I'm going to introduce this topic by comparing it to learning styles. Science identifies three distinct learning styles (or modalities), which it calls auditory, visual and tactile. Essentially you learn by listening, seeing, or doing. Musicians are good auditory learners, writers are good visual learners, dancers are good tactile learners.
It was initially postulated that everyone was one kind of learner or another. More recently it has been determined that everyone has a diferent ratio of learning abilities. For example, I am primarily an auditory learner, but am very good at visual learning, and suck at tactile learning. So I would put my ratio at approximately 55/41/4.
Turning to trans issues, I theorize that there are three transgender modalities. I identify these three modalities as sex, sexuality and gender. I have a Master's Degree now, and I have been bouncing this around in my head for years as a possible PhD thesis.
To illustrate the differences, I will state what I would say would be the description of someone who was 100% defined by each modality.
Sex: I want my external body to match what I perceive my innate sex to be. I want to change my external body to match how I perceive myself.
Sexuality: I want my external body to be the best match for the kind of sexual experiences and sexual partners I want to have. I want to change my external body so that both myself and my sexual partners will be more comfortable with my body.
Gender: I want my external body to be the best match for the kind of life I want to lead, and life experiences I want to have. I want to change my external body in order to facilitate living the life I wish to live.
I expect the minority of trans people to be pure examples of any particular modality. Rather I expect most people to have a ratio, as they have a ratio of learning modalities.
I also suspect that, if you average the ratios, there will be a difference between MtF and FtM, trans people. I am not saying this is an inherent difference, so much as a function of the fact that natal females have a wider range of appropriate gender role in modern Western society. By this, I refer to the fact that women have the choice to wear makeup or not, to wear lingerie or not, to dress femininely or not; wheras men really have no options in this regard. Sissy is much more a pejorative term than tomboy.
For example, I would speculate that a natal female who is attracted to females and wants to adopt a male role sexually, has less motivation to transition than a comparable natal male who is attracted to males and wants to adopt a female sexual role. So, in this example, I would expect more natal males, who are high in sexuality modality score, to transition than similar natal females.
My purpose in posting here is to gather some initial data. I'd like to know how you would rate your ratio of the three modalities, and whether you are MtF or FtM.
For example, as a highly feminine natal male who is sexually attracted exclusively to females, and is relatively ambivalent about my genitals (I'd prefer they were other but I don't hate them) - I believe my modality is primarily gender based, with sex second, and sexuality lowest, since my desire to transition is contra-indicated to my sexual preference. So I'd put my ratio (in the arrangement sex/sexuality/gender) at approximately 35/-20/85.
While there is probably a place in this theory for understanding androgynes, gender-queer, ->-bleeped-<-s, drag queens/kings and cross-dressers, for the sake of simplicity, at this time, I would request that only those who self-identify as transsexual/transgender and have transitioned, are transitioning, intend to transition, or would transition if not for financial reasons, offer answers here.
Additionally, if you want to discuss or dispute my theory; I would ask that you start another thread, and keep this one for answers only. Feel free to explain your answer in this thread, if you like. Also, since it may correlate with the ratio data, I'd like to know what state of transition you are in; but that is not a requirement for submitting an answer.
This sounds like a fascinating concept! I'd be very happy to participate:
I am MTF.
And my modality is: Gender.
More than just about anything was my driving need to be viewed by society as a woman. Having a sexual experience or having my external genitalia match my innate sex was secondary. Not that they weren't important. But Gender was definitely first.
So my ratio I would put as:
75 gender
15 sex
10 sexuality
-Sandy
Mine is purely sex and gender with 60 sex/40 gender.
My body is my main problem, with people thinking I'm a woman a close second.
Sexuality has nothing at all to do with my transition. Trust me if it did, I would stay a busty blonde whom both men and woman are attracted to, rather than become a short, dickless guy.
So: 60 sex/0 sexuality/40 gender.
Transition info: I have been on hormones for about 3 weeks and am having surgery in one week, though I came out as trans and have been living as male to the best of my non-passing ability for at least 3 years. I see surgery in a week and changing the gender on my paperwork (after the surgery) as the end of my transition. I plan no other modifications or surgeries.
I transitioned many years ago, I'm 64 now.
75 Sex/5 Sexuality/20 Gender
Sarah L.
If the Sex modality = "I want my external body to match what I perceive my innate sex to be", then that is definitely number 1 for me. Second would be that I want to live exclusively as a woman, so that's Gender. I am pretty much bisexual and always have been, so it doesn't matter all that much to me whether I'm with a man or a woman as far as what body parts I have. Therefore, Sex = third.
My ratio Sex/Gender/Sexuality = 100/0/0
Also it seems to me that my Gender modality is actually a result of my Sex modality (i.e., I feel I am a woman, therefore I wish to live as a woman and have those life experiences) much more so than it is simply wanting to change my physical sex in order to live that way, which is what your definition of the Gender modality implies to me (I could be wrong).
Edited to change the ratio after consideration of where all my motivation actually comes from. - FairyGirl
Quote from: FairyGirl on May 14, 2009, 06:07:49 PM
Also it seems to me that my Gender modality is actually a result of my Sex modality (i.e., I feel I am a woman, therefore I wish to live as a woman and have those life experiences) much more so than it is simply wanting to change my physical sex in order to live that way, which is what your definition of the Gender modality implies to me (I could be wrong).
Good point. I added a second sentence to each modality definition in order to hopefully clarify this.
Sex and gender are really close to each other. I really cannot say my motivational ratio expect that sexuality is the lowest. Nearly zero.
sex 80 / sexuality 0 / gender 20
I have complete, total, and undeniable Body Dysmorphia. I think/know/feel my male body is disgusting.
I want my body to match my mind. It really has nothing to do with sex. I prefer women. I just want a the body of a female. I want to be pretty, have breasts and I'd love to have hips and a heart shaped ass. I love shoes and I am going to go nuts shopping when this is all said and done.
If I was totally female i could sleep with a man probably but sex is the furthest thing from my mind atm. Not sure how that fits into your PHD.
Quote from: Nero on May 14, 2009, 05:35:09 PM
Sexuality has nothing at all to do with my transition. Trust me if it did, I would stay a busty blonde whom both men and woman are attracted to, rather than become a short, dickless guy.
Lol, good point Nero
As for me I would put it at 70 sex, 20 gender, 10 sexuality. The most important thing to me is having a body that matches my mind. Gender you described as a more societal thing and how people see you, well strangers already perceive me as male 90% of the time, and I'm still not happy. Being discontent in your own body I think is one of the worst feelings.
Also sexuality does play a small role for me, mostly when thinking about top surgery rather than T though, simply because I hate having to keep my shirt on during sex and my gf hates that its like this too. I think it'll make everything easier once I'm more comfortable in my own skin
I am a woman. I have a male designed body.
Sex 75
Gender 15
Sexuality 10
I am MtF. Sexuality is the last thing on my mind. In order to have the sexual experience I want to have, my body must be total female. Life experiences will come along the more I am a woman. Therefore Sex is most important. It must be altered to conform to my inner visit of my gender.
Janet
I don't really know what a 0 as compared to a 100 is, so I'll score mine in terms of the other scores I made.
Sex: 75
Sexuality: 50
Gender: 100
Sex: I want my external body to match what I perceive my innate sex to be. I want to change my external body to match how I perceive myself.
Sexuality: I want my external body to be the best match for the kind of sexual experiences and sexual partners I want to have. I want to change my external body so that both myself and my sexual partners will be more comfortable with my body.
Gender: I want my external body to be the best match for the kind of life I want to lead, and life experiences I want to have. I want to change my external body in order to facilitate living the life I wish to live.
Just to be clear, we are apportioning a total of 100 points between the three modalities. So I would mark interalia's down as 33/22/45.
I'm a FtM, 25 years old, pre-transition, I plan to start it maybe next year.
My biggest problem is gender. I want people to treat me like a male, this is the first thing that made me discover that I'm a FtM.
Second problem is sexuality, but it's strongly linked to sex. When I have sex with someone I hate him seeing me like a girl. Even if I know that if I'd be a boy I'll have an harder time finding partners :P
Third problem, last but not least, is sex. -.-
So, my gender/sexuality/sex motival ratio is: 45/30/25
I'm FtM, 34 years old, been on T for about 3 weeks. Plan to have top surgery when I can. Might have lower surgery, but it's not a high priority at this time.
Sex:25
Sexuality:15
Gender:60
For me it's mostly about being recognized and accepted as "one of the boys". Having those awful sacks of flesh on my chest really bothers me, but as far as what's down below ... *shrugs*, I'd rather have a penis, but I don't hate what I have, and there are times when I can see it as an advantage. I marked sexuality as low, since I'm attracted to men, and transitioning severely limits my choices. But, at the same time, I've never been interested in having a straight relationship with a guy. I've always wanted to be the top in a gay relationship.
Once I started hormones and living as a woman fulltime, I became pretty much asexual. That may be because I'm also *blush* 65 years old. Probably if I was twenty I'd feel that sexuality was more important. When I was married to a woman, we often thought it was nice to have reciprocal genitals so we fit together, but it really didn't matter to either of us who had what.
For me, I'd rate it 89 gender, 10 sex, and 1 sexuality, but ask me later after I fall in love again. ;)
- Kate
Think I'll explain my scores further...
I, for "myself" feel it's all about my body. I don't feel right in it and I want to change it to fit me, and so I'd love to set it at 100 sex and nothing for the others, but... the thing is, it bothers me that people see me as a woman. It bothers me to be called her/she and I've felt disgusted every time my body has been the object of heterosexual, male, desire. Even to such a degree that I ended up sitting my then husband to be down for a serious talk about how uncomfortable I was with my chest, my crotch, and the "appreciation" of such parts as they aren't "me". He smiled, giggled a little and explained that what I posessed physically that most got to him was my lower back, legs, and face and so, seeing he's not a chest-man, had no qualms with that even being flattened out..
So,.. I hate being called her.
I hate being "seen" as her.
I hate being treated as her.
So gender is undeniably a factor... even if I don't quite believe in it's existence...
So I'm forced to admit my previously stated scores are right...
sex 80 / sexuality 0 / gender 20
Like the shifting sands I have changed over time.
Initially I was basically entirely set for 'sex'; the body being wrong drove and continues to drive me up the wall.
Now that I have 'gender' basically worked out I am inclined to say it is and was important to me.
Initially 'sexuality' meant very little to me, now more so given I am no longer alone.
So, then
85/5/10
Now
80/10/10 or there abouts. (sex/sexuality/gender) I expect strongly that the low gender ratio is due in a large part to my antisocial life style. I do not interact with others that much by choice, ergo what they would treat me as would not seem to matter as much as something I am constantly reminded of (the body) or the occasional (sexuality)
Perhaps this is of some use or amusement.
45/5/50
Quote from: Kimberly on May 15, 2009, 09:14:23 AM
80/10/10 or there abouts. (sex/sexuality/gender) I expect strongly that the low gender ratio is due in a large part to my antisocial life style. I do not interact with others that much by choice, ergo what they would treat me as would not seem to matter as much as something I am constantly reminded of (the body) or the occasional (sexuality)
An interesting point. I have become very social. Perhaps that's why I rated gender so high (89). ???
(Methinks there is more to this than first meets the eye. Sounds like the makings of a doctoral thesis perhaps. ;D)
- Kate
Sex 40
Sexuality 20
Gender 40
Current situation ~Age 51, TS recognised in the last 2 years, in therapy only, trying not to come-out or transition, married 20+ years with 2 teenage children, UK business manager. ::)
My motivations are almost flat across the board, but I'm pretty sure my wife is not lesbian, so my Sexuality score is reduced.
My body shape has always had feminine traits, which I have been self concious of when trying to buy male clothes, or swimming.
Chrissty
50 gender
50 sex
0 sexuality
Post Merge: May 16, 2009, 05:37:01 PM
EDIT: I'd misread your post Gina.
50 gender
50 sex
0 sexuality
I would have to rate mine:
Sex: 45
Gender: 45
Sexuality: 10
First and foremost I want my sex to match my wiring. I have always been and always will be a woman, plain and simple.
Gender is second because so much of living as a woman is society and socially based, and that ration would change based on time in history and locale. I think few of us MtF would wish to live some secondary subservient life like that of some societies where woman are not even regarded as significant, let alone equal.
Sexuality would be last because I have always been attacted to woman, and would continue to look for a woman for a relationship. So nothing would change remarkably except the sexual orientation of my partner, since mine would not change.
Transition info: I started transition years ago with hormones, finances and circumstances prevented me from going further, so I stopped. Have a second chance now so hope to be starting again.
Sex:39
Sexuality:20
Gender:41
I would place gender first. In my head I'm a girl. Always have been, always will be a girl. Thank God I was born in the US, where all people are supposed to be "judged by the content of their character-MLK." As far as what you might call "gender type casting." I'm a girlie-girl, ultra-fem' and darn proud of it thank you very much. :-*
The 40% is first, because how society precieves me is important to me. I should probably take my narcissism to the confessional thread.
Regarding "sex," I want the physical body and body parts that match my gender. I place this at 39% because in the end it is just as important to gender for me, however I know that HRT and eventual surgeries take time. Therefore I foresee gender precedding sex.
Sexuality, the 20% is understated. However I never as a "guy" was the type to just jump in bed with just anyone, male or female. As far as "sexuality" goes I can envision having a sexual relationship with a man, in that regards I am bisexual. However after having lived as a male and listiening to how males in general regard women, I am trending to not wanting to be with one in an LTR. As far as LTR's go, I guess I really am a lesbian trapped in a mans body. For penetrive sex, thats what the toy section at the adult book store must be for.
Vitals: Pre- just about everything M2F. Escape plan in revision process!!!. Age 33. Darn this slow economy. Time to add, go back to university to that master plan I mentioned. :P
Mich'
Sex: 50
Sexuality: 0
Gender: 50
I am female, though and though, It is as simple as that, I desire to be seen as that in this world with no question. So Sex and Gender are the equally important, If for some reason I could never get SRS, My boyfriend and I would be upset but it wouldn't stop us from being with each other which is why Sexuality is zero. All I am and All I ever will be is female.
Quote from: Matilda on May 17, 2009, 01:26:24 AM
Some of us are not "trans" anymore. "Trans" was never "my identity", female/woman is what I've always been. Transsexualism was an illness which I have already cured. How did I cure it? Through transition and SRS. What motivated me to transition and have SRS? I already said it on the other board, the need to be complete, the necessity to match my anatomical genitalia with my neurological gender.
This is a debate that has been kicking around for a while. My view on it is that a person can't cure his/her history of experience, so once trans, always trans.
edit- please review the TOS
I thought through this for the last 24hrs or so.
I would have to go for 34/33/33 . I'm female, I want to nest and have a family, I want my man to make love to me and to be sexually happy. I'm happy to please him when I don't feel aroused. I want to look after my home, my kids, my man. And I'm going to cry.
Cindy. Not coping for a change
Quote from: GinaDouglas on May 17, 2009, 02:29:24 AM
This is a debate that has been kicking around for a while. My view on it is that a person can't cure his/her history of experience, so once trans, always trans.
However, if you really believe what you say, then, technically, you shouldn't be posting in this forum, the way I understand the rules. This part of the forums is for transsexuals, and if you truly believe what you say, you should resign from the group that is authorized to post in this area.
So why are you posting here?
Are you saying there is no cure for this at all? We will always be trans? I'm curious as to why you feel this way. Or why your views are fixated in that direction.
Quote from: GinaDouglas on May 17, 2009, 02:29:24 AM
This is a debate that has been kicking around for a while. My view on it is that a person can't cure his/her history of experience, so once trans, always trans.
Don't agree. I think only the peeps that know this are those who've been thru transition & GRS. All I can say is that from experience transition & surgery are life changing & the process is a major event for those that go thru it, that can have an impact on our views & personality.
QuoteHowever, if you really believe what you say, then, technically, you shouldn't be posting in this forum, the way I understand the rules. This part of the forums is for transsexuals, and if you truly believe what you say, you should resign from the group that is authorized to post in this area.
??? Maybe I shouldn't be posting here either since I don't agree with you & don't see myself as trans either. Don't mean to offend but by the site rules only Susan & her staff can tell peeps to leave or not to post.
Interesting concept you have there.
Sex : 70
Sexuality : 5
Gender : 25
Like many others I seek to align the physical and the mental - this is my top priority. My concept of self is important to me, and I'd like to bring that from a mental image into reality.
Sexuality isn't a big issue for me as disgust in the body I have is preventing all related functioning - but it'd be nice to know what all the hype is about for once (token 5 for curiosity)!
While I don't care much about the opinions of others, being seen as female makes me bitter and angry. I'm not "one of the women", an example of "progress", "feminism", or "equal oppertunities" to be held up and put on display. I'm sure as hell not "doing it for the sisters" or "sticking it to the man". Gender has a higher than I'd expect importance to me on the basis that it is imparing my life functioning (work, social, etc).
For the background - 25, FTM, starting to transition. In the process of coming out - told some family, presenting as male in all public settings including job interviews, pre therapy / treatment / name change due to lack of funds. Has fit into typical male gender roles since early childhood (fixes up cars, heavily into tech / Linux / IT).
Good luck with your research, Gina. No matter if your thesis is proven or disproven, research in the area of transgender / transsexual issues is never a bad thing :).
Maybe you should all quit arguing about this. It's done to death and always leads to grief. Matilda, fine, I sympathize with your view, though I don't completely share it. But this is a "Susan's Place Transgender Resources;" whatever you might think about the language, that's what's used here, as defined in the wiki. Everyone has a different opinionabout this; nevertheless, despite your gripes about the wording, the question was valid.
Quote from: ginadouglas"once trans always trans
my left....breast! ::) defining yourself as you like is ok, implying everybody is 'always trans' isn't.
from my sig:
Identification of those who have fully transitioned as "trans-anything" is at best demeaning and at worst deceptive.just so you know, fully transitioned equals post grs
Quote from: Natasha on May 17, 2009, 08:09:08 PM
my left....breast! ::) defining yourself as you like is ok, implying everybody is 'always trans' isn't.
from my sig: Identification of those who have fully transitioned as "trans-anything" is at best demeaning and at worst deceptive.
just so you know, fully transitioned equals post grs
agreed. as I have said time and time again-- some TS people consider themselves as having a medical condition while others consider themselves the bearers of a cultural identity. Labeling someone else is pretty damn uncouth.
Post Merge: May 18, 2009, 02:50:19 AM
Quote from: CindyJames on May 17, 2009, 05:15:15 AM
I would have to go for 34/33/33 .
Which one gets the 34? For a second, I thought you were going to bring out the decimals. :)
Quote from: CindyJames on Yesterday at 06:15:15 am
I would have to go for 34/33/33 .
Which one gets the 34? For a second, I thought you were going to bring out the decimals.
Damn, didn't think of that :laugh:
Quote from: Teknoir on May 17, 2009, 11:27:52 AM
Sexuality isn't a big issue for me as disgust in the body I have is preventing all related functioning - but it'd be nice to know what all the hype is about for once (token 5 for curiosity)!
It seems to me that if disgust with your body interferes with your sex drive, then with a right body you would be more interested in sex. If that's the case, then your sex modality ratio would be higher.
I am similar to Sandy
75 gender
15 sex
10 sexuality
We spend most of our waking lives dealing with other people. How I am perceived with them is important to me. I detest being called a guy or being included in male bonding. Not anymore. On the other hand, it is a new challenge to deal with being dismissed because I am a woman. While I knew that was going to be an issue, I didn't see it being so dominant.
Maggie
Quote from: GinaDouglas on May 18, 2009, 07:53:44 AM
It seems to me that if disgust with your body interferes with your sex drive, then with a right body you would be more interested in sex. If that's the case, then your sex modality ratio would be higher.
Maybe post transition the drive will appear (I am curious to see if it does - that's why it's not flat 0), but as it's a non-entity right now it's not a motivation to transition. Missing the drive does not concern me as I have enough distractions to keep me amused.
I've noticed quite low sexuality scores in general. Perhaps that's due to us having to face issues of sex and gender more frequantly than sexuality?
That said, I have to wonder if there's another split between gender and sex based on more of an introvert / extravert thing (eg, introverted people giving higher precedence to sex, extraverts more of a 50 / 50 split).
Definitely my own body image first, then with my gender being fairly important in its own ways, just not quite the same.
Put it this way - let's say I was given the choice between two opposites: one potion that makes me completely physically female, yet outside my abode I must wear male clothing, binding, and act manly enough to pass male; or another one that makes my own eyes perceive my body as fully male, yet in reality becoming the most beautiful, heavenly girl to ever walk among mere mortals, exuding feminine charm, being the desire of most men and the envy of most women.
I'd pick the first one without another thought. Don't get me wrong, though, I'd have it both ways if I could. :laugh:
As for sexuality... it hardly crosses my mind. As long as I'm with the person I truly love, then I'm happy. :)
I think the potion-choice concept is an interesting way to get at this. But I don't think your potions really get at it.
The way I see it, for FtMs, the potion representing sexuality would be, you always see yourself as female, but others see you as male, including sex partners. The sexuality potion would be you are only female when you have sex. The gender potion would be you always see yourself as male in private, except you would see yourself as female when you were getting ready to go out, and everyone sees you as female in public, yourself included; but you would be male during sex.
But remember, the whole point is about ratios, so you wouldn't have to choose one potion exclusive of the others. Just how much you would like having each potion, in comparison to the others.
The thing is, when I put it this way, it changes my scores. I'd hate the sex potion, but would like the sexuality potion almost as much as the gender potion. So I'd be something like -10/50/60.
Curiouser and curiouser.
The reason why I don't put any points into sexuality is because I'm already married to a man that treats my tiny little guy as a penis, and me as a man, and so, I'm quite content in that aspect.