Ok, the 'special and blessed trans' topic was locked for 'looking like it might involve differeing opinions. Aside from my view of that, which is irrelevant, i think the topic needs to be discussed.
Some groups belive that women who transition must identify as trans women, or transsexual women. because they are....
some groups, feel that thier identity came about before they transitioned, and irrespective of transition, they are that... female. Now this can work for f2ms too, but ive never seen this much identity argument from those guys... this seems mutually exclusive to m2fs....
I'd like to use this topic as a discussion of this subject: Identity...
I implore posters to maintain civility, we do not want this topic locked, because i for one would REALLY like to get a solid answer/ conclusion for once.... I would also ask that the moderating team please use thier best judgement, not 'well it may become a flame war'. I think this needs to be discussed once and for all.... to get it out of the way.
My own personal view, is that I have never been a man, or a transsexual... i was born a woman, i transitioned my body. I have a female mind, and a female body... whats trans there?
I hope this topic bears fruit.
Has three years of "discussing" this made an ounce of difference to anyone? Not that I have yet to read, Rach. We struggle. We find the best ways for ourselves or ways we hope are best for ourselves.
That fact alone means that no amount of discussion is gonna get us to come to a "one-size fits all" agreement. The reason we get "flame-wars" about the matter is that people feel threatened in some way when others aren't just like them. Get over it. If we both had surgery with the same surgeon, on the same day, at the same site and we were matched in age and experience we would still manage to disagree about something.
There will never be an end to this topic as long as people either 1) want to stir dissension for their own ends 2) live lives differently than one another. I can only prove my validity by living my life. No amount of writing, arguing or talking about it is gonna prove anything. Live it and be at peace with your life. That's the answer.
I believe that I was born exactly as I am, with female spirit in a male body. I've never related to being male since I was a child, and never tried to conform.
I respect the right of every person to self identify however they wish and only ask the same in return. I believe that people who are binary gender can coexist with people who aren't.
Z
Precicely.... I agree totally hon, I identify solely as female... but like you, im willing to let others identify as they feel... thats thier right, and id be a hypocrite if i said otherwise.... I often find a lot of argument comes from people attempting to force identities on others... or that they must identify a certain way.
I admire your determination of being labeled as "just a woman". It is true, we were all born with female brains, but the chromosomes (in most cases) just did not match that unfortunately. So we got labeled as male on our birth certificates. We were from that point on, until we got fed up with it and decided to do something about it, raised and treated as such. At some point, we decided (needed) to make a change to our body to match our mind. We (at least in the eyes of the majority population) "changed from being male to female" (trans sexed) even though we may have always seen ourselves as female. So to the majority populous, that makes a person a transsexual.
I fully understand you saying you are female now and have always been. I totally agree with you. By me saying you are a transsexual woman is like me saying you have blond hair or green eyes or of African heritage. It is just another biologically controlled aspect of what makes you, you. You should never be considered "just a ->-bleeped-<-" or anything of the like.
I only have a problem with your way of thinking when the "I'm more woman than you because I don't think I'm a transsexual" issues start coming up. I do consider myself a transwoman, but it's just what I am. I'm also a blue eyed brunette woman of Native American decent. None of those factors makes me any less of a woman than you or my natal female wife. I am your equal.
The problem is not how we see ourselves, but rather how the scientific/biological world views us, and to them, we are transsexuals. However, does it matter what anyone else thinks? What is important is how you feel. It seems that you want to deny any connection to transsexualism, and if so, that is fine by me. That only leads me to wonder, why do you come here? If you really don't want to be linked with or seen as a transsexual, it seems to me this place would be the last place you would want to be around.
I really don't want to start a holy war over this and I do feel that the last thread was partially my fault as I did come across rather condescending. I apologize for that.
For the record... I do not think myself better... i dont think thats ever come up in this.... I see myself as a woman.. yes...im not scoring things... life is not a pissing contest... unlike trans forums tend to generate... I dont care whos better or worse, just what i am/
As for your explantions, i can agree to an extent, yes, in the medical sense, yes, i am transsexual, and it will always remain that way. but One is only a 'trans woman' or 'transsexual woman' imo, if they intereact with society in that way... either volunterily, or because they apear transsexual to society....
If one looks like a duck, acts like a duck, quacks, swims, and has feathers like a duck, its a duck.... and i dont know many duck hunters with inbuild cromasonal analalysers.... or people in this case.... If one apears a woman, and one identifies as a woman, Trans doesnt come into it, weather its 'fact' or not.
On a note of ignoring history: some of us dont have all that much to begin with, so its not denying much.
Hmmmm...I don't know about people, but I can tell you about myself, so let's see Rachael... I'm not "a man" who "became" a woman or a "male" who "changed genders" to "become" a female. Thinking in that manner is what you normally get when people haven't transitioned mentally or when people are just beginning the transition process (newbies IOW). They still think of themselves as "men" who "became" or are "becoming" women; hence, cutting them a little bit of slack is appropriate, me thinks.
As for myself, I am female., always have been, I was born one. Period. Whether or not people agree with me is a non-issue. It is their mere opinion against my own convictions. Now, was I born with a birth defect? Indeed, I was. I don't deny that fact, but as I have said a zillion times on this forum, my birth defect (transsexualism) has never been "my indentity" or the essence of who I am. This is why I usually call myself (on this forum at least) a woman of transsexual history. First, I am a woman then comes everything else (on this forum ;)). Outside in the real world I am just another female, no need for me to make reference of my TS past. Why? simply because my medical history doesn't pertain to anyone except me.... I don't go around telling people I am a diabetic, or had chicken pox or mumps when I was a little girl, same thing with this "TS business"...it is something that is not part of who I am anymore. I treated it, survived it and now life simply goes on...
Did I answer your question? :)
tink :icon_chick:
I'm glad you started this topic. I too am interested in its outcome.
Quote from: Rachael on February 23, 2009, 04:55:01 PM
My own personal view, is that I have never been a man, or a transsexual... i was born a woman, i transitioned my body. I have a female mind, and a female body... whats trans there?
If you were a bio male that transitioned to female and were not intersexed, then the trans is:
Socially: You have a history of having lived as male however briefly
Biologically: You have XY chromosomes
Psychologically: You have had to deal with defining your identity in a way most never have.
There are more ways in which you could be considered trans I'm sure, but I list just a few to make the point.
Quote from: interalia on February 23, 2009, 08:27:02 PM
I'm glad you started this topic. I too am interested in its outcome.
If you were a bio male that transitioned to female and were not intersexed, then the trans is:
Socially: You have a history of having lived as male however briefly
Biologically: You have XY chromosomes
Psychologically: You have had to deal with defining your identity in a way most never have.
There are more ways in which you could be considered trans I'm sure, but I list just a few to make the point.
Yeah. Rachael is intersexed.
If anything... I think my being intersexed is not relevant here. It has its own identity problems.
Interalia: Yes, technically, but does living as a student for 3 years at college make me a student forever?
Sure, i went to college... i am at college... in 10 years, will i still be a student? because i went there once....
Chromasomes are an aside in this debate. This is identity. And i feel its relevance is slight compared to the sociological aspects.
I am a woman to all that know me, Ihave always been a woman to them. I feel female.... surely that makes me female in all actually relevant situations? isnt that all that matters?
As tink has said, ive yet to meet someone that identified as a chickenpox at 3 woman....
or because they apear transsexual to society..
Please tell me this isn't a passing contest here.
First, I don't believe in the reality of linguistic categories like "man" or "woman." They're just convenient shorthand that allow us to communicate. But because of that, because these terms come from a need to communicate, it's important how other people view my gender. And right now, most people see me as simply a man. That inner sense of my gender and what my gender ought to be is just one voice among countless others. It's an important voice, but that's it.
So as long as I'm presentling mostly as a male, being able to say I'm transsexual or transgender or just trans (I really don't care, and use them in different contexts -- they're just words anyway) is my lifeline, the way that I can negate the perception that I'm a man without it really mattering what anyone else thinks. I'm looking forward to being able to leave that behind, but for now I can't deny everybody else's experience of my gender and declare myself a woman.
I guess what I'm saying is that identity is something that we build through community, gender included. So now I'm working on reconstructing my identity within my community. When I'm done with that I'm sure I'll have a different point of view.
~Alyssa
Quote from: Ashley315 on February 23, 2009, 10:25:18 PM
or because they apear transsexual to society..
Please tell me this isn't a passing contest here.
Is everything a contest? i really have no care to play games, i care about people in my life... not randoms on the internet... it was a sincere comment. To the effect of someones identity is limited by how society sees them. A woman born trans who passes perfectly is free to identify as she pleases... ts, or just female... a woman of ts background who doesnt pass has a societal limit, because they ARE seen as trans, not as a woman... bit like tinks comment, does that make sense?
I too identify as entirely female, but to me, my history and experiences being raised as a boy have given me a very different perspective on life than most cisgendered women have. I could go with Tink's "Woman of Transsexual History" terminology because yeah, at this point it is fast becoming history (I've only been in transition for a year and a bit now), but a history I appreciate and value, despite the pain and unhappiness it caused.
To me the biology of the matter doesn't mean that much - Somebody born with CAIS is arguably very similar to a woman of transsexual history, but our experiences shape our understanding of and interaction with the world.
EDIT: That is not to say that it creates our identity, but it does shape it in the same way that my experiences of living in a particular country does, for example.
Mina.
Quote from: Rachael on February 23, 2009, 10:47:51 PM
Is everything a contest? i really have no care to play games, i care about people in my life... not randoms on the internet... it was a sincere comment. To the effect of someones identity is limited by how society sees them. A woman born trans who passes perfectly is free to identify as she pleases... ts, or just female... a woman of ts background who doesnt pass has a societal limit, because they ARE seen as trans, not as a woman... bit like tinks comment, does that make sense?
I dunno, just seems rather.... elitist to me. Like those that pass are somehow better than those that don't. I mean you saying that you can identify as a woman only because you look like one and someone who doesn't look all that much like one can't, is.... just wrong. I mean, by that standard, if you were ever to be read, then you could no longer say the same about yourself right?
FWIW, the guys also have this debate. I've been told i'm everything from a liar to ashamed of my female past when I refuse to identify as FTM. Unfortunately to access some portions of this site I must leave the obnoxious label.
A story from IRL, just for kicks-
I started going to a new clinic who treats only women and trans people and filled out their forms, which had five options. Female, Male, MTF, FTM, Decline to state. I filled all of mine out as male since legally, this is what I am. I am post-op all around, so there is nothing 'female' about my care whatsoever. Anyhoo, a receptionist calls me back into their conference room and, after we establish that i am there for transgender care, explains to me that I *must* change everything on my forms from male to FTM because they don't treat men. I pointed out to her that 1.) The forms ask "How do you identify?" not "Kindly disclose your transsexual status, if any, by using the following options" and 2.) Why have an option for 'Male' if you don't treat biological men? Needless to say, she couldn't answer any of my questions and wrote "PT does not ID as FTM." on newly marked FTM paperwork. My doctor couldn't answer this either.
So yes, OP, I'm supposed to be a ftm forever, which i despise.
Quote from: Rachael on February 23, 2009, 10:47:51 PM
Is everything a contest? i really have no care to play games, i care about people in my life... not randoms on the internet... it was a sincere comment. To the effect of someones identity is limited by how society sees them. A woman born trans who passes perfectly is free to identify as she pleases... ts, or just female... a woman of ts background who doesnt pass has a societal limit, because they ARE seen as trans, not as a woman... bit like tinks comment, does that make sense?
Well said. This is exactly my point. I'm just on the other side of it right now. The "history" part is definitly false -- it would be more accurate to say "a woman of transsexual present experience."
I didn't see it as the slightest bit elitist, by the way.
Aaaaaah Crap.
I was born a woman with some unsightly birth defects. My brain, which is the essence of who and what I am told me this. Regardless of what others may think of me, I am not a transexual woman, that is a label others wish to bestow on me to satisfy their own needs. My brain did not transition, but my body was fixed and if there are those who wish to call that as being transsexual then so be it. After all they are entitled to be wrong.
Steph
Quote from: Ashley315 on February 23, 2009, 10:56:15 PM
I dunno, just seems rather.... elitist to me. Like those that pass are somehow better than those that don't. I mean you saying that you can identify as a woman only because you look like one and someone who doesn't look all that much like one can't, is.... just wrong. I mean, by that standard, if you were ever to be read, then you could no longer say the same about yourself right?
You seem to find elitism in anything i say... I you wish to argue, do so, but this is now what this topic is for, and i stand by my statement.
Oh gosh, in this instancve, someone who passes has 'an advantage' GOLLY GOSH did you just work out passing is advantagous to um, passing?
I guess after the holy grail of passing, labels are probably the most debated topic. What we are is irrelevant as long as we are happy who we are.
My own take on this is who cares what other people label us, other peoples opinion on what I am or not labelled is of no importance to me as a person, it says F on all my official documentation, that is all that matters to me.
If someone identifies as Male, Female, Women, Man, Transsexual, Transgender or an orange, so long as they are happy with that, then so am I.
Rebecca
Just think it is all sad really. To somehow think because of the way you happen to look gives you more rights than someone else who doesn't look that way. But that is most of the world opinion anyway. I view us all the same, passing or not, a woman is a woman.
I still don't get the "I don't want to be seen as a transsexual, but I'm gonna post many topics and or pics on a forum dedicated to transgendered/transsexuals". It just leads me to wonder if you are all just trying so hard only to convince yourselves of your own womanhood. I don't feel it's something I have to prove to anyone.
Really, I could care less if you call yourself a transwoman, a woman, or a freaking ape monkey man from outer space. Whatever makes you happy.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's nice to not care what other people think. Maybe one day everyone can find that inner peace.
Because "trans..." is a label you can choose to wear or not. It's an invention by and for psychologists to express their morality about gender and define abnormal people to control their lives. Some people like it as a definition because it's all there in the DSM and SOC's for them to show people who they are, "See, it's says I am..."
In reality, post-transistion women (or men) aren't trans anything, because even by the definition there is no conflict or confusion. And those pre or in transistion are just going through a process to fix the body and get on with their life. We're all just part of the diversity of normal human expression and behavior.
While there is a biological basis for our physical,gender and sexual indentity, it shouldn't be used by psychologists to imply some stigma or morality to maintain some social order. And yes, I'll be civil. You have your view and I have mine.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on February 23, 2009, 10:33:02 PM
First, I don't believe in the reality of linguistic categories like "man" or "woman." They're just convenient shorthand that allow us to communicate. But because of that, because these terms come from a need to communicate, it's important how other people view my gender. And right now, most people see me as simply a man. That inner sense of my gender and what my gender ought to be is just one voice among countless others. It's an important voice, but that's it.
So as long as I'm presentling mostly as a male, being able to say I'm transsexual or transgender or just trans (I really don't care, and use them in different contexts -- they're just words anyway) is my lifeline, the way that I can negate the perception that I'm a man without it really mattering what anyone else thinks. I'm looking forward to being able to leave that behind, but for now I can't deny everybody else's experience of my gender and declare myself a woman.
I guess what I'm saying is that identity is something that we build through community, gender included. So now I'm working on reconstructing my identity within my community. When I'm done with that I'm sure I'll have a different point of view.
~Alyssa
Great post Alyssa!
Myself, I identify as human. I happen to have a disconnect between my physical and mental gender. That isn't so much an identity as simply a description of my internal reality.
Where identity is useful is to build community with others who might share similar experience. Hence, when I identify as transgender and/or androgyne, I see it as a way to connect with others, either for political purposes, or to offer and receive empathy for this sometimes isolating situation.
Z
Quote from: Ashley315 on February 24, 2009, 12:14:29 AM
Just think it is all sad really. To somehow think because of the way you happen to look gives you more rights than someone else who doesn't look that way. But that is most of the world opinion anyway. I view us all the same, passing or not, a woman is a woman.
I still don't get the "I don't want to be seen as a transsexual, but I'm gonna post many topics and or pics on a forum dedicated to transgendered/transsexuals". It just leads me to wonder if you are all just trying so hard only to convince yourselves of your own womanhood. I don't feel it's something I have to prove to anyone.
Really, I could care less if you call yourself a transwoman, a woman, or a freaking ape monkey man from outer space. Whatever makes you happy.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's nice to not care what other people think. Maybe one day everyone can find that inner peace.
I'm afraid you may have to get used ot that....
Passing DOES = more rights... 'passing privilage' or 'cis-privilage' that nobody sees you as gender variant.... to someone who aims to pass, that is an advantage, and does offer more ease of living over not passing. Thats not Ego... thats fact hon. If you think its not, i wonder where you keep your head...
At some point, when I was old enough to finally understand (as best I could), I realized that I'm a woman. The topic came up some years ago (elsewhere) about thinking like a woman. I was asked "how do I know I'm thinking like a woman?". My reply was something like "how else would I think?". Anyway, I'm a woman, but I accept that society sees me as a man, or transgendered, transsexual, or whatever. It's simply the way it is. I really don't spend time lamenting on this. I do hope that when I fully transition that I'll be seen simply as a woman, nothing less. Society labels everything. Perhaps I'm just too simplistic, but I have really important issues to ponder, like hrt, rlt, srs, and getting down to a size 10...
Quote from: Rachael on February 23, 2009, 09:26:34 PM
Does living as a student for 3 years at college make me a student forever?
I'm afraid it does seem to. As soon as people here you were a student much is expected of your interests, temperaments, habits and background. Some universities and courses can also never be lived down.
I actually think that the women here are women and the men are men, because I work on the presumption that not only do they know best, but the brain is the best and most accurate seat of personality and identity. Of course the fact that you transitioned implies that the brain was not the be all and end all for yourself, you had to modify your body to match. That is where the transsexual history comes in.
Tink sums it up best in her signature,
I transitioned to female because I am female and always have been. I didn't transition to some special gender status that includes a spectrum. I didn't transition to some fabricated third sex, and for dang sure I didn't transition to something that was "less than female".
one bit bothers me though.
I didn't transition to some special gender status that includes a spectrum.
I agree with the statement, she didn't transition to a special gender status that includes a spectrum. However I would say she was always on this spectrum, as cis-gendered individuals are and she just nudged her body to get closer to her brain. That she has a female identity, a female self, but a transgendered body.
A person might not identify as chicken pox, but chicken pox leaves little permanent scars that wouldn't be there otherwise.
Quote from: Rachael on February 24, 2009, 08:53:11 AM
I'm afraid you may have to get used ot that....
Passing DOES = more rights... 'passing privilage' or 'cis-privilage' that nobody sees you as gender variant.... to someone who aims to pass, that is an advantage, and does offer more ease of living over not passing. Thats not Ego... thats fact hon. If you think its not, i wonder where you keep your head...
Can we please remain devoted to conversation rather han jabs? This is what elicits flame wars. The inability to just respond to something without the personal suggestions that if someone disagrees they have their heads poked into places heads don't normally fit.
You are quite aware of that, Rach. That passing does involve a certain amount of privilege is undeniable, but it's not everyone's holy grail. I don't think that makes them unthinking or moronic, it just means that they see no need to make the necessary changes that might bring that closer to happening.
Good grief, you didn't want flames. Well, stop with the personal affronts please. Otherwise like this topic always tends to do, it will be locked.
Nichole
I didnt say it was what everyone wanted, but i said that it does undeniably give more to the person....
And Pica: I disagree.... Medically a transsexual body, but Imo, its as female as any woman that has no uterus... are they transsexed because they are not fertile?
Maybe yer right, can't claim enough medical knowledge to assert my claim or deny yours or anyfink.
Though you'll let me have the 'transsexual history' bit? :)
Post Merge: February 24, 2009, 10:29:13 AM
maybe we could say a body that has been on a transgendered journey.
to an extent, but it depends on the person and thier personal situation... ;)
OK, here's a confession :)
When I was a teenager everything had to be all or nothing for me - male or female etc. When I started to transition my mind went along with it and identified as 100% female, despite being into girls and going for the butch look (!).
But, just recently while hanging out with my girlfriends I met this girl who was really into me for being trans. Well, she's really cute and extremely seksi and she just woke up a side of me that I thought was dead.
Is that really so bad that both of us see things in that way, to be honest I found it one of the most liberating experiences of my life not to have be anything but myself.
Surely everything is fluid to a certain extent, just like the Straight/Gay line. How many people are 100% Gay or vice-versa?
A lot id guess.... most of the world is very straight.... As am i... the idea of same sex stuff is weird... at best.
As for identification: what does identifying female have to do with being butch, or lesbian? are butch lesbians not allowed to be women?
Quote from: Tink on February 23, 2009, 07:35:43 PM
I don't go around telling people I am a diabetic, or had chicken pox or mumps when I was a little girl, same thing with this "TS business"...it is something that is not part of who I am anymore. I treated it, survived it and now life simply goes on...
tink :icon_chick:
this is the most meaningful statement to my own situation and views, i had ts, i treated it and i moved on.
thank you Tink
AFAIK research shows that 10% of people are totally straight and 10% are totally Gay. The remaing lie somewhere along that line whatever they may profess. Could be 80/20, could be 25/75 and so on...
Of course butch lesbians are women, did I suggest otherwise!
As for the world being very straight, are you sure about that?
How many take this research?
if every person in the world has, ill belive it. but if thats a ts community or lgbt statement, it means little.
Quote from: Rachael on February 24, 2009, 11:17:57 AM
How many take this research?
if every person in the world has, ill belive it. but if thats a ts community or lgbt statement, it means little.
Every person in the world has to take a test! You are joking surely?
There's a science called statistics, it's a little like voting intention polls... They predicted an Obama win and what happened?
As for statements by any of the communities you mentioned they have as much validity as any others. God help us all if we have only to listen to the opinions of Straight people, next thing homosexuality will be a sin and punishable by heaven knows what.
I'm not ashamed of my sexuality nor does it make me feel wrong or inferior in any way.
I am a trans-woman and have always felt very comfortable with that label. As a trans-woman I do not feel I am better of worse than anyone. Everyone has the personal right to self-identify as they wish.
What bothers me is when people identify as ___________, in such a way that says if anyone else in their same gender condition does not identify as such, then they are idiots. Enough said!
Quote from: Virginia87106 on February 24, 2009, 11:31:33 AM
I am a trans-woman and have always felt very comfortable with that label. As a trans-woman I do not feel I am better of worse than anyone. Everyone has the personal right to self-identify as they wish.
What bothers me is when people identify as ___________, in such a way that says if anyone else in their same gender condition does not identify as such, then they are idiots. Enough said!
Right on Sister :)
"I" am a bloke. "I" as in my self-aware-self. "I" as in "my non-physical self".
The body that "I" Inhabit however, is not a boy. Even if I change it, it'll still require me to manage it's hormonal balance myself manually. It'll never function 100% like it would if it had been male to begin with. And nothing I do to it will change that it was born female.
I will always have taken that step to change my flesh to fit who "I" am, have always been and will always be. That is to say, "I" am a bloke, and always will be, but at the same time, just like I have brown hair, am right handed, and so on, I will always also be a trans-guy.
Being right-handed isn't my identity. Being brown-haired (turning gray fast) is not "who" I am. But it doesn't change that I'm right-handed and brown-haired. Just like trans is something I am, but not "who" I am.
I don't see why people can't accept that both apply.
I am not my body, I am not my haircolour, but that doesn't mean my body isn't my own or that my haircolour changes itself.
"I" am myself, always will be,... but that doesn't change the physical facts...
I'm a bloke, but no amount of me being a bloke will change that I was born with the wrong equipment.
QuoteI don't see why people can't accept that both apply.
I'm willing to bet this is a perspective that differs between people who pass v. people who don't, people who are post op v. people who aren't, people for whom this is recent v. people for whom this has been 'dealt with' for years, etc.
Quote from: Mister on February 24, 2009, 03:37:31 PM
I'm willing to bet this is a perspective that differs between people who pass v. people who don't, people who are post op v. people who aren't, people for whom this is recent v. people for whom this has been 'dealt with' for years, etc.
To be perfectly honest. I still don't understand it..
Quote from: Miniar on February 24, 2009, 04:01:13 PM
To be perfectly honest. I still don't understand it..
Well, let me take a shot at it from a personal perspective...
Everything from my female past (except the box of photos my mother has requested to keep, which is fine with me) has been eliminated. Every record changed, every possible record sealed. All my surgeries were completed a while ago and between chest hair and seeing them all the time, i don't notice my scars anymore. There is no hint of femininity left in my body, thanks in part to being 5'10" 170 lbs and thin hipped. I look at myself and it's just not there. it's over. it's done. I've left the Missus behind and now live my life soley as Mister. When it comes down to it, will my physician always see me as a transsexual? Yes, but not due to the presence of female body parts but rather for the lack of needing such comfy procedures as a prostate exam. My friends and family know me only as Mister and now referring to me as Missus sounds strange coming out of their mouths. Friends i have made since do not know, as it has no bearing on our friendship. If they were to find out, I'd be willing to say they'd be shocked. My life as a "woman" has been removed, just like my faulty appendix.
Would I embrace a lifelong TS identity if I didn't pass as well? Possibly. I assume that if I was not as undetectable as I am, my community activism would be much more frontlines and involved. I can't say for sure, as I have the luxury of walking through my life undetected.
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 24, 2009, 09:42:22 AM
she has a female identity, a female self, but a transgendered body.
Hmmmm...since we are talking about MY body here, Pica just for the record..there is nothing "transgendered" about my body or myself. My body is female and so is my mind. I was born with a female brain (IOW a female neurological gender identity (http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034)) SRS didn't change my "gender" either; it simply brought congruence between my (neurological) gender identity and my anatomy.
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: imaz on February 24, 2009, 11:24:35 AM
Every person in the world has to take a test! You are joking surely?
There's a science called statistics, it's a little like voting intention polls... They predicted an Obama win and what happened?
As for statements by any of the communities you mentioned they have as much validity as any others. God help us all if we have only to listen to the opinions of Straight people, next thing homosexuality will be a sin and punishable by heaven knows what.
I'm not ashamed of my sexuality nor does it make me feel wrong or inferior in any way.
Statistics need to take EVERY person into account or it is just a sample....
samples can be taken from anywhere to prove a statistic you want.... you'll forgive me if i dont belive the world is mostly into same sex activity to some extent or another.... Dont be ashamed of your sexuality....
Sorry, but you missed my point... i was saying that sampling from the lgbt communities would ruin the sample's authenticity.... Nobody said it was a sin, or not to listen to you... get off your high horse....
As for the obama statistic... god, cant you see the difference bettween a 50/50 election prediction, AND THE WORLD's SEXUALITY? *facepalm*
"Sorry, but you missed my point... i was saying that sampling from the lgbt communities would ruin the sample's authenticity...."
Sampling the heterosexual community's just fine then?
Face-palm or not, try to hold your prejudice in sway.
You are one bad tempered and aggressive girl. Go have a lie down.
I would avoid personal attacks, and if you read my post, you'd see i said sample 'THE WHOLE WORLD' what part of whole world means 'just hetros'
I think you need to calm down and read this topic again hon, because id hate to get things argumentative. Understanding a post or reading it twice can clear any mistakes and save fights starting.
Hi Rachael and Imaz,
From my understanding, you may have a small miscommunication issue. It's not the fault of either one of you. Sometimes peoples messages just kind of cross funny. Please don't argue.
It may be better if you don't address each other's posts here in this thread for a while.
Thank you,
Rebis
Quote from: Rachael on February 24, 2009, 08:53:11 AM
I'm afraid you may have to get used ot that....
Passing DOES = more rights... 'passing privilage' or 'cis-privilage' that nobody sees you as gender variant.... to someone who aims to pass, that is an advantage, and does offer more ease of living over not passing. Thats not Ego... thats fact hon. If you think its not, i wonder where you keep your head...
That's not the point I was making. My point is, that I would never view someone who doesn't pass as being any different than I am. I agree, it is easier if you pass, but that doesn't make me superior to anyone who doesn't. The thing is about passing, there isn't a real measurable way to define it. You may think you are passing perfectly, but in reality, there are many out there who read you like a book but are open minded and understanding so they just go with it. The fact is, you don't know what is really going through someones mind when they see you.
Ashley- You are so right on!!!!
Ashley, that's a lovely sentiment ... but after going back and forth something like six times, I can't figure out why you insist that you disagree with Rachael. You seem to be saying the same thing.
Rachael said nothing about people with so-called passing priviledge being better or worse, only that they have, well, priviledge. They have literally more rights afforded them. All you seem to be saying is that passing priviledge is relative to some extent.
Your last point is ambiguous. Are you referring to all transsexual women, some or them, or Rachael in particular? Certainly this woman didn't have to worry about people in everyday life seeing her as transsexual (though sadly she did have to worry about her past being uncovered -- but I don't think you can credibly argue that her looks tipped anyone off):
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcontexts.org%2Fsocimages%2Ffiles%2F2008%2F06%2Fcc61.jpg&hash=4715cfe189f0dce1761eb95b6c67518a995c3fb4)
I don't get the impression Rachael has much trouble herself ... the exact opposite dynamic seems more likely, that is, that she's convinced whe doesn't pass, and in reality she does, pretty much perfectly. That's not exactly unheard of -- see Raci in Transgeneration, for instance. (I don't think Gabbie really applies, since she is so open about her status.)
I don't imply one way or the other on a personal matter if a person passes or not. That is not for me to decide. I really don't care if someone does or not, they will be the same in my eyes. If they are not the same to anyone else, then I really pity that person for their shallowness. "Passing privilage" should not be a factor, sadly, I know it is to many, just not me.
I don't want to be set apart from anyone for any reason. We all have struggles and I think we should stick with our kind in the fight for equality. I'm sure as hell not taking the cowardice side of things and saying "Well, I pass perfectly. If you are treated like crap, that's not my problem." No, I will fight for them as well. That is where the problem of this discussion all started. One group not wanting to be linked with another because of passing privilage. It's just stupid.
People are diverse even within the same demographic. Individuals tend to be at different places in their personal development. Sometimes people are at a place where they wish to keep to themselves, and other times they are at a place where they may wish to be involved.
people are just all different. I no longer waste energy trying to understand why some people feel differently than I do. They just do.
Quote from: Ashley315 on March 01, 2009, 12:13:49 PM
That's not the point I was making. My point is, that I would never view someone who doesn't pass as being any different than I am. I agree, it is easier if you pass, but that doesn't make me superior to anyone who doesn't. The thing is about passing, there isn't a real measurable way to define it. You may think you are passing perfectly, but in reality, there are many out there who read you like a book but are open minded and understanding so they just go with it. The fact is, you don't know what is really going through someones mind when they see you.
As much as i want to say you're wrong, You just confirmed what my mother tells me every time we speak, and have stripped the last of my self confidence.
Thankyou
Quote from: Rachael on March 02, 2009, 06:00:09 PM
As much as i want to say you're wrong, You just confirmed what my mother tells me every time we speak, and have stripped the last of my self confidence.
Thankyou
Not even close to what I was really meaning by all this, but take it however you want. I personally don't know if you pass, don't care, and would never say one way or the other. Was only making a point that we can not read peoples minds. Why should it matter if they "know but are understanding and go with it"? They are still treating you the way they should be regardless of the reasoning.
I give up on this topic. It's a pointless thing to argue about.
Quote from: Ashley315 on March 02, 2009, 06:43:01 PM
Not even close to what I was really meaning by all this, but take it however you want. I personally don't know if you pass, don't care, and would never say one way or the other. Was only making a point that we can not read peoples minds. Why should it matter if they "know but are understanding and go with it"? They are still treating you the way they should be regardless of the reasoning.
I give up on this topic. It's a pointless thing to argue about.
I see what you're saying, Ashley, but I feel like there's an absolute difference between passing without recognition and with it. I've passed as both and can say i've been treated much more 'male' by those who didn't recognize my history.
You just proved that frame of mind.....
As for why it matters?
I am a woman, i want to be seen as a woman, not accepted as 'a woman' Acceptance suggests that you are accepted for something you are not. I dont want acceptance.
[Edited violation of TOS, Rule 7-- Nichole]... all you post seems to be bitter and frankly unhelpful....
As for my own situation. I get told every other moment by my mother, that i dont pass, that people treat me as a girl out of sympathy or humouring me... I find this disgusting personally. I live by the truth, i want to live in a world of it. not a cotton padded fantisy land....
You have no concept of others feelings do you? In a support forum, such views are franky worse than so called 'you dont pass' comments. Then again, what with the old sentiment here of 'if you cant tell someone they pass, dont post'. You cant see my point becase your reality doesnt exist....
Ok, topic locked. All this sort of thing ever does is cause hurt feelings. O, I also removed your suggestion that someone stop posting altogether, Rachael. That violates TOS and you are well aware of that.
Nichole