I have a couple of questions for anyone who is willing to answer them. I was posed a question and it spawned some more questions. I would love to hear what other peoples answers are.
1) What do you define a woman as, like what does that mean to you to be a woman?
2) If you have an idealized version of a woman what does that entail? What is she like? Is it in the essence of being a female? If so, how much of that essence are socially expected roles/traits/appearances (for example there is a really great documentary series called killing us softly about objectification of women in media - you should check it out if your interested in the topic)?
3) Do you think you'd feel the same way if you were in a different country? American society has very different gender expectations of females from other countries, villages, tribes, etc...so the definition changes. I guess what I'm trying to ask is how much of what your going through do you relate to nature-that is the biological makeup of sex and nurture- the socially acceptable traits/behaviors/attitudes of a woman that you are consciously planning on adopting in your transition? Both are heavily debated when it comes to gender as to what is more influential but not one is considered to be the only factor.
Happy to join a discussion
If I was in a country orsociety that totally debased females I would still want to change my sex. My desire to transition is not based on the "glory" of western femininity. My problem is that I am mentally female, and outwordly male.
In a society or culture that is not female friendly I still would feel the same.
It must be hell for FtM in that situation.
Not sure if this is what you were aiming at.
Cindy James
In some societies age makes a difference in how a female is viewed. For example: senorita, senora and dona. Each individuals personality would be a major factor.
I have taken this composition from my blog and posted it here, I believe that it answers some of the questions asked on this thread.
For me it was very much like combination awakening and a recall.
For me it was an inner wisdom never before taped. A knowing and joining of both the psychological and spiritual in harmony with my awakening to the spheres of reality, true reality in the order and harmony of universe and not the **falsehoods and lies,** that those who would oppress the free thoughts and emotions of a woman. You need to reawaken and see the world through different eyes. The eyes and embracing arms of a caring, loving nurturing heart.
Eyes that are able to perceive the simplest of harmonies in nature, and to be aware of the elements and the dualities of darkness and light that is all around us. The same elements we live and share with the denizens of the wilderness which is the cradle of all sentient living things, just as you would embrace new life in your arms that is part of you.
You will feel emotions such as love and compassion to such depth and intensity like never before experienced,
It is a soul awakening which contains rivers of ardent tears of sorrow, as well as impassioned feelings of laughter, happiness and contentment.
No more shall this new light be mired by infusions of bewilderment and confusion as your heart will be at peace and tranquility will reign within, no mater who seeks to repress and imprison you, your soul shall always be free.
Does true reality hidden in nature exist only in children's story books and the mother telling the story to her child?
Mankind chooses to discard these wonderful gifts of nature in pursuit of the material things for which they will rape, pillage and slowly kill Mother Earth for their own greedy needs of power and riches, just to be false kings of the material world.
Your new life can embrace so much more beauty and bliss in life just by being in harmony and having compassion for the people and the environment around you like they were your own progeny assigned to you to care for on this journey.
Love a child, help a needy, accept both nature and man into the bosom of your heart
But first of all be patient and enjoy the journey, for it is the experience of the journey, not the destination that is the most exciting and meaningful part of life.
Cindy
I've often wondered if my desire to be a girl when I was little was because of the male and female stereotypes at the time. (Probably.) I managed to get through much of my life as, essentially, a gay man who was sexually attracted to women. (Fitting into another stereotype.) When I finally started dealing with my gender issues this time, I thought if I could be a successful crossdresser I would be happy. As I've talked to more and more of my friends, I realize I want the whole thing: hormones, vagina, sexual harassment. My understanding of what a woman is keeps growing. I don't know if I can be one in society, but I know in many ways I always have been one.
Being a woman is not just dress or behavior. It's not just physical features and menses. I *think* I no longer think of it in an idealized way. But I'd like to join the club and live out the rest of my life as a woman. I am finding that I am shedding the constricting skin of maleness in this society that confined me for so long. I think perhaps I can finally be myself as a woman. I am more open as a novice woman, and I love it.
- Kate
Quote from: K8 on March 31, 2009, 07:21:52 AM
Being a woman is not just dress or behavior. It's not just physical features and menses.
- Kate
Can you elaborate on this?
I was raised and conditioned to feel like a male but never felt right. The way I perceived the world around me was not the same as the other boys. In earlier years I can't say I felt like a boy or a girl, although I preferred playing with girls. I felt more like, androgynous, not one or the other, although I could identify more like girls felt about certain things.
Especially the more profound deep feelings. I couldn't understand why boys thought that such feelings were taboo to them. (Stereotyping) yes there was a lot of that back in my younger days. A line that clearly defined one from the other. There was no blurring of the line like one finds in today's society.
But for me, being a woman, I guess I am somewhat from the old school. It is not stereotyping, but more like establishing myself, drawing my own line as to where I feel my individuality to be, I am me! So people have always though of me as being odd or one french fry short of a happy meal.
But I do blend in quite well with others out there in society. I don't make waves I keep a low profile, that characteristic hasn't changed any, but I can be quite a chatter box at gatherings and it is my choice of topics that some may find me rather odd, but I also have a good sense of humor.
But I will say that if you wanna be a woman? You can't go around acting like a guy or vice verse. It is entirely up to the individual on how he/she wishes to behave, it is entirely their prerogative and their choice.
But for me I am a woman, therefor I breath, move, live, behave, feel and think like the woman 24/7, after a time it is as natural as breathing. Once I knew who it was that resided within me, who I truly was, there was never any great confusion except as to how where and when would I come out presenting and living as my true self.
Behaviour is instinctive, and once you surrender to the true self and add the magic elixir of estrogen, the estrogen releases the flood gates that had for so many years holding back the flood waters of my female personality. Everything else falls into place instinctively over time.
(Disclaimer) Just a generalization no one in particular.
Cindy
Being a woman is nothing more than a state of mind. If you think it you are it, no questions asked. There are no right or wrong ways to be a woman (or a man for that matter). Gender is a social idea and it changes from region to region and over time.
The real question is.. if the gender roles as we know them were reversed, how would you feel about yourself then? Lets just say that everything we think of as being feminine and masculine were switched completely around. Would you still feel the same way about everything or would you be happy in the gender role you were born?
Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet? I feel the way I am now and to be sure it ain't what I felt from others of the supposedly same gender I was raised to think I was as a kid.
I am an empath and can feel other peoples feelings and I will say that we all have our own unique individual way of feeling about things, both male and female. Now that may appear to be subtle to most on the outside, but it is quite an astronomical differencess in depth on the inside.
Going back? literally? My answer would be, over my dead body.
Cindy
Quote from: Valerie Elizabeth on March 31, 2009, 08:54:36 AM
Can you elaborate on this?
This still isn't really clear in my own mind, but as I journey down this road I am finding that distinctly women's clothes (skirts, heels, etc.) are less important to me than they were. Makeup is still new to me, and so I am still taking a lot of pleasure in that.
Cindy and Ashley have described it well. I think what I was trying to say in my earlier post is that being a woman is attitude, identifying with other women, feeling more at peace with other women than with men.
I am finding, too, that it is an openness to those around me that I didn't experience when I was trying to be a man. As I learn more to be a woman, I am more expressive and more receptive to others than I used to be. I would love to be identified as a woman, but even if I can't get there this openness to others is a gift I love and didn't expect.
- Kate
I think I would be the same person, no matter what gender you want to call it. I do think however there is a factor in the male/female anatomical dichotomy that dictates some of our social behaviors and attitudes. The old innie/outie, yin/yang thang. :) Other than that, women do smell sweeter than men, sorry lol (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cosgan.de%2Fimages%2Fmore%2Fflowers%2F076.gif&hash=42c13fe5441b719a8a4befa6dce6ac8488c31ecf)
Valerie,
1) Being a woman is much like being a human (to look more broadly) or a member of my family (to look core closely). I feel connection to other people just by recognizing our commonality as people; I feel connected to my family by seeing myself reflected in them, and them in me. I have always felt more natural kinship with women than men. Women are my family, for better or for worse.
2) I don't really have an "idealized" woman; rather there are a number of women that I either know personally or know from literature or history that I admire and wish I could be like.
3) I'm pretty sure that I'd still feel that kinship with women. However, I'd likely construct a different model for understanding it depending on the culture.
Quote from: Ashley315 on March 31, 2009, 02:02:50 PM
The real question is.. if the gender roles as we know them were reversed, how would you feel about yourself then? Lets just say that everything we think of as being feminine and masculine were switched completely around. Would you still feel the same way about everything or would you be happy in the gender role you were born?
That's an interesting question, but I can't really grasp the premise. Yes, I get the words, but I don't know what would be meant be a world where gender roles are "reversed." I have lots of attributes that I see as feminine, that is, attributes I see reflected in many women that I meet. So I guess the question is whether I see that more because I have more of those traits, or because I'm more likely to see those traits in women? I guess the answer is: yes, both. Perhaps I have more of those traits
because I see them in women.
Quote from: Ashley315 on March 31, 2009, 02:02:50 PM
The real question is.. if the gender roles as we know them were reversed, how would you feel about yourself then? Lets just say that everything we think of as being feminine and masculine were switched completely around. Would you still feel the same way about everything or would you be happy in the gender role you were born?
What exactly are we saying here? Do we mean just social/cultural traits but with the same anatomy? Because I'd think guys would look funny in girls clothing... I mean the question seems to make sense on (virtual) paper, but I'm not sure it translates to the real world.
Quote from: FairyGirl on March 31, 2009, 07:36:17 PM
I think I would be the same person, no matter what gender you want to call it. I do think however there is a factor in the male/female anatomical dichotomy that dictates some of our social behaviors and attitudes. The old innie/outie, yin/yang thang. :) Other than that, women do smell sweeter than men, sorry lol (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cosgan.de%2Fimages%2Fmore%2Fflowers%2F076.gif&hash=42c13fe5441b719a8a4befa6dce6ac8488c31ecf)
I don't agree with the statement that anatomy dictates any social behaviors. I've seen every aspect of both genders in both genders. Thus the reason we have "masculine" acting women and "feminine" acting men. It isn't all hormonal either because some of the most feminine acting men that I've known in my life have been tested and had tons of testosterone flowing all through them... I do not know of any masculine acting women who have been tested but I'm sure their results would be the same... (plenty of estrogen).
The thing is, we don't really know anything about the human body really... especially not the human brain. It is a mystery to us, and we have only begun to learn the functions of it.
Gender is nothing more than an idea. Like I said, it is ever changing and ever evolving. There is no act or behavior that is specifically male or female...
To me being a woman is more than gender. It is more like an attitude. Women seem to have an air about themselves, of power mixed with grace. And not just a controlling type of power. It is a power of inner strength and confidence. And a grace of movement and of mind. I have always felt that power and grace within myself, but I was hampered by the socialization of being born in a male body. As I grow as the woman I am now, I find that the power and grace grows within me.
And keeping that in mind, I do have an idealized woman in my mind. And if I am half the woman she was, I will count myself likely. She was strong, spoke her mind in time when women weren't suppose to. She had a strong sense of family and of how the world should operate, without prejudices. She was open minded and fair to all kinds of people. I think if she had know about me now, she would have called me 'Daughter'. This idealized woman was my Mother. It was sad to have seen her slip into the old senile woman she became in the end. It was not the woman I idolized.
I would still have worked to become a woman, regardless of what country I would be born in. I think that this is more than nurture, but more like nature. It has been shown that many different types of people existed throughout history. Sexuality and gender are fluid and are more innate than being created from without the self. What causes this is unknown, but I think that it is part of the human experience.
Humans can and do shift between the two binary genders and sometimes blend the two. Are the masculine men really true men? I don't think so, they are more created by society than being born that way. Are the feminine women really true women? Again I don't think so, they are more created by society than being born that way.
So who are true men? And who are true women? They are the people who are freer about themselves and are not shamed of that. Women can be rough and tumble, just as men can be nuturing and caring. More and more people are becoming true humans. Stay at home Dads. Women working to support their families.
I think the the Feminist movement opened the doors to people showing their true nature, by pushing for women to be allowed to do what they wanted and to be paid as their male counterparts. And men used that to start their own agenda to become the caregivers in their families. It will be a great day when the binary genders are just an old fashion state of mind. And it will be a step forward in human evolution.
IMHO,
Janet
Hi, Janet, hun. Me thinks maybe we had the same mom. :D
QuoteAnd keeping that in mind, I do have an idealized woman in my mind. And if I am half the woman she was, I will count myself likely. She was strong, spoke her mind in time when women weren't suppose to. She had a strong sense of family and of how the world should operate, without prejudices. She was open minded and fair to all kinds of people. I think if she had know about me now, she would have called me 'Daughter'. This idealized woman was my Mother. It was sad to have seen her slip into the old senile woman she became in the end. It was not the woman I idolized.
I would still have worked to become a woman, regardless of what country I would be born in. I think that this is more than nurture, but more like nature. It has been shown that many different types of people existed throughout history. Sexuality and gender are fluid and are more innate than being created from without the self. What causes this is unknown, but I think that it is part of the human experience.
I also believe that the roles of female and male, mom, dad, warrior, hunter, farmer, gatherer, etc., may be instinctive but that does not mean that under certain circumstances the roles cannot be switched. There is more of that today because of the way the structure of society has changed. Maybe some or a lot to do with women's lib but I also believe that it was also necessity in the changing dichotomy and roles of how we or whom is earning a living has also greatly changed.
When I was with my ex I did both the mom and dad role, that is, I worked outside the home and looked after the kids. I sent them to school in the morning before going to work and I was home when they got home. I cooked for them, bathed them, changed diapers, cleaned house, did small house repairs and car repairs, mowed the lawn, shoveled the snow, and found time to go to PTA meetings. Do I know about nurturing? No one taught me, it came instinctively.
QuoteThe real question is.. if the gender roles as we know them were reversed, how would you feel about yourself then? Lets just say that everything we think of as being feminine and masculine were switched completely around. Would you still feel the same way about everything or would you be happy in the gender role you were born?
I took a stab at that question earlier but I am not really certain if I understand it either.
If I was a cisgendered male, would I still want to be a woman? I doubt it. But since I had the male anatomy and felt alien to my own body I believe that I would have transitioned regardless of the country I was living in. Considering the severity of GID when I arrived at the door step to transitioning, it would have been to be me or to commit hari kari in the trying.
Living with GID and not transition? All bets would have been off, I would have been better off dead.
But today I am me, I love me and I feel comfortable being the me I should have always have been to begin with.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2Fnativeprinces-1.jpg&hash=3a44d9b48a3e9f25835caf0a43ee01fb45360213)
Cindy
The definition of male and female does keep evolving. Or is it what are male traits and what are female.
I may suggest that some of the most macho males, particularly the stereotypical ones may be uncomfortable with their "lot" in life.
Similarily I remember seeing an interview with Roger Van Damm who was married to both Ursala Andress and Biridget Bardot (at different times ;)). He said that both were miserable in their beauty, not wanting to go out in public for fear of not being the "gorgeous woman". I find both conditions sad.
Is the liberation of gender identity happening. I know and I'm sure many of you know, the stay at home Dad's and the go to work Mum's relationships. Neither partner is GID they are loving and careing partners. But they have identified each others roles(?) in a pragmatic way.
How many of us have heard elderly men say :"I wish I could have enjoyed my childrens' life, but I had to work to keep the family"
I'm probably getting off the point.
Cindy James
I agree with FairyGirl. I think part of it is the anatomy thing - outward and pushing vs. opening and receiving. Part of it is socialization, although the socialization began from the anatomy thing and the fact that women bear children who need years of care. The male body has greater upper-body strength. Males are better at locating the source of a sound. There are sexual differences.
Years ago, commuting on the interstate I got cut off by an aggressive woman driver. I thought: perhaps we are liberated now since women can be just as big jerks as men. I think the women's lib movement freed men as well as women. When I grew up in the 50s, men were as boxed into their roles as were women.
If I can succeed in becoming a fulltime woman, I'm not sure how different I will be. I'm sure I will be freer and more open, but I'll still want to ride my motorcycle and paint the house when it needs it. I hope I will be a better friend to my friends (freer and more open...). I think I will feel more at peace with myself (freer and more open...). I don't know, but I hope to be able to find out. ;D
Hmmm, for me its simply a state of being my mind is wired to be. For example, I always had to do manly things to prove I was a man. All the while wishing I was all woman. Even with all my fear-fueled conditioning for decades its way more natural for me to be feminine than act masculine. As far as thinking and real desires go I've always thought "woman". Its just the way it is and it feels great not to fight it anymore. As far as societies go I'd still want to be a woman. I never felt "right" as a man and now I really cant stand playing one anymore. Heck this society frowns on "men who want to be women" as weak or mental, etc. What a joke! :laugh:
1) What do you define a woman as, like what does that mean to you to be a woman?
It's not a set definable thing. I can express being a woman in an infinite amount of ways. But as for how it feels and what it means, it's an intangible feeling of satiated comfort. When my gender presentation was a boy, even though i was presenting as a boy, i knew that the presentation didn't match what I felt inside. I was constrained in the expression of my identity. It's not so much that I'm a girl. So much as i'm me. Whatever this ball of shocks and jolts that makes up my identity is--it is a girl. The clothes, the hair, the hormones--that's all cosmetic expression of who I am on the inside. Transitioning implies a movement between two points, but I'm not moving. I am revealing.
2) If you have an idealized version of a woman what does that entail? What is she like? Is it in the essence of being a female? If so, how much of that essence are socially expected roles/traits/appearances (for example there is a really great documentary series called killing us softly about objectification of women in media - you should check it out if your interested in the topic)?
I don't have an idealized version of a woman. I have things I like in some women that I don't like in others. thinks i like in myself. things I don't. But I don't have a version of femalehood that I measure others by.
3) Do you think you'd feel the same way if you were in a different country? American society has very different gender expectations of females from other countries, villages, tribes, etc...so the definition changes. I guess what I'm trying to ask is how much of what your going through do you relate to nature-that is the biological makeup of sex and nurture- the socially acceptable traits/behaviors/attitudes of a woman that you are consciously planning on adopting in your transition? Both are heavily debated when it comes to gender as to what is more influential but not one is considered to be the only factor.
I think so. Because again, my conception of what is female isn't tied to cultural signposts at it's most intrinsic level. if i were in a diffrent culture and the fashion was diffrent, teh role of women was diffrent--all of that--I'd just being doing that. Those elements are my gender expression--not my gender itself. If my gender was tied to my gender expression in such a concrete way, then i would always be wearing the same skirt. But I change my fashion with the seasons, with what's in, with what's out. So if I lived in another culture, I would do diffrent things, look completely diffrent, probably act entirely diffrent, but I would still be a woman.
I could be disguised as a bearded construction worker with huge muscles, and very masculine expressions--and I'd still be a woman. If that makes sense.
Yes, everything you said makes a lot of sense. I certainly don't have any plans anytime soon to being anything else then who I am. Took to long getting here, and I love here, because it's me. I can wear a dress, a skirt, trousers, or a farmers coveralls, a truck drivers drabs, a fireman's uniform, or drive a truck in my bikini if I want but it's still me inside all of them. ;D
Cindy
Thanks for everyone answering these questions. I really loved reading these answers.
I felt the same for a lot of them, and it's nice to know that others feel the same way.
Thank you!
Well they are thought provoking questions, especially on how do you define a woman in this day and age. I still say, draw a line around yourself and just be the woman you see in your minds-eye to the best you can be. A persona that reflects your inner personality whom you have known to be female for as long as memory goes back to.
Cindy
1) I have no particularly thought-provoking answer to this. I have met very few people in the world that I can get along with on a regular basis, but the one person I've always admired is a woman -- my sister. And she has a lot of masculine traits that I do not have (she's aggressive, inspired, sportsy, outspoken -- all traits we don't share). But I don't define womanhood or femininity around her, either. At the end of the day the only answer to this I can really give is... I don't define a woman as something particularly different from that of a man, although this may have to do with growing up around a lot of strange, vulgar people (who were all strange and vulgar regardless of gender). I'm sure my difference in general from most people I was around was shocking enough, anyhow. What it means to me to be a woman, well... it means I'm defining myself by my own terms, and not by anyone else's. When growing up, everyone else got to determine who and what I was. And I'm an internal person, so I lived with my own thoughts and just went with the flow, it was easier than being who I am, so that's what I did. That's what a lot of children do.
2) I don't have an idealized version of a woman. I sometimes wish I did, but I think in doing so I'd be objectifying myself, which I don't particularly like to do. I've already dealt with some online objectification due to being OUT on several forums I visit, I'm certainly not going to do it to myself. I am who I am and all of my little quirks, whether considered "masculine" or "feminine" by regular folks, are feminine by my own personal definition of femininity. I don't see anything particularly odd or wrong with that, although I'm sure this answer might raise a few eyebrows.
3) Well, no, but it would certainly affect my behavior (reasonably most people should probably say the same thing). If you're living in a 3rd world country where they'd kill you and members of your family for being different or perceived in a light of general "inferiority", what do you do? You suppress these things or find a way to move to a more accepting country. Surely there's brainwashing (religious or not) that happens to TS children in these countries, too, and who knows what kind of long-term effect that would have on anybody. I believe what we go through is entirely nature and not nurture, but surely the method of nurture can determine a lot of the outcomes of our decisions to carry on or not. In countries like you're describing, I firmly believe that this is what happens.
Here goes...
1) What do you define a woman as, like what does that mean to you to be a woman?
More in-touch with feelings and emotions. Caring and nuturing. I guess in the motherhood. Not the ability to have children but rather to mother them.
2) If you have an idealized version of a woman what does that entail? What is she like? Is it in the essence of being a female? If so, how much of that essence are socially expected roles/traits/appearances (for example there is a really great documentary series called killing us softly about objectification of women in media - you should check it out if your interested in the topic)?
The best answer to this part: I know it when I see it, but I keep in mind that outer beauty is no real indicator of inner beauty. As far as social expectations/roles go? The expectations of the fashion world would be deadly to most women. Modern- feminism has opened the doors of so called gender roles...its her decision to walk thru that door or not. The "essence" of feminitity...I have an inner girlie-girl.
3) Do you think you'd feel the same way if you were in a different country? American society has very different gender expectations of females from other countries, villages, tribes, etc...so the definition changes. I guess what I'm trying to ask is how much of what your going through do you relate to nature-that is the biological makeup of sex and nurture- the socially acceptable traits/behaviors/attitudes of a woman that you are consciously planning on adopting in your transition? Both are heavily debated when it comes to gender as to what is more influential but not one is considered to be the only factor.
All peoples have the right to freedom, the pursuit of their dreams and the obligation to answer for their own transgressions.
Societies that deny women equal rights and equality before the law are in violation of the Western Worlds, God-given, concept of the Social Contract.
Take care...Michelle.
I just don't buy into the stereotype that a woman is all dresses and hair and makeup and showing all these emotions. Women can be the exact opposite of that and be just as much a woman as someone who is the essence of that.
For some reason I think a lot of "trans" (those not born the way they feel they should have been) people tend to glorify their desired gender in very stereotypical ways.
(I'm not arguing per se, just throwing a couple of points into the debate :) )
QuoteI just don't buy into the stereotype that a woman is all dresses and hair and makeup and showing all these emotions. Women can be the exact opposite of that and be just as much a woman as someone who is the essence of that.
Hmmmm..... you may well be right, but how far can a female go along that road before she starts to become a caricature man? We are all familiar with the stereotype tweedy dyke who in effect IS a man but has a vagina.
QuoteFor some reason I think a lot of "trans" (those not born the way they feel they should have been) people tend to glorify their desired gender in very stereotypical ways.
I agree that is often the case but isn't that the same in any field? Golfers aspire to be Tiger Woods, they don't idolize some semi competent part-timer who knocks in the occasional birdie.
Women have been wearing make-up ever since stone-age maidens started daubing their faces with mud and berry-juice.
If two women of equal raw beauty walk into a room and one is in jeans, flats and no make-up and the other is well made up in a plunge-neck evening gown, heels and a little tasteful bling, have you any doubt which would be getting all the attention?
Yes, to be a woman one needs little more than a vagina, but surely to be feminine takes something else?
- I know several extremely feminine pre-ops and a several very un-feminine genetic women.
The real debate is "What constitutes femininity?"
I have maybe a different take on this...
I don't really believe in a 'female essence' or 'essence of a woman' which I have despite my anatomy or something like that. For me it's more like this:
The way I want my body to look is considered feminine by society
The way I want to dress is considered feminine by society
The way I want to socialize with other people is considered feminine by society
The way I want to be sexual with other people is considered feminine by society
etc.
So for me it's not so much about being a woman trapped in a man's body and how do I fix that, but rather about, how do I be best true to myself despite what society thinks about it.
Quote from: Steffi on April 02, 2009, 08:56:03 PM
If two women of equal raw beauty walk into a room and one is in jeans, flats and no make-up and the other is well made up in a plunge-neck evening gown, heels and a little tasteful bling, have you any doubt which would be getting all the attention?
Depends on a persons tastes I guess.
As for the tweedy dike being essentially a man... I bet they would beg to differ. Why don't you ask one. Good luck as they are not known for taking that sorta thing well. Hope you can walk away from that one.
I just wonder why so many trans women put such an emphasis on clothing and makeup......I mean, I put on makeup if I'm going out, and get dressed up in nice jeans and a nice blouse, but never if I'm just running to the grocery store or down the street. Some won't leave their house without getting all dressed to the nines.
As I did in my previous life I wore men's slacks, dress shirt and sports coat and oxford shoes. I never liked genes and sweat shirts and flannel shirts, "yuck" If I wore such clothes it was for working with a shovel digging ditches, painting a barn of working out in the yard, hate dirt!
Nothing had changed much in my formal wear except that I wear women's slacks and different tops of varying styles and colors, I love colors. It is nice to have the privilege to wear a dress or or a skirt, for a change and other women's apparel that is so much more comfortable during the warm weather. Nothing much has changes except the variety and colors.
I wear what suits my mood. I wear my hair the way it suits my mood. I feel I have more pride in myself and I feel more independent and self confident then I ever have before. I knew how to dress and I new how to present before I even came out.
Cindy
Quote from: Vesper on April 02, 2009, 09:49:46 PM
The way I want my body to look is considered feminine by society
The way I want to dress is considered feminine by society
The way I want to socialize with other people is considered feminine by society
The way I want to be sexual with other people is considered feminine by society
etc.
So for me it's not so much about being a woman trapped in a man's body and how do I fix that, but rather about, how do I be best true to myself despite what society thinks about it.
+1
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on April 02, 2009, 03:40:53 AM
1) What do you define a woman as, like what does that mean to you to be a woman?
It's not a set definable thing. I can express being a woman in an infinite amount of ways. But as for how it feels and what it means, it's an intangible feeling of satiated comfort. When my gender presentation was a boy, even though i was presenting as a boy, i knew that the presentation didn't match what I felt inside. I was constrained in the expression of my identity. It's not so much that I'm a girl. So much as i'm me. Whatever this ball of shocks and jolts that makes up my identity is--it is a girl. The clothes, the hair, the hormones--that's all cosmetic expression of who I am on the inside. Transitioning implies a movement between two points, but I'm not moving. I am revealing.
2) If you have an idealized version of a woman what does that entail? What is she like? Is it in the essence of being a female? If so, how much of that essence are socially expected roles/traits/appearances (for example there is a really great documentary series called killing us softly about objectification of women in media - you should check it out if your interested in the topic)?
I don't have an idealized version of a woman. I have things I like in some women that I don't like in others. thinks i like in myself. things I don't. But I don't have a version of femalehood that I measure others by.
3) Do you think you'd feel the same way if you were in a different country? American society has very different gender expectations of females from other countries, villages, tribes, etc...so the definition changes. I guess what I'm trying to ask is how much of what your going through do you relate to nature-that is the biological makeup of sex and nurture- the socially acceptable traits/behaviors/attitudes of a woman that you are consciously planning on adopting in your transition? Both are heavily debated when it comes to gender as to what is more influential but not one is considered to be the only factor.
I think so. Because again, my conception of what is female isn't tied to cultural signposts at it's most intrinsic level. if i were in a diffrent culture and the fashion was diffrent, teh role of women was diffrent--all of that--I'd just being doing that. Those elements are my gender expression--not my gender itself. If my gender was tied to my gender expression in such a concrete way, then i would always be wearing the same skirt. But I change my fashion with the seasons, with what's in, with what's out. So if I lived in another culture, I would do diffrent things, look completely diffrent, probably act entirely diffrent, but I would still be a woman.
I could be disguised as a bearded construction worker with huge muscles, and very masculine expressions--and I'd still be a woman. If that makes sense.
Excellent post Sarah, fully agree. :)
For me It's more just being me and not trying to fit the square peg into a round hole. I had the hardest time shaking hands before. I really had to work at shaking hands as a guy. about 1/2 the time it was opps girl handshake. Gee Don't need to worry about that one anymore. So to me it's just far more of just letting me be me. As my former partner told me once to be female just be myself for that was how I appeared when I was relaxed.
I think over half the battle of appearing female is just appearing and behaving female or as myself which is the same thing. I guess for me it was more like stop acting guyish and just be me.
So I'm no longer trying to be something I'm not and that makes life just so much easier. Of course going to the salon (yeah tomorrow!!) getting the nails don't and a 1000 other things are just icing on the cake.
Not sure I'm answering the question, but it's how it seems to me. It was more not so much learning traits of a woman, but too stop pretending to be guy. Mind you it takes a little time to unlearn habbits, but once the inner girl pops out watch out.
Beni
"Bingo!" That's it exactly, the traits, or instincts, are already there just need to let them surface over all the guy stuff we were conditioned to think and be. Having had 11 kids in my care through the year I didn't have to learn how to nurture...
"Hee, hee." I never liked the hand shakes either felt to impersonal.
It was such a wonderful experience to be able to hug both other women and men, a sincere hug showing emotion.
Cindy
What I never realized was that I never knew what it was like to be a male. (I am "M2F" btw.) I thought I would mention that because it seems like everyone posts replies to everything around here. Anyway.. Like I said, I never really knew what it was like to be male, I thought I did but I didn't. My experience of "male" was what I thought being male was and most early transitioners make the same mistake (based on my own experience actually) and think to themselves that they know exactly what it is like to be a woman, because they have come to the conclusion that they have always been one, albeit one "trapped in a male body (or whatever)."
Really most of us tend to be pretty clueless. I think most women who transition will never really learn what it is like to be a woman because they won't ever allow themselves to have female gendered experiences. Instead they will tell friends, coworkers, lovers (etc.) that they are transsexual and they will have an experience based upon what they represent themselves as.. based on what they introduce themselves as but because they have come to believe that they have always been "female".. they will tend to assume that they are having the experience of being female.
I know I fooled myself into believing that I was experiencing life as a female.
But life kicked me in the ass and showed me how delusional I was. I started having a female life by accident. It caused me to begin to believe in myself as a woman without the transsexual baggage. It wasn't because I was special, I was just lucky I guess or it was a fate thing. I am as clueless as a person can be, I just stumbled into a female life by accident and luck and I decided I needed more of it because it was the only life worth having (for me). It changed me, it changed my perception of life and the world.
Being a woman is pure freedom (to me). Pure liberty and the price of that freedom is constant vigilance.
I like your comments Julie and they have a certain resonance with me.
I spent a lot of my early life wondering why I didn't fit, why everything was so hard, and to avoid being labelled 'gay' or 'odd' meant watching everything I said, everything I did and the way I did it. Life was like trying to figure out a new game without ever having seen the rules.
Through my teens, I wondered what the hell I was. I didn't fit with the boys and I was excluded from many of the girl things. I wasn't sure what I was but I was certain what I wasn't. In the times I was able to live en femme, everything seemed to fit much better, life was easier, so I thought maybe being a girl was where I needed to be.
At 'transition'/SRS at age 24, I didn't consider myself trans anything - just a naive young woman out to learn about herself and her place in the world - all of which came remarkably easily. Some years later I looked back and realized that I was, indeed, a girl. The understanding came from the way I interact with the world and the way the world interacted with me - all easy and natural, without having to think about every action, every phrase, just being me. (I don't think anyone can really understand what being a woman means until you have lived it for a number of years and found comfort in it.)
Over the following 35 years of 'just being me' I came to understand that being a woman isn't about things (clothing, makeup, mannerisms) - it is a state of being - just BEING without doubts, questions, or second thoughts. Being a woman is about the dynamics of day to day living, living as yourself and knowing who you are.
JMHO
I have always resisted the idea of being a woman trapped in a man's body. I have a man's body, but I don't think I am a woman. I always thought I was something else - neither and both - but that I would be happier as a woman. When I was little, I wanted to be a girl so I could relate to others as a girl. When I was a little older, I dressed in girls' clothes because I didn't feel I fit the role my body forced me into. But I never thought I was a girl.
I am still very early in the transition, and I have no idea how far I will be able to go, but I have already found the clothes are less important to me than they were. If I can be me - whatever that is - I will be happy (I think). I hope to be able to present mostly as a woman, because I think women have more latitude in their expression in this society. I also hope to be able to be as much of a woman as I can be, with women friends who relate to me as a woman. (I am very lucky in that I already have one friend like that and two more who are trying to teach me how to do it.) I have no idea if I will ever get to the point where most people treat me as a woman. Sure, I'd like to be able to still wear a skirt sometimes, but it is finding that place on the gender spectrum (or in the gender universe) where I am finally comfortable that is important to me.
That's the road I'm trying to take. If it turns out I need to change physically and legally to a woman, then so be it. If I can finally find where I fit without the surgery and legal redefinition, I'll be fine with that. Or so I think now. It is just nice to have the freedom to finally try to find where I fit.
- Kate
I have a theory about gender which I'll try and explain.. just maybe it might not be liked, but oh well;..
I think gender identity only develops throughout life experiences, since gender roles only pertains to social behavior. I think if the human race wasn't so easily influenced, there'd be just as many boys that would want to play with 'girly' stuff as girls. I think humanity's influencability also explains how society could have come to develop gender roles as they are now. The fact that women become pregnant easily develops to establish a setting of the men having to take care of providing food and shelter because of women's temporal incapacitation by pregnancy. Since the man develops the expertise to provide through this, it is the most simplest outcome that he continues, and because of this the woman stays with the child. Just that is enough to develop a good part of the societal roles. Not only that, but simple things like the woman noticing her body become something that looks beautiful when growing up, as well as other small things, is enough to influence certain aspects of the societal role's becoming. Think about it, if you have something beautiful to work with, you're more inclined to work with it, and other aspects apply in different cases with different people.
I think in today's modern society, gender roles aren't just not needed, but they're also outdated. Every human, be it male or female, has its own personality, its own desires, and I feel everyone should be allowed to act anyway they desire as long as it doesn't harm others.
I think that throughout the influence of seeing the gender roles enacted, whether it's just seeing your mother put on make up, or your brothers play with army men, it triggers a response in your mind according to your personality and desires, and subconsciously associates your mental representation to those roles you see enacted... and this mental process deepens itself as you live more and become even more influenced by the societal doings, and deepens your mental representation into those roles as well as deeper attachment to that representation, as we become more in tune with our desires. For typical people, the mental representation will change as they change, but for other people, like tg, their personality and desires, if strong enough, will make it so their mental representation develops on its own, especially if the body seems to be developing contrary to it.
So as you develop, and your body seperates itself more and more from your mental representation, until the contradiction is just too great, and a great sense of division and contradiction manifests due to this. The person's attachment to their ideal may or may not be very great depending on the mental developments that person goes through, and if it's very great, that person may conclude that their body is wrong, and may or may not suffer greatly from this, depending on how much importance is intergrated/perceived in the body and mind synchronicity. Sometimes it's so great that it's virutally un-changeable, and the person needs to change their body in order to feel like they do have that synchronicity.
.. so..yeah, the theory is that basically there's no such thing as gender beyond gender roles(which are now obsolete) and the mental representation developed by one's mind through experiencing life and its influences, when experienced in contrast to one's personality and desires.
.. :o
Sorta in reply to Saraloop and sorta something I just felt like typing into a box..
I think "gender" is bunk. My understanding of gender is that it is something that is part of being either male or female but somehow "trans" people (for lack of a better word), tend to view it as separate, as constructed as pick-apart-able. Because, I guess many "trans" people have the experience that their gender is at odds with their birth sex.. so apparently many "trans" people begin to see gender as separate from sex and they begin to attribute aspects to it that are socially based or culturally based such as "gender roles" and clothing, makeup or not, long hair or not, types of toys played with as children, types of movies to watch or not, types of video games to play or not.
I didn't transition because my gender was at odds with my birth sex. I transitioned because my brain sex was at odds with my genital sex. I suppose some would question me and ask me how could I possibly know that my birth sex was at odds with my brain sex? Well.. It is quite the conundrum and it took me years to sort it all out but essentially the cure (transition) was what helped me to realize that my brain sex was absolutely at odds with my genital sex. Life was completely wrong for me before transition. I felt like a nothing, like a no one. I felt absolutely invalid and I had no life. After transitioning and going full-time one of my first realizations what that I finally had something worth dying for. I finally had an actual life and everything was right. Before transition no matter where I was and no matter what I was doing.. I didn't belong and I felt out of place but after transition it was like reality became my home and I no longer felt any need to try to distract myself or to live in my own little world. Suddenly life was welcoming me with open arms and the world expanded and became larger. I felt like a human being, like I mattered, like I was worthy, like I had value. It was a night and day experience and how do you just explain how suddenly everything that was wrong and could never be fixed was suddenly so right. I guess you have to experience it for yourself.
I agree, to a certain extent, with both Saraloop and Julie. I think gender is based on the social structures that grew out of physical differences (women give birth, men don't). Many of those gender differences have less meaning now than they did. I grew up in a time when gender differences were rigidly enforced. Things are much more fluid now. I think we are working in the right direction but aren't there yet. Gender still has meaning in this society.
I also believe that male (testosterone-based) sexuality is very different from female (estrogen-based) sexuality and that those differences are not just societal but have helped form the societal concept of gender. I always found my male sexuality to be like the Invasion of the Bodysnatchers or something - an alien intelligence was controlling my body. Now, with androgyn-blockers and estrogen, I finally feel "right".
I never felt I was a woman in a man's body. Since the age of 4 or 5, I felt I would be happier and fit better as a woman. If society is free enough to accept me as a human with womanly characteristics but in some ways appearing male, then I don't have to change my body that much. But if society insists I choose one or the other, then I choose woman and will change my body to fit.
Life is a journey of discovery.
- Kate
Semantics. Words are words. Gender, Sex, brain sex, genital sex. Same things.
Saraloop and Julies W., your theories are saying the same things as what has been said. The words have just be in changed.
Gender = Brain Sex. Sex = Genital Sex. And my favorite.... Blending = Passing.
You say toe*may*toe, I say toe*ma*toe. It is still a vine ripen fruit.
I am not saying you wrong, just that you have changed the names to protect the innocent. ;D
It comes down to something is wrong. And we do what we must to fix the error. And we say what we have come to understand, to explain it. I don't think anyone is wrong in their theory.
Janet
Well actually Julie is contradicting me in a way. For me, Brain sex is the same thing as Gender, it's just a created mental representation, whether subconscious or not.
I don't think transition made everything right, I think it just allowed you to open up because you felt more comfortable in your skin.
And I agree with what K8 said.
But it's not just a change of word. I'd like people to realize that gender is meaningless apart from it being still affecting society. That we don't need to look like anything, that we can be and act anyway we want, and that the only thing stopping us is our own selves.. our fears of being rejected has mutated and constrained us. Don't get me wrong though, just because you don't need it, doesnt mean you can't desire it, and go through with it.
well, from a biological view, sex is nothing more than a genotype. XX for female and XY for male. There are, of course, many many variations of those. Gender is, however, nothing more than a social construct. There are some biological factors that make females (generally) favor a behavior more than a male would and vise versa.
The real question is, what is it about the opposite gender role that appeals to us so much? What makes us so unhappy with the way we were born? I know the theories about our brains and all, but that is still only a piece of the puzzle. I've asked the question before. What if gender roles as we know them were completely reversed, yet we were born the exact same way. Would we still not be happy in the gender role we were born or would we still want to mimic the behavior of the opposite gender?
Quote from: Ashley315 on April 11, 2009, 12:10:12 PM
well, from a biological view, sex is nothing more than a genotype. XX for female and XY for male. There are, of course, many many variations of those. Gender is, however, nothing more than a social construct. There are some biological factors that make females (generally) favor a behavior more than a male would and vise versa.
The real question is, what is it about the opposite gender role that appeals to us so much? What makes us so unhappy with the way we were born? I know the theories about our brains and all, but that is still only a piece of the puzzle. I've asked the question before. What if gender roles as we know them were completely reversed, yet we were born the exact same way. Would we still not be happy in the gender role we were born or would we still want to mimic the behavior of the opposite gender?
I think the only reason your mind messed up in the background is because of your true desires, so I don't think we'd try to mimic the opposite gender, I think we'd associate with whomever fits with those desires, and if as influencable as we were throughout our childhood, then we could again develop a weird bond with that gender and could potentially feel a need to match our body with whatever image we developed.
As I have expressed my feelings and thoughts on this before on another thread, holds just as much on this thread as it did on the other thread.
I accept myself as a woman and I define myself as a woman but I am as unique and different to any other woman as each of them are as different and unique unto them selves in comparison to other women or men as far as that goes.
But then after having lived as a woman for nine years i could say that to my own observations how men think and feel is astronomically difference in comparison, "biff bam Chicago" "slam bam." And the hell with the stereotype crap. I draw a line around my own definition of how I feel as a woman.
I believe I posted this elsewhere either in these forums or another group.
Anyway, My partner and I went for a little drive out in the country yesterday. My side of our Dodge Nitro is all decked out girly like, including a Tinkerbell seat cover. It felt so comfortable sitting there listening the the soft hum of the tires and feeling the beautiful warm sunlight on my face and inhaling the fresh spring air coming through the sun roof.
I felt so right with the world around me, like this was the way it all should have been all my life. I leaned over and put my head on my partners shoulder and let the air blow in my hair and just closed my eyes and enjoyed the ecstasy of the moment. I felt like a little girl just enjoying a ride with a loving parent. Then I thought to myself, I love being Paula's the little house mouse. I believe one becomes more comfortable and at peace as time passes by, you are just being you.
Cindy
exactly my point. I feel "right" in embracing the gender role of today's woman. But if those gender roles were reversed would I then feel right in embracing what we think of in our society as being male gender roles? I guess it's the age old question of, is it the behavior that we feel we belong in or is it something deeper? I don't wish to act in a stereotypically male way, but what if that was how most women acted? Would I want to act that way then because I think of myself as a woman? I really don't have an answer for that and truthfully I don't think it can be answered. Yes, it looks as though the brain of a transsexual is, in some ways, more closely related to that persons desired sex. But how much does that affect our personalities and our roles in life?
This is just something I wonder about from time to time. Not that any of it changes anything. Life is what it is and in the end, you gotta do what makes you happy.
Quote from: Ashley315 on April 11, 2009, 12:10:12 PMI've asked the question before. What if gender roles as we know them were completely reversed, yet we were born the exact same way. Would we still not be happy in the gender role we were born or would we still want to mimic the behavior of the opposite gender?
Even if the gender roles were reversed, I would still do what I am doing. And that is being the woman I should have been and am now. For me it isn't about the roles so much as what I see in the mirror. I can still be a truck driver, auto mechanic, computer programmer, high steel welder or whatever, but I am still a woman.
Quote from: Ashley315 on April 11, 2009, 06:49:50 PM
I feel "right" in embracing the gender role of today's woman. .....I don't wish to act in a stereotypically male way, but what if that was how most women acted? Would I want to act that way then because I think of myself as a woman? I really don't have an answer for that and truthfully I don't think it can be answered. Yes, it looks as though the brain of a transsexual is, in some ways, more closely related to that persons desired sex. But how much does that affect our personalities and our roles in life?
What more can one say? I agree 100%, Ashley. I want nothing to do with the biological gender I was born into. No one asked me if I want to be male or female. But I am taking posession of being a woman now. And even if there was no SOC or HRT or SRS, I would not wish to be in a body I detest. Gender is between the ears, and not the legs. Nor is in the DNA. Gender is between the ears, and my is Female.
This thing call GID isn't about roles, it is about how one views that image in the mirror. We don't play roles, we live life. And in order to enjoy that life, one must live it as they see fit.
As the Wiccans say "And it harm none, Do what thy will".
Janet
You don't need to look like you feel. It just helps to fit in.
.. but I guess to some it doesn't appear that way
sometimes not fitting in is fun however.
Quote from: Saraloop on April 11, 2009, 07:19:43 PM
You don't need to look like you feel. It just helps to fit in.
.. but I guess to some it doesn't appear that way
Speaking for myself only I Know my outward appearence dosent match my true self. That self is unfortunately for me extremely feminine by any standard.The more feminine I look the better I feel its simple as that with me. I also dont believe gender exists because of society. Our brains are structured differently than a mans. Similar but different men and women are "programed" to be the gender they're physically born with 99% of the time. My true self looks, acts, and feels stereotypically feminine. I know that being yourself is a truely liberating and wonderful experiance-alot easier than being someone your not. I've lived my whole life that way and its just not cool. And deep down we all know who and what we truelly are- not just what society or words or conditions say but what deep down we internally know to be true. And just like any other birth defect there is medical treatment for this condition, unfortunatly its not covered by insurance. :'(
Quote from: coolJ on April 11, 2009, 10:58:57 PM
Speaking for myself only I Know my outward appearence dosent match my true self. That self is unfortunately for me extremely feminine by any standard.The more feminine I look the better I feel its simple as that with me. I also dont believe gender exists because of society. Our brains are structured differently than a mans. Similar but different men and women are "programed" to be the gender they're physically born with 99% of the time. My true self looks, acts, and feels stereotypically feminine. I know that being yourself is a truely liberating and wonderful experiance-alot easier than being someone your not. I've lived my whole life that way and its just not cool. And deep down we all know who and what we truelly are- not just what society or words or conditions say but what deep down we internally know to be true. And just like any other birth defect there is medical treatment for this condition, unfortunatly its not covered by insurance. :'(
Gender is nothing more than a social construct and is ever evolving and changing. Like I said, there are some behaviors that woman and men are biologically more prone to, but gender roles isn't really one of them.
Like I have said, I draw a circle around myself and what ever is inside that circle is how I define myself as a woman. We all do, both men and cisgender women will have their own personal understanding and definition as to how they see themselves as a man or woman.
The thing is how I perceive myself to be, not judging myself as to how the women next to me presents herself, but how I present myself can be as personalised as my finger prints. Although I may envy what the woman next to me is wearing and how she looks in it I may wonder what I would look like in the same outfit.
Or we could secretly envy someone because of how they look and comport themselves and wish we could be like that, but at the end of the day we go home as who we are, our own personification of what we wish people around us to see and perceive us as. Such is the nature of the female.
Once at home you may want to take a warm bath to relax, then sit in a comfortable chair in your nightie with a good book
You are just you, relaxing after a long day at work, just reading what ever tickles your fancy. Whether that be a Zane Grey novel, a Harlequins Romance novel, the gossip sheet, The National Enquirer, or The Wall Street Journal. Whatever it is you enjoy to read, you are just being you, a woman enjoying a good read.
Just use your own inner intuition and do what it tells you.
Cindy
Quote from: Ashley315 on April 12, 2009, 12:44:53 AM
Gender is nothing more than a social construct and is ever evolving and changing. Like I said, there are some behaviors that woman and men are biologically more prone to, but gender roles isn't really one of them.
Hmm, I was born physically a male but my earliest memories are of thinking I was female and really wanting to be female after I was told I was a boy. So how being born male am I biologically prone to be female. Just a little background on me is that my whole life to cope with this out of fear,love, protection, yada, yada I've had to work at being more masculine. Since my acceptance I dont try to be manly anymore and its very natural for me to act feminine. I do think society has some influence but I think 1000 years from now gender will still be unchanged with us. 8)
Quote from: coolJ on April 12, 2009, 06:26:16 AM
Hmm, I was born physically a male but my earliest memories are of thinking I was female and really wanting to be female after I was told I was a boy. So how being born male am I biologically prone to be female. Just a little background on me is that my whole life to cope with this out of fear,love, protection, yada, yada I've had to work at being more masculine. Since my acceptance I dont try to be manly anymore and its very natural for me to act feminine. I do think society has some influence but I think 1000 years from now gender will still be unchanged with us. 8)
Me too. :)
I really don't know what gender I am anymore. I'm not sure it really matters. What I do know is that because of my physical body, someone marked my sex as male on a birth certificate. I also know that I am not male. Plain and simple. That doesn't mean that I'm female though.
What most people consider gendered traits I see as human traits, irregardless of gender. Our society attaches assumptions and expectations to these traits.
I don't like being automatically gendered by people.
Z
Actually with the current way things are going, it is highly likely that one day we will evolve to a point where you cannot tell the sexes apart. Gender roles are changing and have changed drastically from 60 years ago. Back then, it was not appropriate for women to smoke, or wear pants, nor was it appropriate for men to have ear piercings. These were all commonly thought of as being traits of the opposite gender. One of the biggest changes in societal gender roles is probably the fact that male nurses are common place in today's society. Sixty years ago, this was not the case.
Like I said, there are some behaviors that the sexes are biologically prone to do, but most are learned behaviors and choices made based on how we want the world to view us. I can guarantee you that women don't wear makeup and dresses because their brain tells them to.
Hi Ashly hun, no offence but why would someone want to transition if the only differences are the ones you have mentioned in your post?
Whether our traits as women were once imposed upon us as learned behaviour by society, I don't remember my mom or my grandmother complaining about their roles in society, except for occasionally saying, "MEN!!!!" They will never understand..
I believe I learned much of my behaviours and characteristics from my mom, we were close and I loved her much, what better role could I follow.
Cindy
it was only an example of common female/male behavior.
You basically proved my point by saying a lot of your behavior you learned from your mother. We learn these things from seeing how others act. If your mother had been had many behaviors that were commonly considered "male", then you would most likely have picked those up as well, or found someone else to pick up behaviors from.
I find this very interesting, its a good point to bring up :3
Other than following a trend, trying to be the other crowd, blending in or just trying to be what you are not (mentally to follow someone else' path) seems like you had no intention of being the girl / woman you really see yourself being.
I grew up being myself and looking at the world in a different way than most people I met or knew and I had no female hero's at the time and looked at the world in a new way than I saw most seeing it.
Consider the fact celebrity's never existed, its like you have no figure or hero to look up to and explore your own inner-self and reflect upon what is more valuable.
This world has so many stereotypes and gender-based roles from way back in the 60's and some people still cling to those beliefs.
In my honest opinion, people try to mimic or imitate others to ride the same car everyone else has to get either attention or to make them become something they do not understand.
When it comes to transgenders the roles are reversed and we just seem to want to live in the life of a female... but not all of us want to follow having a girlfriend / boyfriend because society depicts that all around us... many of us have different ideals and beliefs which is why when we try to pit it all together into one box, they scramble around because they have no place to wander to.
I think a lot of us still have a LONG way to go before we truly understand ourselves and OTHERS just as well, we may think we can dress better than someone or do something twice as fast or anything else... it all just comes down to being YOU.
In my mind I do not see my personality changing other than some traits I highly dislike (masculine ones) and physical / mental traits I also want to change around.
On the other hand, it seems most transgenders try to imitate others (not that its a bad thing) but seem to be who they are not when instead we or they could try changing their image to be individually different in that same sense of imitation (like copying a celebrity or fashion / trend)
It all just comes down to personal flavor really :3
Ok putting it the way you all are perceiving gender rolls I must agree you are correct. But speaking for myself I must say that as far as gender rolls I must admit that for the most part they are learned behaviour. I have often mentioned on this board on different occasions about being encouraged or conditioned and even forced as we grow up to behave as the gender that our physical bodies present.
But why does this go against our grain from the very beginning? Even before I could differentiate between the sex. For example my true desire was to be with and do things with my sister and my mom more then going out to do boy stuff.
I would call this instinctive.
I was never a guy, I was only playing the roll in order to fit in where I didn't belong to begin with.
Since I feel I am a woman and living as a woman, I certainly wouldn't "dread" want to go around behaving like a guy, "yucka mucka!"
I have always had many of the traits of my mom and have adapted those traits to my own personality as to who I present as today. But then my idea of being a woman may be a we bit old fashioned because I was raised with much diferent values and ideas in the 50's and 60's about being a woman then most do today.
Cindy
I found Ashley's comment about Fem guys had very high testosterone levels very enlightening as I have had T levels 2 1/2 to 3 X's the norm. My Hypothesis was that I had to produce more T to offset the Estrogen in my body. After researching the subject more I found that we all start out in vitro as female and depending on the timing of either a testosterone or estrogen wash during In vitro set the stage for physical development M or F. As with all things there are varying degrees in the terms of how we respond to our views of the world and how we respond. Also there are varying degrees to the way we perceive our responses to stimuli. Some of us have different levels of E, T, or Progestrone and with some there are receptors in the brain that respond more to one or the other. For instance a macho male has receptors that respond to T and disregard E and with others the receptors recognize E and disregard T and all to varying degrees. Mentioned earlier was feelings way before we had sexual understanding and relating to female better than male responses.
There is a Family group or tribe in Puerto Rico that has a very high incident of hermaphrodite's and they just leave well enough alone and let the children choose as as they age. A friend of mine from PR was surprised when I told him that but it answered some questions he had after returning to PR and seeing what he perceived as Gay behavior in a very religious country and this made what he was seeing more understandable for him.
For me it was/is all about what I feel most comfortable with. At a very young age I realized that to achieve in life it would be easier as a male especially in the old days, 50's and early 60's, but NEEDED to have my Fem time to relax and feel complete. As far as looking at GG's I use the the facial features that fit my face shape to choose styles and hair color and styles that are complimentary for me. I also agree that we are moving to a more androginus society and and I applaud that. It always intrigued me that GG's could be tomboys without recrimination a good thing. As I've said many times I want it all. Hugs. DG
Exactly why I said there are some behaviors that men and women seem to be biologically prone to. It isn't always they case, but it is often the case.
Quote from: Janet Lynn on April 11, 2009, 09:27:36 AM
Semantics. Words are words. Gender, Sex, brain sex, genital sex. Same things.
Saraloop and Julies W., your theories are saying the same things as what has been said. The words have just be in changed.
Gender = Brain Sex. Sex = Genital Sex. And my favorite.... Blending = Passing.
You say toe*may*toe, I say toe*ma*toe. It is still a vine ripen fruit.
I am not saying you wrong, just that you have changed the names to protect the innocent. ;D
It comes down to something is wrong. And we do what we must to fix the error. And we say what we have come to understand, to explain it. I don't think anyone is wrong in their theory.
Janet
I agree... because I feel like I can relate to you.
But there are others who have different concepts related to the words. Since this is the Transsexual section, perhaps more people would tend to be able to relate. Here is where I am coming from with this though.. As human beings.. when we are trying to understand other people.. we tend to fill in all the blanks (or missing information) with information we have gathered from our own experiences. There is an actual name for this process but I don't remember what it is. But we try to understand others based on information gained from our own experiences rather than gathering information from the individuals we are trying to know better.
For some people though.. gender is nothing more than social constructs. And some people actually believe that men and women are more alike than they are different. And go figure.. it tends to be "trans" people who are making these bold statements. Trans people who are trying to understand other people by filling in the blanks (or lack of information) with information they have gained from their own experiences.. their own lives.
It takes a special person to realize that we are not all the same. These people who are able to grasp that we are not all the same, these people who don't resort to filling in the blanks with themselves and who instead are able to learn about other people by asking questions.. by actually getting to know the other person.. they tend to occupy positions of power, management positions, positions as therapists and social workers and clergy. Most of us will never realize that other people are different. We observe others and we decide what they are feeling based upon our own experiences instead of inquiring, instead of getting to know others. It is why so many of us feel so alone so much of the time. No one is getting to know us, everyone assumes, no one is willing to reach out or listen or ask questions.
of course people are all unique.. I don't think anyone is arguing that fact. It's the ideas that some people have about gender behaviors that is in question. Gender behaviors is a social construct.. you can not deny that fact. It is actually nothing more than a mass stereotyping of people really. It is labeling behaviors and expectation on people that they do not always live up to.
At the core of all humans, however, we are the same. We are nothing more than a slightly higher evolved animal. We have the same basic animalistic needs as all other species on earth. Take away civilization and see how humanity reacts.