean.
I want to come eat at your house! LOL..... 8)
Quote from: Simone Louise on February 25, 2009, 05:41:56 PM
OK, where was I. Oh, I was writing to express a minority opinion. I do think that it is important for me to be myself/for you to be yourself. I also think human life is about relationships. I've been here for a year, wrestling with the inner reality that who I am does not match my body. In that time, I have come to the conclusion that if I can express my inner self within the relationships I have worked hard to build and maintain, I will have the greatest chance for fulfillment and happiness.
If you are in a relationship, where your partner cannot respect and accept you as you are, get out--regardless of whether you transition. I say that from experience, being in my second marriage.
I feel free, when we are looking at dresses, and my wife asks: "What do you think of this?" to ask in return: "For me or for you?" Unfortunately, dresses look ugly on me, and no hormones will change that. I can dream, though. On the other hand, I don't have the body hair some complain about. My wife has asked more than once whether I shave my legs; I don't. Last night, I made penne with cauliflower, tomato, and olives. Tonight, a beef stirfry. My kitchen is relatively clean. My wife likes my body. There's a smile on my face.
Here's to smiles on all your faces,
S
if that's not wisdom then i'm a block of cheese
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 26, 2009, 11:32:07 AM
if that's not wisdom then i'm a block of cheese
I don't see why you can't have it both ways ;)
Quote from: Nicky on February 26, 2009, 01:11:03 PM
I don't see why you can't have it both ways ;)
Right on, except Pica is too modest. Not a block, he's the real thing, a wheel, the big cheese, welcome at anyone's supper table.
And Riven, dear, you would certainly be welcome at our table. Now that our daughter's away at college, there's usually more than enough food. Just call first. Tonight, for example, we'll be in Maine celebrating Mardi Gras.
Another option is our Hanukkah open house on a Sunday afternoon in December (except we skipped last year due to the death of my mother-in-law). We invite our friends of all faiths to bring their favorite holiday desserts. I spend the afternoon in the kitchen, making latkes in two skillets. I use one food processor to grate potatoes and another to chop onions. People eat the pancakes as fast as I can make them, and all make their way to my kitchen to spend a little time kibitzing. Just let me know you want to be on the invitation list.
And of course next month comes the requisite corned beef, cooked with the usual vegetables and glazed with a bourbon sauce. We will need guests to help eat that enormous meal. I've an Irish playlist on the iPod: Irish Rovers, Clancy Brothers, etc.
I do assure you, as long as all of you keep shipping UPS, I manage to keep my weight under control. I even lost a couple pounds this week.
Come and get it before I throw it away,
S
Don't feel bad there are many of us who do not fit in the molds society puts forth. I am 57 and have known since the age of 6 that while I was born male I should have been female. The simple solution would be to transition (sure) That won't work as I'm 6'4" and weigh 300 lbs. So as a result I am living a male role but female inside. My wife is somewhere between tolerant and accepting depending on the day of the week and her mood. If I were 5'7" or less I would have transitioned even if I made a ugly woman but at 6'4" it doesn't make sense. I have been castrated and on HRT which has made living my role easier but I'd still love to live full time as a female. I guess I say all this just so you don't feel that you're the only one out here. There are more of us than "Society" will ever know.