I am a Wicca, and I was transsexual. As a former member of the LDS church, and as a visitor of different services, I think of being able to permit to myself a judgment.
In most Christian churches transsexual people (or other TG) aren't seen with pleasure, and are patient at best ".
How, however, does it look to my religion which is a goddess's religion? Are transsexual people also condemned here? How was it in ancient times? And how does the goddess see tg people?
What do you mean?
I know the answer, but I would hear with pleasure your opinion in addition.
The answer is "It depends." Some prominent Wiccans and other pagans are vehemently trans-phobic, because they have this notion of two, precisely two, never-changing sexes as essential t the structure of the universe. So anything that threatens that is evil, anti-nature, and anti-Goddess. I'm really not exaggerating; you can find this kind of claim in some of Starhawk's books, and among some Dianic writers, among others.
Others take the view that the creative force of the universe is big and generous enough to encompass all kinds of people, and that what leads you to be at peace with yourself and able to view the world with love, courage, a desire for justice, and an appreciation for beauty and wonder proves itself good.
I'm one of the latter. :)
My opinion is this:
Most people are unable to seperate transexuality from homosexuality. So, to them, transsexuals are gay, and being gay is a sin. When you sin, you go to Hell. End of story.
But, if you consider that God is kind, loving and forgiving, then he as our Father has no choice but to accept us into his arms in Heaven.
Does this mean that we can do whatever we please on this earth with no fear of eternal damnation? No, it doesnt. The catch is that when we stand in front of the Father, we have to be truly repentant for the wrongs that we commited on this earth, and accept his forgivness. If we cant do that, then its eternal damnation. The choice is always ours.
As wiccans though, we don't buy into the "sin" concept.
In my experience most wiccans are generally open-minded and accepting.
*shrugs*
I will, however add to that, that I've met some very right-wing christian people that have surprised me and been accepting and loving.
Yeah, I've come to believe that some qualities of basic decency and respect really are completely independent of what we think our values are. :)
I'm new to Wicca, but if I'm permitted an observation, I'd say that many traditions, and (neo)pagan religions in general, are much more tolerant and accepting of LGBT folk than the Abrahamic religions. Sure, there are definitely some intolerant ones, as Ceri mentioned, but by and large it seems much more inclusive and supportive than the Abrahamic religions... in my limited experience, that is.
Oh, overall, definitely. It's just that it's unwise to take Wiccan or pagan gatherings in general as truly safe space until you know this particular group well. Usual stuff.
In ancient matriarchal cultures the people who were trans-identical weren't only accepted, but also were estimated. A special nearness was ascribed to them to the goddess. In the modern paganism tg people are accepted generally, except in certain directions of the Craft. Zsuzsanna Budapest is such a person. She founded the Feminist Wicca, a breakaway of the Dianic Wicca. She refuses transsexuals. I was once in hercoven on the Internet, and experienced it on own body. Funnily, that both, fundamentalists and separatists which bring out biology to exclude somebody. So, as if the biology was an everlasting destiny. The fact that it isn't this, we know it better.
This is also the reason, why I work alone.
Did you know that there were divinities which could change their figure, or their sex, in such a way, as people did it with their clothes?
Unfortunately, humans are humans regardless of their religion or philosophy.
Groups become cliquish, and politics erupts.. so it has been within the craft for a very long time, and with that comes those who are "in" and those who are "not".
Many feminist groups/covens tend to be biologically centric, but there are exceptions.
Self-determinism, self-reflection, self-definition and centered life have been facets of many spiritual avenues. This usually goes out the window when a group begins and someone becomes a leader, whether by election, decree or by force of will. There are entire traditions based on one person's views on what the craft should be. And within the trads.. prejudices can run deep.
Scott Cunningham was openly gay and for the most part lauded and accepted for his contributions and wisdom.. There are still those who despise him for having been gay.
For the Goddess; we are all her children, and like children, we often don't play well together tho siblings we be.
Shana
Not a wiccan, but a pagan;
I studied wicca for a little while. One of the concepts that are mentioned in more than one of my books on the subject is the idea that "god and goddess" are not seperate, but interconnected. That they are two sides of "one" divinity. As such, the god is the goddess and vice versa.
As a Wiccan, I see most other practitioners are more open to gender variations. Just as in any belief system, there are people who are closed minded. But the belief in a Goddess and a God shows the gender-duality in the Supernatural world. And being of two-spirited, Transpeople are more in tune to the gods. At least that is how I see it.
I have read most of Scott's book on Wiccan practices. Especially the "Sole Practitioner".
Quote from: Feever on May 20, 2009, 07:35:01 PM
Does this mean that we can do whatever we please on this earth with no fear of eternal damnation? No, it doesnt. The catch is that when we stand in front of the Father, we have to be truly repentant for the wrongs that we commited on this earth, and accept his forgivness. If we cant do that, then its eternal damnation. The choice is always ours.
You play too much dungeons and dragons.
There's no such thing as too much Dungeons & Dragons.
Quote from: Kaitlyn on August 21, 2009, 04:23:42 AM
There's no such thing as too much Dungeons & Dragons.
Truth.
Quote from: Kaitlyn on August 21, 2009, 04:23:42 AMThere's no such thing as too much Dungeons & Dragons.
Agreed. ;D No such thing as "eternal damnation" either; it's an oxymoron. Anyway it doesn't apply to fairies, as our father is the primeval life force and our mother is Nature Herself. Fairies' beliefs about gender are quite flexible, as our genders and gender expressions tend to be.
From fairiesinamerica.com:
QuoteGender and the Faery Tribe
"Nobody has a right to determine anyone else's gender,
Thank you."
Sex is biological. Gender, as faeries believe, is mutable. Shapeshifting is part of our magic. When masculine and feminine are joined within, the highest states of consciousness can be reached, and we can access directly the divine. We all have the power to do this, whether we are human or fairy beings. Yet fairies do this naturally, as part of our ritual with the world. Being able to move between the two worlds also yields other sublime states. In sexual acts, one can be either or, and the sacredness of the act is sanctioned through this exchange.
Quote from: Heartwood on August 21, 2009, 04:53:17 AM
Truth.
Pfffff. I dont hate d and d. I just think that a lot of door to door preachers look like they're LARPing c:
Quote from: Kara-Xen on August 22, 2009, 07:37:40 PM
Pfffff. I dont hate d and d. I just think that a lot of door to door preachers look like they're LARPing c:
I wish they were just LARPing.
Live action role playing? ah the line between game and all seriousness, and the boundless authenticity from which she is enamored, they were born in the yogic poses, and from ages beyond, boundless and blissful at the sight of the night sky. The illusory nature of reality is such that, all is equally gamelike, and thus the playing of a role, even no conception of roles, all relates to the rest, thus can there be said to be time? Why is the mediterreannean dictionary based mostly on the herbs of the field? and why are the herbs of the field so calm? There were wild dogwoods and like a stag, I ran...
the expanse was thick with the joy of life, I ate leaves and berries and the occasional mushroom, I ran with a herd and alone.
One day, when the sun came up, I woke up and was grazing around in a valley, and there was a seashell, and the spiral gave me a feeling of nolstagia, for my life as a snail, and a hermit crab.
Where can I get some of that?
Whats scary is that I have the phallus and I have breasts and yet I magically still cannot pump out babies like the next, "Now thats what I call music."
Therefore I must be an evil, 12 eyed, horned creature that wants to shoot fire out of its armpits and destroy the giant blunt holding the world in place. Once the Great Blunt has burned all the way through, the Earth will fall into an ocean of blood and M. Night Shamaylan movies with mouths... Those mouths, you see, have 4 rows of teeth... And if you make the same mistake I did to have 3 mounds of flesh instead of 2 or 1, those teeth will remember you... And as they buzzsaw your soul apart, you'll be injected with an intravenous version of "The Last Airbender"
DONT YOU GET IT? THE GREAT BLUNT LOVES EVERYONE... EXCEPT YOU! Sucks to be you, huh? Well its all ok, cause even though you're gonna be buzzsawed anyway, you can apologize for being a three-mounded freak of blunt by walking into this building we made. Whats in the building? Nothing, except there's a Jedi Knight! And he comes out and in a monotonous, dutiful voice, he explains to you from a plastic covered book exactly HOW the fish will tear your organs out (Buzzsaw bbbbzzzzzz), and why. And if you think his voice is too dutiful and un-melodic, there's even a halftime inbetween the eloquent, beautiful words read by the Jedi to tell you how doomed you are. The halftime has cookies and alcohol... Cause NOTHING says you're sorry for being such a freak, like cookies and alcohol can.
GODDESS!
Post Merge: July 30, 2010, 10:34:27 PM
The Goddess is ready to shower Her love and affection on any who care to turn their gaze toward Her luminous heart.
Quote from: Witch of Hope on May 20, 2009, 07:27:32 PM
How, however, does it look to my religion which is a goddess's religion? Are transsexual people also condemned here? How was it in ancient times? And how does the goddess see tg people?
What do you mean?
I know the answer, but I would hear with pleasure your opinion in addition.
I once went to neo-hindu cult, because they worshipped Goddess and The Feminine Principle, shakti. But found out that this was just talk, and remained a theory.
In reality, yoginis admired the dominating alpha males, and the leaders were masculine type men, or very rarely, masculine type women - right-sided women, as it was called. It was such a dissappointment to see.
A lot of talk, how left-side is the side of mother, of goddess, how left-sided people should rule, how laksmi is such sweet and how the ego should be put aside... Talk, talk.. but no substance in it.
I think it's just not easy, to get close to Goddess.
A more deeper change is required, than just a change of religion/group. Just talking about femininity is not enough. There should be genuine respect towards femininity, in whatever form she chooses to manifest.
I guess it is the same as with Chritianity. In bible is said that Jesus preferred Mary to Martha, but always when I have seen christians reading that, they explain that "it really means that Martha is so precious, valuable".. "Jesus wished to praise Martha.." etc... To my disappointment this attitude was in yoga too.
Idk i have read that there somes transgendered gods and goddesses as well as transgendered people were once seen as mytics and were highly respected for the ablility to align with both the god and goddess. I don't remember much but if you want you check out Goth Craft by Raven Digitalis he explains it better than I can heh
Know it's kinda late for this but here's a little something bout it here and I quote from Goth Craft:"Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgendered, and intersexed people have been, throughout history, quite respected on the magickal path. They carry asociations of both genders and thus are recognized as having the unique ability to channel the polarities of male and female, the powers of the God and Goddess. People of alternative sexual orientation were seen as mystics, capable of harnessing immense strength and channeling Spirit directly. Because Spirit is androgynous, queers were aligned directly with the sacred source. Spirit is both masculine and feminine, but at the same time is neither. Deiities are personifications of the Great All, and have been given appropriate character traits in each pantheon to encompass all aspects of reality, including homosexuality and the like." I hope this helps.
We are natural spiritual beings. I have noticed a certain quality of character in the trans population that is of the spirit that most of the rest of the world simply do not. It doesnt seem to matter if the person is a Church Decon or a Wiccan Priestess or just someone who believes deeply those of us who are spiritual are unique and I can sense that unique quality.
The ancient cultures saw this and respected us.
Too bad we are not respected like the Phrygian preistess's were. Culture has gone backwards when it comes to us instead of forward when you look at our history.
"The symbol of Goddess gives us permission. She teaches us to embrace the holiness of every natural, ordinary, sensual dying moment. Patriarchy may try to negate body and flee earth with its constant heartbeat of death, but Goddess forces us back to embrace them, to take our human life in our arms and clasp it for the divine life it is - the nice, sanitary, harmonious moment as well as the painful, dark, splintered ones.
If such a consciousness truly is set loose in the world, nothing will be the same. It will free us to be in a sacred body, on a sacred planet, in sacred communion with all of it. It will infect the universe with holiness. We will discover the Divine deep within the earth and the cells of our bodies, and we will lover her there with all our hearts and all our souls and all our minds."
― Sue Monk Kidd, The Dance of the Dissident Daughter: A Woman's Journey from Christian Tradition to the Sacred Feminine
As a Dianic Witch it is so frustrating to see misandry disguised as spirituality and people who believe in energies dismiss my entire lived experience. I believe we have souls and the body is merely a vessel to hold them. Masculine and Feminine energies are part of someones spirit, and the more dominant energy shapes your identity. For me a transsexual woman I have a woman spirit in a male body. I think genderqueer people have an about equal amount of both that's why they identify as none or either. For people who believe in the manipulation of energy into creating change aka Magick I think this is a very easy concept to understand. The Goddess is not human she is the Divine Creatrix of the Universe. She is energy that makes up the entire universe. There are biological females who do not menstruate and can not get pregnant. There are also women born with ambiguous genitalia and extra sets of chromosomes. Should they not be allowed to worship the Goddess among their sisters too because they do not know what it is like to experience the women's mysteries completely? Why is it ok to exclude someone because of their biology? For me I don't understand how biology really matters when we are worshiping the Goddess who is energy and not Human Female Biology. I personally feel more connected to crone energy. I can not give birth as a woman would. My womb is barren. Honoring that is important to me. Do I dare enter a Dianic circle where I wouldn't be welcome. No, because I respect women's spaces and alot of what Dianic authors say about that issue makes sense to me. This is why I remain solitary for all these years. I hope to one day start my own coven, and wish the CAYA coven had a Southern California branch. I have found a circle open to all self identified women but it is at the new moon. The coven is called the Inner temple and located in Santa Monica. You can find information about their New Moon Circle on their website. It is invitation only. Since I'm in the Inland Empire I don't exactly have choices. At the new moon I worship a particular Goddess only unlike on a Full Moon when I'm more flexible. I wish they offered a women only Full Moon ritual but they don't. I also don't feel comfortable being in a Wiccan coven because they honor the God. I identify as a Dianic Witch and not a Wiccan for that and other reasons. I hope one day I will find a coven that welcomes me. Blessed Be ) O (
There's definitely a difference, though, between Male/Female equilibrium in spirit and the male-dominated direction that religion has taken since the dawn of literacy. The veneration of the Goddess, today, is to bring her energy back into the world for the very purpose of attaining that equilibrium.
Any fellow venerators of the Goddess might be interested in learning about Ophidian Thelema, a sub-sect of the initial religion of Thelema brought to the world by Aleister Crowley and his wife Rose Edith Kelley in 1904.
Thelema (as well as the traditions of The Order Of The Golden Dawn) served as inspiration when Gerald Gardner was forming the basis of what would eventually be called Wicca. The Thelemic motto — "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law; love under Will" — would be shorted and simplified into the Wiccan Rede, "An ye harm none, do what ye will". They each have their own specific meaning, but ultimately only one, and that is to do your work without interfering in anyone else's life.
Ophidian Thelema is unique in that it focuses more intensely on the Goddess/Feminine energy and symbolism while traditional Thelema simply gives importance to all things equally; no special attention other than what is necessary.
"We are called Ophidian Thelemites because we acknowledge the importance of the Book of the Law as a new proclamation of this our Ancient Tradition of the Serpent, the Spirit. We are the followers of the Serpent, or the Spirit, within Thelema. Ophidian Thelemites follow the Seven Guiding Principles as delivered by Babalon, the current incarnation of the Great Liberating Mother throughout time...
Ophidian Thelemites are devotees of the Goddess Babalon. Because of this, Ophidian Thelemites follow the Balanced Ecstatic Path of the Liberation of the Spirit, of the Serpent, from the bonds of the Persona. As Babalon Herself says. "My Vocation is the Serpent"...
...there is no one image of the female. It is changing with every day of the Moon. The Sun is always the Sun. The female is different every day...
Thus, because of the Will of the Spirit we are Thelemites. And because we are Devotees of Babalon, and of the Spirit itself, and Her Mother, and of the Female, and of the Lineage - because of all of this and more - we are Ophidian."
http://www.templeofbabalon.com (http://www.templeofbabalon.com)
Sadly a lot of the hardcore Dianic Wiccans of the Z. Budapest/Starhawk school of thought despise transwomen and have accused us as trying to "infiltrate" sacred space. It really is trans-bigotry, misandry, and hatred all rolled up into a nasty ball of wax.
Quote from: Wynternight on October 06, 2014, 11:54:52 AM
Sadly a lot of the hardcore Dianic Wiccans of the Z. Budapest/Starhawk school of thought despise transwomen and have accused us as trying to "infiltrate" sacred space. It really is trans-bigotry, misandry, and hatred all rolled up into a nasty ball of wax.
I just don't understand the trans misogyny. Your physical sex is not what emanates the spirit. Masculine or Feminine energy is beyond the tangible world. All that should matter is which one you choose to embrace and radiate into your work
and your daily life. That's why I love Thelema, because you can be a cis man and choose to represent Nuit, or a cis woman and choose to represent Hadit. Anyone who considers themselves spiritual (and/or pagan) should have no concern at all with the vessel if what it carries, evokes and projects is the appropriate force.
But then... I have a friend who is an active member of OTO in Canada, is lesbian and the most I can say is that she is trans-friendly, to your face, but she subscribes to Radical Feminist views. I haven't seen her actually write anything of her own expressing that, but she's posted a few things on Tumblr that are blatantly bigoted. One of them was a photo of a women's restroom sign with part of the 'W' blacked out so it looks like "NOMEN", basically implying that we are all just male-identified weirdos looking to "invade women's spaces". I also saw another re-blogged statement saying something like 'there's no such thing as men with female brains'. It makes me sad, because she is a sweet person, and has never criticised me for transitioning, and yet she posts this stuff. I used to love talking with her, but now I feel like I've been stabbed slowly in the back. If you want to peruse her page her nickname is
Lucifelle.
Quote from: sororcaeli on October 06, 2014, 01:35:07 PM
I just don't understand the trans misogyny. Your physical sex is not what emanates the spirit. Masculine or Feminine energy is beyond the tangible world. All that should matter is which one you choose to embrace and radiate into your work and your daily life. That's why I love Thelema, because you can be a cis man and choose to represent Nuit, or a cis woman and choose to represent Hadit. Anyone who considers themselves spiritual (and/or pagan) should have no concern at all with the vessel if what it carries, evokes and projects is the appropriate force.
But then... I have a friend who is an active member of OTO in Canada, is lesbian and the most I can say is that she is trans-friendly, to your face, but she subscribes to Radical Feminist views. I haven't seen her actually write anything of her own expressing that, but she's posted a few things on Tumblr that are blatantly bigoted. One of them was a photo of a women's restroom sign with part of the 'W' blacked out so it looks like "NOMEN", basically implying that we are all just male-identified weirdos looking to "invade women's spaces". I also saw another re-blogged statement saying something like 'there's no such thing as men with female brains'. It makes me sad, because she is a sweet person, and has never criticised me for transitioning, and yet she posts this stuff. I used to love talking with her, but now I feel like I've been stabbed slowly in the back. If you want to peruse her page her nickname is Lucifelle.
I've read enough venom from the TERF crowd. I'm Dianic at heart and as long as the Goddess accepts me as is the TERFS can go perform anatomically impossible acts of self love.
I wish they'd understand that true Feminism is not about replacing one with the other, but bringing them into balance. There cannot be wholeness in spirit and in mind if the Sacred Masculine and Sacred Feminine are not united in Holy Androgyny. There is no initiation without union. 1+1=0.
Quote from: sororcaeli on October 06, 2014, 01:58:25 PM
I wish they'd understand that true Feminism is not about replacing one with the other, but bringing them into balance. There cannot be wholeness in spirit and in mind if the Sacred Masculine and Sacred Feminine are not united in Holy Androgyny. There is no initiation without union. 1+1=0.
Those kinds of people wouldn't know true spiritual feminism if it came and bit them in the arse. For them it's all about scorn and vitriol.
"Isis am I, and from my life are fed all showers and suns, all moons that wax and wane, all stars and streams, the living and the dead, the mystery of pleasure and of pain. I am the Mother. I the speaking sea. I am the Earth in its fertility. Life, death, love, hatred, light, darkness, return to me, to me. Isis am I, and to my beauty draw. All glories of the Universe bow down, the blossom and the mountain and the dawn. Fruits blush and women are creations crowned."
— Aleister Crowley, "Isis Am I"
from Tannhaüser (http://hermetic.com/crowley/collected-works/i/) and as it appears in Rite of Venus (http://hermetic.com/crowley/the-rites-of-eleusis/venus.html)
Quote from: Illuminess on November 10, 2014, 08:05:48 AM
"Isis am I, and from my life are fed all showers and suns, all moons that wax and wane, all stars and streams, the living and the dead, the mystery of pleasure and of pain. I am the Mother. I the speaking sea. I am the Earth in its fertility. Life, death, love, hatred, light, darkness, return to me, to me. Isis am I, and to my beauty draw. All glories of the Universe bow down, the blossom and the mountain and the dawn. Fruits blush and women are creations crowned."
— Aleister Crowley, "Isis Am I"
from Tannhaüser (http://hermetic.com/crowley/collected-works/i/) and as it appears in Rite of Venus (http://hermetic.com/crowley/the-rites-of-eleusis/venus.html)
What a beautiful statement I had no idea Crowley spoke of the Goddess I think of him as being very Dark Arts and Demonic orientated Margaret Murray had a huge influence on Gardner regarding bringing the Goddess into the practice of Wicca. He was an interesting character to say the least, and from what I read was very patriarchal and that speaks of the times in which he lived. That contributes to the fact that I don't identify as Wiccan but as a Witch. This has been a great thread with such meaningful discussion. I wish that it could be presented on a more open platform to reach a wider audience of the pagan community. I love what one woman said about the Goddess accepting her regardless of what other Dianics believe. It is however so frustrating to remain a solitary. I am thinking of starting my own coven someday. Or even moving where there is one. I crave community with other women. Group ritual is so very powerful and transforming. That is how I see it. I'm not going to choose another path because of political idealogy. This is the path that has chosen me. I think the tides will change they already are. Blessed Be ☽O☾
Quote from: riotgrrrl on November 11, 2014, 12:30:40 PM
What a beautiful statement I had no idea Crowley spoke of the Goddess I think of him as being very Dark Arts and Demonic orientated Margaret Murray had a huge influence on Gardner regarding bringing the Goddess into the practice of Wicca. He was an interesting character to say the least, and from what I read was very patriarchal and that speaks of the times in which he lived. That contributes to the fact that I don't identify as Wiccan but as a Witch. This has been a great thread with such meaningful discussion. I wish that it could be presented on a more open platform to reach a wider audience of the pagan community. I love what one woman said about the Goddess accepting her regardless of what other Dianics believe. It is however so frustrating to remain a solitary. I am thinking of starting my own coven someday. Or even moving where there is one. I crave community with other women. Group ritual is so very powerful and transforming. That is how I see it. I'm not going to choose another path because of political idealogy. This is the path that has chosen me. I think the tides will change they already are. Blessed Be ☽O☾
Crowley is a fantastically misunderstood figure. He was really the first shockrocker of the era - turning Victorian sensibilities on their ear and having a grande time doing it. Some of his exploits were covers for his work for British Intelligence during the War and others the work of a supremely intelligent man bored with the era he lived in and wanting to stir things up. He rejected dogmatic thinking and wanted a new era of spiritual enlightenment.
This is an interesting read:
http://ac2012.com/2012/08/05/aleister-crowley-myths-actually-true/
Quote from: riotgrrrl on November 11, 2014, 12:30:40 PM
from what I read was very patriarchal and that speaks of the times in which he lived.
(https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/p417x417/994349_374641696001649_337207292_n.png?oh=e5690e00b7a7ecb04f033868f90472a4&oe=551CC645)
I was talking about Gardner not Crowley when I said "from what I read was very patriarchal and that speaks of the times in which he lived." For example here some tidbits from The Old Laws or the Ardanes by Gerald Gardner, attributed to the New Forest Coven, 1957 "For the Gods love the Wica, as a man loveth a woman by mastering her." "For in this way only may man have communion with the Gods, for the Gods cannot help man without the help of men. "
"But the Priestess should ever mind that all power comes from him. It is only lent when it is used wisely and justly. And the greatest virtue of a High Priestess is that she recognises that youth is necessary to the representative of the Goddess, so that she will retire gracefully in favour of a younger woman."
Gardner clearly intended for their to be a heavy influence on the God and Male clergy having positions of power with women subservient. To me this is a clear example of patriarchal theology and mirrors Catholicism. There is no need to one up me with a fancy meme when I clearly stated that I liked what Crowley had to say about the Goddess. Reading that changed my perception of him I never bothered to read what he says. They are still both very off putting for me and their works just aren't something I will ever be interested in.
I was talking about Gardner not Crowley when I said "from what I read was very patriarchal and that speaks of the times in which he lived." You left the name Gardner out of your quote. I'm assuming you overlooked his name in my sentence. To elaborate on Gardner here are some tidbits from The Old Laws or the Ardanes by Gerald Gardner, attributed to the New Forest Coven, 1957 "For the Gods love the Wica, as a man loveth a woman by mastering her." "For in this way only may man have communion with the Gods, for the Gods cannot help man without the help of men. "
"But the Priestess should ever mind that all power comes from him. It is only lent when it is used wisely and justly. And the greatest virtue of a High Priestess is that she recognises that youth is necessary to the representative of the Goddess, so that she will retire gracefully in favour of a younger woman."
Gardner clearly intended for their to be a heavy influence on the God and Male clergy having positions of power with Goddess and women subservient. To me this is a clear example of patriarchal theology and mirrors Catholicism. There is no need to one up me with a fancy meme when I clearly stated that I liked what Crowley had to say about the Goddess. Reading that changed my perception of him I never bothered to read what he says. They are still both very off putting for me and their works just aren't something I will ever be interested in.
Yeah, Gardner certainly was. I can't imagine he and Crowley were the greatest of friends.
Quote from: Witch of Hope on May 20, 2009, 07:27:32 PM
I am a Wicca, and I was transsexual. As a former member of the LDS church, and as a visitor of different services, I think of being able to permit to myself a judgment.
In most Christian churches transsexual people (or other TG) aren't seen with pleasure, and are patient at best ".
How, however, does it look to my religion which is a goddess's religion? Are transsexual people also condemned here? How was it in ancient times? And how does the goddess see tg people?
What do you mean?
I know the answer, but I would hear with pleasure your opinion in addition.
I know this is a bit of an older topic but I wanted to chime in. To me, it's simple. Nearly every Earth-based religion through history has had their "two-spirit" archetype that is often seen as holy. If given the science and medical means we have today back then, they would most likely have ended up transitioning.
The male/female balance in Wicca is important which is why many backwards-thinking Wiccans (etc) feel a transgender person is an "affront" to nature. I view it as exactly the opposite. Making that journey from a place you do not belong into a place you do is an allegory told many times throughout several goddess myths. I see the transition as a very divine one that is completing a person, bringing them back home to where they belong. Being born with the wrong equipment can be viewed as a test and suppressing it is more of an affront to the gods than expressing it.
If the goddess can transition and coexist with three selves and the god can simultaneously be his own father and child... I'm pretty sure it's okay for a person to transition. It seems perfectly in line.
Besides, my wife has always called me her "sexy man witch" but I know she thinks it's odd that I'm wearing a dude-suit. Hopefully, when I open up to her, she'll take that as a plus. ;D
Quote from: Abysha on January 11, 2015, 09:00:39 PM
Making that journey from a place you do not belong into a place you do is an allegory told many times throughout several goddess myths. I see the transition as a very divine one that is completing a person, bringing them back home to where they belong. Being born with the wrong equipment can be viewed as a test and suppressing it is more of an affront to the gods than expressing it.
If the goddess can transition and coexist with three selves and the god can simultaneously be his own father and child... I'm pretty sure it's okay for a person to transition. It seems perfectly in line.
I love this perspective, and it's one that I share. The Goddess has been suppressed for so long, and so she is returning, seeping in through the cracks. I wouldn't be surprised that a large majority of transgender people are in tune with ancient religion and esoteric philosophy.
I'm older, new to Susan's Place, and only out to myself for about six months. My spirituality is an important part of my life, so naturally how my gender situation relates to that is important as well. It's funny, but until I started reading the posts in this topic it never occurred to me that my experience of coming out to myself could have been much more difficult spiritually if it hadn't happened the way it did. My natural inclination would have been to have been very inhibited about "invading sacred womanspace." The Goddess led me here so gently.
I've embraced Paganism in some form or fashion since 1990. I consider myself Wiccan, although many people wouldn't; it was my first approach to giving some form to my Pagan spirituality, and my heart remains there. I think this is chiefly due to Scott Cunningham, to whom I will always be grateful. I think his book for the solitary practitioner is one of the best books ever published about this religion.
Despite the duotheism of Wicca, the God has never been an important part of my spiritual practice. I'm not sure why. I was a Christian for many years; but Christianity isn't particularly monotheistic ;) from my point of view. I do acknowledge him, but don't relate to him. The Goddess I know as Tana, who I first learned about in Raven Grimassi's book on Italian Witchcraft. She has been my goddess for about 20 years.
I've known since early adulthood that I was, as a woman I knew in college put it, "really in touch with my feminine side." A good friend in the Craft, who never breathed a hint of this to me when he was alive, told his wife in very emphatic terms that I was gay; she told me this after he died. And, when I was married, my wife and I would go for ritual to the house of a gay male couple, who once told me that I was the "gayest straight man" they had ever met; and they were very puzzled over it.
Prior to coming out to myself, I don't remember ever experiencing gender dysphoria as gender dysphoria. (I have experienced it since; it was terrifying.) I've since realized that it was there, and was extremely debilitating, but that it masqueraded as something else. However, that being said, about 10 years ago I had a very intense experience of gender euphoria, though I didn't know that's what it was at the time. It was about this time that I admitted to myself that I would rather have been born female. I shared most, if not all, of this with my wife; and, without consulting me, she shared it with one of her friends, a transman. He suggested to her that I might be transgender, and she relayed the suggestion to me. I laughed it off. Not me. No, not me.
About a year after my divorce, I decided I wanted to explore this feminine side of mine, with the idea that bringing it to the surface and integrating it with the rest of my personality would make me a more whole, more complete person. Naturally, with a project like this, I asked Tana for her help; and she spoke to me -- not audibly (she's never done that) but in my mind. She said, "Are you sure? Because once done, it can't be undone." This told me that the consequences would be significant; but I really didn't see how that changed anything. Becoming a more complete person is why we're here in the first place, and I couldn't turn away from that. So, I said Yes.
I think it was a day or two later that I had a very strange experience. I was walking from my bedroom to the living room when I experienced a sort of disorientation; I lost my balance, a little. It quickly passed; but it was so unusual that I wondered if it might have had a spiritual cause. There were no follow-up consequences, however, and I set it aside.
Over the next days and weeks, I started doing things that I associated with femininity, or that helped me disassociate from my masculinity. Along with that, I began looking on the internet for material in this area that might be of help to me. Although I ran into transgender material, I did not consider it to be a possibility for me; indeed, while I believed at the time that the phenomenon was real, I believed that transitioning was, in principle, the wrong answer. I believed that we incarnate as we do intentionally, and I couldn't see why someone would intentionally incarnate in the wrong body; therefore, changing it surgically must be missing the point somehow.
Well, you can guess what happened from there. It wasn't too long before I began asking myself if I were transgender myself; and, the longer this went on, the more I hoped that I was. I even reached the point where, despite my thoughts on transitioning, I decided that, if I did find out I was a woman, I was going all the way. :) I just couldn't not do it.
When I reached the tentative conclusion that I was trans, I found a gender therapist (on the "Psychology Today" website) and sent her an email inquiry. I know how we can rationalize ourselves into getting what we want, and I wanted an informed, objective opinion. She answered my email and scheduled an introductory phone call. I had no idea how long a phone call this would be. How do you convey an accurate picture of yourself and your experiences relevant to your issue, and do it briefly? I spent some time trying to prepare for this; and, on the morning of the phone call, I was sitting in the parking lot of a grocery store, rehearsing the synopsis I was going to give her, when I had an epiphany. I suddenly just knew. "I'm a woman," I said out loud. "I'm a woman." And the next thing I knew, my rational mind rebelled against this. "How can this be? How can this be?" It was completely incongruous; yet, I knew it was true.
I see the gentle hand of the Lady all over this. The process for me was so sweet, so gentle; so much could have gone wrong or been much more difficult for me.
I don't know why my life has been as it has been. I do believe that things happen for a reason, that there is purpose and design in at least the major courses of our lives. I can't imagine why I've lived most of my life thinking I was male, only half-alive with my true self buried. But I don't indulge in resentment, probably because I'm so full of joy now. My heart is so full.
I hope it's obvious that, despite the length of this post about my coming out to myself, it's really a post about her, about the Lady. Other than the fact of our relationship itself, this is the greatest gift she has ever given me, the gift of my true self. I can't imagine a greater one, or more loving.
Quote from: AnnMarie2017 on October 13, 2017, 02:32:04 AM
I'm older, new to Susan's Place, and only out to myself for about six months. My spirituality is an important part of my life, so naturally how my gender situation relates to that is important as well. It's funny, but until I started reading the posts in this topic it never occurred to me that my experience of coming out to myself could have been much more difficult spiritually if it hadn't happened the way it did. My natural inclination would have been to have been very inhibited about "invading sacred womanspace." The Goddess led me here so gently.
I've embraced Paganism in some form or fashion since 1990. I consider myself Wiccan, although many people wouldn't; it was my first approach to giving some form to my Pagan spirituality, and my heart remains there. I think this is chiefly due to Scott Cunningham, to whom I will always be grateful. I think his book for the solitary practitioner is one of the best books ever published about this religion.
Despite the duotheism of Wicca, the God has never been an important part of my spiritual practice. I'm not sure why. I was a Christian for many years; but Christianity isn't particularly monotheistic ;) from my point of view. I do acknowledge him, but don't relate to him. The Goddess I know as Tana, who I first learned about in Raven Grimassi's book on Italian Witchcraft. She has been my goddess for about 20 years.
I've known since early adulthood that I was, as a woman I knew in college put it, "really in touch with my feminine side." A good friend in the Craft, who never breathed a hint of this to me when he was alive, told his wife in very emphatic terms that I was gay; she told me this after he died. And, when I was married, my wife and I would go for ritual to the house of a gay male couple, who once told me that I was the "gayest straight man" they had ever met; and they were very puzzled over it.
Prior to coming out to myself, I don't remember ever experiencing gender dysphoria as gender dysphoria. (I have experienced it since; it was terrifying.) I've since realized that it was there, and was extremely debilitating, but that it masqueraded as something else. However, that being said, about 10 years ago I had a very intense experience of gender euphoria, though I didn't know that's what it was at the time. It was about this time that I admitted to myself that I would rather have been born female. I shared most, if not all, of this with my wife; and, without consulting me, she shared it with one of her friends, a transman. He suggested to her that I might be transgender, and she relayed the suggestion to me. I laughed it off. Not me. No, not me.
About a year after my divorce, I decided I wanted to explore this feminine side of mine, with the idea that bringing it to the surface and integrating it with the rest of my personality would make me a more whole, more complete person. Naturally, with a project like this, I asked Tana for her help; and she spoke to me -- not audibly (she's never done that) but in my mind. She said, "Are you sure? Because once done, it can't be undone." This told me that the consequences would be significant; but I really didn't see how that changed anything. Becoming a more complete person is why we're here in the first place, and I couldn't turn away from that. So, I said Yes.
I think it was a day or two later that I had a very strange experience. I was walking from my bedroom to the living room when I experienced a sort of disorientation; I lost my balance, a little. It quickly passed; but it was so unusual that I wondered if it might have had a spiritual cause. There were no follow-up consequences, however, and I set it aside.
Over the next days and weeks, I started doing things that I associated with femininity, or that helped me disassociate from my masculinity. Along with that, I began looking on the internet for material in this area that might be of help to me. Although I ran into transgender material, I did not consider it to be a possibility for me; indeed, while I believed at the time that the phenomenon was real, I believed that transitioning was, in principle, the wrong answer. I believed that we incarnate as we do intentionally, and I couldn't see why someone would intentionally incarnate in the wrong body; therefore, changing it surgically must be missing the point somehow.
Well, you can guess what happened from there. It wasn't too long before I began asking myself if I were transgender myself; and, the longer this went on, the more I hoped that I was. I even reached the point where, despite my thoughts on transitioning, I decided that, if I did find out I was a woman, I was going all the way. :) I just couldn't not do it.
When I reached the tentative conclusion that I was trans, I found a gender therapist (on the "Psychology Today" website) and sent her an email inquiry. I know how we can rationalize ourselves into getting what we want, and I wanted an informed, objective opinion. She answered my email and scheduled an introductory phone call. I had no idea how long a phone call this would be. How do you convey an accurate picture of yourself and your experiences relevant to your issue, and do it briefly? I spent some time trying to prepare for this; and, on the morning of the phone call, I was sitting in the parking lot of a grocery store, rehearsing the synopsis I was going to give her, when I had an epiphany. I suddenly just knew. "I'm a woman," I said out loud. "I'm a woman." And the next thing I knew, my rational mind rebelled against this. "How can this be? How can this be?" It was completely incongruous; yet, I knew it was true.
I see the gentle hand of the Lady all over this. The process for me was so sweet, so gentle; so much could have gone wrong or been much more difficult for me.
I don't know why my life has been as it has been. I do believe that things happen for a reason, that there is purpose and design in at least the major courses of our lives. I can't imagine why I've lived most of my life thinking I was male, only half-alive with my true self buried. But I don't indulge in resentment, probably because I'm so full of joy now. My heart is so full.
I hope it's obvious that, despite the length of this post about my coming out to myself, it's really a post about her, about the Lady. Other than the fact of our relationship itself, this is the greatest gift she has ever given me, the gift of my true self. I can't imagine a greater one, or more loving.
Good morning Ann Marie,
I readily identify with nearly everything that you've written in your post. My entire life has been a spiritual journey where I have asked many questions about our purpose on Earth and where I fit into that equation. In 1975 I read an article about Gerald Gardner in the "Village Voice" and I was immediately connected to Wicca. It wasn't easy to find books on the topic in a small town in Connecticut but I managed to find a few in a local used book store. I ended up straying from Wicca when I enlisted in the Navy but continued to explore spirituality with regarding to Christianity, Universal Unitarianism, Zen Buddhism, Taoism and Native American shamanism. I read Margo Adler's "Drawing Down the Moon" about the same time that I was coming to terms with my gender dysphoria. I've determined for me that being a transgender and Wiccan are not exclusive because they are very significant components of who I am. In that regard for me the god and goddess are also not mutually exclusive for they compliment one another in my spiritual universe. Perhaps this is my female psyche attempting to rationalize the fact that I was born in a man's body? Rather than fighting all that I attempt to embrace it.
Thanks again for your post and look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on this topic. As a side note, I believe that Scott Cunningham's "Wicca: A Guide For the Solitary Practitioner" is a superb book for anyone interested in our path.
Melissa
I know this is an old topic...
I've been wiccan since 2007.
Neo pagans that claim to be wiccan but adopt other dieties
From other pagan faiths can irritate me but i try to be open...
Afterall we have different experiences. <3
In traditional wicca you have a:
Trinity Goddess
Hunter God
But oddly enough you do have The One.
A promordial diety in a way.
The wiccan bilaws do not go against transexuality.
The wiccan bilaws dont even mention un natural things being evil.
Witch craft in its essence manipulates the natural world.
Medicine or Potions created through natural alchemy cure sicknesses,
But they are >created<
Just like hrt and many paths we choose it may be "un natural"
But like a priestess healing her flock it was derived from many natural things at some point.
The hunter god, The goddess, and the one also clearly represent how man and woman are separate
And yet one. Created from a "source" a "combination"
So no i do not believe transexuality conflicts with traditional wicca.
I do respect your opinion though and we could go on to debate the evolution
Of witchcraft, science, and more.
But much love and many joys upon you.
Blessed be.
So mote it be.
<3
Cincy