I have been trying to figure out my gender confusion. I've read a few references to the use of estrogen and the response to determine whether you are truly transexual or a crossdresser. Any opinions? Research?? Thanx
"Estrogen Provocation" sounds like a 70s badgirl exploitation movie :P
No, the way to determine what you are is to think, analyze, feel and be honest with yourself.
Sorry but there's no easy test, buckaroo...
Yeah, I would agree.
And using female hormones as a test for, I assume, MtF transsexuality seems to me akin to using a Geiger counter made from Plutonium to determine if something is radioactive.
they do not make you feel female if this is a result you seek to find out, you make yourself feel female or was in my case.
they just give you the parts you missed out on.
I'm not sure if I would agree that you make yourself feel female. Well I guess, there is stuff you can do on the outside, that are culturally female, but really I think it is just how things turn out. To really tell I think you have to stop thinking of male and female and transsexual and crossdresser and forget yourself for a little while. Have no expectations and see how you feel? Its all just labels, we are people, are you a man or a woman? Only you can tell that, and its okay to not be sure, in fact thats one of the beautiful things, who is sure? What is the difference anyways really? And then it doesn't even matter, you are yourself, for so long being trans distracted me from just being me, because it was such a change, I held onto it, it still is a part of me, but moreso is life.
btw I really like your sig Leiandra
Quote from: aisha on March 25, 2009, 10:46:18 PM
I'm not sure if I would agree that you make yourself feel female. Well I guess, there is stuff you can do on the outside, that are culturally female, but really I think it is just how things turn out. To really tell I think you have to stop thinking of male and female and transsexual and crossdresser and forget yourself for a little while. Have no expectations and see how you feel? Its all just labels, we are people, are you a man or a woman? Only you can tell that, and its okay to not be sure, in fact thats one of the beautiful things, who is sure? What is the difference anyways really? And then it doesn't even matter, you are yourself, for so long being trans distracted me from just being me, because it was such a change, I held onto it, it still is a part of me, but moreso is life.
btw I really like your sig Leiandra
my point was if you are indeed female on the inside no amount of estrogen is going to change that or give you something you are not
as a long time user i can assure you it has made me feel no different to how i always was.
My impression was always they give you the E to give you some relief form the termoil and let you refocus your end goals.
Estrogen would not make you feel like a woman unless you feel that way already. Making the choice to begin HRT is a step that should not be taken lightly.
Unless you want the permanent effects, don't start blindly. The best thing to do is to try living full time. I think that could tell you really quick.
And are you seeing a therapist?
Janet
Quote from: Janet Lynn on March 26, 2009, 01:05:57 PM
Estrogen would make you feel like a woman unless you feel that way already.
I disagree, Janet. I think the feeling like a woman is already inherent within one, if it's to exist at all. All estrogen can do is provide support for the feeling that's already there. It wouldn't create it where it had never been before. They forced estrogen on Alan Turing and the changes to his body bummed him out so much, he committed suicide. He was a man. But he was forced into involuntary transgender, which sucks possibly even more for the cisgender people than it does for us, because we got used to it growing up with it, but to suddenly have that imposed on you is a shock.
To be fair to Janet, I'm guessing that may be a typo.
You're very likely right about that.
OK senior moment. It has been modified. ;D
Being on estrogen doesn't make me feel female, whatever that might be, in fact some days I feel like a raging bull, but it does give me immense satisfaction to know that I've got a higher proportion of the stuff flowing round my body.
The theory was that if you took E, even a low dose it either made you feel more at peace and not much else changed or if you really aren't tg, then it eliminated your desires to xdress.
I've dressed on and off my whole life, but have recently been divorced. Since then I dress a lot, making up for lost time I guess.
I'm wondering if I've just "talked" myself into being TG, and wanting to continue my feminization....just looking for a way to find out.
As to permanent effects, not worried too much at this stage of my life....no more kids, will probably stay single, etc......thanx......Dennise
I don't see how this "feeling more at peace" theory would hold together. If you feel more correct with the estrogen and the effects it gives you, it's probably because you are in fact female. It's not going to do much of anything for clothing choices.
Of course, just because you want to wear (certain) female-designated clothing (at least sometimes) doesn't mean you are a woman. If you still feel like a man or feel gender-neutral but happen to like the clothing for particular merits, you may be an androgynous male or an androgyne.
It's ultimately up to figure out what is that you use such clothing for, but a gender therapist can offer professional help. This person can also help you undergo the changes you need if you are (in fact) a woman, even if you do not elect to undergo reassignment surgery.
After trying some pms estrogen and the otc breast pills. I compare myself from when I was on them and when I am off of them. I do beleive that they had an effect on me in a positive sense. I didn't neccessarily want to dress more, but I felt better about myself as a person. Calmer with myself in everyday strives.
When I started on estrogen I began to feel at peace within and the constant complaining in my head about something being wrong eased more as time went on. It seems to give the brain something its looking for. And no its not in my head. I think this is what they are referring to. People who turn out not to be GID don't feel right when they go on the estrogen and the stop. So it acts like a test.
Quote from: dennise51 on March 28, 2009, 07:12:40 PM
The theory was that if you took E, even a low dose it either made you feel more at peace and not much else changed or if you really aren't tg, then it eliminated your desires to xdress.
I've dressed on and off my whole life, but have recently been divorced. Since then I dress a lot, making up for lost time I guess.
I'm wondering if I've just "talked" myself into being TG, and wanting to continue my feminization....just looking for a way to find out.
As to permanent effects, not worried too much at this stage of my life....no more kids, will probably stay single, etc......thanx......Dennise
Dennise:
I too heard the references to the calming that occurred with the use of estrogen by "classic transsexuals". And the best I could find is that it was anecdotal to the other effects. In other words, many experienced a heightened sense of calm but it could not be definitely identified if it was an actual effect of the estrogen on the brain, or a placebo effect based on the knowledge that a person starting hormones were at last taking a positive step in their life.
I can say in my own case, however, I noticed a near immediate mental effect when I started HRT. I was plagued with clinical depression and virtually *any* emotion would lead to deep, black, suicidal depression. The only way I could control it was to have no emotions at all. However once I started HRT I found that I could have emotions and not fall into depression and I could even have "blue" days, but not become suicidal. For me it was a boon. And a clear indication that my brain NEEDED estrogen and that my path through transition became much clearer.
I too wondered if I had just talked myself into transitioning. But in retrospect, no, I did not, it was the best thing I have ever done.
In your case, if you haven't done so already, get yourself into therapy and from there discuss starting HRT. Most of the effects of HRT are reversible if stopped within the first twelve months or so and you would notice any mental effect very early on.
-Sandy
I know this is an old topic (and that I'm brand new here), but I wanted to ask something about "the ease of mind" some people perceive when starting on Oestrogen.
If this happened, how quickly did this happen? A question of days/weeks/months? Thank you.
Any "immediate" reaction of well being is purely in your mind. The idea of being on hrt feels good.
It takes a while for hormones to build in your system. Hormones are not the way to determine your gender, you know your gender first, then take hormones to help.
I have heard about using HRT as a "test" but my understanding of it was that it was the androgen blockers that was the "real" test. They reduce the libido. If the crossdressing tendencies were fetishes (sexually related) then they would go away on Spiro. The transexual would not be deterred by the loss of libido - hence the test.
Julie
You should have started a new thread but...meh whatever.
I felt the effects around day 3. A definite and certain calm and clarity is all I can explain it as.
I am in the HRT as a test camp.
I knew I had transgender feelings and ideation but I was not willing to transition until I knew I would react well to HRT. If I had a negative reaction to HRT there was no way I would have transitioned looking like I did.
I had a fabulous reaction to HRT, and the loss of libido while taxing on my relationship on occasion is no big deal to me.
Sevan also used HRT as a litmus test and found that testosterone helped alleviate a deep abiding depression ze had been in for years.
Anecdotal evidence does not replace hard science.
Do your own due diligence.
Quote from: Sephirah on February 18, 2009, 06:22:03 PM
And using female hormones as a test for, I assume, MtF transsexuality seems to me akin to using a Geiger counter made from Plutonium to determine if something is radioactive.
No, it's more like using a blow torch to test if your drinking ware is
really glass or just plastic. The real thing has a chance of surviving, but the plastic one will be ruined. Using estrogen to test your gender identity is dangerous.
Quote from: Hypatia on March 26, 2009, 02:05:29 PM
I disagree, Janet. I think the feeling like a woman is already inherent within one, if it's to exist at all.
I have yet to meet a cis-woman who will claim to know what it means to "feel like a woman."
E to " Make yourself feel female" hey...!?
If you born like one, YOU ALWAYS DID JUST FEEL LIKE THAT, female, or? So now how would you know any OTHER non-female feeling? You go tell.
I took my first E once the jig was up (epiphany, and all) and it stopped me climbing the walls.
If I go low on E these days I still get hit by GID one time.
Next, cross-dressing... Ah, that's a good one for me.
Look at so many females and what do you see? "Cross-dressing"? In pants, flats, t-shirts, etc.
My idjet shrink had the audacity to tell me (in writing, no less): I was not ENOUGH cross-dressing before my epiphany (had not ENOUGH fantasies, and what not, the ass)
So now for him I'm GID-NOS. My second shrink didn't agree and issued my "letter". Go figure.
There was no need to "cross-dress" maybe because I just felt femme all the time (and of course I did, all I knew!) - no need to put mini skirts, heels and frilly blouses.
If I'd LOOKED in body and face like a female I would have been dressed A OK like a lot of other girls (sometimes a bit flamboyant for a male, granted... and so?)
Now, can one use E for a trans test? Actually, maybe you can.
Take the stuff for 3 max 6 month and find out how you feel (if you even CARE to go on for THAT long!).
If you CD ~"only" (getting your kicks from your crossed attire), your libido going to pot, etc. you'll be glad to leave that E stuff well alone FOR SURE.
6 month max. is considered reversible and looking at my own 6 month physical development (front, back, face) I would agree IMHO. YMMV
Do we MtFs REALLY have to run about in skirts, heels, all femme female attire to prove being female by brain-gender? Come on, please give us a break!
GGs sure as heck do not have to do that a LONG time since ... post WWII.
Yet, if you feel like getting all dolled up, do it by all means so long you don't look dressed for clubbing in the day (CDs seem to like that, do they?). There are some tiny rules even for GGs dressing after all. Go out check.
Wanna break those rules? OK, go ahead and be called a ->-bleeped-<-, with or without E for testing, heehee.
My 2 cents :-)
Axelle
I waited before answering this thread. This subject hits home for me. I started the HRT for a bad prostate first, and the GID second. I thought that I will really go overboard with the femininity. 2 1/2 weeks in, the libido diminished. 2 months is when I notice that an emotional change had occurred, not towards femininity, but a calming. I did not expect this.
My answer to Estrogen Provocation is NO! It may enhance the feminine feelings you already have, but not form them. The physical changes to your body on this stuff goes more to enhance these feelings. That is happening to me after 8 months now.
Joelene
I wish I could find my sourse...(I need to start compiling information into one place)
There are doctors that use the HRT litmus test.
Any hormone altering drug will eventually effect how you feel about yourself. And whatever gender direction you take with the drugs will affect your thoughts about being in that gender.
I have no doubt HRT increased my "female feelings", my sense of self. I don't think I would have ever seriously considered transitioning if I never got on HRT. It's a VERY slippery slope.
I'm not saying someone content in their gender will do a 180, but if you're on the edge, HRT can push you over.
I, that's me, am very introspective, and becoming more and more effeminate wonder how I got this way and did I think myself into it and focus my natural estrogen which all sexes make some.
I know that in my deepest feelings I am a woman. I know that ever since puberty started I have been extremely embarrassed by my male physical reaction and secretions. When I was thirteen and wet dreams started, I tried to hide the secretions. When I experimented with myself I tried to hide the secretions.
I felt guilty and there short periods of depression and self loathing every time I secreted. I was self-conscious about the smell. Me I was alone in all of this, but I shared the bedroom with my brother, making me even more shy about it.
Messages from my environment were well mixed, my dad was sick in the hospital with cancer, and my mom, who was the youngest in her family, and who also had lost her mother when she was 12, didn't talk to me about what was happening at all.
As I mentioned before, I was extremely unaware about much of the social world around me outside of my head. I was almost autistic about it, meaning I was clueless. Deadwood was sin city and had a split personality about it.
Sin was its economy besides the Homestake Gold Mine in Lead three miles away. Ministers preaching about the evils and dangers of sin on Sunday were really just talking about the Saturday night before and not necessarily trying to terrorize the young about going through puberty.
I at the time, did not understand this, and I had a need to be right with God, so, a conservative morality struggle developed within me retarding my growth as a sexual being. I became an emotionally split female, like my mother, between being a free spirited sexual bar girl and a god fearing home bound motherly female.
But since I had male parts my femaleness kept hidden and steered the ship as I sailed through the rest of my life. I left Deadwood when I was thirteen, during puberty, when my mother found another man after my dad died. My step dad was more of a masculine physical presence (the though narrow minded German who had been uranium miner and carpenter, turned barber), while my father was more of a masculine social presence, he was the gambler, bartender, salesman, fun loving stern at times Irishman.
To survive I identified with female characters and silently and secretly packed away their styles, behaviors, mannerisms, and coping mechanisms.
As a child besides an occasional outdoor movie, movies and television were not a part of my life until I moved back to Deadwood in the third grade. My physical world was small and large and I mostly kept close to home.
By big and large I mean, the yard around my house was small and streets were small, but I lived near a field or mountain I could venture about on. Mountains are neat, if you go home was down. If you go up the gulch, turn around and you go home. The prairies are scarier. You go out in a circle and keep the house in sight and learn to tell direction by the sun and the run of the road.
The girl learning these rules can safely venture out, but when the pull of home came she could go home. I always had this female pull to home.
The main way the world outside came in was on the radio with news and music, the newspaper, and the short news reel at the movie house.
So having a male body and going through male puberty, what in my world turned me into a female? Social pressure was definitely against it happening for in my child's mind no real male would turn himself into a female. No male would ever think of it. Any real male would wrestle a grizzly bear and die before he became or even considered being a woman. Men had John Wayne, Tarzan, Davy Crockett.
Why was I Dale Evens, Marlyn Monroe, Lucille Ball, Liz Taylor. This was unheard of.
I don't see how I could have possibly thought myself female. My two dads were men you would want to model yourself after. Men were the dominate sex without question in the 1950s and 1960s, but in the areas I grew up in there were strong women you did not mess with and were their own people. Many women but not all women had to have a man to survive. Men could run around gamble, drink, womanize, and work when they pleased.
I had no reason to think myself into being a female. Yet I was and am one.
Well this is a long or short trip. How much, have I blocked out, or suppressed, or deny, I don't know. That's why I write like this. I am on a "walk about" in my past and hope that as I write, something new will occur to me. Or someone will write a response that will strike a memory.
When I grew up there this Dr. Phil culture of the right way or right kind of family did not exist. If there was a Dr. Phil type you had to go out of your way to get his advise, and it was probably only in some magazine. My mother was too busy reading the True Secret magazines, which were the Maury Shows of the 1950s or watching Soaps when we got TV. My dad read Micky Spaline detective novels.
You had a good home if the bills were paid, your family ate dinner together, your parents got drunk only on the week ends, you got nickels and dimes to buy what you needed, you had food, clothing, a bed to sleep in some toys, you got a good whippin, but only when you really did something wrong and you knew it, and when people got angry no one was seriously beaten up, the walls of the house were still standing, everyone was present and accounted for, no one was being buried in the back yard, and the police were not at your door. Did I cover anything??
I don't see how my world or myself made me a female with a male's body.
About 2 and a half years ago I began having really extreme depression and anxiety attacks that were driving me crazy and I felt an overwhelming urge to dress in a feminine fashion like I had in years past but repressed. But the dysphoria never went away and it was causing problems for me at home. I read somewhere that if one is really mtf transexual the use of Estrogen would give a good response and if not it would make the dysphoria deeper. So I began a regimene of diy estrogen use just to see what my reaction would be. Almost immediately I noticed a huge reduction in the dysphoria and I could concentrate, function happily, and life was very good. DO NOT DO THIS WITHOUT THE SUPERVISION OF A LICENSED PHYSICIAN!!!
Now I have been off the meds for a good while and am getting ready for new bloodwork. I am feeling nervous again and my ability to concentrate is beginning to deteriorate gradually. Whether or not this can be used as a litmus test for GID I can't say but I can say that I had a very positive response to it and intend to go back on it asap.
Randi
--I don't see how my world or myself made me a female with a male's body. ----
There are many mysteries with our biological bodies/minds. After many years into adulthood, I discovered that I have a prolactinoma that turned off my testosterone for all of my life and essentially gave me a space of feminine feeling all of my life. After taking bromocryptine (the cure) for two weeks, the male libido rose and tried to take over this "girl". I am still surviving in this very strange psychological milieu, knowing two internal psyches. - much love, michelle444
Quote from: jilledwards on May 03, 2009, 08:52:06 PM
People who turn out not to be GID don't feel right when they go on the estrogen and the stop. So it acts like a test.
Yes, this is the theory behind the oestrogen test, as you call it. Given that there are no concrete measures to determine GID I think it's better than nothing.
Going by personal experience, however, the outcome is not always helpful. I was "diagnosed" with GID and asked if I wanted to try HRT to see how I felt about it. I loved oestrogen, as it turned out, but it hasn't helped me decide whether I want to fully transition (though I suspect that I'm gender fluid and prefer to fluctuate). But while there was no eureka moment for me there might be for others. Some people who are otherwise unsure which way to jump may turn out to be completely averse to HRT, which, in my opinion, is a result of sorts. At worst, an oestrogen test will leave some people (like me) just as confused as when they started their journey of gender discovery. At best, it may demonstrate to some people that HRT and transition is not for them.
HRT as a diagnostic tool worked for both me and my spouse.
It may not be a tool for every case, but it is in many.
Quote from: Lori2000ma on July 22, 2011, 02:15:32 PM
I have heard about using HRT as a "test" but my understanding of it was that it was the androgen blockers that was the "real" test. They reduce the libido. If the crossdressing tendencies were fetishes (sexually related) then they would go away on Spiro. The transexual would not be deterred by the loss of libido - hence the test.
Julie
Hi ,
I don't know about that
until yesterday I would have been agree
but yesterday I found some articles about transvestic fetishism , and it seems that is more complex than being sexually aroused by the clothes .
I really want myself to be a woman
but yesterday was one of the worst days ever , when I found those things
that you could have behavioral fetishes and so on
For me , I started HRT with estrogen and androgen blockers on 18th of January this year , I don't have any libido at all and it doesn't bother me (which Is a big deal since before hrt my whole life was about sex) . I am ok with no sexual libido , although I have some pleasure/desire thinking of sexual acts there is no physical response , only a mental pleasure different from the ones I experienced before ) , and I feel very good about getting a better feminine body (i don't know if it is the rush of getting something new , a challenge , some activity to get out from my boring life , an icon of the new life i want to start)
A problem would be that I had/have no hate on my male body , it wasn't very hairy , bulky or something like that but I had and still have some muscles , I don't know If it is a personality trait of me liking muscles , if it is the habit since the days I had to have muscle to be cool and a sex symbol , me getting used to that look for some years , or that i am not a girl - if i were one i would have hate a male body , or anything else , but clearly is a masculine feature for a person no matter the gender
However the idea is that those studies and classifications induced me the thoughts that I could be a ->-bleeped-<- even though I do not crossdress for direct sexual gratification , or maybe I am not aware that all the feminization of the body and mind is to be attractive as a girl and that implies also a sexual fetish
Another factor is that i am a very erotic person , with lots of pleasures and an open mind , so i have lots of 'fetishes' ,like the society calls them , so that make it easy to seem that the feminity is just a fetish not a reality , The worst part is that makes sense for me , seem possible and i hate that .
But if traits that describe out way to be (even if they are learnt / acquired ) are called fetishes maybe it is not bad that my femininity is a 'fetish' - that is just me , a trait of mine .
I just hope their theories and point of views were wrong.
Also they said that the fetish could develop into a gender dysphoria (and that is both good and bad for me , I want to be a real girl , not only a crossdresser , but the 'man made' gender dysphoria , especially one resulted from sexual fetishes ,doesn't sound as respectable/genuine as a real one)
It seem that no matter how hard I want , all the science prove that I am not as much of girl as others
I would like seeing a therapist , but I don't 'trust' them : if I can't understand myself , how could they really understand me. They would observe form an image and classify me in a category by my 'output ' opinions , description of self , but those vary a lot depending on my approach on self , by the knowledge and experiences i have .
I also tend not to trust those gender tests , especially that because of my personality , I tend to alter the real results of the test by knowing that is a test and , including at an unconscious level , altering the responses .
The only way I believe they could help me is encouraging me in transition and inducing me that I am a girl .
Also I tend to act in a way , because I don't interact with people too much (in fact , I don't interact at all with other people for days ) when I will see a therapist I will try to 'be' somehow : either I will try to behave in a more feminine way , either I will tend to show some masculine features from different reasons : if the therapist is a woman (as I like girls sometime , and I was misleaded that for getting a girl attention you have to be masculine)
as a response of some interactions : when I feel threatened , embarrassed .. (i think the pressure from the society and the universal 'normality' made me inhibit crying , especially in front of girls , although i feel like crying very often , in many situations ).
That is why I prefer an online therapy , with someone I don't know nothing about , including the 'gender'
Claudia_FF,
Did that stuff you read happen to have a by line by Anne Lawrence, Baily or Blanchard?
Many of us in the T community are of the opinion that the opinions offered by that trio are bunk science.
Consider this for a minute:
Is it possible that during sex, women enjoy being women and the expression of their gender?
Of course they do.
Would you think it odd for a natal woman to get dressed up in sexy things and feel sexy and perhaps get turned on and desire sex?
Of course not. But why is it paraphilia for a T girl to have a similar experience?
There is this false narrative out there that we should not be sexual. That somehow sexuality can somehow invalidate a persons desire to transition.
Screw that noise. I am not a highly sexual person but I can assure you that there is a sexual component to my transition. How the hell could there not be?! You change everything about your life and body, it stands to reason there may be a transition in sexuality.
Another thing to mull over....
If you give an animal an artificially high testosterone level they will become very sexually aggressive and constantly horny. Now let us consider that the TS woman has a female brain, now add to that female brain a testosterone level about 10-15 times higher than it is natural for a woman to have. What do we think might be a result? Hyper/aggressive sexuality perhaps? Add into that sentience and it isn't any wonder that some paraphilia might manifest?