Hi everyone,
I am dealing with another transitional issue in my journey and once again I am turning to Susan's Place for help.
Although I considered myself to be a woman, I play the part of a trans-woman when around genetic men and women. I don't wear a "I am a MtF transsexual" sign around my neck but if the conversation goes past the small talk stage and we are starting to get to know one another, I am not shy about telling them I am going through transition. I am also an activist of sorts as I frequently give talks and conduct mini-seminars for groups and businesses about transgender awareness issues which I find personally rewarding.
The problem is, I feel very safe being a trans-woman. I enjoy people being interested in meeting me and love to see their faces light up because they are curious and want to get to know me better. I know doing so helps "our cause" and also it may possibly help ease the pain for the next transgender person they meet. I also have to admit, it also does wonders for my ego.
But that it is not what I want.
I decided to test some new waters and I joined a women's circle. The circle consists of 12 or so women who gather twice a month to talk about their lives, their husbands, whatever. I seem to be accepted there as a woman (but of course I could be fooling myself on that.) Regardless, being there and participating in the discussion as a woman is simply wonderful. However, unlike when I am playing the trans-woman part, I am so out of my comfort zone.
Dazed and confused,
Dora
Well that's easy, you're out of your comfort zone because your not the center of attention and the group, as a group, is more important. There is a pronounced tendency for women to live by consensus, which is pretty much the direct opposite of getting all educating on people and hitting them with a mini-seminar and all. It's about a shared sharing, and a sacred space that exists where everyone is feeling rather than listening or lecturing. There is no 'right' and 'wrong', no 'point', no 'cause' because those things just get in the way. It's about being human together, not being a 'leader' or the focus. To get there you must first submit to trust to not being in charge.
Well, this may not mean much from a person who's only considering joining the rest of you, but... You're probably desiring to be seen as a real woman and not as a man who's changing into what they wish to be. In my opinion, that's a tad normal for any transwoman to want. After all, the surgeries, HRT, etc, are all there to help make transsexuals appear as a certain gender.
That being said, it's up to you and your courage, desire, and will to change yourself mentally into a woman. I'm sure being part of a woman's discussion circle will eventually make you feel just as/more safe than you are in the "Transwoman" mindset.
Quote from: tekla on June 27, 2009, 12:36:58 PM
Well that's easy, you're out of your comfort zone because your not the center of attention and the group, as a group, is more important. There is a pronounced tendency for women to live by consensus, which is pretty much the direct opposite of getting all educating on people and hitting them with a mini-seminar and all. It's about a shared sharing, and a sacred space that exists where everyone is feeling rather than listening or lecturing. There is no 'right' and 'wrong', no 'point', no 'cause' because those things just get in the way. It's about being human together, not being a 'leader' or the focus. To get there you must first submit to trust to not being in charge.
That, Kat, is perhaps the most brilliant thing I have read from you yet -- and not nearly the first. Absolutely great analysis and to boot it seems spot-on.
Nichole
If you are in a group of women and they gender you as genetic female they will talk openly and freely the way women talk, "their lives, husbands, whatever". They have a history of being female and no memories of ever being male. Therefore they sometimes will talk about things only genetic women experience, like childbirth, periods and such. If you are silent on those subjects, that would be unusual for a woman and could bring a raised eyebrow or two from the other women. This could be the reason you are out of your comfort zone. And there might also be a fear of being outed.
When you are open about being trans you can talk freely about your past without being cautious or fearful you will out yourself.
My two cents...
Julie
One of the most difficult things for trans-women to "get," imo, is exactly what tekla said: the ambience of conversation. Not all women talk about child-birth, nor do they talk always about periods or other aspects that will make you "different."
Many of them, more than most trans-women are aware of, haven't periods or have very irregular periods and/or are unable to conceive children as well.
But the tenor of the conversation, the ease that things move through many more levels and categories, sometimes simultaneously seem to place trans-women who often have had either very little interaction with other women or have had typical male interactions with other women at not simply a disadvantage but at a loss of how to move through those conversations.
Suddenly there is, as Kat said, no expert opinion, no rote or accepted way of doing things that is available to her, or to them. And yes, at that point one may well focus more on her sense of "how do I go about this" or "are they gonna know" and lose whatever confidence she has built into herself for conversation.
In other words, her conversation, her internal conversation, reverts back to "what will I say" and makes the center of her internal conversation "me." That can happen as well with non-trans-women in some instances: where the topic will become, quite naturally and unforeseen, about something that she has a personal, a very personal, stake in and that she doesn't share with those others.
The major difference I have found is that the trans-woman will often show her alienation from the conversation, become more withdrawn, less confident. The non-trans-woman will often begin to talk about how she doesn't fit in with the others and in doing so will be able to allow the others to include her experience and/or sorrow into the conversation.
But, the "center" will quickly become normalized back to the group as others will begin to normalize the experience of the "outsider." Trans-women generally have no experience of that in their conversational backgrounds and will, possibly, believe that they must recount their experience or make-up one. When short and shallow remarks are probably more indicated by the context.
The trans-woman will often guide the conversation to an area where she is comfortable.
That is the infamous "taking up space" that many of us have read or experienced with men.
One of the reasons I would almost always suggest that trans-women find and become a part of the company of other women rather than the company of other trans-women while transitioning. To learn, we need teachers, not those who imagine we know what we do not, but those who do know.
Listening and hearing become very important prior to and during transition. And that is generally a position most male-raised people do not grok very well: for the priority in male conversation is very often a matter of "establishing authority" (not control per se, but the establishment of a kind of credential for making one's point, an expertise.)
I find that usually many degrees down the conversational importance scale in conversations among women.
Cultural & social? Prolly so. But still, even for that, quite important to discover and incorporate.
Now, the one thing we are leaving out here, Dora, is why do you think you become less comfortable? Is it what we have said or is it that you find yourself "passing" and feeling more uncomfortable with that aspect of your life than you might have imagined you would? I'm thinking it's time to normalize the conversation and get you included rather than get you "taught." :laugh: :icon_hug:
Nichole
Thank you, Kat. I need to process what you wrote -- it does make sense and it is appreciated.
Quote from: Julie Marie on June 27, 2009, 02:57:22 PM
They have a history of being female and no memories of ever being male. Therefore they sometimes will talk about things only genetic women experience, like childbirth, periods and such. If you are silent on those subjects, that would be unusual for a woman and could bring a raised eyebrow or two from the other women.
This could be the reason you are out of your comfort zone. And there might also be a fear of being outed.
When you are open about being trans you can talk freely about your past without being cautious or fearful you will out yourself. Julie
Exactly, Julie. There has been talk about menopause but it has mostly been about their children leaving home, and about the fear they are feeling over the changes going in their life due to age. (We are all 50+.) My biggest fear here is maybe I do not think or talk like a woman, and I am doomed to outing myself before I have a chance to try to learn and adapt. I have pretty much isolated most of my life and I am uncomfortable hanging out with either men or women so circulating with people now is a new experience for me. I am now much more comfortable with women then with men though.
So unlike when I am in trans-woman mode, I mostly listen and I'm careful with the words I use and when to speak. I've been full-time for only a few months so maybe I am going too fast here and I should back off. Then again, I consider myself to be woman, not a trans-woman and that is the direction I should be heading.
Post Merge: June 27, 2009, 04:54:13 PM
Quote from: Nichole on June 27, 2009, 03:57:29 PM
Now, the one thing we are leaving out here, Dora, is why do you think you become less comfortable? Is it what we have said or is it that you find yourself "passing" and feeling more uncomfortable with that aspect of your life than you might have imagined you would? I'm thinking it's time to normalize the conversation and get you included rather than get you "taught." :laugh: :icon_hug:
Nichole
I have no doubts in continuing on this path, but if I thought getting through the physical side of transition (e.g. fashion, makeup, voice etc.) is/was difficult, it wasn't until I joined the women's circle that it really hit home that the the "ambiance of conversation" may be even a larger mountain to climb.
Thank you for your post. It made it all that much easier to understand.
Quote from: Nichole on June 27, 2009, 03:57:29 PM
One of the reasons I would almost always suggest that trans-women find and become a part of the company of other women rather than the company of other trans-women while transitioning. To learn, we need teachers, not those who imagine we know what we do not, but those who do know.
My current job is nothing at all related to my education or previous experience, but has served me so very well in my transition...
I am in commission sales, and my bread and butter depends on my ability to connect to people, share experiences, gain trust, and interact as a genetic woman. Most of my customers are women, and I have been immersed in female culture. I love it. In the beginning, I soaked it up like a long needed essential nutrient, and now, after a few years, I just AM a woman. My mind was always female, but now it's socialized through several years of sharing experiences, working elbow to elbow, and thousands of hugs later, I'm a woman.
Yes we talk about periods, but not as often as you might think. And yes, we expect a commonality about the experience of giving birth. When they learn that my partner was the birth mother of our children, all is well, and only once did someone ask about the father. We talk, and cross talk, and move through subjects like a hockey puck on an ice rink while the husbands sigh, wait patiently, or go off to find more male activities.
Nichole is right.....you should keep the company of other women as much as you can. Also, I fine-tuned my female voice by talking to other women.....not by continuing listening to my voice tapes. They got me started, but talking to lots of women finished my "training".
Immersing yourself in the culture of women's world is like living in another country for years, and absorbing the culture around you so much so, that before much longer, you consider yourself a native.