Ok, here goes...
In my personal opinion they are a waste of time and I have my reasons for saying this.
Besides English I speak two other languages - Italian (fluently) & Indonesian (not too bad). What is interesting is the relationship between gender roles and the use of gender specific words in different cultures.
From a language standpoint Italian is very gender specific to the point of nouns being genderised to the extent of Arancio (m) meaning Orange Tree and Arancia (f) meaning Orange - The Fruit. Of course there are words for He and She - Lui and Lei and in certain cases even the past participle changes as in Sono andato/Sono andata and so on...
Indonesian (Bahasa Indonesia) on the other hand is to our eyes extremely non gender specific with the word for He or She being the same - Dia, and verb tenses not even existing in a Western sense.
English I suppose takes the middle ground between these polarities but uses His table/Her table where the other two languages would not be gender specific, Italian using the gender of the table itself - Suo Tavolo and Indonesian just being generic - Mejanya (the nya coming from the non specific Dia).
My point is that in all three cultures gender roles are very set irrespective of language so what is the point of trying to change the language? Surely it's the culture that we need to change to a more accepting one, not the language itself.
Thanks for reading :)
It is an interesting conundrum -- my dad speaks spanish natively and always runs into problems where he uses him/her wrong because he's thinking of the gender of the word in spanish rather than the gender of the person/thing in english. This usually happens with our female cats since in spanish it is El Gato (m).
What's tricky is that in reality language is inextricably tied up with culture -- the effort to use gender-neutral pronouns is as much about changing the language as it is about the culture, and the existence (and use) of gendered pronouns affects the way english-speakers understand gender culturally in the first place.
So yes, culture is what we want to change, but that necessarily includes changing the way we use language :P.
Really?
In Italian we have - il gatto, la gatta, il gattino, la gattina, il gattone and last but not least i gatti or i gattini! Notice how the default plural is always masculine.
My Indonesian relatives all get confused in English with He and She with often very funny consequences. Never bothers me at all to be honest but it does make me laugh :)
Quote from: imaz on April 23, 2009, 05:51:22 AM
Really?
In Italian we have - il gatto, la gatta, il gattino, la gattina, il gattone and last but not least i gatti or i gattini! Notice how the default plural is always masculine.
My Indonesian relatives all get confused in English with He and She with often very funny consequences. Never bothers me at all to be honest but it does make me laugh :)
Hmm, I guess there is La Gata (I don't actually speak fluent spanish myself), but when talking about a cat that you don't know the gender of it reverts to El Gato (but other words revert to a female gendered word, depends on the word).
Part of the thing is that in Spanish there isn't 'his' or 'hers' there is just 'su' -- so when he has to make the conversion from 'su' to the appropriate 'his' or 'hers' in english, it can become easy to confuse the gender of the word with the gender of the person/thing.
But for many english speakers who don't know another language, the idea of gendered words that aren't for what english speakers think of as gendered objects (such as a table or a plate) is just bizarre. There are objects (it) and people/animals (him/her). Occasionally you run into things like boats, which are always 'she' or 'her', but mostly not.
Also, indonesian is a neat language -- I started learning it on some interactive gizmo on an airplane (coming back from australia), but I've forgotten all the words I learned.
What kinds of gender pronouns are we talking about? My experience with gender neutral pronouns was extremely limited until I came to college. Here I've met two different friends who prefer gender neutral pronouns. My first friend prefers that they be referred in third person plural pronouns. Love them to death.
Second one prefers to be referred to as ze-gendered(ze, hir, hir, hirs). I must admit this one was a bit abstract to me at first but its really grown on me. It seems a little hard to get people who aren't "gender-conscious"(for lack of a better word) to follow along, but in a setting where people are sensitive and aware of ze's choice its a complete non-issue.
I think its interesting because, to my knowledge, languages either seem gendered or non-specific. While I see English as a gendered language, I also think that the evolution of gender neutral pronouns came about because we do not possess enough language to express gender, so the gender-neutral pronoun allows for the expression of self without constraint.
Sarrah
I get a little weird about gender neutral pronouns in English because I'm a bit of a word nut (I'm a creative writer) and to me they kind of stick out on the page -- but that's probably because I'm just not used to seeing them. I tend to use them/they/theirs when gender is unknown even though technically its not correct to do that, but that doesn't work for all circumstances anyway.
I think a good comparison with Spanish for English speakers [I'm studying Spanish, myself] is when we refer to ships, cars, or countries as "she, her." [Oops, just noticed Ketsy mentioned this..]
"She's a beaut."
"I will protect her (my country)."
You're not actually thinking about your boat as being female-bodied, you just refer to it with those pronouns. And if you ever heard anyone refer to a boat as "him," you might think it sounded slightly odd- you'd understand what they were saying but it wouldn't be quite right.
Except that in Spanish, almost every noun is referred to this way, and almost every adjective has to be modified to agree grammatically with the gender of the noun. It's ingrained in the grammar. Default is masculine, and there are masculine and feminine connotations to "they," as well. For example, when talking about a group of men, it's ellos. A group of women, ellas. But a group of men and women mixed, is still ellos. Even if there is only one man in the group and 99 women, it's ellos.
I wonder what a gender neutral pronoun would look like in Spanish? Ello/ella/elle?
A group of people(spanish): Estas personas. Estos pendejos. There are exceptions to the gender rule e.g., hand is La mano.
Quote from: Genevieve Swann on April 23, 2009, 08:05:30 AM
A group of people(spanish): Estas personas. Estos pendejos. There are exceptions to the gender rule e.g., hand is La mano.
The same in Italian.
Post Merge: April 23, 2009, 10:01:58 AM
Quote from: Ketsy on April 23, 2009, 06:46:43 AM
Hmm, I guess there is La Gata (I don't actually speak fluent spanish myself), but when talking about a cat that you don't know the gender of it reverts to El Gato (but other words revert to a female gendered word, depends on the word).
Part of the thing is that in Spanish there isn't 'his' or 'hers' there is just 'su' -- so when he has to make the conversion from 'su' to the appropriate 'his' or 'hers' in english, it can become easy to confuse the gender of the word with the gender of the person/thing.
But for many english speakers who don't know another language, the idea of gendered words that aren't for what english speakers think of as gendered objects (such as a table or a plate) is just bizarre. There are objects (it) and people/animals (him/her). Occasionally you run into things like boats, which are always 'she' or 'her', but mostly not.
Also, indonesian is a neat language -- I started learning it on some interactive gizmo on an airplane (coming back from australia), but I've forgotten all the words I learned.
Cat in Indonesian is "Kucing", kitten is "Anak Kucing", cats are "Kucing Kucing"! ;D
Koochie koochie koo.
I've always thought the whole gender neutral pronoun thing would be very difficult if not impossible to get off the ground and into the vocabulary and use of the general population...
Using they, them, and their as third person singular pronouns when you don't wish to or need o specify a gender goes way back in English - all the way back to Shakespeare and beyond. And it has the merit of meshing with some common casual habits, too. I'm a big fan.
It's worth a shot. You want to change culture? Well, language is part of culture. It is much more difficult to have an idea if you can't express it in words.
"They" is taking over, and that's a good thing. Facebook uses "they" in status updates if you don't specify your sex. Good for them. It's not just for transgendered/genderqueer people, but for general use; the old rule that if you are referring to an arbitrary person from a group of 99 girls and one boy, you must use "he" is ridiculous, sexist, stupid, confusing, awkward, and just plain lame in every way. Use "they." If you come across a nineteenth-century grammar Nazi who doesn't like it, tell them to get that stick out of their butt.
Just because other languages suck, it doesn't mean we shouldn't improve English. :P ;) >:-)
But I like how, despite the Academie Francaise's adherence to that stupid sexist rule (not to mention the Academie's existence in general), in French "une personne" is always feminine, even if there is no possibility that the particular "personne" is a woman. ;D
Think it is in most latin based languages... una persona.
Personally I don't think English is that great a language except for reasons of practicality and easy "updateablity".
As shown by that last invented word!
Quote from: Ceri on April 23, 2009, 12:30:00 PM
Using they, them, and their as third person singular pronouns when you don't wish to or need o specify a gender goes way back in English - all the way back to Shakespeare and beyond. And it has the merit of meshing with some common casual habits, too. I'm a big fan.
What they said.
Gender-neutral pronouns are a good idea, but most of the ones people have come with are awkward. "They" sounds best in my opinion, but still sometimes seems wrong to use (technically, all the time, but "their" is a lot shorter than "his or her," and is also more inclusive). In some languages, like French, the language is more gendered and thus difficult to change (it's ils or elles: no gender neutral alternative).
My neighbour asked me once why I always call girls HIM and I said oh sorry not HIM, 'EM as in short for THEM. lol Yes in all my trying to use proper grammar I still use the half word 'em a lot lol! For example "Well I was gonna call 'em back." To me 'em works for a single person or group, she, he or mixed.
The first time I took my new born daughter out in a dress 3 people said "Oh he's so cute". I came to the conclusion that in society it is socially acceptable to call a little girl 'him' and then 'oh sorry it's a girl' but if you called a little boy a GIRL by accident oh then your going to H***!
I was taught to use he and she so that's what I do. I took English, French and Spanish in school and as earlier noted the languages are a bit different however I did notice that each language has a name for a male parent and a name for a female parent. Also I am a tia (aunt).
I use 'em.
Em and 'es - and a policemun - could be male or female.
Actually, "they" isn't incorrect. It only became standard to use "he" when only boys were educated. Then they added "she" to make it more inclusive. I've always used "they" in speech, which tells me on my own that it's acceptable. It was in writing that I learned to use "he or she". In this case, I think the verbal tradition tells us more than academic tradition.
As far as trying to use words like 'zie' or 'sie', 'e' or 'em'...on a forum like this, sure. I can manage. But in the real world and in speech, it's too awkward. Not only do they not sound right because we aren't used to them (they also don't sound natural because we trip on them), but you'd have to explain it every time.
I'm sticking with "they/them" in times of uncertainty or gender neutrality. Otherwise, I'm going to use the standard "he/she".
On a side note, how often am I going to hear someone refer to me with a third person pronoun? Not often enough to get riled up about it. It's one thing if you are TS and you are transitioning/getting ready to transition and another thing entirely if you don't identify with the binary. I don't think it's reasonable to get upset if someone refers to you with the pronoun of the sex you are presenting as (unless it's someone you're out to and have discussed pronouns with...then just correct them).
I support gender neutral pronouns, and I'd like to see them formally recognized if only for the purpose of the expanding the language. I don't want them replacing anything, but I don't see why it hurts to have something gender neutral, it only aid us in description.
I don't think its very feasible for them to be socially adopted though, at least not presently.
You should think about doing a article on our wiki about gender neutral pronouns...
Who? Me?
Personally I don't believe in them as I stated up thread for the simple reason I speak a language that has gender neutral pronouns and which also has some of the worst gender stereotyping I've ever come across.
Quote from: Susan on April 27, 2009, 04:06:24 AM
You should think about doing a article on our wiki about gender neutral pronouns...
Or, to be precise, expand the much too short one that is there already. :)
Nfr
Quote from: imaz on April 23, 2009, 05:10:49 AM
My point is that in all three cultures gender roles are very set irrespective of language so what is the point of trying to change the language? Surely it's the culture that we need to change to a more accepting one, not the language itself.
I'd love it if gender roles were less rigid, or indeed dispensed with altogether. However my pronoun choice has nothing to do with gender roles, its to do with what gender I AM. Whatever society I lived in in I still wouldn't be a 'he', nor would I be a 'she'. I see the two as largely separate issues.
Gender neutral pronouns are not a 'waste of time' when the binary pronouns are wrong and cause dysphoria when someone refers to you with them. I'm quite uncomfortable with the implication that that doesn't matter tbh...
Quote from: A~ on April 27, 2009, 08:47:09 AM
I'd love it if gender roles were less rigid, or indeed dispensed with altogether. However my pronoun choice has nothing to do with gender roles, its to do with what gender I AM. Whatever society I lived in in I still wouldn't be a 'he', nor would I be a 'she'. I see the two as largely separate issues.
Gender neutral pronouns are not a 'waste of time' when the binary pronouns are wrong and cause dysphoria when someone refers to you with them. I'm quite uncomfortable with the implication that that doesn't matter tbh...
Move to Indonesia and then you will be "Dia" whether you are male, female, androgynous!
Quote from: imaz on April 27, 2009, 08:50:59 AM
Move to Indonesia and then you will be "Dia" whether you are male, female, androgynous!
How about no.
English has a gender neutral pronoun, and it's "It" - but no one seems to like that
Quote from: Jaimey on April 26, 2009, 04:19:07 PM
Actually, "they" isn't incorrect. It only became standard to use "he" when only boys were educated. Then they added "she" to make it more inclusive. I've always used "they" in speech, which tells me on my own that it's acceptable. It was in writing that I learned to use "he or she". In this case, I think the verbal tradition tells us more than academic tradition.
As far as trying to use words like 'zie' or 'sie', 'e' or 'em'...on a forum like this, sure. I can manage. But in the real world and in speech, it's too awkward. Not only do they not sound right because we aren't used to them (they also don't sound natural because we trip on them), but you'd have to explain it every time.
I'm sticking with "they/them" in times of uncertainty or gender neutrality. Otherwise, I'm going to use the standard "he/she".
On a side note, how often am I going to hear someone refer to me with a third person pronoun? Not often enough to get riled up about it. It's one thing if you are TS and you are transitioning/getting ready to transition and another thing entirely if you don't identify with the binary. I don't think it's reasonable to get upset if someone refers to you with the pronoun of the sex you are presenting as (unless it's someone you're out to and have discussed pronouns with...then just correct them).
Using they is technically incorrect, but only on the same level of, say, ending a sentence with a preposition. Okay for most people, but English teachers freak out about it.
Quote from: Mr. Fox on April 27, 2009, 09:43:26 AM
Okay for most people, but English teachers freak out about it.
lol don't I know it. "they", "them" are technically
plural pronouns and why it is considered incorrect English to refer to a singular person with a plural pronoun. Two or more people are "them". One person is "he" or "she". "anyone" and "anybody" and even "everyone" are considered singular. Language is weird. ???
Quote from: tekla on April 27, 2009, 08:56:31 AM
English has a gender neutral pronoun, and it's "It" - but no one seems to like that
Perhaps that might have something to do with
it not being neutral with regard to personhood -- if something is
it it isn't a person, and if someone is a person they should be either
he or
she.
Silly Indo-Europeans. ;)
Nfr
In Persian, there is only one third-person pronoun: u (pronounced "oo"). U could mean 'he, she, it'. This has allowed a considerable amount of gender-bending and ambiguous sexuality in Persian love poetry and mystical poetry. Like you can't tell if the poet who has the hots for "u" is gay or straight or bi or what. And love poetry that can be read on two levels, referring to either your girlfriend or God (who is symbolized by a woman). In Sufi poetry, Allah tends to be female. This is more explicit in Arabic, which uses binary gendered pronouns, and calls God "she".
Also in Persian, they use the 3rd-person plural pronoun ishān 'they' for singular persons as a mark of respect for someone of higher status. Like the plural vous in French for a single person, only in the 3rd person.
Quote from: FairyGirl on April 27, 2009, 10:18:53 AM
lol don't I know it. "they", "them" are technically plural pronouns and why it is considered incorrect English to refer to a singular person with a plural pronoun. Two or more people are "them". One person is "he" or "she". "anyone" and "anybody" and even "everyone" are considered singular. Language is weird. ???
Honest truth, I saw/read (I don't remember which) a whole thing about why "he" became the standard for unknown gender/mixed group and it was from a reliable source (otherwise I wouldn't have given it a second thought). "He" became used arbitrarily during a time when only boys were educated; there was no need to include any gender other than male in the text books.
I've always heard "they" used in both singular and plural cases, the prevalence of which leads me to accept it as valid usage.
And as far as English teachers go...well, you have to do what they want to earn grades. The exception is creative writing. The challenge there is to make it necessary...you have to defend your choice with your story. If it enriches your story, then it's necessary. If it's arbitrary, then people aren't going to understand it.
Quote from: Hypatia on April 27, 2009, 12:42:35 PM
In Persian, there is only one third-person pronoun: u (pronounced "oo"). U could mean 'he, she, it'. This has allowed a considerable amount of gender-bending and ambiguous sexuality in Persian love poetry and mystical poetry. Like you can't tell if the poet who has the hots for "u" is gay or straight or bi or what. And love poetry that can be read on two levels, referring to either your girlfriend or God (who is symbolized by a woman). In Sufi poetry, Allah tends to be female. This is more explicit in Arabic, which uses binary gendered pronouns, and calls God "she".
Also in Persian, they use the 3rd-person plural pronoun ishān 'they' for singular persons as a mark of respect for someone of higher status. Like the plural vous in French for a single person, only in the 3rd person.
Italian has "Lei" meaning "She" as the formal singular you, but it only only refers to the the person's status/respectability which in Italian is a feminine noun - signorilita'.
As for the Indonesian He/She/It - "Dia" I mentioned up-thread, it's counterbalanced by the dreadful word "Waria", used against everyone from the most masculine Gay men to the most feminine TS - meaning Woman/Man (Wanita/Pria -> Wa/ria).
Quote from: Alyssa M. on April 23, 2009, 02:17:16 PM
It's worth a shot. You want to change culture? Well, language is part of culture. It is much more difficult to have an idea if you can't express it in words.
"They" is taking over, and that's a good thing. Facebook uses "they" in status updates if you don't specify your sex. Good for them. It's not just for transgendered/genderqueer people, but for general use; the old rule that if you are referring to an arbitrary person from a group of 99 girls and one boy, you must use "he" is ridiculous, sexist, stupid, confusing, awkward, and just plain lame in every way. Use "they." If you come across a nineteenth-century grammar Nazi who doesn't like it, tell them to get that stick out of their butt.
Just because other languages suck, it doesn't mean we shouldn't improve English. :P ;) >:-)
But I like how, despite the Academie Francaise's adherence to that stupid sexist rule (not to mention the Academie's existence in general), in French "une personne" is always feminine, even if there is no possibility that the particular "personne" is a woman. ;D
I agree with languages changing in many respects. I am happy that "they" "their" and "them" evolved to become general pronouns. BUT, did you know that they are NOT gender-neutral? When looking at English it is important that you must consider nearly 85% of our language is borrowed from some one else. All those "gender-neutral" pro-nouns you are crazy about are borrowed masculine pronouns from Scandinavian. "Person" is a feminine word from French, etc. Get the picture? The only reason a gender is emphasized in a word in a language is because YOU give it emphasis, which actually makes you the reverse-sexist in the picture. Because the reality is, no one else cares. I noticed, Alyssa, you didn't really seem to mind much that little feminine pronoun you put in at the end. Possibly because it favors females? Or is that not sexist? I didn't see any one of you complaining about Italian favoring feminine forms in their pro-nouns... Oh no, excuse me, that's not an issue not at all. Plus the fact that you are criticizing languages you don't even speak. How American of you.
The thing I don't get is why on Earth do feminists, just because they are women, think that they speak on the behalf of women everywhere? I'm writing a term paper on sexism in English and guess what, every single woman I have talked to, friends, co-workers, aunts, moms, all of them, DON'T CARE that the general term for our species is mankind. Or that you attach a Mrs. to a married woman. They are women, don't their opinions count in your little committee?
But I guess you all would rather us be wearing blue overalls and referring to each other as comrade. It really is the only way to truly remove the issue of gender from the table. Well, unless you consider properly educating our children in Philosophy, Psychology and Theology courses in order to slowly but surely open the minds of each generation to accepting people of all sexes, races and faiths. Nah, that sounds too simple, lets make everyone re-write languages that have evolved and changed naturally over thousands of years...
And by the way, just because a language doesn't conform to your narrow ideals of what is and isn't right, doesn't mean that it "sucks".
There, a male perspective to freshen up this debate.
*sigh*, you might want to back off the attitude a bit. I'm not sure what exactly ticked you off, but I think you've read into things that aren't there. Alyssa was making a point that in French "personne" is feminine, even if the "personne" isn't. That's it. So I'm just not quite sure what ticked you off about her post.
A good rule of thumb is to not read into things. Take it at its face value and if you do find yourself upset by something that was written, take a step back before responding. And for the record, not everyone on here is American and many of them do speak the languages they are talking about.
I advocate gender-neutral pronouns, but achieving a natural-sounding standard can be tricky.
Plural English pronouns, regardless of their origin, are considered gender-neutral today, and while grammar purists may object to such use, using them as singular (neutral) pronouns gets my approval.
I really don't get the whole 'Gender Neutral Pronouns'. Call me old fashion, but I don't see anything wrong with 'he, 'him', 'she' or 'her'.
I have waited along time to hear 'she' and 'her', in reference to me.
Janet
Gender-neutral pronouns do not necessarily need to be used to the exclusion of gender-specific pronouns. However, they have value in refering to an unknown individual, like a baker, a banker, a CEO, a criminal, a head of state, a clothing designer, a professional athlete, a math professor, or a clerical worker. When someone refers to a person with such a title and does not know the person (and hence probably not the gender of the person), they will be compelled to use pronouns at some point, and using gendered pronouns is problematic in that people end up having to assume a gender (usually the stereotypical gender, which tends to reinforce sexist gender roles) or say "he or she" and weaken the flow of the conversation.
For anyone that is an androgyne, neither "he" or "she" will work.
The goal isn't to remove gendered pronouns from language but instead to allow people take away the gender-specification when it is inappropriate to assume one.
I simply use "she" as the default pronoun when not otherwise specified. After all, we all begin life as female. The male bits are an afterthought.
Besides, it would do men some good to find out how the other half lives, for a change.