Discussion of Harry Benjamin Syndrome, Women Born Transsexual, posts which advocate the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term will be deleted on sight by staff. Don't waste your time or theirs posting that tripe here. You can be transsexual that doesn't prevent you from being transgender as well.
Katia has been banned for 7 days for the HBS posting spree she went on. I am sick and tired of it.
Well this site its more of the "rainbow" type. So those kind of post could be upsetting perhaps.
Interesting choice.
or unifying, for those who feel they have little/nothing in common with the rest of the umbrella.
So we are not allowed to Identify as women? or say we do? We must identify as transwomen or transsexuals? (Clarifying)
Good going, Susan. And if you will permit me to field some peanuts, the idea that anyone would have a problem with us saying we are women is ludicrous, to put it politley. We can be women, TS, and TG. To say so is inclusive. The proposition that one cannot be a woman and TG is divisive, and I certainly hope that statements to that effect will not be tolerated.
Quote from: Rachael on March 10, 2009, 12:41:25 AM
So we are not allowed to Identify as women? or say we do? We must identify as transwomen or transsexuals? (Clarifying)
You say you're clarifying, but it more seems like fishing for an argument. People can identify as whatever they want. Discussion of the type Susan noted is prohibited.
...........
Why not just take what people say at face value? Lots of internet flame wars start by people making assumptions.
Frankly, I understand if this seems rather marginalizing to women who identify with the HBS/WBT taxonomy, and that's unfortunate, especially if the idea is unity and mutual support.
Rachael, you said you were looking for clarification, so I'll give it a shot (at the risk of putting words in Susan's mouth).
You don't have to identify as anything at all to join and post to this site. I don't particularly like the terminology as used here either, but you need something. (Okay, granted I like it more than you do.) People argue a lot about various terms, and "Transgender" as an umbrella term is always a hot topic -- but it's kind of the underlying assumption of the site, so this isn't the place to argue it.
The other issue is about exclusion in general. Some of the posts in question didn't just talk about the HBS/WBT taxonomy, but were rather condescending toward some of the other groups represented on this site -- and I think that's the main issue.
So, identify how you please, understand the local lingo, however flawed, and don't be hatin' on groups represented here.
I hope that's fairly coherent and accurate.
~Alyssa
Quote
The other issue is about exclusion in general. Some of the posts in question didn't just talk about the HBS/WBT taxonomy, but were rather condescending toward some of the other groups represented on this site -- and I think that's the main issue
Those posts were apparently removed as no evidence of them remains. Removing posts and then holding membership to "Don't do that!" is kind of awkward, since not everyone was privy to the banned content.
As for the umbrella term being hotly contested, just not here, I find that to be sad. I'm one who sees value in dissent, as long as it doesn't get personal. It's sad that a community that advertises itself to be open to opinions and healthy debate is too precariously balanced to examine it's own foundation.
It gets personal here, Mister, and perhaps elsewhere as well. When you try and exclude people and draw lines in the sand, that's personal, and that's what Susan is talking about. Many of us identify as women or as men, and not as trans. That doesn't mean that we get to say "I made it, pull the ladder up." And that's what the HBS stuff does.
Dennis
I beg to differ, Dennis. HBS doesn't say pull the ladder up, it says, "Phew! That birth defect's over. Now on with my life..." which seems to be exactly how many people in this forum ID, just without adding the acronym.
I agree that with many, it says that. However, it's used as a springboard to exclude people when it's applied, and that's been a constant problem here. Well, at least in the last year or so since it's flared up.
Dennis
ok, so... i can be as "my defect is gone, woo hoo!" as i wanna be, as long as i don't take harry's name in vain? please point out the line so i do not step on it.
Quote from: Mister on March 10, 2009, 01:45:51 AM
I beg to differ, Dennis. HBS doesn't say pull the ladder up, it says, "Phew! That birth defect's over. Now on with my life..." which seems to be exactly how many people in this forum ID, just without adding the acronym.
There are a number of people on this forum who see it like that ... and who don't make a big deal about words, and who offer plenty of support to others around here regardless of their politics.
There are more important things to debate, and I don't think debate is really the point of this site anyway. I always thought the point was support. I hope that the foundation of this community is something more meaningful than taxonomy. Say, something more like a shared history of struggle with how society expects us to live as gendered people.
Quote from: Mister on March 10, 2009, 01:58:23 AM
ok, so... i can be as "my defect is gone, woo hoo!" as i wanna be, as long as i don't take harry's name in vain? please point out the line so i do not step on it.
Excluding people is the problem. My defect is gone and I'm better than you. Or my defect is gone, so I don't need to support you. Or worse, I get rights cause I look like the majority and you don't, too bad. That's what the problem is. I'm long past transition myself. I would never even think that I'm better than a guy who's pre-ho, no-ho, pre-op, no-op, or androgyne. If they don't have equal rights, we don't have an equal society. And my rights don't take precedence over anyone else's.
Dennis
Quote from: Dennis on March 10, 2009, 02:12:28 AM
Excluding people is the problem. My defect is gone and I'm better than you. Or my defect is gone, so I don't need to support you. Or worse, I get rights cause I look like the majority and you don't, too bad. That's what the problem is. I'm long past transition myself. I would never even think that I'm better than a guy who's pre-ho, no-ho, pre-op, no-op, or androgyne. If they don't have equal rights, we don't have an equal society. And my rights don't take precedence over anyone else's.
Dennis
Aurgh, that gets so tricky b/c you get into passing privilege, etc. Something as simple as "I have no restroom issues whatsoever." can be construed by someone who DOES have them as your flaunting that you pass. i caught hell in an internet forum back when i started T b/c i made all the not-yet-there dudes upset. It gets dicey as hell.
Nobody here has ever had a topic like that nuked or edited. Like I said, it's generalization. No-ho, pre-ho, no-op, pre-op, are somehow not as good as the rest, and those of us who have transitioned need to band together and exclude the others to get our rights. That's the problem. I expect politeness on the passing things, but not outright exclusion. And that includes the late-transitioner versus early-transitioner crap.
Dennis
The Umbrella here covers a lot of ground. that coverage comes with a price, The respect of diversity. The common ground we stand on is support. Members come to this site because they find support and respect for all. Driving a wedge by advocating separation or exclusion is over the line.
Quote from: Susan on March 09, 2009, 09:29:24 PMPosts which advocate the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
You can identify how you wish, you can even say you are such and such if you like. You can not say you are not transgender, if not then why are you here? You can not say that transsexuals are better off without GLBT or CD's, or anything that smacks of being exclusionary.
If I wanted to make a transsexual only support site I could have. I did not do so for a couple of reasons.
One is to be as inclusive as possible. Many times someone starts off identifying one way and as they learn more they change their identification. But either way as the TOS says everyone is welcome here, and that only myself or my staff can tell someone to leave.
I will not tolerate anyone trying to drive wedges between parts of our community.
Quote from: Susan on June 11, 2005, 01:24:27 AM
The wolves circle in close pulling off members of the herd a few at a time. The stronger members of the herd race on surviving for a time against the relentless onslaught of the pack while the weak begin to fall by the wayside and are snapped up. Eventually the strong become the weak as all the lesser members of the herd have been eaten up. Soon none are left. This is analogy of what happens when you take what the public sees as a whole and start trying to separate out portions of it.
Greetings and salutations to the users of my boards and the wolves who wish to divide them. The public looks at us and they see one thing men in dresses for the MTF's, TS's CD's, and TV's. For the FTM they only see a lesbian women. This of course assumes you do not pass fully and thus become for the most part invisible. The public doesn't see the spectrum that makes up the transgender community they have no inkling that there is a difference between a Drag Queen or King, a CD, a TS, MTF or FTM. Education could help this but it would take generations for any effects to be seen. We have enough problem with those who just see us all as gay.
Here on Susan's Place I have four goals. Simple ones really.
Providing Information and Education - Transgender individuals come on the net and one of the first things they do is find out they are not alone out there and that others have similar feelings to themselves. Then you have the friends and loved ones who had someone they care about who recently came out of the closet. They both want information about the transgendered
Providing Support - After providing information and education this is a very important function of this website. We all need reassurance from time to time. We have setbacks in our lives or we lose family and friends as a result of coming out or being found out. We need others who understand what we are going though.
Preventing Tragedy - We have all been depressed. Many of us have been suicidal. We cheer up those who are down about their lives and try to redirect those thought before they can turn to to depression or worse suicide. We help buoy each other and thus keep our heads above water and our minds in the fragile condition known as sanity.
Companionship - A side effect of the first three purposes of this site but still just as important is the simple fact that this is a place where we can talk about our lives and our experiences. We discuss anything from books to hormones from the serious to the whimsical. We grow by our contact with others who understand and respect us.
I don't limit my site to one segment of the transgender community. I refuse to allow at least here in this one place in the world that I control for people to be excluded or to be made to feel less than any other member of my site. You are all equal in my eyes and each of you should see the other members of this site in the same way. As equals.
Let us now put an end to the TS vs CD and similar discussions, fights, and arguments on this site once and for all.
Susan,
Simply
Thank you.
I always fail to see how those who suffer intolerance can be intolerant.
Cindy JAmes
Quote from: CindyJames on March 10, 2009, 04:02:43 AM
Susan,
Simply
Thank you.
I always fail to see how those who suffer intolerance can be intolerant.
Cindy JAmes
Me too, but sadly it happens often. The Israel/Palestine conflict is a prime example.
Discrimination happens and it can go both ways :(
I have read lots of stories and what others have shared. I have had my quota of sharing stuff. So far the only thing clear for me its that we are all different and while there are some things we might share. The needs and challenges one person haves might be similar to mine or completely opposite.
Everyone has their own road to follow. Respecting that its important because that way maybe they can respect mine.
Labels are just that, and they are useful at the beginning but later they are simply that. You can choose to stick to one label or create your own and its good. Just remember that when you reach the point that your ideas and/or actions start to hurt others (or hinder in a huge way) they those ideas and actions needs to stop and be reevaluated.
Like someone say: Live and let live. (or die, or transition or just be lazy,etc, etc(
"Lack of hyper liberalism seen as bad"
Come on Rachael, it's hardly "hyper liberalism" [sic] to accept difference. It's merely common decency to accept people for who they are irrespective of their ethnic origin, sexual orientation, sex, gender, age or religious belief.
At the end of the day we are all human beings, none of us are more worthy than the other, we need to learn to live together. If I can say that as a Muslim transgendered person so too I hope can you as a Jewish one. Let's not start ring fencing and building walls as it always ends in tragedy as history has shown us time after time.
Salaam.
The Israel/Palestine conflict is a prime example.
A near perfect example, as both side have long lists of grievances, wrongs and actions that they can point to the other side as being the cause of. And in the end ever smaller group splinter off till you're facing a war of all against all on both sides. Who's right? Whose wrong? Who even cares anymore? No sitution in the post war world has received so much support on both sides only to waste it until many people just give up and do the plague on both your houses deal and cease to support either side. And, like that sad story, no one ever seems to win, and more or less innocent people on both sides wind up getting caught like shrimp in a battle between two whales.
That being said, perhaps there are separate, discrete and real differences between people in the community, and just like All Transexuals are Transgender, but not all Transgenders are Transexuals, it could be that all persons with HBS are TS, but not all TS have HBS. There might well be several ways through the woods, and not all people have the same end goal in mind when they choose those paths (or have them chosen for them) in the first place.
So, TS is a sub catagory of TG, and HBS is a subcategorization of TS, and I'm sure there is a male HBS which is different from the female HBS, and it might well turn out that there are several unique ways of being a woman with HBS so not all of them are really alike, or in the same group. Does it ever end?
Moreover, and this is my favorite, really it is, is this not all in motion? Are not people moving from one to the other? Or back? People find out a lot about themselves reading and posting on these boards, and along with finding out what you are, finding out what you are not is important too. Many times in my life, and I'm sure in yours also, you've thought you were something (or wanted to be) only to get close enough and say "That's not really me."
So perhaps we ought to open a section and call it The Crypt for those topics that a) will never die, and b) almost never ever be civil, and warn people, like the old maps did that 'This way be monsters and madness' and let those who would wander into that morass know what they are in for, and the rest of us will, having been stung in the past once or twice, avoid it.
Quote from: SusanK on March 10, 2009, 08:20:15 AM
... But then I would also expect the moderators to stop posting news and editorials from Websites or blogs that do support HBS or the independence of post-transistion women. If you don't want it here, don't yell at us for talking when you bring it into the forum. After all it's your rules, maybe we all should abide by them?
I believe that she covered that with the ban mentioned in the OP. I think it's safe to say that mods will be deleting posts that try to scurry that argument back into the boards.
For those who want to argue, it doesn't take a lot to find list-serves and blogs that will allow you to "discuss" and argue all you wish on the banned topic.
Nichole
Quote from: SusanK on March 10, 2009, 08:20:15 AM
Interesting. I agree with Rachael. I don't identify nor want to be recognized as trans-anything. That's a medical and legal label, it's not me. It's your Website and forum, and everyone has to honor your rules, or we can either keep our mouth shut on this issue or vote with our feet. That's our right.
I personally don't understand that any post-transistion woman wants to wear the "trans" pin. Why else do we fight for the right to be women, be recognized as women, want the same rights and protections as women? But then we argue we're "special" women who deserve additional rights as transwomen? That's our history, our past, it's not our present or future. Why should we be give our opponents the ammunition to discriminate against us?
There are varying levels at which one can take an identity or label to heart. Some people may choose to claim the transgender label, and make a conscious decision to be out about identifying as such. Other people (particularly those post medical transition) may take a very different stance, think that the label has very little relevance to their everyday lives, not really consider it a word that describes their experiences particularly closely, never use it to describe themselves but still recognise that they may fall under that banner in its loosest sense. Nobody is asking you to grasp the 'transgender' label with both hands and shout it from the rooftops, just recognise that it (at least in some of the broader definitions) may cover part of your medical and/or social history. I certainly hope not anyway, I don't particularly like the 'transgender' label either and never use it to describe myself, I just begrudgingly accept that it does apply to me at some level.
If the trans labels and your history have no relevance to you whatsoever I have to ask why are you here? You're on the one hand participating in a forum that offers a service to a certain subset of women while claiming no connection to that subset.
Quote from: A~ on March 10, 2009, 11:56:39 AM
If the trans labels and your history have no relevance to you whatsoever I have to ask why are you here? You're on the one hand participating in a forum that offers a service to a certain subset of women while claiming no connection to that subset.
Exactly, well said :)
Im in a "Trans"it lounge heading to Tassie
Translation please! ;D
Quote from: imaz on March 10, 2009, 12:12:25 PM
Translation please! ;D
She's connected from a wifi in an airport prior to flying to Tasmania
rofl
Quote from: Nichole on March 10, 2009, 12:15:12 PM
She's connected from a wifi in an airport prior to flying to Tasmania
Thank you :)
Since I stopped watching "Neighbours" years ago I've lost track of our Antipodean cousins "use" of English! ;)
Rachael's account deleted at her request anyone else?
Quote from: imaz on March 10, 2009, 12:27:02 PM
Thank you :)
Since I stopped watching "Neighbours" years ago I've lost track of our Antipodean cousins "use" of English! ;)
I never watch tv, guess I haven't seen anything Australian lately except "Australia" :laugh: But I've been interneting with them for years and they aren't usually quite so impenetrable linguistically anymore as they were when i began!! :laugh:
Nichole
Quote from: imaz on March 10, 2009, 12:27:02 PM
Thank you :)
Antipodean
Hey imaz we shuold start up a new game like the song game except with phrases
with more than (cant spell charactres) 10 key strokes
" What does
Antiodean mean"
Quote from: Krissy_Australia on March 10, 2009, 12:49:35 PM
Hey imaz we shuold start up a new game like the song game except with phrases
with more than (cant spell charactres) 10 key strokes
" What does Antiodean mean"
That should be Anti-Odeon, shouldn't it? Like "I'm against theaters?" :) Or there is allegedly a gay bar in Zuerich, Suisse, that's called the Odeon, so perhaps anti-Odeon would be against that particular bar? :laugh:
Quote from: Krissy_Australia on March 10, 2009, 12:49:35 PM
Hey imaz we shuold start up a new game like the song game except with phrases
with more than (cant spell charactres) 10 key strokes
" What does Antiodean mean"
Antipodean means from the Antipodes! (Down Australia way)
Here in the UK unfortunately there are various "distasteful"(!) expressions used to define our Australian cousins so hence the choice of a tactful one!
Like the idea, another cool one is a "one line of poetry or a "three word post thread" thread.
For example -
"England reclaim Ashes" ;)
Here in the UK unfortunately there are various "distasteful"(!) expressions used to define our Australian cousins
You ought to hear what they say about you, LOL! The fastest way to get your butt kicked in the world is to imply to an Aussie that he or she is somehow English.
Quote from: tekla on March 10, 2009, 01:07:55 PM
Here in the UK unfortunately there are various "distasteful"(!) expressions used to define our Australian cousins
You ought to hear what they say about you, LOL! The fastest way to get your butt kicked in the world is to imply to an Aussie that he or she is somehow English.
Hehe!
yay go tekla
OMG!
As if the HBS v. TG topic wasn't bad enough now we've opened the English v. Australians can of worms! ;D
<...hums Indonesia Raya to herself and looks disparagingly south...>
Quote from: imaz on March 10, 2009, 01:24:29 PM
OMG!
As if the HBS v. TG topic wasn't bad enough now we've opened the English v. Australians can of worms! ;D
<...hums Indonesia Raya to herself and looks disparagingly south...>
I often think that we humans are so desperate to feel better about ourselves that we will disparage most anyone to attempt to make our desire reality. :laugh:
Quote from: Nichole on March 10, 2009, 03:12:41 PM
I often think that we humans are so desperate to feel better about ourselves that we will disparage most anyone to attempt to make our desire reality. :laugh:
It always comes down to "us vs them".
Is that as inbuilt to the human condition as gender identity?
Please, Goddess, no.
-Sandy
Quote from: A~ on March 10, 2009, 11:56:39 AM
If the trans labels and your history have no relevance to you whatsoever I have to ask why are you here? You're on the one hand participating in a forum that offers a service to a certain subset of women while claiming no connection to that subset.
Because I'm here for other matters of support, but you're right, if the label would get me health coverage and other benefits we've long deserved, fine, they can use it to define me as long as they don't deny me or discriminate against me. But they don't cover the costs and they won't stop the discrimination and hate, so in reality it's almost a useless label.
It only goes to show that wanting to be known as "transgender" only puts folks in the very box other people want to label us, discriminate against us, call us abnormal, and deny us rights, privileges and benefits. But becuase it's "our" box, we're happy?
And now I've learned with what issues to simply walk away from because hearing all sides of an issue aren't available here. And rightfully, it's the owner's privilege, but that too comes at a price and cost too.
Quote from: SusanK on March 10, 2009, 04:24:56 PM
... And now I've learned with what issues to simply walk away from because hearing all sides of an issue aren't available here. And rightfully, it's the owner's privilege, but that too comes at a price and cost too.
That's an interesting take, given that until yesterday this "issue" has been done with and reopened many, many times; especially during the past year or two. Everyone, including people who joined the board strictly for the argument, adulation or whatever of seeing the imported links brought here and talked about, has participated: many of us and them again and again.
Yet, now that the "enough is more than enough" sign has come to the topic we hear that gem. Like somehow the discussion has never been allowed rather than that it's now being stopped after two years and more of hashing it.
I have not yet seen this topic discussed to distraction at strict TS forums and with as full a hearing as it's had here. I know that on the "true transsexual" list-serves that it is not discussed with any sense that the opposer of the party-line there is to be given any respect or hearing at all. Instead the tack is invariably withering personal attack and attempts at dismissal and shaming.
That has never been the case at Susan's.
I don't agree with everything the boss does, but this time I am totally in her corner. This crap does nothing but divide and she has allowed it to go on and on for two years without smacking it down. I'd say every pov has been heard: more than once and quite openly.
The stone you appeared to cast just doesn't land near Susan. She's had patience and given both "sides" plenty of time and bandwidth. Way more than you are going to find done elsewhere. Elsewhere tends to be "you will argue this but not that or you will go."
Now, about this topic, I suppose that's true here as well. But please don't imply that Susan has been less than fair in this. She has shown a lot of patience for something that she apparently doesn't agree with. I'd say she's bent over backwards to be fair, and has succeeded.
Nichole
SusanK had her account deleted anyone else?
I see something very wrong with being discriminatory when you are part of group that is so widely discriminated against. If we do nothing but perpetrate the same crimes against our own as others perpetrate against us, what are we? Do we have any right to tell those who hate us because we're different that they're wrong?
We're all in this boat of not having been born into a body that necessary suits who we are; we all transcend the lines of traditional gender barriers. What do labels matter? Who cares what the "why" is?
If people want to leave this site because they're unhappy that they can't be thought of as superior to others, or for any other reason related to this discussion, please do so, for the rest of our benefit. I think Susan is absolutely in the right to expel this garbage from our otherwise accepting and supportive community.
SD
Quote from: Sebastien on March 10, 2009, 05:35:47 PM
I see something very wrong with being discriminatory when you are part of group that is so widely discriminated against. If we do nothing but perpetrate the same crimes against our own as others perpetrate against us, what are we? Do we have any right to tell those who hate us because we're different that they're wrong?
We're all in this boat of not having been born into a body that necessary suits who we are; we all transcend the lines of traditional gender barriers. What do labels matter? Who cares what the "why" is?
If people want to leave this site because they're unhappy that they can't be thought of as superior to others, or for any other reason related to this discussion, please do so, for the rest of our benefit. I think Susan is absolutely in the right to expel this garbage from our otherwise accepting and supportive community.
SD
Tell me about it! :)
With all the sh*t happening in this World do we really want to waste our lives bitching about who is TS, who is TG or whoever is whatever. As you rightly say we were all born with certain difficulties we had to face that SHOULD unite us in human solidarity not divide us.
This is truly a disgraceful kind of disagreement and as people who have suffered greatly we should have the decency to have compassion and understanding for those who have also suffered and continue to suffer.
I fully support Susan in her actions here.
I could never debate a topic as strong as this.
I am here for support and I believe this site has supported me through alot of my transition.
I have never felt labeled here as anything other than who I identified as, and I see others as
they wish to be identified. It really is that simple, why do some make it complicated?
Susan, you have a big heart and I personally am grateful that you do.
Quote from: tekla on March 10, 2009, 01:07:55 PM
Here in the UK unfortunately there are various "distasteful"(!) expressions used to define our Australian cousins
You ought to hear what they say about you, LOL! The fastest way to get your butt kicked in the world is to imply to an Aussie that he or she is somehow English.
just cos we are descended from the criminals who didn't get caught.
Quote from: Pica Pica on March 10, 2009, 07:44:55 PM
just cos we are descended from the criminals who didn't get caught.
Hahaha! Class. ;D
The problem only came from them using it as a weapon against the rest of us who are not ashamed of being trans and can accept that it is only a very small fraction of who we are. It does not define us, it is just something that links us all together. I'm sorry, but the standard is right, if you are not trans or family/friend of trans and you are only here to try and divide the lines like some obviously were here to do, then I for one and glad to see you go. Hope more join the masses and go somewhere else with that HBS BS.
You say you have/had HBS, big deal, doesn't make you anymore more woman/man than any other trans woman/man here. HBS people wanted to be considered apart from Trans.. here is their chance. Go, be free. Denounce trans and everything related to it. Have a great life. Hope it all works out well for you.
Quote from: Ashley315 on March 10, 2009, 11:15:18 PM
The problem only came from them using it as a weapon against the rest of us who are not ashamed of being trans and can accept that it is only a very small fraction of who we are. It does not define us, it is just something that links us all together. I'm sorry, but the standard is right, if you are not trans or family/friend of trans and you are only here to try and divide the lines like some obviously were here to do, then I for one and glad to see you go. Hope more join the masses and go somewhere else with that HBS BS.
You say you have/had HBS, big deal, doesn't make you anymore more woman/man than any other trans woman/man here. HBS people wanted to be considered apart from Trans.. here is their chance. Go, be free. Denounce trans and everything related to it. Have a great life. Hope it all works out well for you.
Ashley, not everyone who doesn't ID as trans does so because they're ashamed. That's a pretty horrible myth.
Quote from: Mister on March 10, 2009, 11:20:53 PM
Ashley, not everyone who doesn't ID as trans does so because they're ashamed. That's a pretty horrible myth.
Really? Give me more reasons please. Oh, you are right, there is the cowardice part of it. Forgot about that one. Or the fact that maybe they are so wrapped up in their own selves to think of how it harms others. But it really boils down the them wanting to be more woman than a trans woman. That just isn't possible. Trans women are just as womanly as cis gendered women and especially as womanly as any HBS woman.
Quote from: Ashley315 on March 10, 2009, 11:31:14 PM
Really? Give me more reasons please. Oh, you are right, there is the cowardice part of it. Forgot about that one. Or the fact that maybe they are so wrapped up in their own selves to think of how it harms others. But it really boils down the them wanting to be more woman than a trans woman. That just isn't possible. Trans women are just as womanly as cis gendered women and especially as womanly as any HBS woman.
Wow, now who's being divisive?
How about not wanting the stigma? Or being defined by a birth defect / genetic anomoly?
Quote from: Mister on March 10, 2009, 11:35:40 PM
Wow, now who's being divisive?
How about not wanting the stigma? Or being defined by a birth defect / genetic anomoly?
Honey, if they think that defines them, they have deeper issues than being trans/HBS. It doesn't define me or give me a stigma. It is just something else about me. Much like the fact that I'm of Native American decent, or that I have brown hair.
Ashley,
You're right -- the only problem is divissiveness. But I don't think that all the people who don't see the word "transgender" as applying them (for whatever reason) are divissive -- see Ashley's video, for example. (I assume you're not the same Ashley! :)) There are some here as well who don't make a big deal about it. I just don't think that liking the lingo should be a litmus test. That would be like saying you have to identify as "Negro" to accept a scholarship from the UNCF or "Colored" to accept legal help from the NAACP. The language changes and will continue to change.
~Alyssa
Quote from: Ashley315 on March 10, 2009, 11:44:05 PM
Honey, if they think that defines them, they have deeper issues than being trans/HBS. It doesn't define me or give me a stigma. It is just something else about me. Much like the fact that I'm of Native American decent, or that I have brown hair.
You don't get to decide if something has stigma or not. Brown hair certainly doesn't, but a sex change does.
Also, please don't use fake terms of endearment with me. Thank you.
I agree, it is just a label. But it's when some use that label to hold others down that it becomes a problem.
Quote from: Ashley315 on March 10, 2009, 11:50:32 PM
I agree, it is just a label. But it's when some use that label to hold others down that it becomes a problem.
totally. but cowardice and shame aren't the reasons why it's discarded.
Quote from: Mister on March 10, 2009, 11:35:40 PM
Wow, now who's being divisive?
How about not wanting the stigma? Or being defined by a birth defect / genetic anomoly?
How about being selfish. They want what the GLBT rights movement can give them without wanting to help push it along. Why simply because of fear.
What happens when society mandates a chromosome test and says that you can't marry unless your partner has different sex chromosomes than you do. They are doing it to the gay and lesbians. It's a very small step to saying we are not human either. Don't think they won't do it, if they win with taking human rights away from gays. You have to fight for your rights. Part of that right is not to have to hide and to still be accepted as who you are, not just because they don't know your past.
If you allow your past to define you, you are doing it wrong.
A closet is a closet, it doesn't matter if it's a closet you are in because you don't want others to think you abnormal, or one you are in because you think if they don't know you were born trans, then you are what society considers normal.
This my dears is also what allows bigots to justify the trans-panic defenses when they murder us.
Topic locked.