Quotein pink and blue. you do NOT know what gender that child is, and you will not know until they tell you. it makes me sick, makes me cringe when I see children dressed in gender specific clothes. these stereotypes, this forced gender binary, needs to die.
seriously. it's not as simple as box "M" and box "F".
I posted this in another forum (I was particularly frustrated that day) in reference to transsexuals. here's the link to the thread there: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?p=1075798#post1075798 (http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?p=1075798#post1075798)
the replies are pretty harsh...but I wanted to know what YOU guys think. do you agree or disagree?
I respectfully disagree. my mom dressed me in girl clothes when I was really young, what else would she do? she didn't know I was trans. I don't remember it, it didn't harm me, and I don't feel hurt by it. by the time I was about 4 or 5 I started rejecting these clothes though, and she was cool with that and let me wear what I want. I do think that's necessary, once a child has rejected the clothes you give them then yeah stop dressing them like that. but when they're really young, I don't think it matters much
maybe I just haven't explained well enough. let me try again.
I'll put it this way...
if people dropped the pink and blue, dresses and "boy clothes" (with all kinds of sports motifs etc), and dressed all of their children neutral, it would have to mean that they have all learned/accepted that things (gender, at least) aren't always what they appear. it would mean that people (in cultures where it is an issue) have accepted transsexuality as a part of reality. you don't think that would be a good thing?
another thing is, I'm pre-T. after I fully transition, what if I wanted to show someone pictures of me as a baby/toddler, or someone happens upon them? I'd have to explain, because the person would probably be thinking wtf, why did his mom dress her little boy like a girl? this would not be an issue if we all dressed children in neutral clothing, until they are old enough to decide what gender they are/what they like to wear.
I think it would be nice if I had some pictures of me as a child in which I'm not in stereotypical girl clothes and haircuts. it makes me sad to look at them, that I was assumed to be a girl and raised and dressed as one. it doesn't SEEM to be a big deal, and no, it didn't really hurt me, and it's not that I'm so bothered that I was adorned in pink as a baby. I had no idea. no, it didn't hurt me, it couldn't have, and I can dress as I please now (ironically, I like to crossdress) but this is NOT THE POINT! the thing that bothers me is IGNORANCE and DISREGARD of transsexuality! do you see what I mean now? and do you still disagree?
I see what you're saying, but trans kids are fairly rare; the majority of kids are cis-gendered. I dressed my kids in gender-specific clothing, though my daughter wore a lot of overalls and solid colors, and we didn't break out the sports motif for my son. When they were old enough to voice their opinions, I bought them clothes that they wanted, and that was that.
It would be nice if nobody were born trans, or that those of us who are came with a label slapped on our foreheads to clue in our parents, but that's not to be. There *are* gender differences, which is why we trans-folk have such a hard time being in the wrong body. If the world were truly gender neutral, would that really matter much?
Jay
The moment I found out I was pregnant I made a conscious decision.
I would not tell my family, or anyone, the sex of the child.
I would put forward a rule of "no pink".
And then when my daughter was born, there was a host of greens, browns, purples, reds, deep-warm blues. All kinds of Beautifully coloured clothes, and none of them "girly".
Her toys were rather neutral as well.
As she's grown up I've let her make her own decisions as to colours to wear and such and I've got to say, the girl is a smart dresser with excellent taste.
She's got an interest in cars and buildable things and anything artsy, but there's no doubt in my mind that she's a girl (though should that change.. *shrug* no difference to me).
I have to admit. Seeing the way she is today, with a snazzy taste and a passion for the creative arts, that I would feel absolutely unfair if I were to put her in a pink dress and expect her to be "girly" because she's not that person.
And that leads me to look at the parents that pat their boys on the back and tell them to "be tough" when they trip on the street, or put their girls in pink tutu's and call them "little princess", as if they're somewhat unfair as well, because it seems they've decided that that's who the child is, instead of learning to know them as individual persons separate of what they want in an offspring.
Like the child is a doll to dress up, not a human being.
But that's just me.
On many levels I agree with you... but I think the way you're going about it is just asking for a fight. Anytime you shout at someone, "DO THIS!" there's going to be a bunch of people who shout back "GTFO of my business!"
I agree to a certain extent. I know guys and girls who both wear blue and pink. A colour doesn't necessary mean a gender.
Jay
I see where you're coming from, but I don't know if that in itself is that big of a deal.
Still it reminds me of last night when I was in Target with my parents... I saw a little boy picking a Nintendo DS, and the lady that was helping them out said "You can choose between these colors: Red, Blue, Pink...etc." and then she was like "Well I know you don't want the pink one..."
I really wish the little boy had said "No, that's the one I want!", I would have loved to have seen her reaction. =P
Okay, now, I read some of the responses and I've seen this before:
"Boy=Penis
Girl=Vagina."
It makes me so mad... and it's just really weird how the person's username is "Guitarboy" but their gender says they're female.
My friend lets her son (he's 4) wear whatever he wants to wear. At the moment, he spends most days dressed either as Superman or as Dorothy from The Wizard of Oz. Sometimes he wears trousers, and other times he prefers to wear dresses - because he likes to look pretty. He doesn't seem to have any gender issues, however; he's certain that he's a boy, and is aware that when he's wearing a dress people often assume he's a girl. Sometimes he corrects them and other times he just lets it go, depending on whether he can be bothered or not - and yes, he really is 4!
Personally, I think it's cool that she lets him express himself however he wants through his clothing, and it makes him happy too. Maybe he'll grow up to be transgender, and maybe he won't - either way it's just not an issue.
:)
Quote from: Miniar on April 19, 2009, 03:46:19 PM
The moment I found out I was pregnant I made a conscious decision.
I would not tell my family, or anyone, the sex of the child.
I would put forward a rule of "no pink".
And then when my daughter was born, there was a host of greens, browns, purples, reds, deep-warm blues. All kinds of Beautifully coloured clothes, and none of them "girly".
Her toys were rather neutral as well.
As she's grown up I've let her make her own decisions as to colours to wear and such and I've got to say, the girl is a smart dresser with excellent taste.
She's got an interest in cars and buildable things and anything artsy, but there's no doubt in my mind that she's a girl (though should that change.. *shrug* no difference to me).
I have to admit. Seeing the way she is today, with a snazzy taste and a passion for the creative arts, that I would feel absolutely unfair if I were to put her in a pink dress and expect her to be "girly" because she's not that person.
And that leads me to look at the parents that pat their boys on the back and tell them to "be tough" when they trip on the street, or put their girls in pink tutu's and call them "little princess", as if they're somewhat unfair as well, because it seems they've decided that that's who the child is, instead of learning to know them as individual persons separate of what they want in an offspring.
Like the child is a doll to dress up, not a human being.
But that's just me.
wow. that is just beautiful, and wonderfully said. if only all parents were as considerate and intelligent as you.
Vesper: you're right, and I'm not saying we should start getting in everyones faces about it, necessarily. it may seem that way from my post, but like I said, I was particularly frustrated when I wrote it. I think we should simply take steps to raise awareness of transsexuals, maybe point this colour issue out, or...something. hopefully we'll get there.
Emily: that would irritate me too. and my reply to that persons post was this: right, but penis ≠ boy and vagina ≠ girl.
I didn't even notice the gender/name confliction o_o
Flameboy: that is GREAT. all parents should be like that, and Miniar.
wow. the last reply was the worst.
QuoteIf you can tell me why I should allow someone to decide they "aren't" the gender they were born as, I will allow it. In lack of such an explanation, it's unnecessary, unnatural and should be prohibited.
I do like my reply to him c:
I'd let, and indeed did, let my kids dress as they wish...
Can't stand stereotypical dressing and as an MTF don't feel I have to dress particularly feminine because of it.
Quote from: sneakersjay on April 19, 2009, 03:40:46 PM
I see what you're saying, but trans kids are fairly rare; the majority of kids are cis-gendered. I dressed my kids in gender-specific clothing, though my daughter wore a lot of overalls and solid colors, and we didn't break out the sports motif for my son. When they were old enough to voice their opinions, I bought them clothes that they wanted, and that was that.
It would be nice if nobody were born trans, or that those of us who are came with a label slapped on our foreheads to clue in our parents, but that's not to be. There *are* gender differences, which is why we trans-folk have such a hard time being in the wrong body. If the world were truly gender neutral, would that really matter much?
Jay
Most people are cis-gendered, but most cis-gendered people still don't fit into the stereotypical slots of 'boy' and 'girl'. This is why dressing babies in blue vs pink *and all the stuff associated with that* is not just about whether kids are trans or not trans -- Anyone who deviates from the m/f binary is subject to criticism, whether they identify in their birth sex or not. So personally I agree with not doing the blue vs pink thing, because it's making decisions for someone before they're ready for it.
No, I will not! I have two young daughters that dress them selves at this point and they both love prinsess dresses from the disney store. I`m happy to say our photo albums are full of them in dresses and being the girly girls that they have clearly shown me they are. Who the F do you think you are???? Don`t tell me what to do.
Quote from: almost,angie on April 19, 2009, 07:06:12 PM
No, I will not! I have two young daughters that dress them selves at this point and they both love prinsess dresses from the disney store. I`m happy to say our photo albums are full of them in dresses and being the girly girls that they have clearly shown me they are. Who the F do you think you are???? Don`t tell me what to do.
That's great for you, but your attitude is no more helpful than the one which you are reacting against.
I see absolutely no cause for clothing to be gender-specific, especially in children. When I was a kid, my grandmother, who was born and raised in Germany, would send clothing overseas for my brother and myself. Thanks to her, my little brother, who was in his infancy and toddlerhood at the time, wore more pink, purple, and yellow clothing than most boys are ever allowed to... all because in Europe, at least in the early 90s, color was not related in any way to gender.
My mother put me in dresses from birth, but by age 5 I refused to wear anything even slightly girly. I know some parents think that if they enforce traditional gender roles on their children, through clothing, toys, or otherwise, their children will have a steady grasp on their birth gender. Didn't work for me... instead, it caused endless tumult for my mother until she realized it might just be easier to let me choose my own clothing.
My children will be dressed in gender-neutral clothing until they're of age to choose their own style. I see no reason to have it any other way.
SD
I must say I can not see the point of trying to change that part of society. While we know gender is not cut and dry for the most part we should be educating society and not try to force our view of the world on them.
Alice
Quote from: rottingteeth on April 19, 2009, 03:32:45 PM
maybe I just haven't explained well enough. let me try again.
I'll put it this way...
if people dropped the pink and blue, dresses and "boy clothes" (with all kinds of sports motifs etc), and dressed all of their children neutral, it would have to mean that they have all learned/accepted that things (gender, at least) aren't always what they appear. it would mean that people (in cultures where it is an issue) have accepted transsexuality as a part of reality. you don't think that would be a good thing?
another thing is, I'm pre-T. after I fully transition, what if I wanted to show someone pictures of me as a baby/toddler, or someone happens upon them? I'd have to explain, because the person would probably be thinking wtf, why did his mom dress her little boy like a girl? this would not be an issue if we all dressed children in neutral clothing, until they are old enough to decide what gender they are/what they like to wear.
I think it would be nice if I had some pictures of me as a child in which I'm not in stereotypical girl clothes and haircuts. it makes me sad to look at them, that I was assumed to be a girl and raised and dressed as one. it doesn't SEEM to be a big deal, and no, it didn't really hurt me, and it's not that I'm so bothered that I was adorned in pink as a baby. I had no idea. no, it didn't hurt me, it couldn't have, and I can dress as I please now (ironically, I like to crossdress) but this is NOT THE POINT! the thing that bothers me is IGNORANCE and DISREGARD of transsexuality! do you see what I mean now? and do you still disagree?
I understand what you're saying and I do agree that it would be nice if everything was just gender neutral. do I wish that blue and pink were just colours and not associated with girls or boys? yeah of course I do. but that's not how it is and I don't think parents should be at fault for this
Quote from: Alice on April 19, 2009, 07:34:22 PM
we should be educating society and not try to force our view of the world on them.
The only difference between those two things is how nice you are about it.
Quote from: Chamillion on April 19, 2009, 08:08:21 PM
I understand what you're saying and I do agree that it would be nice if everything was just gender neutral. do I wish that blue and pink were just colours and not associated with girls or boys? yeah of course I do. but that's not how it is and I don't think parents should be at fault for this
Fault is a useless word. I don't care who is at fault, but if we understand the cause of something and know that that something is detrimental, then we should do something to change it.
Quote"Boy=Penis
Girl=Vagina."
Actually it should be Boy=Penis, Girl=
VulvaVulva is the external female genitalia. Now we can go back to debating why that ain't necessarily so! Carry on!
Jay, terminology police
My 5 (well when he was 5) year old sons favorite color was pink for a while about a year. I don't think you can ban colors because what if your kid just like them. I guess when they are younger you can dress them the way you like, my son came home at 3 with his opinions and was willing to tell us or at least pick his own stuff. My other son just happens to have blue as a favorite color not sure why, the others morphed from pink to red, I think because of peer pressure at the end of his kindergarten year. He even had a powerpuff girls backpack.
Myles
Gender-specific clothing variations of children reinforce gender stereotypes to the developing psyche of the child - there have been several studies on this exact thing. These gender-specific reinforcements affect the child even if that child is too young to remember it. Culturally this is perfectly acceptable so long as that child does not grow up to deviate from the norm.
I agree somewhat with the OP, and Miniar. It depresses me looking back on how my parents dressed me as a "girl", specifically because I have a vag. If they put me in dresses and whatnot for no particular reason, I would be fine with these memories, but the fact that I have to do certain things because I have a vagina is so incredibly depressing and gives me huge resentment about it.
Dresses.. bathing suits... the barbies, dolls, pink girly toys... having to have long hair, wear makeup and shave my legs, having to wear "girls" clothes, being told its wrong to go with my shirt off, being told its wrong to sit like a man...... All because I have a vagina. Good lord that PO'es me so much. I still hesitate to do things that are considered "male". I am still ashamed of not shaving my legs or wearing makeup and all that garbage.
OK I'm overthinking all of this, but looking back, it makes me feel so depressed and ashamed about even the most subtle ways I am treated differently because I have a vagina.
Gender neutral would be nice, because all of the huge gender differences I'm noticing, based on peoples genitalia, is increasingly disturbing me, to the point of being infuriated.
Given the choices, most kids tend to dress like all their friends dress, no matter how stupid that choice is. That you hated it. Well, welcome to minority status. It does not make you right, or them wrong.
As a parent, I want my children to feel like they fit in. I don't want them to have to fight the things I fight. My kids don't seem to care at their age what they wear and more than likely they will grow up to not feel out of place as a member of their 'sex'.
Saying that though I wish there were more gender neutral choices for my kids, partly because it would make more economic sense. But mainly because I object to them being so strongly gendered. Child clothing is like over the top uber gendered. Totally pink and frilly or blue and brown with trucks all over them. They give such a strong message that there are no other ways of being.
Certainly when they are able to express a strong opinion for themselves they can wear all the pink and blue they want.
When my mom buys clothes or blankets and things for baby showers, she always picks neutral colors, even if the parents know the sex of the baby.
It's funny, coming up on this topic. When my friend was born in the late 70s, his dad got really upset that they put him in a blue blanket. Of course, he was overcome with emotion at the birth of his first born child and he had a little break down/rant about pink and blue blankets. It wasn't long after that that the hospital began using green blankets. :)
I agree with Nicky, overall, though. You want your kids to fit in so you dress them to protect them. :-\ It's a tough job, being a parent.
I have some rather conservative friends who had a baby, and refused to let the doctor tell them the sex when they had an ultrasound. They felt as though people never used to find out befor birth, so why should they? They got lots of yellow and green baby clothes.
As for fitting in, kids don't care before age four or five. It's not about fitting in, but about making it easy for other adults to gender your child. After that age, they are old enough to give you some input as to what clothes they prefer.
When my kids were little, it was hard to find primary colors or gender neutral clothing. I hate pink and blue anyway, and didn't want my baby (first kid) dressed in pastels. Very hard. Even the colors for strollers and the like were all a combo of turquoise and pink, with yellow and blue.
At least today there are a lot of bold colors, earth tones, and an array of neutrals in baby clothing. But, alas, my babies are growing up and dress themselves. My son = skater dude with long hair; daughter = quirky mix of feminine (but no pink!) and gender neutral clothes.
Jay
I have found this thread most interesting, I have to agree with Miniar and Northy, it is very hard to change things that are ingrained in generations, is it our parents, society or what.
I remember my first encounter with ''gender colors'' about 6years of age, there was only boys in our family growing up so we didn't know much about colors, it was at junior school, I remember our teacher use to punish ''bold boys'' by dressing them in a cute pink frilly dress, tie a pink bow ribbon in their hair and sit them with the girls, they used to be mortified and really hated that, it was a punishment that worked, but it never worked with me, I'd get up to mischief so that I would be punished, I felt more comfortable wearing a pink dress and sitting with girls, it was the only time I was happy at school, being treated like a girl and being a pink princess.
After I left that school I started my transition at 16, my Mam who fully supported my transition and had only sons all her life, very much treated me as girly girl daughter and ''very pink'' use to get on my brother's nerves, he came into my room 1day and stared made a remark ''ugh can't understand why you like all this ''sissy pink'' yuckie! Well I just replyed, ''I don't expect you to understand, your a boy, Im a girl, infact Im very much a girly girl and I love pink.''
Im now 52 next month, Im now a middle age woman, but deep down inside me I just love being a pink princess, Iv always love things pink girly and girlish, makes me feel pretty, feminine and womanly, some girls can be tomboys and thats ok, whatever, Im not, Im very much a soft girly girl, only yesterday I came our of the hair salon, just had my hair color done, dam it started to rain, no hat, so I purchased an umbreila from the store to protect my hair from the rain, but guess what color it was LOL old habits die hard, you guessed right, it was white with a pretty pink flower design and gorgeous pink trim edge frill very pretty, feminine and girly, I guess Im still a girly girl who really loves PINK!
My 2cents
p
I agree. The kid should be able to pick their own clothes. At that young, it's kinda hard for them to, but they could at least yank on the clothes they are attracted to. Little kids tend to do that.
BTW, DreamViews is a cool site. Wish I could Lucid dream.
Quote from: Miniar on April 19, 2009, 03:46:19 PM
I have to admit. Seeing the way she is today, with a snazzy taste and a passion for the creative arts, that I would feel absolutely unfair if I were to put her in a pink dress and expect her to be "girly" because she's not that person.
And that leads me to look at the parents that pat their boys on the back and tell them to "be tough" when they trip on the street, or put their girls in pink tutu's and call them "little princess", as if they're somewhat unfair as well, because it seems they've decided that that's who the child is, instead of learning to know them as individual persons separate of what they want in an offspring.
Like the child is a doll to dress up, not a human being.
But that's just me.
In some ways I agree with that, and some ways I disagree. I think gender neutrality would be awesome in children until they are old enough to make their own decisions. However, the reality is if a six year boy goes to school and acts like a girl he is probably going to be miserable because children are ruthless. If the case is that the boy wants to act like a girl and it is that obvious at that age, then you might as well help him start transition, change name etc. But, allowing a boy to go to school dressed like a girl would probably just be cruel at that age. In any case I would let me child wear whatever he wanted, even at school as long as he was old enough to at least realize the potential consequences. I think if parents are telling their little boy to "be tough" when he scrapes his knee they are really just preparing him for how the world actually is.
Quote from: Jocelyn on April 29, 2009, 04:55:09 PM
I think if parents are telling their little boy to "be tough" when he scrapes his knee they are really just preparing him for how the world actually is.
The world is only the way it is because people allow it to be so.
Quote from: Miniar on April 29, 2009, 05:02:51 PM
The world is only the way it is because people allow it to be so.
I agree it would be a nicer / better world if kids (or anyone, actually) weren't forced into gender roles, but I also feel it isn't actually realistic. At least not for a long, long time still. Sadly, the world is incredibly resistant to change and progression. And thanks to moronic groups like the Mormons, we can even get some awesome regression thrown in the mix. In some ways I am glad transsexualism is so rare because I probably would not wish those hardships on anyone, but at the same time it sure would be nice if it were more mainstream simply so people would be more aware and things would change faster.
PedoBear says that wanting people to keep their kids naked will only encourage all the bad touch uncles and aunts out there.
I have always said it was a good thing I didn't have a boy because he would probably get beat up at school because I am really bad at determining what clothes are for girls and which ones are for boys. I gave my nephew a bunch of hand me downs and my sister gave more than half of them back saying her husband wouldn't let the son be seen in those girly clothes. The one was a green jacket with a yellow flower and a red shovel? ? ?
For baby showers I always buy green and yellow even if they know the sex of the baby through ultra sound or baby is already born.
Also I wrote an article about the Mc Donald's that wouldn't give me my toy in my happy meal unless I told them if the child was a boy or a girl. My daughter has a large problem with that, she more than often wants the "BOY" toy but is wearing a pink frilly dress when she goes up to ask for it.
Quote from: tekla on April 29, 2009, 07:52:17 PM
PedoBear says that wanting people to keep their kids naked will only encourage all the bad touch uncles and aunts out there.
I can't believe you brought PedoBear into this... >:-)
Yes we can stop dressing children in gender colors, but things will never change, on this wonderful board we use gender colors, under guy members we see that blue circle with a blue arrow pointing upwards, under girl members we display a pink ribbon.
Apart of my experience in junior school, I never had pink in my life growing up, it was only when I started transition and the road to womanhood at 16 when pink started to appear in my life.
It was the first color I would see when I opened my eyes after my surgeries, FFS breast augmentation etc finally srs, close friends and family would send beautiful cards and flowers, mostly pink, very pink.
Pink is very much a girl's color, you'll never change that, when somebody buys me something pink, they are buying for a girl, they except me as a girl and its nice, I still have a big pink card my Mam and Dad gave me 25years ago, ''to our special girl'' and the pretty pink cuddle toy they gave me when I was complete, a ballerina.
When my brother said to me all them years ago ''ugh I hate sissy frilly girly pink yucky'' well he was a typicial boy, things will never change.
Since my transition, the color pink has played a big part in my life, its now my favorite color, Im just a typicial girl.
p
That whole color thing is a cultural deal, not universal, and before WWII was the exact opposite, pink for boys, blue for girls. But some people buy into anything.
I disagree with the original post. I do not believe that everyone should make sure their children look gender neutral based on the small odds that they might not be happy with their gender. If we do that, then why not give everyone, male and female, buzz cuts and dress them only in gray jumpsuits until they turn 18. Parents like to dress up their children. One of the perks of being a parent is to dress up their little kids in something fun or cute and have everyone else go ooooh and awwww. If eventually the child says they do not like being dressed a certain way, then different arrangements can be made. Otherwise, there is no problem.
Wouldn't it be appalingly dull if all children were dressed in "neutral" clothes?
And, for the most part, boys like wearing boys' clothes and girls like wearing girls clothes.
I do agree that children shouldn't be forced to wear clothes they hate, but what if they hate unisex clothes?
Sorry if someone else made this point, I'm not in the mood to read the entire thread.
Quote from: Miniar on April 19, 2009, 03:46:19 PM
The moment I found out I was pregnant I made a conscious decision.
I would not tell my family, or anyone, the sex of the child.
I would put forward a rule of "no pink".
And then when my daughter was born, there was a host of greens, browns, purples, reds, deep-warm blues. All kinds of Beautifully coloured clothes, and none of them "girly".
Her toys were rather neutral as well.
Banning pink.
A pink nazi.
Wonderful.
What else will you ban your children from doing?
I find that reprehensible.
Quote from: Vexing on May 12, 2009, 06:26:29 PM
Banning pink.
A pink nazi.
Wonderful.
What else will you ban your children from doing?
I find that reprehensible.
Read my post again hun.
Specifically;
Quote from: Miniar on April 19, 2009, 03:46:19 PM
As she's grown up I've let her make her own decisions as to colours to wear and such
Try and read what I say, not read "into" it what you want. I do go through the trouble of writing what I mean, as I mean it.
Hasn't anyone else seen the episode of Rick & Steve where a lesbian couple has a baby and doesn't want to know her/his gender? I am failing my search at finding a video clip
Quote from: Miniar on May 13, 2009, 08:17:31 AM
Read my post again hun.
Specifically;
Try and read what I say, not read "into" it what you want. I do go through the trouble of writing what I mean, as I mean it.
Riiiiiight.
So it's okay to be a colour nazi in their youth.
But not as they get older.
It's a colour FFS, why
BAN it?
Quote from: Vexing on May 13, 2009, 03:21:10 PM
Riiiiiight.
So it's okay to be a colour nazi in their youth.
But not as they get older.
It's a colour FFS, why BAN it?
Because I'm not raising a "pretty little princess" nor "a brave soldier". I'm raising a human being, not a "doll".
I did not let my family buy "doll clothes" for my "human being", that hardly makes me a "nazi" of any kind.
FYI, colours don't define your child's personality.
What if your child wants to be a pretty little princess or a brave soldier?
Are you going to actively prevent them being one?
If we stopped color coding gender society would find another way to brain wash us about how act and react Within their culture. Blue and pink seems to be the easy way. K I S S, Keep It Simple Stupid. I beleive cultures have always had some way to control the way we differentiate gender. Actually when the person gets old enough the individual will know which gender is necessary or prefered.
Quote from: Vexing on May 13, 2009, 03:31:01 PM
FYI, colours don't define your child's personality.
What if your child wants to be a pretty little princess or a brave soldier?
Are you going to actively prevent them being one?
And again.. I point to my original post where I said... and I quote... Again...
"As she's grown up I've let her make her own decisions as to colours to wear and such "Colours don't define personality, they don't define gender either, but my daughter is a human being and not a "dress up doll" for my family to buy "oooh so pretty" things for.
And I'm not preventing "her" from dressing in colours or being herself. Apparently you're having a hard time understanding this part of my original post, so I'll quote it once more.
"As she's grown up I've let her make her own decisions as to colours to wear and such "
Quote from: Miniar on May 13, 2009, 05:02:00 PM
Colours don't define personality, they don't define gender either,
I'm glad we agree.
Quotebut my daughter is a human being and not a "dress up doll" for my family to buy "oooh so pretty" things for.
Clearly, you thought that anything pink is designed for 'dress up dolls', yes?
Else why did you forbid it?
Quote from: Vexing on May 13, 2009, 05:22:58 PM
Clearly, you thought that anything pink is designed for 'dress up dolls', yes?
Else why did you forbid it?
I understand Miniar's point of banning pink. When people buy gifts for a baby girl, there is usually an overwhelming amount of pink and there tends to be a lot of frilly, extremely "girly" clothing (like those poofy dresses with all that fluffy stuff under them to make them stick out...). Banning pink to ensure a more diverse wardrobe doesn't make someone a color nazi. I think that's where the conflict came up. I agree with Miniar's response. It's best NOT to read into something and make a comment like "color nazi"...that's a statement that is going to be seen as confrontational and it's just best not to go there. Also, the dress up dolls thing...again, don't read into what someone says. A lot of clothes designed for baby girls are over the top and a lot of people give those as gifts because they do want to dress little girls up like dolls. It doesn't mean that all pink clothes are for dress up dolls and Miniar didn't say that. Again, just try not to read into things...we can avoid a lot of conflict by taking a step back and trying to see what the person actually meant.
Just make sure that your not forcing your own weird brand of fashion or taste or attitudes about clothing on your own kid. Might turn out she or he likes pink and frilly. It happens.
Quote from: tekla on May 14, 2009, 02:13:37 AM
Just make sure that your not forcing your own weird brand of fashion or taste or attitudes about clothing on your own kid. Might turn out she or he likes pink and frilly. It happens.
Well, Miniar had already addressed that...repeatedly...:laugh:
Quote from: Vexing on May 13, 2009, 05:22:58 PM
I'm glad we agree.
Clearly, you thought that anything pink is designed for 'dress up dolls', yes?
Else why did you forbid it?
Vex, as we've already said to one another, we like each other. But, girl, you are pretty insistent on arguing points that have been clarified.
If Miniar is letting his daughter decide what to wear herself as she gets older (prolly not so much in the first two years as most kids don't seem to express much preferences unless they've been totally conditioned to do) then I would read that as the daughter chooses her own preferences.
The fact that Miniar discourages, shall we say, his family from pushing certain types of clothing at his daughter doesn't seem at all Nazi-ish to me. One might see that very easily as an affirmative step he takes so his daughter can be a bit more autonomous about her own choices.
None of that seems particularly hard to understand. So I'm not sure I see your point except as a means of continuing on a line that's been pretty well answered by the person you're querying. Unless the point is to continue arguing. Why not just accept that Miniar has his ideas about raising his own child and how he should do so.
I mean it was just yesterday you made a really good statement along the lines of "where are the parents?" In this case one of them is right there making his decisions and allowing his daughter to make her's while kinda blocking the desires his family may have in affecting his daughter's decisions about clothing.
Quote from: tekla on May 14, 2009, 02:13:37 AM
Just make sure that your not forcing your own weird brand of fashion or taste or attitudes about clothing on your own kid.
It seems to me, of course I've only had the experience of raising a few children and so am no universal seeress in all of this, that to not influence one's children and at some point for them not to be influenced by their peers is kinda like trying to build a dyke to hold out the Atlantic some where along the middle of the Mid-Atlantic Rift and expecting the ocean to be held back in spite of the dyke being underwater.
I mean even raising a child exclusively in a Skinner Box would be to affect that child's growth and development in many ways.
Of course there will be effects. How to stop them other than to kill the child and that seems a sort of self-defeating means of doing so.
Quibbles are fine and all, but finally isn't all of that just a quibble. Doesn't Miniar have to raise his own child?
N~
Quote from: Nichole on May 14, 2009, 01:43:05 PM
If Miniar is letting his daughter decide what to wear herself as she gets older (prolly not so much in the first two years as most kids don't seem to express much preferences unless they've been totally conditioned to do) then I would read that as the daughter chooses her own preferences.
Then what was the point of forbidding pink?
Quote from: Vexing on May 14, 2009, 03:27:18 PM
Then what was the point of forbidding pink?
Asked and Answered.
Quote from: Vexing on May 14, 2009, 03:27:18 PM
Then what was the point of forbidding pink?
Lemme see. Hmmmm .... O, I know, he was forbidding pink to his relatives so the child wouldn't be inundated with all pink clothing as an infant?
Doesn't seem too hard to figure. My sons didn't get all blue for the same reason. I'd already experienced all the "pink" gifts with my oldest daughter and knew darned well that the imaginations of those giving the gifts are often limited to two colors dependant on whether the child has a penis or a vagina at birth?
Yeah, I'm thinking that that's just about what the point of forbidding pink was. He hasn't forbid it to his daughter. He forbade it then to his family and friends. Makes just too much sense to me. :)
N~
Makes no sense to me.
We'll leave it at that, shall we?
Quote from: Vexing on May 14, 2009, 03:44:25 PM
Makes no sense to me.
We'll leave it at that, shall we?
I think that's prolly what the rest of the folks on the thread have been thinking for awhile, dear. :)
Just can't leave it alone, even when I've politely bowed out, can you?
I dressed my daughter up (at 18 months) in a blue T-shirt with her father's band name on the front and little army pants (green, brown & black) with a little chain that went from the zipper to the back pocket!
Once I took her outdoor swimming in nothing but a blue and purple swim pant (those diaper swim pants)
On the first day of school two years ago I told my daughters to pick whatever they wanted to wear. They ignored the name brand clothes their grandparents bought for them. They both picked outfits I bought from the hand me down store!!! And for picture day my daughter wore a flower girl dress.
My nephew at age 20 months would walk up and down stairs in his older sisters high heels and he would fall less than me!!! and if you tried to take his girly shoes away he would cry -ohhhh.
Last year my neighbour borrowed a pair of my everyday pants for her Halloween costume. Clothes are definitely something to take pictures of and laugh at later.
I used to wear this one outfit in high school I found in my attic, my mom said she wore that outfit on her honeymoon! Ha!
For my grade 12 picture I wore green lipstick with a green dress.