All these non-op and surgery posts have gotten me thinking... if society, etc, accepted people as the gender they chose to express, rather than what their outward appearance suggested, would any of us still go through the measures we do now? Consider that all other things remain as they are now... surgery, etc, still costs as much, and carries the same dangers. If, for instance, you are mtf, and people across the board accepted you as a woman despite your having a penis, would you still want to have vaginoplasty? Guys, would you have top surgery if your breasts made no difference in whether or not you were considered a man? How about hormones?
Please really think about this... I know some people might automatically say, "Of course I'd want surgery and hormones!" because that's what you're accustomed to, and you live in this world, not the hypothetical one, but really... I'm curious as to just how much the public's view of gender has to do with how far we are willing to go.
To start it off, here's my answer: I absolutely wouldn't have any surgery; my breasts are merely a hindrance to how I'm seen by the outside world. I would, however, go on testosterone, due to its effects on my emotional well-being that are completely unrelated to how others see me.
Looking forward to folks' responses.
SD
I would still care about the breasts. I would still need them removed because they bothered me before they were big enough for other people to notice them.
I'm honestly not sure about the HRT. I like the idea of bulking up more than estrogen permits me now, and having my voice finally change. I don't like the idea of having to shave or getting hairy. Passing as a man is the number one factor in T for me. Remove that, and I don't know how much I'd need it or not.
(guess we'll see soon. maybe I'm wrong and I wouldn't be able to do without it :laugh:)
So, I would still definitely have top surgery, and I'm not sure about the hormones.
Great topic, dude.
If society was that great, then I am thinking this is at least a thousand of years into the future, and by then modern technology will be so advance to transform anyone to exact real gender they were suppose to be.
And if all genders were treated equally, then there would be no reason to do that. But the option would be available, and most likely if I felt like in the wrong gender physically. I would still change, since body needs to match mentality, even though society accepts it.
However with such a great society there will be other changes at the time, some unimaginable (mutants) while others like rich versus poor will remain.
Good question :)
I would still have top/bottom surgery as I need it for myself to feel complete. I am not to sure about the T, I would probably stay on it for a while to get my desired affects so say 2 years to get the full affects and then come off obviously if I had a hysto before hand.
I am not transitioning to make other peoples lifes easier just my own.
Jay
Quote from: Sebastien on April 20, 2009, 02:00:18 AM
All these non-op and surgery posts have gotten me thinking... if society, etc, accepted people as the gender they chose to express, rather than what their outward appearance suggested, would any of us still go through the measures we do now? Consider that all other things remain as they are now... surgery, etc, still costs as much, and carries the same dangers. If, for instance, you are mtf, and people across the board accepted you as a woman despite your having a penis, would you still want to have vaginoplasty? Guys, would you have top surgery if your breasts made no difference in whether or not you were considered a man? How about hormones?
Please really think about this... I know some people might automatically say, "Of course I'd want surgery and hormones!" because that's what you're accustomed to, and you live in this world, not the hypothetical one, but really... I'm curious as to just how much the public's view of gender has to do with how far we are willing to go.
To start it off, here's my answer: I absolutely wouldn't have any surgery; my breasts are merely a hindrance to how I'm seen by the outside world. I would, however, go on testosterone, due to its effects on my emotional well-being that are completely unrelated to how others see me.
Looking forward to folks' responses.
SD
I agree with you and that's the path I've taken for the last 17 years, there are people who accept one out there, the trick is to find them and to find peace.
Quoteif society, etc, accepted people as the gender they chose to express, rather than what their outward appearance suggested, would any of us still go through the measures we do now?
I aint doin this 4 ppl I'm doin this 4 me. I'd sitll want T & top surgery but thats it. no bottom surgery.
QuoteAll these non-op and surgery posts have gotten me thinking
non-op. pre-op. post-op wtf? ??? ??? ??? we're dudes & the ladies r ladies w/surgery or w/o surgery.
Quote from: Chris on April 20, 2009, 03:36:28 AM
non-op. pre-op. post-op wtf? ??? ??? ??? we're dudes & the ladies r ladies w/surgery or w/o surgery.
Second that! ;D
Jay
Yes I think I would. I don't really care how society sees or accepts me. I want to pass as female for saftey sake, too many strange people beat up on TG 'cos we are seen as pick-on-able.
I want completeness for me. Not for society.
But an interesting question.
Maybe one day we would not have to be genderised until we could say what we are.
Well Number 67894, you have reached 11yrs old do you wish to be a boy or girl or a mixture. Zap, Pow. Genderised
Or would we accept that?
LoL
Cindy James
Quote from: CindyJames on April 20, 2009, 04:16:12 AM
Maybe one day we would not have to be genderised until we could say what we are.
Well Number 67894, you have reached 11yrs old do you wish to be a boy or girl or a mixture. Zap, Pow. Genderised
Or would we accept that?
LoL
Cindy James
Doubt it. As it would be seen as too young to be able to realise what they truely want. My parents still think I am too young, and I am near 22. So 11 is a high no no. :P
Jay
Yea
I told my parents when I was 13. Didn't go down well. Left for Australia at 22 to build a life.
I suppose it's the legal age? 18? But when do we make the choice.
My apologies I forgot who stated the thread; but if the question was what would we do if society was totally accepting would you still have SRS?
If society was totaly accepting would you keep swapping back and fore?
Cindy James
Quote from: CindyJames on April 20, 2009, 04:38:08 AM
If society was totally accepting would you keep swapping back and fore?
Cindy James
I think a lot of people would take advantage of this. But then wouldn't it be highly confusing for most people as you wouldn't know when gender they would be from the next. I think it would also cause a lot more uproar.
The idea is good though. As each sex has its advantages but I personally wouldn't want to be a woman. But I think a lot of people would experiment with the idea.
Jay
Quote from: CindyJames on April 20, 2009, 04:38:08 AM
If society was totaly accepting would you keep swapping back and fore?
Nope...
I used to think about that when I was younger (body swaps) and came to the conclusion I would probably have kept the body, leaving some poor woman stuck in a male body. Well, I would except I couldn't do that to a person who was unwilling. Why would I want to swap back and forth, I want to swap and be done with it.
I agree with Chris, it's about me, not other people. So yes, I would still do it.
I had to do it for ME, to be complete, to be whole, and that has not changed, not even 35 years after the fact.
Everyone else already seems to care a lot more than I do. Perhaps, over the hills and far away I felt different, it seemed more urgent. Or at least more demanding in some way. People pretty much accept me for who I am. I've structured my world to be just so. And with that, other things seem less important.
I have done all in my power to not Care so much what others think. Sometimes I make my husband incredibly uncomfortable by simply talking out loud about topics we've been discussing outside while walking to a restaurant/video-shop..
I don't dress to "pass" as what I want to be seen as by others. I dress to feel like myself in my own skin.
As such, I do believe I'd have top surgery even if it wasn't a problem to anyone else.
Even without any pressure from society to make my body more masculine, I would definately have my breasts removed, because even before I began identifying as male, I knew it was something that I was going to do someday. I would also still want to take testosterone, because I really hate my squeaky voice and lack of muscle mass. (and I really would like facial hair...) Also, losing that nasty time-of-the-month thing? Count me in!
But for me, it's not really about 'fitting in' as male so much as feeling comfortable in my own skin - a feminine body feels so utterly /wrong/ to me that I can't imagine trying to live my entire life in it. Even if people widely accepted me as male without surgery and HRT, I would still feel the need to change my body because at the moment it doesn't match with what my mind says it should be.
Quote from: Sebastien on April 20, 2009, 02:00:18 AM
All these non-op and surgery posts have gotten me thinking... if society, etc, accepted people as the gender they chose to express, rather than what their outward appearance suggested, would any of us still go through the measures we do now? Consider that all other things remain as they are now... surgery, etc, still costs as much, and carries the same dangers. If, for instance, you are mtf, and people across the board accepted you as a woman despite your having a penis, would you still want to have vaginoplasty?
This is all hypothetical in the sense that for a number of reasons I've pretty much settled on being permanently non-op, and moreover identify as androgyne in the social sense. Despite -- or perhaps because of -- this I'm quite convinced that if the society was totally accepting I'd still want vaginoplasty. I suspect that I might be even
more likely to go for it than I am in the world we live in.
The reason I want it has very little to do with social acceptance, but rather it's because I'd love to have a physical vagina instead of the phantom one I've felt for about as long as I can remember paying attention to my genitals. A similar thing happened already when I got some gynaecomasty as a side effect from finasteride: the 36A breasts I have do not in any way make me
look obviously non-male, they just
feel right. Similarly, while tucking about 23.5/7 (have to take a shower every now and then ;) ) feels better than the alternative, it still isn't as good as the real thing. If the various social issues were out of the equation (including my wife being strictly heterosexual, which we both consider rather unfortunate) I might be willing to gamble the medical side of what in the end is pretty serious surgery.
Quote from: CindyJames on April 20, 2009, 04:38:08 AM
If society was totaly accepting would you keep swapping back and fore?
Funny thing you asked. This winter my work led me to spend quite a bit of time in Second Life, in an environment where I interacted with a hundred or so students both there and in real life. While getting myself acquainted with the virtual world my plan was to swap back and forth, and try to blur the gender lines as much as possible. That lasted for the first couple of weeks -- after that I'd settled with being unambiguously female, although mostly of the jeans-and-T-shirt variety. I was rather surprised at how the clear androgynous identity I have with regard to gender roles didn't carry at all into even a virtual representation of my physical body.
Nfr
I would care about one half as much. My issues with gender are split evenly between being uncomfortable being treated male and being uncomfortable looking male to my own eyes.
If society didn't care and would address me as the gender I was presenting, I think I'd still want hair removal. That would be for me, because I abhor my body hair.
As for surgery, I'm not so certain. Even if money were not a limiting factor, I'm still not sure. It would be nice (I think) to have breasts. But, I'm not so sure I'd still want to go through surgery. It would be great to have a genderqueer body, combining female and male attributes. Maybe I'd do it (if money were not a limiting factor).
If society were accepting but my financial resources were the same as they were now, no.
Hmm.. Even if I could keep my chest the way it is and still be considered a man by society... I'd want the breasts removed. When unbound, I simply dislike the silhouette they create. I'm not even sure if it's because I'm seeing that silhouette as feminine; I have a hard time seeing my chest as feminine, really (but it does mess with my head to think that someone else might think that--so I suppose in a different society, that paranoia of others seeing my chest would be gone). The breasts are... so underdeveloped and wide-set that they really do look like a case of gynecomastia. It's honestly a lot about aesthetics to me; I'd like to be able to see the contour of (developing) pectoral muscle under my skin, rather than have lumpy breast tissue obscuring it. I'd also like not having to wear tight garments on hot days/while doing physical activities (small as they are, running with 'em unbound still hurts).
As for the T... It seems to play nicer with my brain than estrogen ever did. Not sure if that is an actual or an imagined effect, though...
Of course i would. If I wasn't uncomfortable with having these body parts and feeling like they were pieces of flesh that weren't a part of my body, i wouldn't have removed them. No one knows what you've got under your clothes if you bind correctly, so the desire to remove things was inherently personal.
I would still get everything done that I plan to. It would be too much of a hassle to go through physical changes purely for social reasons.
Quote from: Mister on April 20, 2009, 06:22:01 PM
Of course i would. If I wasn't uncomfortable with having these body parts and feeling like they were pieces of flesh that weren't a part of my body, i wouldn't have removed them. No one knows what you've got under your clothes if you bind correctly, so the desire to remove things was inherently personal.
I disagree... I don't want top surgery... don't want the cost, or the pain, or the risk. I have to have it, though, because I can't bind forever. 3 years of binding at this point, and I already caused myself a rotator cuff injury. I don't like my breasts, but I'd happily keep them if it weren't necessary I bind in order to pass.
In other news, thanks all for your candid replies.
SD
I have been thinking about this for a while, and as of yet I still have no answer. I pass as female about 60% to 70% off the time. That is all I got for now.
Great question. I think I'd have top and hormones because that's what made me feel most dysphoric. The social stuff has been a definite bonus, being really treated like a guy, but that was the cherry on the whipped cream. For me, it was not being able to grow facial hair, not having a deep voice, and those bags in front that drove me crazy. I didn't have any faith that people actually would treat me like a guy, but I had to deal with those issues.
Bottom surgery is a bit less of a driving need, but if I could get the bits that worked right, I'd do it in a flash.
Dennis
Quote from: Sebastien on April 21, 2009, 01:09:57 AM
I disagree... I don't want top surgery... don't want the cost, or the pain, or the risk. I have to have it, though, because I can't bind forever. 3 years of binding at this point, and I already caused myself a rotator cuff injury. I don't like my breasts, but I'd happily keep them if it weren't necessary I bind in order to pass.
In other news, thanks all for your candid replies.
SD
I get your point, but being on the other side there's no way in hell I'd ever go back.
My best friend asked me this before I started my medical transition. I couldn't give him a definite answer, and I have mulled over the question for months.
Now that I've started T, I feel that it was the right thing to do. And I don't plan to have bottom surgery. But my top half...that's a problem. Unlike a lot of other guys, I became relatively accustomed to the top equipment I have, and I do get sexual pleasure out of my chest. And my partner likes that part of my anatomy. But when people see my chest, they read me as female. I have been hiding that part of my body for years--hunching over, wearing baggy clothes, stuff like that.
So my perceptions of that part of my body are all tied up in society's way of reading me. I wasn't sure I would get rid of the cannonballs if people still read me as male no matter what.
Last week, I came out of the shower one day when the bathroom mirror hadn't had a chance to steam up very much. And I took a good look at my top half. And was sickened by what I saw. "Those just don't belong there," I thought. "They're gross. They're wrong. I don't want those things on my chest. They are all WRONG."
The trouble is, I'm not sure where that perception, that disgust comes from. It seems to me that most or even all of it must come from the way we (in this country, on this planet, in this species, whatever) read bodies. And I have absorbed that attitude over the years and can't just toss it aside. So my loathing of these body parts has been implanted and hugely reinforced by other people. And what if other people suddenly stop reading my cannonballs as female structures? That depends on whether I suddenly stopped interpreting them as female parts, too.
If I had actually been brought up by those same "nonjudgmental" people in that same "nonjudgmental" society, I wouldn't be so judgmental about those body parts. I probably wouldn't obsess over them the way I do. I might want to keep them.
But I wasn't born into such a society. So I do dislike those body parts. And I plan to get rid of them. I will lose something when they go. But I hope I will gain much more than I lose.
P.S. I should add that these chest deformities are a terrible inconvenience because they bounce around and get in the way, and I never have used them and never will use them for the primary purpose they're designed for. More reason to wish them gone, I guess, even in an ideal world.
I think I would.
I feel like the dysphoria I have is hard-wired. It is an internal feeling of wrongness like my circuits are faulty. No matter how I express myself it is not enough, I still feel the wrongness of the body underneath. I don't like how water in the shower runs off my body, I don't like how my body feels under my fingers, I don't like how it feels when I stand still. I close my eyes and I can see it but I open them and it is not there.
Certainly things would be easier if nobody cared. Certain aspects would be much easier, like buying and wearing the clothes I want. But all of that is just icing.
Quote from: Nicky on April 21, 2009, 09:33:21 PM
I feel like the dysphoria I have is hard-wired. It is an internal feeling of wrongness like my circuits are faulty. No matter how I express myself it is not enough, I still feel the wrongness of the body underneath. I don't like how water in the shower runs off my body, I don't like how my body feels under my fingers, I don't like how it feels when I stand still. I close my eyes and I can see it but I open them and it is not there.
Agreed. That is how it was for me before transition. Even if society didn't care, even if gender didn't exist at all, I still would have transitioned to who I am today and I probably would do it exactly the same way I did.
I'm pretty sure I'd still take all the steps I've taken so far and intend to take regardless of whether anyone else cared or not.
Emotionally, I feel waaaaaay better on T than I ever did before. I'm sure some of that's psychological, but I doubt it is entirely - hormones are pretty powerful things!
In terms of surgeries, I tried for many years to just ignore my chest, but found it harder and harder to do so - this was before I realised that I needed to transition. My chest now feels "right", regardless of what anyone else thinks.
Hysto is something I've wanted forever - well, slight exaggeration, but for a very long time anyway. The junk that was in there never functioned properly anyway, and it was always at best an inconvenience and at worst a source of agony. How much of that was due to my gender dysphoria I'm not sure - but I'm very glad to be rid of it all! And it was a huge psychological improvement for me also, just knowing that female stuff wasn't there any more.
As far as lower surgery is concerned, that's very definitely something that I'd still want. When I first started transitioning I was pretty sure that I'd never want lower surgery. However, the more comfortable I'm becoming with my body, the more I've realised that I really NEED a phallo in order to feel complete. This is nothing to do with others - I could pass perfectly well without a phallo, and although it will be more convenient for using public toilets etc, that's not exactly my main motivation for the surgery!
:)
I would have top surgery cause breasts always bothered me. Honestly I don't know why women put up with them, they're just so. Unnecessary.
I wouldn't have bottom surgery. Even if it were possible for surgery to help you attain a like-bio penis, I wouldn't be interested. I don't like penises. [penii? lmfao] They're gross looking, and really random when you think about it. I only want a penis because of societal stigma. And even then, really not so much.
I don't think I will be getting on T even with the world as it is, I just don't need it to pass so yeah that portion is irrelevant to the scenario.
Love the "really random", you had me laughing! ;D
Quote from: Asher on April 22, 2009, 06:33:37 PMI don't think I will be getting on T even with the world as it is, I just don't need it to pass so yeah that portion is irrelevant to the scenario.
You might change your mind later, you know. When you start looking too old to pass as a teenage boy, I mean.
Just a thought.
And I was sort of wondering what you meant by "with the world as it is."
I do not care what other people think. I do things for my reasons not theirs.
Well I think of the scenario of being stranded on a desert island with no human contact at all. Would I rather be male or female bodied? With no doubt I'd 10000% go with male. Especially if I somehow lost all my clothes.
I don't know why, I just cannot stand the sight of my body, being female. I don't care if nobody else sees it. I see it, and it is incredibly disturbing to me. and the estrogen dominance, is killing me. I just can't stand how estrogen makes me feel. When it's high (like during ovulation), I feel sick, my entire body hurts, and I get this nasty smell like copper pennies or stale cigarettes in my nose. The high estrogen just sends my mood and my whole physical wellbeing right down the gutter. just unbearable.
So having a male body even if nobody else cared or even saw me ever, well that would just make things so much better. I plan on top surgery some time. Even though my chest is small, the femininity of it is sickening to me. and having a real penis instead of a vag would be amazing.
Since we're talking counterfactuals here, if I were stranded on a desert island, I'd rather have the body of a large cat, like a panther, or some other top level predator. I don't think I'd care much at all how I looked, but only how well I could get food and shelter and not worry about being eaten myself. ;)
Well, I don't have any plans for transition, so I'm not sure the question really applies to me.
BUT things would have been much easier for me if gender didn't matter in society. It doesn't matter to me and that was a lot of the problem. It's hard for me to relate to people who do care about gender and who treat a person one way or the other because of their plumbing. :-\
There's nothing I hate more than being seen as weaker or any of that crap because I happen to have a female body. I usually feel like I'm twice the man of people who do that.
I probably would still have a surgery. I hate my female parts a LOT, and would do anything to be rid of them.
Another "yes, I want to transition for my own good" voice here. I want the body my mind has been looking for all along.
Though there is something to be said for being a nice big predator if stranded alone. :)