Hi All
A few posts have opened up bullying at the workplace and maybe in general.
I know that many work places have tight rules against it, but do they work?
I was very feminine at school, OK I'm 55 so don't remember too much of the bad stuff. I was ignored rather than bullied. One guy came out as Gay, offered a BJ to someone. He was removed straight away. I so remember that.
I'm a senior manager and I don't tolerate bullying at all; over anything. Then again is anyone suprised :laugh:
I'm interested in the general comments.
I'm not even sure how to define bullying in the TG area. Any ideas? I'm even not sure what sexual harassment is as far as TGs are concerned.
Have said that in South Australia there are very strict rules that are enforced on the TG side. I am grateful for them. Any Govnt employee who is TG or TS ( never did know the difference) HAS to have an appropriate toilet available, cannot be sacked or whatever, can use the clothing of its sexual identity, as appropriate. Any one having a problem from the none TG side can have and is encouraged to have counseling, because they may be dismissed otherwise.
Any Opinions or Experiences?
From both sides.
How do you handle a TG in you're work area.
Personally No Problem
Love
Cindy
Wow. It's great that Australia has so many protections for TG people. Only a few companies here in the US offer anything like that, and I'm not sure how well those are enforced. It's hard enough to enforce sexual harrassment policies for all women. It seems every woman I've ever spoken to has been harassed at some point in her career, and those who have spoken up against it (many don't) have never had a favorable outcome.
Just before Hypatia came out at work, when it was obvious to everyone that "something" was going on with her, there was a group of guys from another country who said they wanted to "do" her. These guys are generally sleazy toward all women in our office though.
When she came out, the boss made it clear that any harassment would not be tolerated. Things were said behind her back, but it mostly seemed to be women who were concerned about sharing the bathroom with her.
We never got to find out if it would have gotten better because a mere month later, she lost her job. Coincidence? Hmmm.
In the military, I was taught that harassment is defined as "any comments or physical contact by someone that makes you uncomfortable or offended." Therefore, sexual harassment would be the same thing, only of a sexual nature (asking for 'favors' or touching you inappropriately). I never found that any definition of sexual harassment has specified anything physical about the people, just what their perspective is. Hope this helps ;).
Since I started presenting as male in the workplace, a few of the guys try to start fights with me. I'm still not sure if they're trying to "make me a man" or if they're just being mean. They tend to do it more when I'm down in the dumps, so maybe they're just trying to include me in their fun. I usally just tell myself that they're letting me in as a guy. Plus our manager always tells me that I can punch 'em back, so, I'm pretty sure that's their way of letting me "belong" in their group.
I don't have any experiences, but when I worked at Borders, harassment was extremely broad. If a woman was putting books away and a guy left a book about sex on top of her stack, that was sexual harassment. :-\ I think it would be a lot more difficult for a man to complain about sexual harassment and be taken seriously, but generally, that's the way it looks in all the videos/hr discussions I've ever seen. It's always a man sexually harassing a woman.
Quote from: Jaimey on June 25, 2009, 06:15:46 PM
I don't have any experiences, but when I worked at Borders, harassment was extremely broad. If a woman was putting books away and a guy left a book about sex on top of her stack, that was sexual harassment. :-\ I think it would be a lot more difficult for a man to complain about sexual harassment and be taken seriously, but generally, that's the way it looks in all the videos/hr discussions I've ever seen. It's always a man sexually harassing a woman.
Not really, I was written up at work for this very kind of thing, over a silly card. And he still will not even look at me.
Janet
Quote from: Janet Lynn on June 25, 2009, 06:44:40 PM
Not really, I was written up at work for this very kind of thing, over a silly card. And he still will not even look at me.
Janet
Hmm. But I would say that since you transitioned at work (I did read that correctly, right?), that he was given more validity since you are trans. I guess to be a little un-pc (with my apologies), for cisgendered men filing against cisgendered women, that would be the case. If you're trans, I have a feeling it would be a lot easier to file (and accept) harassment against you...at least for the transphobic.
Work takes any report of harassment very seriously. And while I will agree that my being trans has a lot to do with it, it is silly because it was over a card. All he had to do was say "not interested", but he made a big production over it.
And yes I agree that when a bio man makes a report against a bio woman, it is not looked at as seriously.
Janet
Had a case at work when an older bio women (late 20's) left suggestive, but every day girly stuff, for one of the very young guys to see. He was in his late teens, unconfident and a great blusher. It was a total set up, she was completely let off. A fun joke. Bet if it was the other way around it would be regarded as a fun joke. >:(
CIndy
I've been harassed by several women, at several workplaces.
When trying to file a claim, all I got were raised eyebrows, and an astonished person asking why I didn't act upon it and 'nail' her. *sighs*
That, or, at one time, the manager was a woman, and grinned. :-\
(I'm kind of born male.)
I work in the last industry in America where 'harass' is still two words. (think about it). People can and will say anything to you, you can say anything back, if it not a sexual innuendo or bringing up a personal shortcoming (bald, fat) then its not worth saying. Somehow we survive, if not thrive. You just have to be willing to give as well as you get, and own your own life. I guess its not a good place for people who are 'sensitive' or overly invested in themselves, but, in fact, we kind of like it. I asked one of the women I work with how she put up with it and she gave me that 'Pishaw' wave of the hand and said, "I have 9 brothers." I'm not sure at what point everyone should have to bend to the lowest, most hyper-sensitive common denominator at any rate.
The last time I was a victim of bullying would be at age 15. That stopped when I fought back. Make it clear "I don't get pissed off. I get even!" Once a Navy gal exposed me to sexual harrassment. She had me alone in the cheifs office and dropped her pants, bent over and showed her tan line. Not a very pretty scene. As the old saying goes "two ax handles wide". Men do not get sexually harrassed, got it! Vanessapink commented on sexual harrassment in the military. They do not take it lightly. Fact: It is harrassment to look for too long. e.g. If a person is talking to an attractive lady with great cleavage do not view said cleavage for more than ten seconds or it is sexual harrassment. I know and found out the hard way. It wasn't cleavage, she had a nice bummy. The lady ,Evelyn White, didn't care but an M.P. turned me in. Had to go to counseling about counting to ten. LOL
Tekla,
It's not the sensitivity, it's the penalty. A case has just closed in Adelaide about a female employee saleswomen saying she was harrassed at work. She was awarded about $800,000 plus costs. The company, Higginbottom homes- if you would believe :laugh:, have said they will not pay, the two employees will have to find the money themselves. From the little I read, there was no physical contact it was all innuendo.
Cindy
Well, what I think - in a very real reality - a lot of people don't get is you avoid the penalty by avoiding the worker. If I said "well Cindy will be working here tomorrow and we'll all have to watch ourselves" someone is almost bound to say, "Then make sure Cindy isn't here." I think at the top in a lot of places its still very much that way. I spent the last couple of days setting up and line checking a very famous local band who is about to go off and play some festival in Michigan. It cost them say $3K for this little exercise, but you have to know all the stuff you're sending to Michigan will work when its unpacked. But its a pretty brutal interpersonal environment. And for all the people who would have done it for less money, or even for free, hell, they have fans who I'm sure would have PAID just to touch that stuff - not to mention play with it a bit - they drag in the old guard not just because we know the routine and the set up, but because we can work in that atmosphere without having problems with it. I mean, really. No one ever got hurt because of an innuendo. Really.
I understand, and even abide by, the PC stuff where it matters, like at a university - and I try not to say "What in the hell is going on here" in the middle of church like my ex did - and all that. But, on the other hand I worked for a company that sent me to sites where they were building a city in Saudi Arabia, the top of a mountain in New Guinna, and some other place I can't even say were they were - because, at least in part - I could handle being on a construction site and dealing with construction workers (who are pretty much the same guys the world round). At some base point there were sending me there to straighten out the records and documents, not to come home with a lawsuit, and people do think about those things. And people do notice and keep track of that stuff. It will never be in your record, no one is ever going to make a note of it so you're never going to be able to sue, but you will not get the good assignments, not get the promotion, because people think you are too sensitive and are going to be a problem. And they don't want a problem, they want someone who can do the work.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I didn't get to where I am by being precious. I'm at the top of my game and people know it. I don't get invited to talk at international conferences 'cos my name came up at random.
What I am saying is the pc laws are in ( at least here) and they are being enforced to a very tight degree, but, they still seem lopsided. A gal can sue but the guy is told to deal with it. That's not good law (either way in my opinion).
And you can get in a mess very easily. I've had the female student whose hearing was so sensitive she could hear peoples thoughts, and of course they were all calling her a prostitute. I had to go before a grievence committee for that one. They accepted my explanations and there was no penalty BUT the fruit cake wasn't dismissed. I still had to teach her. She of course was playing a game, she was a failure and I wanted to dismiss her; but she wanted to stay in Australia until her son had finished school and then she went back to her home country.
Cindy
Quote from: Janet Lynn on June 25, 2009, 07:24:23 PMAnd yes I agree that when a bio man makes a report against a bio woman, it is not looked at as seriously.
Janet
Heh, yeah.
If only more people had read/seen Disclosure. . .