In the discussions we talked about no gender. I would be interested if any felt this way, especially here at a transgender message board. Just curious.
Neutrois
http://neutrois.0catch.com/defin.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrois
Can you describe to me what exactly no gender is?? I know what a blended sex identity is, but no gender, I am interested!
peace,
Taylor
Quoting the definition
QuotePeople identifying themselves as neutrois feel as if they are neither male or female, and often wish to lose all physical characteristics of their assigned gender (breasts, penis, hair growth, etc).
QuoteNeutrois means non-gendered class. A Neutrois is someone who identifies as being non-gendered and seeks to lose the major physical signifiers that indicate gender to others (breasts, facial and body hair, crotch bulges, etc). Neutrois are not androgynes, but do pursue an androgynous appearance. They are uniquely bound by their gender dysphoria in that they find both male and female orientations wrong. Because of this, transitioning from an assigned gender, to either male, or female identities is not an acceptable solution.
Within Neutrois, there are two types. FTNs (Female-to-Neutrois) seek to lose the physical traits that cause them to be socially read and treated as women. Most demonized of the female traits are breasts, round hips, and feminine voices. Some despise their vaginal regions and menstrual cycles enough to desire hysterectomies, oophorectomies, and vaginal nullification. Juvenile and adolescent sexual abuse can be a contributing factor in this wish, but is not always the case. Other FTNs are not as affected by their pubic regions and are content to dismiss them as irrelevant under clothing.
MTNs (Male-to-Neutrois) seek to lose the physical traits which cause them to be read and treated as men. Most commonly, those traits are facial and body hair, deep voice pitch, rough skin, and crotch bulge. While some may desire being rendered Eunuchs through castration and penile nullification; most gaff/tuck, or train their sexual organs to lie flatter. A special point should be mentioned that Eunuchs are not necessarily Neutrois. Many Eunuchs still identify as men.
That is interesting info. Thanks for sending it on to me.
Peace,
Taylor
3 out of the 60 of emerald's poll at https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,5300.0.html mentioned:
QuoteUngendered - I have no gender. I am neither a woman, a man, or a member of any other gender. - 3 (3.8%)
So I assume you visit the pages, just not getting the chance to post much about it, that I have seen.
Feel free to talk about it.
I'm one of these no-gender Androgynes (aka agender, aka non-gender, aka ungendered ).
I never identified as male or female.
Let me see if I can explain what that is like...
Being without gender means I would have been just as happy in a male body.
Let me restate that again because it's important:
I would have been just as happy if I'd been born with a male body. Either sex or a blend of the two would have been an equally fine vessel to me! I'm quite pleased with the aesthetics of the body I have, feel no need to alter it to appear more male, female, or anything in between.
Other people see me as unmistakably female and call me "she" or "ma'am" (it's a Southern thing), but being called 'sir' would cause me no grief.
Growing up without a gender identity wasn't a problem. I knew without doubt I had a female body. In school we were often divided up according to sex, the reasons for it were logical to me. I had no issues using a bathroom designed for my anatomy (the men's room works just as well of course, all have a place to sit down). I enjoyed 'girls' games as much as 'boys' games. Yet Barbie dolls held no fascination for me, and granted, I was not as strong as the average male and didn't like a lot of rough and tumble play. Still, I was often referred to as a tomboy. Gender extremes were for me... extreme. I was blessed with parents that never told me, "That's for boys!" or "That's for girls!". Annoyingly, other people did tell me such things. I paid little attention to their words, couldn't see the logic in that point of view. As a child I requested (and received!) a boys bicycle rather than a girls because boys bikes seemed sturdier. I grew up having my own mind, happy with who and what I was.
One of the biggest shocks of my life was to discover most people, upon meeting another human being, make a first judgment to categorize whether or not they are male or female. I always met 'people'!!! Making note of others' sex came long after I had taken note of others' virtues, intelligence, honesty, pleasantness, beauty, etc.
If I'm around an identifying masculine male I'm aware of the strong contrast. If in the presence of a very feminine-minded woman I also realize a striking difference. I exist between the two genders, perhaps outside of it, beyond gender, transcending gender.... I am simply and fully human.
Psychologically, I have a blessed mix of things usually attributed to one sex or the other. My tested spacial and mechanical aptitudes exceed that of the average male. High in math skills and leadership abilities. Enjoy fishing and hunting. On the 'gentle sex' side I have a desire to nurture. Empathetic. High communication skills. I manifest co-operation as apposed to competition. Strong sense of aesthetics.
My wardrobe expresses personality... not gender. Fully half or more of my clothing is menswear. I wear what looks best on my physique, what feels comfortable, what is appropriate for the occasion, and easy to wash and dry. Logical, yes? On special occasions you may find me in a floral dress as easily as a tux and tails. Casually, much of what I wear might be considered unisex were it not for the shifting placement of the buttons. I wear panties and a bra as standard attire for my comfort... and to a degree, my culture. I sleep in satin nightgowns as often as I slumber in mens silk boxers and a t-shirt.
I do not try to pass as male.... never tried. Don't know I could pull it off but I think it would be great fun to drag king for a night on the town!
So there you have it!
Physical sex: Female.
Presentation: Eccentric human female.
Orientation: Sapiosexual, Pansexual, Androphile.
Wardrobe: Mixed - Mens, Womens, Unisex.
Gender: None - Neither male nor female, nor any other gender.
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
I'm beginning to believe that I may be Neutrois. This whole time, I have been unable to present as female, but couldn't figure out why until I first saw the definition of Neutrois. Even then, it took me a week because I can be dim. I think I just assumed I must be a TS when I finally admitted to myself that I wasn't a man. I mean, who would think that there's any place to go other than female?
I have no problems with this really, however, I am just beginning to process it. I can't identify with either gender and I don't know if this is a good thing. One thing that I haven't read, but I'll bet is natural for us is that those of us who get the dysphoria probably get it at puberty. This makes sense to me because I don't believe I was conscious of gender in any way until my body betrayed me.
Also, the body mod descriptions of an MtN Neutrois seems to fit the body image that I desired for myself since at least puberty.
I'm glad I started hanging around the Androgyne forums. I guess I'll have to create a new symbol for my signature.
Very interesting. Many years ago, I figured if I wasn't male, then I must be a woman. My feelings of dysphoria were very intense during the time, so I did a year plus of RLT, therapy, etc. At a certain point I came to the conclusion that I wasn't woman either, and for quite a while identified as M2F2?
QuoteNeutrois are not androgynes, but do pursue an androgynous appearance. They are uniquely bound by their gender dysphoria in that they find both male and female orientations wrong. Because of this, transitioning from an assigned gender, to either male, or female identities is not an acceptable solution.
Since joining these message boards last fall, I've fit in best with the androgyne section, but sometimes question if that's what I really am. If there were no health risks involved, I would probably choose to do HRT so as to develop female secondary sex characteristics, without the need for surgery. I do feel that neither gender quite fits, perhaps I am neutrois... I'll think about it.
QuoteI guess I'll have to create a new symbol for my signature.
Many years ago I drew a circle with both the plus and arrow, but not sure how to do that with the computer for my signature.
zythyra
Hi Zythyra,
I'm trying to come up with a variety of symbols for people to choose from. My idea is to offer a colored and an uncolored version. People could just take an uncolored version and use windows paint (or a better program) to fill in the white parts so that they could individualize their preferred symbol.
I just need more time. I've been tied up more than usual.
Maybe you'll see something you like when I'm done.
I am continually amazed at how diverse the gender (and non-gender ;)) spectrum is. This is very interesting.
I think it's time that the Gender marker on the profiles be updated to include a wider variety of options ;)
Sarah
Quote from: Sarah B on June 11, 2007, 09:43:22 PM
I am continually amazed at how diverse the gender (and non-gender ;)) spectrum is. This is very interesting.
I think it's time that the Gender marker on the profiles be updated to include a wider variety of options ;)
Sarah
Hi Sarah,
Sarah was my grandmother's name. Cool.
I initially started out to create markers for the profiles, but haven't done the creating part yet.
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 11, 2007, 10:33:07 PM
Hi Sarah,
Sarah was my grandmother's name. Cool.
I initially started out to create markers for the profiles, but haven't done the creating part yet.
That'll be cool. Can't wait to see them. If I were in the least bit creative (in art that is) I would offer my assistance, but alas, I am all logic here :P
Sarah
what about a blank circle?
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 12, 2007, 10:44:32 AM
what about a blank circle?
I have done presentations where I represent gender as a circle.
-male-both-female-neither-
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 12, 2007, 10:44:32 AM
what about a blank circle?
Yes!
I'm genderless (on the inside) but not neutrois. It's my understanding that people who are neutrois want to rid themselves of gender indicators. I'm simply passively genderless. I don't think of myself as woman or man but I don't deny that I have 50 years of woman baggage. (It's not as heavy as it sounds.)
-- Sue
At least you get to spread it out. I have to carry my man baggage between my legs. :icon_cute:
There are some symbols here at this place http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_symbol
I think I found the motherlode here - http://www.decodeunicode.org/w3.php?nodeId=70064&page=1&lang=2&zoom=&prop=
For anyone who wants to see some of what's already available.
I'm looking for more. I've been weird about finding symbols lately. It's like I could never identify with or as anything, but now I have a true sense of identity.
QuoteThere are some symbols here at this place http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_symbol
Thanks, I found the one that I've wanted to use in my sig line, and will add it as soon as I can figure out how to do it.
zythyra
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 12, 2007, 01:25:32 PM
At least you get to spread it out. I have to carry my man baggage between my legs. :icon_cute:
*sigh* You made me think of Nutella (prounounced
neutella), the Hazelnut Chocolate spread. http://www.nutellausa.com/
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 13, 2007, 09:12:36 AM
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 12, 2007, 01:25:32 PM
At least you get to spread it out. I have to carry my man baggage between my legs. :icon_cute:
*sigh* You made me think of Nutella (prounounced neutella), the Hazelnut Chocolate spread. http://www.nutellausa.com/
Please do not provide the Pica with ideas
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 13, 2007, 10:41:05 AM
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 13, 2007, 09:12:36 AM
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 12, 2007, 01:25:32 PM
At least you get to spread it out. I have to carry my man baggage between my legs. :icon_cute:
*sigh* You made me think of Nutella (prounounced neutella), the Hazelnut Chocolate spread. http://www.nutellausa.com/
Please do not provide the Pica with ideas
Of course spreading Nutella on a person could also work as an exfoliant.
Hey Rebecca, Neutrois (& is it pronounced 'new twaa'?) is kinda sorta like thinking on neither side of the fence isn't it?
love
nota
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 13, 2007, 12:40:26 PM
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 13, 2007, 10:41:05 AM
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 13, 2007, 09:12:36 AM
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 12, 2007, 01:25:32 PM
At least you get to spread it out. I have to carry my man baggage between my legs. :icon_cute:
*sigh* You made me think of Nutella (prounounced neutella), the Hazelnut Chocolate spread. http://www.nutellausa.com/
Please do not provide the Pica with ideas
Of course spreading Nutella on a person could also work as an exfoliant.
I suppose I could make this conversation deteriorate further by just saying one word...
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 13, 2007, 12:47:04 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 13, 2007, 12:40:26 PM
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 13, 2007, 10:41:05 AM
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 13, 2007, 09:12:36 AM
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 12, 2007, 01:25:32 PM
At least you get to spread it out. I have to carry my man baggage between my legs. :icon_cute:
*sigh* You made me think of Nutella (prounounced neutella), the Hazelnut Chocolate spread. http://www.nutellausa.com/
Please do not provide the Pica with ideas
Of course spreading Nutella on a person could also work as an exfoliant.
I suppose I could make this conversation deteriorate further by just saying one word...
dare ya
Quote from: None of the Above on June 13, 2007, 12:46:54 PM
Hey Rebecca, Neutrois (& is it pronounced 'new twaa'?) is kinda sorta like thinking on neither side of the fence isn't it?
love
nota
Actually, yes. I have many adjustments to make.
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 13, 2007, 01:12:29 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 13, 2007, 12:47:04 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 13, 2007, 12:40:26 PM
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 13, 2007, 10:41:05 AM
Please do not provide the Pica with ideas
Of course spreading Nutella on a person could also work as an exfoliant.
I suppose I could make this conversation deteriorate further by just saying one word...
dare ya
I already did... https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,10184.msg110447.html#msg110447
I see.
I always thought Orchiedectomy was an island north of Scotland till I tried Carling Black Label.
Who describes the wee dangly fellows as 'orchies' anyway?
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 13, 2007, 10:41:05 AM
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 13, 2007, 09:12:36 AM
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 12, 2007, 01:25:32 PM
At least you get to spread it out. I have to carry my man baggage between my legs. :icon_cute:
*sigh* You made me think of Nutella (prounounced neutella), the Hazelnut Chocolate spread. http://www.nutellausa.com/
Please do not provide the Pica with ideas
For some reason, I have the feeling that it's too late and Pica already has the Hazels and the Chocolate and is preparing to whip up a batch all hir own.
And Pica...you don't have to carry it...just let it "drag" like the rest of the boyz. (I know...please forgive me. My only excuse is that it has been one of
those days.)
.......Laurie
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 13, 2007, 02:23:01 PM
Quote from: None of the Above on June 13, 2007, 12:46:54 PM
Hey Rebecca, Neutrois (& is it pronounced 'new twaa'?) is kinda sorta like thinking on neither side of the fence isn't it?
love
nota
Actually, yes. I have many adjustments to make.
I am finding that neither/nor is a very liberating idea.
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 13, 2007, 04:45:32 PM
I always thought Orchiedectomy was an island north of Scotland till I tried Carling Black Label.
Nutella tasts orchiodectable.
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 13, 2007, 09:18:53 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 13, 2007, 04:45:32 PM
I always thought Orchiedectomy was an island north of Scotland till I tried Carling Black Label.
Nutella tasts orchiodectable.
Yuck.
Quote from: LaurieO on June 13, 2007, 04:47:48 PM
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 13, 2007, 10:41:05 AM
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 13, 2007, 09:12:36 AM
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 12, 2007, 01:25:32 PM
At least you get to spread it out. I have to carry my man baggage between my legs. :icon_cute:
*sigh* You made me think of Nutella (prounounced neutella), the Hazelnut Chocolate spread. http://www.nutellausa.com/
Please do not provide the Pica with ideas
For some reason, I have the feeling that it's too late and Pica already has the Hazels and the Chocolate and is preparing to whip up a batch all hir own.
And Pica...you don't have to carry it...just let it "drag" like the rest of the boyz. (I know...please forgive me. My only excuse is that it has been one of those days.)
.......Laurie
Ouch.
Quote from: None of the Above on June 13, 2007, 06:11:12 PM
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 13, 2007, 02:23:01 PM
Quote from: None of the Above on June 13, 2007, 12:46:54 PM
Hey Rebecca, Neutrois (& is it pronounced 'new twaa'?) is kinda sorta like thinking on neither side of the fence isn't it?
love
nota
Actually, yes. I have many adjustments to make.
I am finding that neither/nor is a very liberating idea.
I feel it's quite scary. Like getting lost in a huge field of snow without a map.
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 14, 2007, 11:24:42 AM
Quote from: None of the Above on June 13, 2007, 06:11:12 PM
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 13, 2007, 02:23:01 PM
Quote from: None of the Above on June 13, 2007, 12:46:54 PM
Hey Rebecca, Neutrois (& is it pronounced 'new twaa'?) is kinda sorta like thinking on neither side of the fence isn't it?
love
nota
Actually, yes. I have many adjustments to make.
I am finding that neither/nor is a very liberating idea.
I feel it's quite scary. Like getting lost in a huge field of snow without a map.
Me too. I've been adrift since the idea hit me.
I'll grow into it, though.
It's just that your whole life, you think 'male' 'female' then it's neither.
But, Neither, is too new of a concept.
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 14, 2007, 12:59:37 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 14, 2007, 11:24:42 AM
I feel it's quite scary. Like getting lost in a huge field of snow without a map.
Me too. I've been adrift since the idea hit me.
I'll grow into it, though.
It's just that your whole life, you think 'male' 'female' then it's neither.
But, Neither, is too new of a concept.
You haven't realised just how scary yet. There's another step going from saying, "I am neither gender," to saying, "gender is a null concept." Instead of getting lost in a field of snow, it's like getting lost but there's no field.
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 14, 2007, 01:07:13 PM
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 14, 2007, 12:59:37 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 14, 2007, 11:24:42 AM
I feel it's quite scary. Like getting lost in a huge field of snow without a map.
Me too. I've been adrift since the idea hit me.
I'll grow into it, though.
It's just that your whole life, you think 'male' 'female' then it's neither.
But, Neither, is too new of a concept.
You haven't realised just how scary yet. There's another step going from saying, "I am neither gender," to saying, "gender is a null concept."
Oh No.
You mean we are going to die again and go through another rebirth?
I thought I was through with being born. Hopefully, I'm better equipped than I have ever been in my life.
I guess I should write a goodbye letter to the TS's in the other forum. They were kind to me, but now I don't belong. :'( I'm tearing up. :'( Seriously. :'(
QuoteYou haven't realised just how scary yet. There's another step going from saying, "I am neither gender," to saying, "gender is a null concept." Instead of getting lost in a field of snow, it's like getting lost but there's no field.
It isn't so much that I consider gender to be a null concept, it's more that I don't believe in only two genders. I guess that's pretty scary to our binary society though ;D
zythyra (happily neither)
Quote from: zythyra on June 14, 2007, 01:26:08 PM
QuoteYou haven't realised just how scary yet. There's another step going from saying, "I am neither gender," to saying, "gender is a null concept." Instead of getting lost in a field of snow, it's like getting lost but there's no field.
It isn't so much that I consider gender to be a null concept, it's more that I don't believe in only two genders. I guess that's pretty scary to our binary society though ;D
zythyra (happily neither)
I like the idea of scaring the binaries. Maybe that is my new mission in life.
Quote from: None of the Above on June 13, 2007, 06:11:12 PM
Hey Rebecca, Neutrois (& is it pronounced 'new twaa'?) is kinda sorta like thinking on neither side of the fence isn't it?
love
nota
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 13, 2007, 02:23:01 PM
Actually, yes. I have many adjustments to make.
Quote from: None of the Above on June 13, 2007, 06:11:12 PM
I am finding that neither/nor is a very liberating idea.
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 14, 2007, 11:24:42 AM
I feel it's quite scary. Like getting lost in a huge field of snow without a map.
I think it's more like
lost in space and I'm June Lockhart and Billy Mumy both
nota
I wish I were June Lockhart.
I hugely crushed on June when that show was on regular tv. In the eighties she and Bill Mumy hung out and went to punk shows in La La Land, so I think she is sehr hip too.
wait is 'neither.nor' the same as 'both'?
MU!
Quote from: None of the Above on June 14, 2007, 07:27:14 PM
wait is 'neither.nor' the same as 'both'?
Yes and no.
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 14, 2007, 01:11:42 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 14, 2007, 01:07:13 PM
You haven't realised just how scary yet. There's another step going from saying, "I am neither gender," to saying, "gender is a null concept."
Oh No.
You mean we are going to die again and go through another rebirth?
I thought I was through with being born. Hopefully, I'm better equipped than I have ever been in my life.
I guess I should write a goodbye letter to the TS's in the other forum. They were kind to me, but now I don't belong. :'( I'm tearing up. :'( Seriously. :'(
Heck no. The rebirth thing is all an illusion too.
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 15, 2007, 08:27:36 AM
Quote from: None of the Above on June 14, 2007, 07:27:14 PM
wait is 'neither.nor' the same as 'both'?
Yes and no.
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 14, 2007, 01:11:42 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 14, 2007, 01:07:13 PM
You haven't realised just how scary yet. There's another step going from saying, "I am neither gender," to saying, "gender is a null concept."
Oh No.
You mean we are going to die again and go through another rebirth?
I thought I was through with being born. Hopefully, I'm better equipped than I have ever been in my life.
I guess I should write a goodbye letter to the TS's in the other forum. They were kind to me, but now I don't belong. :'( I'm tearing up. :'( Seriously. :'(
Heck no. The rebirth thing is all an illusion too.
I'm speaking in a Jungian context, not a reincarnation type thing. In the past 2 to 3 years, I have died several times and suffered the fun of birth.
Unless.... you are saying that you
don't believe in the
Jung. In which case, you have wounded me with a severity that is beyond comprehension. :P
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 15, 2007, 08:41:38 AM
Unless.... you are saying that you don't believe in the Jung. In which case, you have wounded me with a severity that is beyond comprehension. :P
Oh, heck no. I believe Jung was onto things that science still hasn't caught up to. I don't think he was always right about how he interpretted them, but if you view an archetype as the mental manifestation of instinctive knowledge... The version of his theories that influenced Jean M. Auel in
The Clan of the Cave Bear is nonsense. But Jung's assertion that the archetypes of parenthood, gender, and god are built into our genes is only logical. Research in evolutionary psychology is beginning to find that he was right.