I won't post a link, but I got a plea today from Alternet to join a cause in which I'd be trying to gain passage of a congressional bill. "Join CARE and ask your member of Congress to support the International Protecting Girls by Preventing Child Marriage Act, which deems child marriage a human rights violation and works towards a strategy to prevent it from happening."
OK, I do so understand that in many places girls and women are not treated so much like 2nd class ciotizens, but like no citizens at all, just chattel, by the goverments and cultures of the places they live in. I do not think girls should be married by age 13 (boys either) and I am dfinitely appalled by customs such as clitordectomies and sewing up of vaginas in order to enforce pain in intercourse, lack of sensation during intercourse and inability to even have intercourse as ways of "safeguarding" a girl's virginity and to "harness" her sexuality.
O believe rape laws in many countries where rape victims are regularly stoned or murdered by their fathers or brothers and where rape is a way of punishing a woman and one that is not prosecuted should are strictly abhorrent as well.
But, my congress legislating for the rest of the world? Isn't that a few steps across the line? Didn't the Bu->-bleeped-<-es prove to us that at least we should watch what we support around the world and the limits of thinking we are the arbiters for everyone else?
This push just seems too hubristic and missionary to me. Supporting organziations and politicans in such countries who strive to make meaningful and permanent change of such things is one think, but a declaration by our Congress that someone else's culture is wrong? Is that the way to go?
Nichole
There are too many people on earth as it is now. Some type of world order is going to have to control unchecked population growth somehow.
I do not think we should be the worlds policeman but the world leaders need to confront international problems. I thought that is what the United Nations is for.
I think the fact that you wrote 'We (USA) is very telling.
Of course it's a good idea. Only we know what's best for the world. :P
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 05, 2009, 02:47:17 PM
I think the fact that you wrote 'We (USA) is very telling.
I would write "We (GB)" had I been sent this by someone lobbying Parliament and did I live in GB. In point of fact until GB lost it's world dominance this sort of thing was, quite tellingly, done by GB on a regular basis." It seems to have English roots? :)
Nichole
Yeah, I'm kinda thinking "Congress, having solved all other problems, now takes up the cause of women in the Islamic and Third World."
The same people pushing for us to try and stop it, will also oppose us becoming involved in any way with those countries.
It's only okay to meddle if it suits your purpose.
Either we try to run the world or we let them do as they wish. A boycott maybe, but asking our leaders to do something is a bad idea.
Quote from: Nichole on May 05, 2009, 03:07:24 PM
I would write "We (GB)" had I been sent this by someone lobbying Parliament and did I live in GB. In point of fact until GB lost it's world dominance this sort of thing was, quite tellingly, done by GB on a regular basis." It seems to have English roots? :)
Nichole
I'd have just written GB, it might be we to me, but not everyone.
Firstly may I state that as a Muslim I am 100% against under age marriage, gender/sex inequality, honour killings, rape, murder of Gays and lesbians, FGM and so on.
It is up to the countries involved to sort themselves out, it was up to Iraqis to get rid of Saddam and Afghanis to get rid of the Taliban (not that there was anything in common between the two).
Most countries with a majority Muslim population are still suffering the after effects of what in many cases have been centuries of Colonialism and Apartheid (yes Apartheid existed outside South Africa, Indonesia being a case in point). It will take time, but change will happen. Invading Iraq, Afghanistan and sustaining Israel's appalling behaviour regarding Palestine is fanning the fires of extremism world wide. We have had enough and have lost out trust in the American state, not it's people I hasten to add.
Let us sort our own mess out, and please attend to your own poor people without access to free health care and state benefits. Without all the expense of armaments it should be easily affordable and we can stop demonising you, and deal with the corrupt bastards at the heart of Islam - Saudi Arabia.
It is there that lies the dark heart of Islam, a dark heart sustained by American weaponry and technology and married to the US oil industry.
Thank you :)
A few years ago, while I lived in Sweden, I broke into uncontrollable laughter as I watched the news and heard one US politician or another make the claim that one of the biggest reasons why "America" should keep same sex marriage illegal is because Europe would "follow their lead".
The reason I broke into that laughter was that at the time those words were spoken, same sex marriage had been legal in Denmark for 10 years, and 8-9 in the other nordic countries,... making the statement over a decade "behind the times".
Now the reason I'm telling this little compelling story is...
This seems to be along the same lines. The idea they seem to be working under is that they are the "leader" of the world and that if they pass this law, the rest of the world will fall in line.
It's just not "right". There are international agreements that prevent nations to pass laws that dictate what is and is not allowed in another nation. That is to say, USA can not pass a law that applies to "some other country", they can only govern their own country. IF they really wanted to make a difference, they could put this before the UN or any other international forum where they, along with other countries, could pressure those few places that allow child marriage to knock it off.
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 05, 2009, 03:18:29 PM
I'd have just written GB, it might be we to me, but not everyone.
No doubt, I used the "we" so as not to try to act as if I were anything other than American and subject to some of the same foibles as other Americans. Two or three of whcih have jiust been recounted by the posters above.
All well and good to detach myself from my country's actions, but that didn't seem to me to be either "right" or exactly truthful. I have benefitted from our Empire just as have all citizens here have. That the elites have benefitted more is not the point.
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole on May 05, 2009, 04:54:29 PM
No doubt, I used the "we" so as not to try to act as if I were anything other than American and subject to some of the same foibles as other Americans. Two or three of whcih have jiust been recounted by the posters above.
All well and good to detach myself from my country's actions, but that didn't seem to me to be either "right" or exactly truthful. I have benefitted from our Empire just as have all citizens here have. That the elites have benefitted more is not the point.
Nichole
That's true for all of us in the Western World Nichole. The important thing is to be conscious of it, as you are, and to try and make others conscious of it.
In the US you have the desperate inequality epitomised by your Mexican border. In Europe we have the
nine miles that separate us from Africa. Such inequalities are not sustainable and will only bring disaster to us all long term. Having family in both the developed and developing world I find the present situation obscene to put it mildly.
Quote from: imaz on May 05, 2009, 05:03:34 PM
... In Europe we have the nine miles that separate us from Africa. Such inequalities are not sustainable and will only bring disaster to us all long term.
It's a bit more than nine miles, but go from Cueta, Morocco to Marbella, Spain or vice versa and see the differences. Yes, there are poor people living in Marbella, but their poverty is inherently less relatively "poor" than those poor people in Cueta.
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole on May 05, 2009, 04:54:29 PM
All well and good to detach myself from my country's actions, but that didn't seem to me to be either "right" or exactly truthful. I have benefitted from our Empire just as have all citizens here have. That the elites have benefitted more is not the point.
too true, and to say we haven't tried to missionise the world is a lie the size of king kong. White man's burden and all that rubbish.
Quote from: Nichole on May 05, 2009, 05:14:11 PM
It's a bit more than nine miles, but go from Cueta, Morocco to Marbella, Spain or vice versa and see the differences. Yes, there are poor people living in Marbella, but their poverty is inherently less relatively "poor" than those poor people in Cueta.
Nichole
Fairly sure it's about nine miles at the closest point, one can make out the windows on the houses on the other side!
Just checked... It's even less - 8.1 miles or 13 km :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Spain)
As for Ceuta and that other enclave Melilla, I cannot believe that it is allowed for there to still be colonies in Africa in this day and age. Just like Gibraltar they should revert to their rightful owners ASAP.
Quote from: imaz on May 05, 2009, 06:40:12 PM
Fairly sure it's about nine miles at the closest point, one can make out the windows on the houses on the other side!
Just checked... It's even less - 8.1 miles or 13 km :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Spain)
As for Ceuta and that other enclave Melilla, I cannot believe that it is allowed for there to still be colonies in Africa in this day and age. Just like Gibraltar they should revert to their rightful owners ASAP.
I was talking about Marbella which is a few miles further up the Mediterranean coast than Gibraltar, Imaz. :) And a rather prominent "resort," making the norm there even higher an abyss than the comparison with Cueta or Melilla would be with Gibraltar. And yes, I agree. I think the Brits have definitely protected the Iberian Peninsula from Napoleon sufficiently and should prolly give the area back to Spain. :)
Nichole
but, but, but - Napolean - he might come back :)
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 05, 2009, 07:16:47 PM
but, but, but - Napolean - he might come back :)
Yep, and I'd bet if he did the Duke of Wellington would rise from his enchanted sleep and send Napolean back to the South Atlantic and St. Helena! You guys do still own that too, doncha? I figure if y'all gonna fight a war over the Falklands then St. Helena must be totally vital as well!! >:-)
Nichole
well if the 'mericans can keep their guns in case the red coats come back...
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 05, 2009, 07:26:36 PM
well if the 'mericans can keep their guns in case the red coats come back...
Wrong Reds.
I don't think anyone over here's been all that concerned about your redcoats since the US Civil War.
Nichole
You know, . . . I could (and I will) blasphemy Allah from here to tomorrow on this board, and you know what? Allah ain't going to do crap. Why? Well children, because Allah had like zero power in the real word, because Allah is not a real deal. Allah is one more imaginary being who had little to no power over real people.
Want me to test that. Sure.
OK. So.
Where is the thunder? The lighting? You'd think that god would smite me plenty for that remark. But, guess what? I'm still typing.
So much for your puny gods.
Edited to remove inflammatory suggestions about two different figures from two different world religions. -- Nichole
Quote from: tekla on May 05, 2009, 09:36:51 PM
You know, . . . I could (and I will) blasphemy Allah from here to tomorrow on this board, and you know what? Allah ain't going to do crap. Why? Well children, because Allah had like zero power in the real word, because Allah is not a real deal. Allah is one more imaginary being who had little to no power over real people.
Want me to test that. Sure.
(edited to remove same statement made above.)
OK. So.
Where is the thunder? The lighting? You'd think that god would smite me plenty for that remark. But, guess what? I'm still typing.
So much for your puny gods.
We will see...
And then the US complains that they are disliked by Muslims...
Edited to remove personal attack -- Nichole
Well now, two moody people found each other :laugh: In the US, freedom of religion is a right written into the constitution. There are many people from all over the world who practice a variety of religions. There are Muslim Mosques a block away from Christian Churches and most everyone gets along quite well. If you want to see the face of an American, look all across the globe. Because they come from everywhere all over the world and bring their wonderfully diverse cultures with them. Judging a highly diverse country by the decisions of a small group who happen to be in power at the time, does not make allot of sense. Look in the mirror before you point a finger.
I suppose if the USA government feels it is their duty to "civilize" the world to their ideal (note I said the Goverments ideal) then the rest of the world gets a vote in the Presidential elections :laugh:
Now that would be a really interesting series of primary's etc
Cindy James.
BTW I really like the American people. I married to one and love her family. Have several friends and on visits the people have been so friendly.
They are also really nice served with a chilli sauce and chips :laugh:
People fighting, dying, killing over whose imaginary friend in the sky has which name has gone on way too long, and its time that it's stopped.
I'm hard pressed to find anything good that has come out of these religion deals, harder still to find people who are willing to practice what they preach, as opposed to imposing it on others.
I have locked this topic.
the topic went from a discussion about a nation imposing it's will on the world to a discussion about two posters imposing their wills on one another.
A statement made by one poster and then quoted by the other was certainly of the sort that many believers of both Islam and Christianity might find blasphemous to the extreme. A staement by the other poster was a personal attack on the first poster that had no foundation in fact.
Since this seems to be such a volatile topic I have locked it and it will remain locked.
Nichole