Before you answer that think of how MJ went from a black boy to pretty much a white woman in his appearance. He idolized Diana Ross and was enamored with Liz Taylor. I remember reading he said he wanted to look like Diana Ross.
Look at everything about him, his dress, his presentation and all the plastic surgeries that resulted in a very feminine face.
And when you think about how so many of us are miserable and lonely until we transition and consider the fact he said he was a very lonely person (unhappy?) it makes me wonder if he was trans.
Could his life have been happier if he transitioned? No one seems to want to touch this but when you look at all he did it makes sense. I know the media and fans alike just chalked it up to weird but wasn't he really androgynous in his appearance? In this society, if we can't gender you, you are weird.
I'm only looking at his presentation and not at his child infatuation issues. That's a whole other issue.
Julie
MJ was diagnosed in the 80's with vitiligo, a chronic disorder where the individual looses the pigmentation in their skin, and the treatments he used further lightened his skin, hence why he went from black to white. He was also believed to have body dysmorphic disorder, in which he wasn't sure what gender others perceived him to be.
As for the "child infatuation issues," he was not a child molester. During his 2005 trial, a psychologist reviewed him and concluded that Michael had regressed to the mindset of a 10-year old child. This is perhaps why he was "lonely" and unhappy; he was also abused as a child by his father. That experience is probably why people thought he was "weird."
I don't know if MJ was transgendered, he may have been, but I can't say one way or the other. Yes, he had issues, and the world just wasn't good enough to him.
I have long thought MJ was trans. Besides those things already mentioned, I would add his manner of speaking and use of cosmetics. He really wanted very much to be liked, and I think that is the reason he chose not to transition.
MJ possibly trans?
I wonder how the allegations of child molestion would have been received if it was Janet Jackson, or any woman for that matter, having children over for sleepovers. The whole deal would probably have still benn seen as odd, but I don't know if the abuse charges would have stuck so easily. Women in general it seems are perceived to be incapable of harming children. Explains why a media circus erupts whenever a mother murders her
child(ren).
MJ had an odd life. Child star who became an adult superstar. The Pepsi commercial fire, vitilego. In all probablity an addiction to plastic surgery. The autopsy results show an indication of at least drug dependence at the time of his death.
This list could go on and on.
So yeah, I could also entertain the notion that he was on the "trans- spectrum."
Michael Jackson, R.I.P.
Quote from: Fae on July 01, 2009, 01:39:14 PMDuring his 2005 trial, a psychologist reviewed him and concluded that Michael had regressed to the mindset of a 10-year old child.
That makes sense- Peter Pan from Neverland, the boy that never grew up. That might also explain his death just at the cusp of middle age- maybe subconsiously he just couldn't bear the thought of getting any older.
Everything I read and hear about Michael now is just terribly sad. :'( I too hope he rests in peace.
Quote from: Julie Marie on July 01, 2009, 01:18:02 PM
Look at everything about him, his dress
You're kidding, I never saw him in a dress.
I think the makeup has a different explanation. He had to use opaque cover makeup (Dermablend or something like that) to hide his blotchy pigmentation. When the face is all covered with such a heavy monochrome coat of makeup, the base coat alone does not look right. It requires you to add more touches in order to look finished. It calls for blush, eyeliner, lip color, etc. to get a complete look. For those of you who wear makeup, would you go around in nothing but a heavy coating of foundation? Nobody does that.
As for his high voice, epicene nature, and fey manner, I attribute that to infantilism rather than transgender. Not advancement to womanhood, but regression to childhood.
poor guy I cant imagine the pain he must have felt his whole life. Its amazing to look back on his old videos and how talented and energetic he was. Really a great performer. I mean come on thriller, who didn't and doesn't still love it. lol.
The autopsy results show an indication of at least drug dependence at the time of his death.
Interesting, as the autopsy, the toxicology screen in particular, has not yet been released, no doubt because millions and millions are riding on just exactly how he died and they are making sure its letter perfect.
MJ weighed around 115lbs at time of death. His stomach contents were apparntly just a mixture of various pills. He was begging his nurse to give him a sedative that required an anesthatist to be present. Insomniac with bad back problems.
Jacko at the very least was a pill popper.
I have the feeling this will end up along the lines of an Anna Nichole type case.
All of that is nothing but rumor, innuendo and speculation.
What we do know is this. He was in heavy rehearsals and tech days for the big 50 shows he was going to put on in London. He was 50, and its been a while since he a) was in anything resembling great health, and b) since he has done 'the show'. So if he was doing pain killers and sleep aids, that's not far off track for such an endeavor. The long running joke in live theater was that the only tour with more drugs than the Grateful Dead was Cats. All that dancing, lots of pain pills.
After all, if nothing else, he was very aware of his star power, and stardom, and also knew that if these shows were not the best of his career, then by the time the first reviews hit the presses and the web he would have been 'a has been'. He was hemorrhaging money and knew it too, hell, I'd supposed I would need a sleep aid if I was owing upwards of half a billion dollars. So he had a lot riding on these shows, and I'm sure it was grueling. Rumor has it the rehearsals alone were costing $20 million to put on. Just exactly what is the rent on the Staples Center for almost a month? So I'm sure he was under a lot of stress and pressure, and I'm also sure that he was probably hurting like a mofo being 50, far underweight and having to perform like, well, Michael Jackson.
I never thought of MJ as trans. But I'm still kind of surprised that he's gone. I didn't expect him or Billy Mays to go
I often wondered the same thing watching he over the years. But the fact he had vast amounts of money from borrowing, if he was he did not use it to transition.
My ex wife use to think he was trying to be like his sister, Janet. I doubt that we will ever know.
Janet
MJ, trans? Yes, I always thought she was transgender.
Bev
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,8043.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,8043.0.html)
Well, I dunno, but some things point to it.
I never really gave it much thought before this week. Musically I've never been a fan, so I never gave MJ much attention. But I was talking with my electrologist about it this week and she brought up the possibility. He was certainly gender ambiguous, it would make sense, everyone pushing you to be this star, your identity essentially stripped away from you. There would be no actual identity to have, no self discovery even possible, you would just be what everyone wanted you to be. Plus the father seems to be a little bit nutty, to put it gently. I could imagine it becoming so repressed inside of a person under that kind of spotlight and in that situation. But we don't really know, and probably never will. I don't think he was MTF, but there was almost definitely some kind of identity issue going on that involved gender in some way. Obviously he was struggling with something for a very long time :(
I caught part of a special on him today, where a lady from his past was talking about how at 10 he lost the freedom to run, to play, to be a child. He had such huge expectations on him, and if he showed up places it was a big spectacle, etc.
So yeah, I don't think he was a child molester at all. I think he was an incredibly rich, well loved, successful person who was trying to obtain the only thing he really wanted: his childhood back. He had a series of really bad events in his life and as one of the most famous people in the world, was a target for it. Hell, can you imagine if every cheap comedian and late show host made jokes about you when there was a news lull?
Also when you're absolutely gorgeous, I imagine losing your looks is very difficult. Makeup is magic, plus, it can be fun. Some men actually enjoy dressing up (not crossdressing), men just aren't allowed to in general and still be successful in our culture. Unless you're a rockstar.
Quote from: Autumn on July 01, 2009, 11:04:28 PM
So yeah, I don't think he was a child molester at all. I think he was an incredibly rich, well loved, successful person who was trying to obtain the only thing he really wanted: his childhood back. \
Then instead of inviting ten year olds into his bed to drink Jesus Juice, he probably should've gone to therapy or at the very least, cuddled with Bubbles instead.
Probably.
But who cares, even if he did molest them. He made Thriller.
Nah he wasn't trans. He was just a kid at heart and had some very "convenient" and coincidental things happen to his appearance and all that, that made him just seem like a "white woman". The vitiligo, the makeup and treatment he had to cover it. The plastic surgeries I think were the result of a traumatic childhood and him trying to escape all the imperfections people saw in him, because he was always under the public eye.
I think he was kind of androgynous tho, but not anywhere near mtf. He had a masculine walk, was a proud father and sounded more like a young boy when he did the childish things he enjoyed, if you saw that "living with MJ" documentary. And, he always had sleepovers with boys because that was what he wanted to relate to. He was just a kid trapped in a man's body. :D
And I'm convinced that he was not a pedophile. He was very asexual because I think 1) he could not psychologically move past his childhood and be "grown up" and 2) when he was a kid his brothers had sex with girls in the same room he slept in which I think messed with his head as well. Also I think his accusers parents made them do it cause they wanted the money.
No. No, he probably wasn't. He was the way he was for all the reasons northy listed (and more). He actually had facial surgery (the clefted chin implant) because he wanted to appear MORE masculine. Some of his mental facilities may have regressed to the levels held by the average prepubescent child, but an average MALE prepubescent child. After all, his ultimate fantasy was to be Peter Pan.
Quote from: Audrey on July 01, 2009, 06:32:37 PM
poor guy I cant imagine the pain he must have felt his whole life. Its amazing to look back on his old videos and how talented and energetic he was. Really a great performer. I mean come on thriller, who didn't and doesn't still love it. lol.
I didn't and don't. But I still respect the talent.
I've always considered the trans possibility. Especially the possibility that he might be an androgyne. I understand the dysmorphic disorder. I'm just saying that if I could alter my appearance to come across as genderless, I would. The thing is that, some of us androgynes have a constantly shifting view of ourselves, so it'd be possible for someone to mess up given the right atmosphere. I mean mess up in terms of constant second guessing and trying to handle the stress of GID while being secret about it.
who knows, unless he left a journal?
His life might have been much different if he was brought up in New York city or San Fransisco. Despite his parents, I think it would have made a difference. If Jackson was a woman, I don't think he'd have entirely transitioned because of his career and reasons like that including his age. If he were a regional performer, maybe, but in the rotten 80s, you didn't see many, if any, world famous people transitioning.
I don't think he was trans. I just think he was someone whose odd choices in life were completely a result of abuse that he endured as a child.
I don't think Mike was trans.Without a doubt Mike did have some mental issues.
As some others here have said, I also feel that Michael was robbed of his childhood, developed a mistrust of many adults, and wanted to relive his childhood in some way. And since he had plenty of money, he could do it in a very "big" way, with Neverland. He never, ever struck me as the predator type. As far as the sleepovers are concerned, I have the impression that he was just a bit naive about that, maybe not realizing how outsiders would view it, since he himself was so innocent. As someone else mentioned, I've always felt that he tended toward the asexual side...even his crotch-grabbing and other posturing on stage always seemed very non-sexual to me.
All that being said, I think he was a wonderful, talented performer.
I was asking my friend the other day about that and she just thinks that he was gay but i think he wanted to be a women
Quote from: petzjazz on July 02, 2009, 03:12:12 PM
After all, his ultimate fantasy was to be Peter Pan.
Yeah, Peter Pan was Mary Martin LOL.........
Quote from: Julie Marie on July 01, 2009, 01:18:02 PM
Before you answer that think of how MJ went from a black boy to pretty much a white woman in his appearance. He idolized Diana Ross and was enamored with Liz Taylor. I remember reading he said he wanted to look like Diana Ross.
Look at everything about him, his dress, his presentation and all the plastic surgeries that resulted in a very feminine face.
And when you think about how so many of us are miserable and lonely until we transition and consider the fact he said he was a very lonely person (unhappy?) it makes me wonder if he was trans.
Could his life have been happier if he transitioned? No one seems to want to touch this but when you look at all he did it makes sense. I know the media and fans alike just chalked it up to weird but wasn't he really androgynous in his appearance? In this society, if we can't gender you, you are weird.
I'm only looking at his presentation and not at his child infatuation issues. That's a whole other issue.
Julie
Yep, I would say he was androgynous and I would agree that people aren't willing to accept a gender identity other than male or female. Check out Paul Gauguin. He considered himself an androgyne. Back in those days, they didn't have access to the plastic surgery procedures we have now. I'll post a link to a paper I did for art history class on Paul Gauguin soon (I'll have to review the rules to see if this is allowed first).
Never thought about but anything is possible.
Gennee
Quote from: Hypatia on July 01, 2009, 04:49:09 PM
You're kidding, I never saw him in a dress.
I think the makeup has a different explanation. He had to use opaque cover makeup (Dermablend or something like that) to hide his blotchy pigmentation. When the face is all covered with such a heavy monochrome coat of makeup, the base coat alone does not look right. It requires you to add more touches in order to look finished. It calls for blush, eyeliner, lip color, etc. to get a complete look. For those of you who wear makeup, would you go around in nothing but a heavy coating of foundation? Nobody does that. Most Black people with this condition use make-up that matches their origional skin color. This condition does not require lipstick and eyebrow shaping, nor hair straightening. I think he is trans
As for his high voice, epicene nature, and fey manner, I attribute that to infantilism rather than transgender. Not advancement to womanhood, but regression to childhood.
Andro, but caught between the balance of two genders. On top of all the childhood issues and i dont think he formed many real relationships that were intimate if any.
QuoteAs for his high voice, epicene nature, and fey manner, I attribute that to infantilism rather than transgender. Not advancement to womanhood, but regression to childhood.
Agreed wholeheartedly.
I've thought for a long time that MJ was probably trans, but there would've been great pressure from other people to not transition or say that they were. One can push a lot of boundaries in the entertainment industry, but saying that zie was trans even a few years ago probably would've had disastrous effects on hir career. Similarly, Liberace never said he was gay, but everyone knew.
Z
Quote from: northy on July 02, 2009, 05:01:19 AM
Nah he wasn't trans. He was just a kid at heart and had some very "convenient" and coincidental things happen to his appearance and all that, that made him just seem like a "white woman". The vitiligo, the makeup and treatment he had to cover it. The plastic surgeries I think were the result of a traumatic childhood and him trying to escape all the imperfections people saw in him, because he was always under the public eye.
I think he was kind of androgynous tho, but not anywhere near mtf. He had a masculine walk, was a proud father and sounded more like a young boy when he did the childish things he enjoyed, if you saw that "living with MJ" documentary. And, he always had sleepovers with boys because that was what he wanted to relate to. He was just a kid trapped in a man's body. :D
And I'm convinced that he was not a pedophile. He was very asexual because I think 1) he could not psychologically move past his childhood and be "grown up" and 2) when he was a kid his brothers had sex with girls in the same room he slept in which I think messed with his head as well. Also I think his accusers parents made them do it cause they wanted the money.
I was going to say much the same thing - Peter Pan syndrome writ large.
As for being trans, the thing that kills that thought for me was that he still had facial hair in fairly recent pics. If you are really gender variant and have that kind of money you deal with the facial hair.
As for the vitiligo being the underlying reason for the makeup...I often wondered why he used light makeup instead of trying to approach his natural skin tone. I don't think Vitialigo affects the whole body, just splotches. Seems like it would have been more direct just to cover the light spots with a base that matches your natural color.
I tend to wonder if he wasn't going beyond makeup though and having his skin bleached (is that possible?) because when you get a look up a sleeve or whatever in a photo, he's ghostly white everywhere you can see. Doesn't seem logical he'd have makeup everywhere...
I honestly don't think he had vitiligo. I think he bleached his skin. I don't remember if I read it or saw it somewhere, but his dad used to constantly make fun of things like the size of his nose, how dark his skin was (I guess because of the time it was and trying to make it in the music business ???) etc...that might have been one of those movies they base on people's lives, but I distinctly remember that and thinking how odd it was. Not only do I think he was trying to relive his childhood, I think he was trying to "fix" all the things that his father said were bad, including being black.