I recently saw the above film at the Auckland Queer Outtakes Film Festival and was... disappointed. Some of it was quite good, but alot of the time they just came off as whiny (well the couple of white guys were but the black dudes seemed more down to earth) -_- and ugh, when they went on about how horrible binding was and how painful and traumatising etc. etc. only to mention that (one particular person) they used three ace bandages all at once?! Why did no-one mention freaking proper binders?? I wear a t-kingdom and forget I'm wearing it, its that comfy.
That was one of the main things that stuck out to me, but overall, I just don't think their (the American) trans-experience translates well to the New Zealand one. Completely different mind-set and view of the world. We're generally a 'Stop whining and get on with it' mentality and these (though not all of) guys just came off as annoying and self-absorbed.
Hope I don't offend, just wondering if any of you guys had seen it and wondering your thoughts about it.
(I realise this isn't what every transguy in America is like!)
I actually haven't even heard of that till just now, but I do find that most of the shows and movies don't portray everything right. It's rather annoying. They probably wanted to show the world what it's like to be a trans without the proper things or something. Who knows, lol. Maybe if I get a chance to see it for free I'll watch it. Just out of curiosity.
I saw it the other day. I thought it was okay. The binding thing was pretty stupid though. Oh, and the kid with the blonde hair was just a whiny little douche. The others were okay though.
I think the other problem was that it was made from a lesbian perspective, which though was its purpose... it just wasn't how I saw being trans.
you can get it on youtube...i will watch it tonight....
Their American trans experience comes off as douchey to Americans as well.
The American experience (any of them, and there are lot) is not really exportable.
Quote from: Mister on June 08, 2009, 01:50:06 AM
Their American trans experience comes off as douchey to Americans as well.
lol XD
Quote from: milliontoone on June 08, 2009, 01:45:17 AM
you can get it on youtube...i will watch it tonight....
Link?!
Jay
I just watched it on youtube, thought it was ok, but the lesbian stuff annoyed me.
Quote from: Ghostguy on June 08, 2009, 11:13:27 AM
I just watched it on youtube, thought it was ok, but the lesbian stuff annoyed me.
I'm watching it right now and I have to agree.
I think it just pisses me off further.
i watched this...it was kind of douchey..... ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: milliontoone on June 12, 2009, 03:31:32 PM
i watched this...it was kind of douchey..... ;D ;D ;D
told you.
Just finished watching it. I thought it had its good points. It is very much from an academic, feminist perspective, which limits its appeal quite a bit. I just wish they had found someone besides that annoying young prat who apparently named the film. ::) The kid sure talked a lot, but didn't have much to say.
yeah and the whiney blonde ftm really irked me...it's like get over yourself already...
I agree with most of the comments here. I, too, found Keegan very annoying, and I just wanted him to shut up. Yap, yap, yap.
The binding sequences...sheesh, of course Ace bandages hurt. I wouldn't want viewers to get the wrong impression about binding, but I think they would from this documentary. That segment seemed pretty irresponsible. I was starting to get the impression that Keegan in particular really WANTED to suffer.
The lesbian perspective was understandable but also problematic. I do think that there's nothing wrong with the lesbian perspective as long as the filmmakers clarify their objectives--one of which was obviously to open up some kind of dialogue between lesbians and transmen. And I think the documentary should have noted much earlier (not in the last minute before the credits) that lots of transmen don't come from the lesbian world.
Overall, I'm glad I saw the film, and some good points were made. But it was a pretty ho-hum experience for me. At least I didn't blow four or five hours like I did with Transgeneration. For me, that doc was a REAL waste of time compared to the hour that I spent on Boy I Am (stupid title, I thought, but that's just me).
Quote from: Arch on June 14, 2009, 03:17:16 AM
The binding sequences...sheesh, of course Ace bandages hurt. I wouldn't want viewers to get the wrong impression about binding, but I think they would from this documentary. That segment seemed pretty irresponsible. I was starting to get the impression that Keegan in particular really WANTED to suffer.
I'm kind of surprised that they didn't use this to illustrate the point that was brought up about transitioning and class. Maybe none of these guys could afford a proper binder? Although they all managed to get together enough for surgery, so you'd think they could scrape up $40 for an Underworks. Or maybe Underworks and T-Kingdom weren't in business or as well known at the time Boy I Am was filmed. When was it? 2004, 2005? It seems more out of date than that. *shrugs*
It occurred to me as I watched the film, though, that the one FtM that I really couldn't stand or take seriously was also the one who wasn't on T. I had to ask myself if that played a role, subconsciously, in my reaction to him. Any thoughts on the subject?
Watched it.
It was okay. Didn't have any "big" problems with it.
Quote from: Jamie-o on June 14, 2009, 05:14:07 AM
It occurred to me as I watched the film, though, that the one FtM that I really couldn't stand or take seriously was also the one who wasn't on T. I had to ask myself if that played a role, subconsciously, in my reaction to him. Any thoughts on the subject?
Okay, I'll admit that one thing that irked me about Keegan was his pre-T voice--god, his VOICE sounded so whiny. Maybe he was lowering his voice as far as he could and that process got him into the zone that I hated so much. But then they interviewed him after T, and I found him just as annoying. And I listened to some of his pre-T interviews again and thought he was just, well, a little too emo. I didn't want him to be "representing" me on camera, even though (I have no doubt) I'm sure that at times I've come across as whiny myself while I go through my transition process. So I dunno.
But I don't think I was subconsciously discounting him just because he wasn't on T. I don't have a problem with guys who choose not to transition or guys who choose not to go on T or whatever--although it does annoy me when guys like that complain about being clocked for having feminine voices. (If you want the male voice, go on T, even if temporarily. If you choose not to, then accept that ordinary people will think you're a woman. Or be prepared to launch into your Trans 101 spiel every time it happens.) Anyway, one of my favorite people here in town is a guy who says he'll probably never transition; he identifies as genderqueer. I respect that.
Then again, I don't hear him whining very much!
At the beginning of the film, there is some line about how "everyone puts their gender on in the morning." This might be the biggest load of crap I've heard. I am the same gender, clothed or not.
Quote from: Arch on June 14, 2009, 02:08:59 PM
But I don't think I was subconsciously discounting him just because he wasn't on T.
I wasn't actually thinking in terms of prejudice against partial or non-transitioners, I was thinking more along the lines that we, as a society, more easily dismiss the ideas and concerns of women. Is it possible that, because he comes off as female for the majority of the documentary, that we subconsciously dismiss him as a whiny woman? I'm just throwing the idea out there for discussion, folks, so please don't take offense.
Quote from: Jamie-o on June 14, 2009, 05:24:28 PM
I wasn't actually thinking in terms of prejudice against partial or non-transitioners, I was thinking more along the lines that we, as a society, more easily dismiss the ideas and concerns of women. Is it possible that, because he comes off as female for the majority of the documentary, that we subconsciously dismiss him as a whiny woman? I'm just throwing the idea out there for discussion, folks, so please don't take offense.
I just dismissed him as whiny. Your transition is as hard as you make it. I have no patience for those who choose to make it harder than it needs to be.
Quote from: Mister on June 14, 2009, 05:27:17 PM
Your transition is as hard as you make it. I have no patience for those who choose to make it harder than it needs to be.
Well, I see that, but how can a person decide for someone else that he's making it harder than it needs to be? Was Keegan making it seem harder than it really was? That's how I read it, but maybe he was just having a tougher time than most guys. I dunno.
Quote from: Arch on June 14, 2009, 05:32:39 PM
Well, I see that, but how can a person decide for someone else that he's making it harder than it needs to be? Was Keegan making it seem harder than it really was? That's how I read it, but maybe he was just having a tougher time than most guys. I dunno.
While transition is an individual process, each transitioner is hardly reinventing it.
Yeah, Keegan was the one that really bothered me. It was his voice and perhaps how his eyes themselves always looked swollen like he was going to cry but was just how they were.
I'm going to agree with Mister that transition is as hard as you make it mentally. There are some things that make us cave, but we all have our coping methods and some people do make it harder and hold onto this victimized label. Not dismissing dysphoria or the times we do fall apart, because it happens to everyone. We can, though, at least lift our spirits some.
But third parties? Nah, there's no way I'm in control of that.
QuoteBut third parties? Nah, there's no way I'm in control of that.
You aren't in control of them, but you can very easily influence them.
Quote from: Mister on June 14, 2009, 07:13:46 PM
You aren't in control of them, but you can very easily influence them.
Oh, we can influence. It's just that influencing is usually for the greater good of people in the long term and doesn't do much for my situation 'now'. I can't help the lack of doctors, a problem that has been present in my country for many years now, that we are still trying to solve. But influencing family and friends? Yes, that's much more plausible and reasonable.
That sort of thing though, no matter how dire, is still too dependent on that other party.
True, but those other parties are rarely necessary. If people can't/won't get it, they're probably not worth it. Cut your losses, quit complaining and get on with your life.
Back to the movie, that I just watched a few minutes of... It wholly concentrates on a very middle class educated white perspective of feminism, as if Catherine Opie and Judith Halberstam weren't a tip off.
Quote from: Mister on June 14, 2009, 07:43:14 PM
True, but those other parties are rarely necessary. If people can't/won't get it, they're probably not worth it. Cut your losses, quit complaining and get on with your life.
Back to the movie, that I just watched a few minutes of... It wholly concentrates on a very middle class educated white perspective of feminism, as if Catherine Opie and Judith Halberstam weren't a tip off.
Agreed. Whining continuously never got anyone anywhere in life. I understand venting every now and then, but if you're not going to look for ways or find the initiative to gain them, you probably don't think it's worth it yourself.
Well, I think the entire movie itself was just a really narrow insight into feminism and ->-bleeped-<-. They covered white feminism and butch lesbians which are hardly an insight in lesbians or feminism but a small portion. Then they only cover FTMs when feminism and butch is not exclusive to female born persons. I mean, what about MTFs and feminism? The documentary got turned into feminist lesbian vs transmen and I thought it did worse for unity and understanding than anything else.
Dang it, why are we continuing this sort of segregation? I think that's what bothers me about documentaries like this.
Quote from: Monty on June 14, 2009, 07:58:11 PM
Agreed. Whining continuously never got anyone anywhere in life. I understand venting every now and then, but if you're not going to look for ways or find the initiative to gain them, you probably don't think it's worth it yourself.
Well, I think the entire movie itself was just a really narrow insight into feminism and ->-bleeped-<-. They covered white feminism and butch lesbians which are hardly an insight in lesbians or feminism but a small portion. Then they only cover FTMs when feminism and butch is not exclusive to female born persons. I mean, what about MTFs and feminism? The documentary got turned into feminist lesbian vs transmen and I thought it did worse for unity and understanding than anything else.
Dang it, why are we continuing this sort of segregation? I think that's what bothers me about documentaries like this.
Because it's the classic oppressed becoming oppressor thing. There is more pressure put on FTMs by feminists and esp feminist lesbians to not change who they are, their value system, etc than I think most people outside that dynamic can fathom. My personal view is that feminists try to get FTMs to retain a feeling of oppression so they don't desert the movement.
Not only does this documentary not cover MTFs (which, with a title like 'boy i am' i wouldn't expect it to), but it also doesn't discuss transmen who do not come from the lesbian community.
A long time ago, I found myself very interested in the work of the gender theorists-- halberstam, foucault, etc... but now i realize they're entirely full of it.
Quote from: Mister on June 14, 2009, 08:05:58 PMNot only does this documentary not cover MTFs (which, with a title like 'boy i am' i wouldn't expect it to), but it also doesn't discuss transmen who do not come from the lesbian community.
They only touched on it briefly on the end and it was more of a, "Not all transmen come from the lesbian community but most of them do." kind of thing. But last time I checked, even though I've always been attracted to women, I never subscribed to being 'lesbian' in the first place. They might just be assuming that people like me were apart of the community prior just out of technicality. A lot of straight FTMs were apart of the lesbian community, but a lot of them didn't because they didn't feel it fit the description.
I do think some feminists want FTMs to retain a feeling of oppression so they don't desert the movement, but honestly another thing that bothered me about this documentary is the feeling that TS individuals are not oppressed? How is it even any easy way out? I just don't get how it can be considered this.
Quote from: Monty on June 14, 2009, 08:50:01 PM
They only touched on it briefly on the end and it was more of a, "Not all transmen come from the lesbian community but most of them do." kind of thing. But last time I checked, even though I've always been attracted to women, I never subscribed to being 'lesbian' in the first place. They might just be assuming that people like me were apart of the community prior just out of technicality. A lot of straight FTMs were apart of the lesbian community, but a lot of them didn't because they didn't feel it fit the description.
I do think some feminists want FTMs to retain a feeling of oppression so they don't desert the movement, but honestly another thing that bothered me about this documentary is the feeling that TS individuals are not oppressed? How is it even any easy way out? I just don't get how it can be considered this.
Well, from their perspective FTMs pass as men and then receive male privilege and most certainly not oppressed.
Quote from: Mister on June 14, 2009, 09:02:22 PM
Well, from their perspective FTMs pass as men and then receive male privilege and most certainly not oppressed.
Yeah, and it's such a copout to go that route...and it's so easy...and nobody who does it really actually IDENTIFIES as male...we're just looking for the easy way out.
What a crock of...oh, don't get me started.
I had an acquaintance not too long ago who was trying to give me alternatives to T--I could pump iron, I could do some vocal training, stuff like that--but who clearly didn't get that I identify as MALE, not as masculine. And that not being male has messed with me for my entire life. And that transition was the only sane choice to make. So I made it. Not so that I could escape sexism and gain male privilege but so that I could be ME.
Urgh.
Quote from: Arch on June 14, 2009, 10:10:45 PM
Yeah, and it's such a copout to go that route...and it's so easy...and nobody who does it really actually IDENTIFIES as male...we're just looking for the easy way out.
What a crock of...oh, don't get me started.
I had an acquaintance not too long ago who was trying to give me alternatives to T--I could pump iron, I could do some vocal training, stuff like that--but who clearly didn't get that I identify as MALE, not as masculine. And that not being male has messed with me for my entire life. And that transition was the only sane choice to make. So I made it. Not so that I could escape sexism and gain male privilege but so that I could be ME.
Urgh.
I couldn't have said it any better myself.
In one word - Agreed :)
I nod to this thread.
I've been to a few FTM meets over the last few months, and I'd say that although pre-T status can cause a small social disparity, 99% of it really comes down to the guy. If you act like a whiny little attention seeking emo boy, you aren't going to be taken seriously - pre or post T. I've seen guys who have been on T for 20 years be socially dismissed, and some pre T guys be welcomed as one of the crew.
Male, Female or in between - nobody likes a whinger!
Ha ha ha.... Feminists hate us :laugh: We are traitors! Scum! Betraying "The Cause" (whatever "The Cause" may be... I don't know what on Earth they're fighting for - anyone here ever privvy to it?).
So... they make a documentery about us, and choose to represent us with some whiny little s***. It's propaganda from one group discrediting another group. Welcome to politics.
Pfft... I want to make my own documentary now. With Blackjack. And Hookers. And Aaron Devor.
Quote from: Teknoir on June 15, 2009, 12:59:45 AM
Betraying "The Cause" (whatever "The Cause" may be... I don't know what on Earth they're fighting for - anyone here ever privvy to it?).
While I agree that the feminist cause has largely become whiny and overly academic in today's world, I am very,
very glad it happened before I was born. You consider, when my mom was in college (mid-60's) women were
required to wear dresses. Women had a 9:00 curfew at the dorm. Men had no curfew. Stanford University had a quota on women. Only 10% of their student population was allowed to be female, after which guys with lesser qualifications were accepted instead. Employers openly said things like, "We're not going to waste this promotion on some woman who will just end up getting married and leaving the work force."
If I had had to live in a female body in that world, I would probably have offed myself by now. As annoying as the movement is today, we all have a hell of a lot to be grateful for when it comes to the original feminist movement.
I was being tounge in cheek. Well, trying to :laugh:.
I do agree they had a lot to fight for back then - and so they should have. The oldschool feminist equal rights movement WAS a good thing... it's just that it's been corrupted into an oppressive man hating diatribe.
I still have no idea what their "current" cause is though!
QuoteWomen had a 9:00 curfew at the dorm.
Hate to say it, but if this were still the case, we wouldn't have so many of these college girls getting murdered on campus. Don't think that was as much a 'rights' thing as a safety thing. I agree with the rest of what you're getting at though.
Someone responded to my icelandic blog at one point and said transsexuals were "silly".
I was a little reminded of that actually. I know it's not what was intended, but I was still reminded.
You know, cause we go through hormonal treatments, self injections, emotional rollercoasters, prejudice, surgery, risking rejection from friends, family, lovers, etc, etc, etc.. for fun...
*sigh*
Quote from: Jamie-o on June 14, 2009, 05:24:28 PM
I wasn't actually thinking in terms of prejudice against partial or non-transitioners, I was thinking more along the lines that we, as a society, more easily dismiss the ideas and concerns of women. Is it possible that, because he comes off as female for the majority of the documentary, that we subconsciously dismiss him as a whiny woman? I'm just throwing the idea out there for discussion, folks, so please don't take offense.
Uh, for me, again no. Sorry I misunderstood. Here's the thing--the documentary was about GUYS. So although I thought that Keegan was a whiny little wuss, I took his gender identification as it was given to me. He didn't come across as female because I accepted his professed gender. I didn't even think of him as if he were female--for me, he was more like a self-absorbed, uber-emo fourteen-year-old boy. So if anything, I was being ageist, not sexist. Interesting question, though. It never occurred to me that this was what you meant.
Post Merge: June 15, 2009, 11:50:35 AM
Quote from: Jamie-o on June 15, 2009, 05:31:17 AM
we all have a hell of a lot to be grateful for when it comes to the original feminist movement.
What, you mean the gals in the nineteenth century? >:-)
Quote from: Nero on June 15, 2009, 07:10:11 AM
Hate to say it, but if this were still the case, we wouldn't have so many of these college girls getting murdered on campus. Don't think that was as much a 'rights' thing as a safety thing. I agree with the rest of what you're getting at though.
So why not give men the curfew, since they perform 90% of violent crime? Yes I realize that wouldn't work, since not all the crime is being committed by college students. My point is that women had restrictions put on them that men didn't. And it was taken to ridiculous extremes. One of my Aunt's roommates was a nurse, working her way through college. She was constantly being punished for missing curfew, even though she was at
work.
Quote from: Arch on June 15, 2009, 11:47:00 AM
What, you mean the gals in the nineteenth century? >:-)
Yes, them too. And the ones at the beginning of the 20th who got women the vote. We've come a very long way as a society in the last hundred years or so. And we've advanced by leaps and bounds in the lat 50. Still a ways to go, though.
Technoir - That's the problem with the written word. No facial or vocal cues. :D And I agree, what started as a necessary thing has morphed into something pretty negative and petty. You can't expect equality when you're also preaching hate. More flies with honey, and all that. :)
I just watched the first ten minutes and then got really pissed at the whole "don't forget those who paved the way" thing. There really is a huge disconnect between the actual experience of being dysphoric and what many feminists seem to think the motives of transmen are. It makes me feel like there will never be able to be a proper dialogue about the issue, because it's so hard for non-trans people to understand what it's like to be trans. I don't want to transition because I've "given up trying to be a woman," or because I don't care about the strides that feminists have made. Neither of those things should apply to me. I was never a woman to begin with, and my transition is not a rejection of the efforts of feminists.
Ugh. Anyway, on a lighter note, Nicco was super cute.
Quote from: gravitysrainbow on June 15, 2009, 06:49:10 PM
There really is a huge disconnect between the actual experience of being dysphoric and what many feminists seem to think the motives of transmen are. It makes me feel like there will never be able to be a proper dialogue about the issue, because it's so hard for non-trans people to understand what it's like to be trans. I don't want to transition because I've "given up trying to be a woman," or because I don't care about the strides that feminists have made. Neither of those things should apply to me. I was never a woman to begin with, and my transition is not a rejection of the efforts of feminists.
Agreed. I've heard a few feminists saying that we go through transistion
just because we want "male privilege", completely discounting the experience of being in the wrong body. I just find that perspective so exasperating sometimes...
Quote from: Dominick on June 15, 2009, 06:58:47 PM
Agreed. I've heard a few feminists saying that we go through transistion just because we want "male privilege", completely discounting the experience of being in the wrong body. I just find that perspective so exasperating sometimes...
Yeah. I'll admit that male privilege exists, but it's never crossed my mind as a motive for transition. Also, I'm a pretty feminine guy, and I'm gay, so I won't necessarily be receiving it anyway. Or at least not nearly as much as some feminists would argue.
Quote from: gravitysrainbow on June 15, 2009, 07:16:47 PM
Yeah. I'll admit that male privilege exists, but it's never crossed my mind as a motive for transition. Also, I'm a pretty feminine guy, and I'm gay, so I won't necessarily be receiving it anyway. Or at least not nearly as much as some feminists would argue.
Not to mention that (from my observations, anyway) a large portion of male privilege consists of what the male demands and expects. A lot of transguys
receive a certain degree of male privilege but don't take advantage of all they could because they weren't raised as boys/men and don't insist on
taking all that they can.
I agree with you guys, but in all fairness, if you watch to the end, most of the women making those statements admit that while that was their initial reaction, as their partners transitioned they came to realize that it wasn't what they thought.
Quote from: Jamie-o on June 16, 2009, 04:29:41 AM
I agree with you guys, but in all fairness, if you watch to the end, most of the women making those statements admit that while that was their initial reaction, as their partners transitioned they came to realize that it wasn't what they thought.
I don't think we were referring to the partners of the ftms. I wasn't, anyway.
Quote from: gravitysrainbow on June 15, 2009, 06:49:10 PM
Ugh. Anyway, on a lighter note, Nicco was super cute.
Yeah :D
I mean.... I liked how the film featured him, cause I saw his webpage and he looked great.
The feminist thing was kinda a turnoff but I learned a little about lesbians and radical feminism. I'm curious though how the butch lesbians, especially Carmen the "male identified woman" or w/e make it in this world of hate. I imagine she must get a lot of crap from people. Oh and Southern Comfort has to be the best ftm docu I've seen. Either that or the one about the Danny guy, I can't remember the name of it tho.