Susan's Place Transgender Resources

i'm just wondering if anyone got in trouble for using the women's room even though you were presenting as a female, but people figured you were male, and what happened?

In a strict sense, "never", but there are some variations.

As m2f crossdresser, I always cause attention and jokes in men's room just because of my long hair alone. A practical joker once commented like "You are certainly a man because you piss upright".

Sometimes I share women's room with my female friends. They shout at me, but mostly take it for granted.

In public bath, everybody is busy doing their own business, but some women study me because of my unusual height as a woman here. But, what can they say even if they suspect I might be a man?

Barbie~~

Never had anyone even pay that much attention really. I do however carry a letter from my therapist with her name and phone number that explains I am a transsexual woman and should be permitted to use public female restrooms. I've never had to show it to anyone, but I still carry it in my handbag just in case.

I've had a few incidents.  This is how I wrote about the worst one in a fictionalized version of my transition, although this account is pretty much word for word true, describing an incident in my local bar, where I'm a regular and everybody knows I am trans:

By the time their third round of songs was coming around, Ginger had closed-out her second half-pitcher, and used her bar tab from poker to buy a third half-pitcher that she shared with Rita.  Tanith was the designated driver, and had already stopped drinking.  After Tanith's and Rita's turns, Ginger excused herself to go to the ladies' room again, taking her purse, and intending to check her makeup and look her best when she came back to make her final push at getting somewhere with Tanith.  However, it was pretty clear, and becoming clearer, that Tanith intended to take Rita home, and then go home herself, alone, that night.  But Tanith said she was definitely coming to poker on Sunday.  She'd taken Ginger's phone number, and without Ginger asking, had given Ginger her number.  Ginger had said, only half in jest, "Are you sure you want to give this to me?  Because if you wake up sober tomorrow and decide not to call me, I'm not going to be able to be too proud to call you, because I like you too much."

In the ladies' room, almost as soon as Ginger sat down on the toilet, the door thumped as some woman unfamiliar with the place tried to get in.  Ginger had drank much beer, and peed for a long time, long enough to wonder if estrogen actually might help women hold it better.  The door rattled again, and Ginger said, "I'm going to be a minute, hold on."  Then she flushed the toilet and washed her hands.  Under other circumstances than being about to go back to being with a woman she was already romantically involved with, a woman who seemed like exactly the kind of woman Ginger had dreamed about being involved with, Ginger would have forgone fixing her makeup in deference to the woman waiting to get in.  But Ginger had been at the bar four hours now, and really needed to freshen her powder and redo her lipstick.  Before she was done, the door rattled a third time, and Ginger said, "Almost done.  Be right out."

When Ginger had repacked her purse, hung it over her shoulder, and checked her appearance in the mirror, she looked and felt great.  She only wished she could freshen her perfume.  Ginger opened the door and was confronted by an angry young woman, surely not twenty-five if she was even old enough to drink.  The woman seemed to be of mixed African-American and Latino descent, taller than Ginger, and very lean, like a tweaker, a meth addict.  The woman blocked Ginger's exit, and planted two fingers on Ginger's breastbone, as if to push Ginger back by intimidation, though her fingers could never actually be strong enough to push a grown woman.  The tall woman said, in a very nasty tone, her words dripping with threat like she was used to having people be scared of her, "You should use the men's room, and then I don't have to wait."

Ginger said, "Maybe you should use the men's room, if you don't want to wait."

"Don't be telling me what I gotta do or what I outta do.  You should use the men's room, because I know what you got between your legs, and it ain't no pussy.  You a man."

"You don't know nothing.  The most you can discern is what I was probably born with, not what I got now.  And that don't matter anyway.  Now get out of my way."  With those words, Ginger used her forearm to knock the tall woman's hand off her chest, and bulled past her.

As Ginger pushed past the tall woman, the tall woman grabbed the strap of Ginger's purse.  "Don't you be disrespectin' me, walking away from me when I talking to you.  An' you don't be touching me neither."

Ginger turned to confront the woman and free the woman's hand from her purse.  When Ginger turned to face the tall woman, Ginger's purse was hanging off her right shoulder and the tall woman had her left hand on the purse strap.  Ginger suspected that the tall woman was trying to steal Ginger's purse, as the woman had a clear shot out the open back door from where they were, in a small hallway that had the restroom entrances on the right, a locked back door to the kitchen on the left, and the bar's back door at the end of the hallway.  Ginger brought her right hand up to the woman's wrist, above where the woman was holding the purse strap, and Ginger brought her left hand across to take hold of the purse itself.

The woman yelled, "Get your hands off me!" though her yell would not have been heard in the bar over the volume of the music.  Simultaneous with her yell, the tall woman delivered a right cross, hitting Ginger square in the nose.  Ginger's grip on the tall woman's wrist was the lifesaving pain-control grip, and the tall woman had to release her grip on the purse strap, which allowed Ginger to step backwards out of the hallway towards the rearmost pool table, on which a game was in process.  Ginger saw in the tall woman's eyes that the tall woman had enjoyed hitting Ginger, and that she was about to do it again.  Ginger's hands were low, she couldn't get either one up in time to deflect the blow, but she was moving backwards already, and could slip the punch, by bending her spine backwards, to bring her head back in the same direction as the incoming punch, thus lessening the force of the blow, and increasing the distance it would have to travel before contact, also lessening it's impact.  But in the rigid corset, Ginger's spine had no flexibility, and she took a second punch, pretty much square in the mouth, which knocked her into the man setting up for his pool shot.  This man was another stranger, a young Latino, in a group with two other Latino men.  These three men formed up around the tall woman who had punched Ginger, and Ginger realized that the four of them had come in together, most likely gang-bangers.

Ginger had been punched by men who weighed twice what this woman weighed, and had barely felt the two little girl-punches.  Ginger thought for a moment that all four of them were about to come after her, and she stepped out of her pumps, in preparation to defend herself, with the pool table at her back.

But quicker than Ginger could have clicked her pumps together and said, "There's no place like home", there was a rush of bodies from every direction.  A 4-1 disadvantage quickly turned into 12-4, 16-4, and 20-4.  Each of the male gang-bangers was surrounded by three or four men, and the tall woman was ringed by half a dozen females.  Carmen was right up in the tall woman's face, and Makara was standing right behind the tall woman.  Burt, Frank, Snowman, Terminator, Rick, Lloyd, Chuck, Brad, Kirk and other men were crowding the Latino men in opposite directions to isolate them.  Suddenly Jenny was in the thick of it, taking hold of Ginger's wrist.  Jenny said, "Ginger, I need some help behind the bar washing glasses."

Ginger went with Jenny, and Jenny asked what happened.  Ginger said, "She punched me twice.  In the face.  For taking too long in the ladies' room.  Or maybe just for using it.  Or maybe just because she's a tweaker."

I have only done that twice & both times I haven't had any trouble yet, but next year I will be going full time so things are going to be.....interesting to say the least.

Carry mace/pepper spray.

Actually, folks freak on me more if I use the men's room lately. The guys don't say much, but they look noticeably uncomfortable. Maybe it's my cute lil' boobys that are getting more difficult to hide.

I've only had one problem in the ladies room. As I sat to do my business, I could hear some chatter. But I wasn't sure what it was about. Just as I had put my panties up, but not my jeans yet, the stall door was forced open and there were two security personnel. One of them looking down my tank top. They said "Excuse us ma'am, sorry." As they left I could hear them say "That's one tall drink o' water. It's a girl ladies. I suggest you all move on."  :P

No problems yet and it has been a number of years. Like Virginia I did have problems with the Men's room pre-transition, no matter how butch I tried to appear. I had guys running from there, literally. LOL.

Quote from: Virginia Marie on July 11, 2009, 12:19:20 AM
the stall door was forced open and there were two security personnel.

You should have sued them.  That's a violation of privacy under any circumstances.

Well at least you have stall doors, most of the big nightclubs in SF took them off years ago.

This is downright scary subject I never really thought about.

-- Galantha

Ladies are vicious. I got chased out of 2 bars for using the ladies. the guys usually don't care and once a bartender was about to tell me that I had used the wrong restroom. He stopped in midstride.

Pretty weird when your pre t and pre everything actually.

i never ever had any problem at all, and when i am in woman mode i never never never use men room.

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Post Merge: July 11, 2009, 02:58:28 PM

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Quote from: barbie on July 10, 2009, 05:39:14 PM



In public bath, everybody is busy doing their own business, but some women study me because of my unusual height as a woman here. But, what can they say even if they suspect I might be a man?

Barbie~~

Come to the USA or Europe and they'll study you because you are less tall and have a smaller body frame. hihi ^_^

i will say that i am lucky since it is usual in europe for some girls to be taller than me or have a bigger body frame.

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Post Merge: July 11, 2009, 04:00:48 PM

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Quote from: Virginia Marie on July 11, 2009, 12:19:20 AM
Actually, folks freak on me more if I use the men's room lately. The guys don't say much, but they look noticeably uncomfortable. Maybe it's my cute lil' boobys that are getting more difficult to hide.

i was once in a gay bar where there is only one toilet. and when i came in one guy said: looking for Mademoiselle toilets?

 :-\ I am honestly worried about how things will go for me next year when I go for my FLE Sofia (http://www.flickr.com/photos/26733936@N08/3515356573/#) that link has a pic of what I look like when I am in fem mode, I am currently pre-HRT does anyone think that I will have any problems, & I should be starting on HRT w/in a month or so.

Quote from: yabby on July 11, 2009, 03:55:01 PM
Come to the USA or Europe and they'll study you because you are less tall and have a smaller body frame. hihi ^_^

Yes. I had been in the US and several countries of Europe. In the US, some young ladies used to say hello to me and commented like "you are so tall!". Yes. That's true that few women in public restroom studied me, as America is so diverse in demography.

If you see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height,) you will notice there is no significant difference in average height between Korea, South and USA, either men or women, considering the sample age.

Another peculiar point of my body is the color of my legs in summer. Some women asked where I got sun tan, and I replied it is natural by the real sun.

The most bustling and alive restroom I have ever used is the one near colleage campus. Collegue sutdents fix their makeup and even their underwear in front of mirrors. They chat each other while doing their business. I guess women's restroom is a temporarily liberated area for women. They seem to feel safer and freer there.

Barbie~~

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Post Merge: July 11, 2009, 03:02:39 AM

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And local new media here reported that a most expensive public restroom was rencently opened in a beach of my area:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.chosun.com%2Fsitedata%2Fimage%2F200907%2F03%2F2009070300158_0.jpg&hash=8e75a4a1cfdc9f55cc5ddaab8067b61010a43521)

It costed about US $400,000. Hopefully I will use it in this summer (of course, women's).

And a public restroom exclusively for women installed in a traditional market:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcfile210.uf.daum.net%2Fimage%2F1231B317499C63541036A3&hash=af55bc87b2d44d82d95becdae679613bb20f1eff)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcfs12.tistory.com%2Fimage%2F18%2Ftistory%2F2009%2F02%2F19%2F05%2F11%2F499c6b6624fcb&hash=92c20461d97fe24dace19bcb36a0a7e1bfde76c2)

Local goverments try their best to attract people and tourists in other areas.

Barbie~~

Quote from: GinaDouglas on July 11, 2009, 11:47:31 AM
You should have sued them.  That's a violation of privacy under any circumstances.

I thought that it might be a privacy violation. But I didn't want to pursue it. I wasn't physically harmed and kinda got a kick out of getting ma'amed by mall cops in the Ladies room  :laugh:

So far I haven't had to worry a lot about this because primarily my dressing and outings have taken place in GLBT-friendly establishments (I am pre-op, part time dressed). Regardless, some of these places I've gone to are places where I am literally the only trans person there. Everyone else may be gay or lesbian but they are all clearly cis-gendered. This is a good "testing ground" for me because I need to learn the ropes of these "safe" environments before going to the more neutral ones (such as the shopping mall).

It seems a bit strange that security guards came to find out if you are a woman while you were still in the stall. Did you spend a long time in there? I have learned to simply "get in and get out." No unnecessary chit-chatting, no loitering, no fiddling around. I go in, do my business, and hit the door. This is the very reason I do this. The faster you are, the more time is on your side. If some woman left and summoned security by the time they even got there I would be long gone. Unless you are hanging out in there for excessive periods of time, I really don't understand how they could get there so fast short of already being right outside of the door. This is even more true with police. If the store called the police, by the time they got there, you would already be home. Simply put, if you are doing something that may be illegal or perceived to be illegal then be as low-profile as possible and don't waste time.

I strongly support standing up for our rights but some days you just want to get whatever you have to get done as quickly and painlessly as possible without any drama whatsoever.

Quote from: Britney_413 on July 12, 2009, 11:03:38 PM
I strongly support standing up for our rights but some days you just want to get whatever you have to get done as quickly and painlessly as possible without any drama whatsoever.

Indeed. I agree. And I always try to just finishi my business there. As nowadays I am used to it, I do not hurry too much.

And, not just in restrooms, sometimes I should restrain myself to avoid any fuss. I am sometimes unfarily treated by men or women, becuase of my feminine looking. If I were in male mode, I would admonish them, but I just hold back. Or, even that would not happen if I looked manly. Simply, it is not time for fighting for justice while I go out in female mode. I just try to enjoy what I initially intended.

Barbie~~

Well with me and this was so embarassing, but when i was working as a flight attendant and had to go while in the airport, mind you this is prior to living full time as that job wouldnt allow me to, i would go in the mens room in my male uniform (i never wore the suit jackets i refused to just a shirt and tie) men would always stop me and say miss your going in the wrong bathroom, so embarassing and i felt bad bc i didnt know how to react in that situation, like im in my work uniform and am representing my airline, but i couldnt be like ok, then go in the womans restroom... so needless to say i pretty much just held it and went on planes lol.  or sometimes some airports had uni rooms which i loved then.  now im full time so i strictly use the womens room but fear the whole someone finding out thing u know?

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Post Merge: July 13, 2009, 02:16:41 AM

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lol i must admit though sometimes i would be like in a rather deep tone.... very man like, "yeah i know its the mens restroom" just to see their reaction lol it was priceless...

As I've mentioned before on other "potty" threads, I try to avoid public restrooms as much as possible. Unfortunately, sometimes you gotta go. I usually try to do my biz and leave as quick as possible. But that day at the mall I was having a bad tummy and there was extensive "paper work" to be done. So that slowed me down quite a bit. I ended up just going home and going to sleep  :P

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi7.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy261%2Fthemansonite%2Fbs%2FCalvin_Klein_Ad.jpg&hash=dd9ad27acf0ced841394736f401cba0ec56bf151)

What would be men's response?

Barbie~~

Not to care.

I've never had a problem, and I've used a fair number of different women's restrooms.  Often I get into conversation with other women there.  If they recognize that I had years of testosterone-poisoning they are at least polite enough not to mention it. ;)

The closest I've come to even being questioned was when using a restroom at a pub in a large American city.  I was freshening my makeup while I waited for a stall.  Two women came out of adjoining stalls, one of which I took.  As I was sitting down I could hear they were leaving the room and one whispered to the other: That was a man. :D  They were leaving, so I didn't have an opportunity to dispute the statement.  (I may have been male, but I was never a man. ;D)

- Kate

Well, I try to avoid public restrooms. But when I got to the super market today, I had to tinkle really bad. Without thinking I darted into the men's room. As the door closed I could hear someone say "um, ma'am". There was a guy (Cowboy) using the urinal. He looked at me in shock and got so distracted he pissed on the floor. I ducked into a stall.

When I came out the Cowboy was there talking to his Cowboy friend and said "See, there she goes.....etc." They followed me around while I shopped. They didn't do anything bad really. Even tipped their hats and smiled. But I felt nervous. I just smiled and nodded back. When I got to the check out, they'd gone about their own business

It felt odd to have someone actually take interest

At work we use the same restroom as customers. It... is obnoxious some days. Yesterday I'm at the urinal and a guy walks in, looks at me, walks out, looks at the door, looks at me, looks at the door, and then comes in. I used to laugh and feel great about it but as I get older I'm just preferring to not draw attention in any capacity. But it happens all the time. When I hear the door open and suddenly the footsteps stops I'll usually announce "You've got the right one" without looking up from the urinal or sink, usually to a laugh in response.

What I've realized is... men don't understand that the ladies' room doesn't have urinals.  >:-)

Quote from: Autumn on July 19, 2009, 01:36:03 AM
What I've realized is... men don't understand that the ladies' room doesn't have urinals.  >:-)

Huh? ??? Am I missing something here?

You present as a woman but use the men's room to use the urinal?  You either feel you are a woman or want to be a woman but stand to pee? 

Is it just me, or is something wrong with this picture? ???

In confusion,
Kate

Sorry, what I forgot or didn't want to mention is that I caught the guy watching me adjust my panties through the space between the stall and the stall door. But that's what guys do. They "check it out". Luckily he didn't see my junk. He just saw a girl in a hurry adjusting her stuff  :P

What?  Another potty thread.
Just go in, smile at the the other women, respond to female small talk in appropriate ways, look in the mirror, wash your hands with soap. Look in the mirror again, and thank God you're a woman, finally.

Bev

Oops, sorry, OMGosh, didn't mean to turn it into another "Potty Thread" Never Mind.....

i was in London lately for work, of course i was dressed as a boy for professional reasons.

then inside the building i was looking for the toilet and a girl working there said: are you looking for the ladies toilets? it is just straight and then go to the right.

yabby i have had the same thing happen to when i first started transition. me in work cloths (scrubs) in the hospital, walk in the mens room and a guy said malm your in the mens room. so i just said sorry and went into the womans room

well i just to the men room, the girl was like "OH  i am really really sorry" and i replied with a big smile on my face saying: no need to be sorry.  ^_^

never had a problem but i think you just need confidence your all there to go to the bahroom

I'm 6 foot and easily read but I've lived in role for two years, have always used female restrooms (in the UK) and not yet had a single incident.
There, more than anywhere else, it's important to look confident and at ease.
It's a lot easier if you are accompanied by someone who is clearly a genetic female though and many times I have been.

If possible, when going in alone I watch the traffic for a few minutes and try and pick up on when the place is empty or near empty - the worst possible situation IMO is to walk in and find a queue 'cos they'll all have plenty of time to notice and study you   :-\
- The going in part is the difficult one - once you're in the stall you're safe and even if the place is crowded when you come out, you're on your way OUT then so who cares?  :)

Part of the "problem" is that the ladies room is NOTHING like the Gents - girls loiter and chat to each other even if they're complete strangers.
There is one pub that I go into that has a beautifully fitted-out restroom - complete with a pair of large leather sofas!!!
I walked in there one night, having studied the traffic and concluded that there was unlikely to be anyone else in there, to find SEVEN girls sat on the sofas chatting  :o
- they all looked up at me as I walked in so I smiled slightly and went into the stall. They carried on with their chatter and I did not hear any whispering or negative comment.

It's bound to happen that there will be an incident one day and I have a pre-planned outline of what to say, but...... so far, so good.

I can't stress enough though how vital it is to appear confident and at ease.

I've never had a problem before, which I'm thankful for.

Although, I *hate* public washrooms, 'cause so many of them are dirty and gross. There's nothing like going into a stall and finding pee all over it (and sometimes blood). Those are times where I wish I could stand up and pee. LOL Hovering isn't as easy as it sounds either (which is why half of the time pee is all over the place).

Quote from: barbie on July 13, 2009, 11:13:04 AM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi7.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy261%2Fthemansonite%2Fbs%2FCalvin_Klein_Ad.jpg&hash=dd9ad27acf0ced841394736f401cba0ec56bf151)

What would be men's response?

Barbie~~

I like that picture...

Actually, I was out with friends last night (in boy mode) and at one point some of the girls started talking about a (girl) friend of theirs who DID in fact pee standing up.  And apparently so does one of the girls (age 3) at the daycare my roommate works at.

Quote from: Steffi on August 15, 2009, 08:11:49 PM
Part of the "problem" is that the ladies room is NOTHING like the Gents - girls loiter and chat to each other even if they're complete strangers.

when was the last time you found men fixing their make up in the mirror?  ;D

some of the reactions i did get so far was "i like your dress" or "i like your make up"

what's worse is trying to hover while holding your long skirt up around your waist... sheesh. I figure I have officially been initiated into the proper use of the ladies room because I came out of a public stall the other day with my very pretty ankle length skirt tucked neatly into the back of my panties. :embarrassed: Luckily one of the other ladies that happened to be in there let me know about it before I walked out into the mall that way! Oh well, something every girl has to experience once, right? lol

^^^   still did not sleep or also living on the other side of the Atlantic or a very early bird? hihi 

Quote from: FairyGirl on August 16, 2009, 03:47:14 AM
I came out of a public stall the other day with my very pretty ankle length skirt tucked neatly into the back of my panties.

Oh my dear, this story totally made my day! Not just tucked, but neatly tucked. Woot!

Yesterday, I was with my family while returning home from a short trip. We stopped at a rest place. I have always used men's bathroom while I am with my family, but at this time, I used women's after checking whether my wife and daughter came out. I do not want to meet my wife in women's rest room.

When I washed my hands after finishing my business, an aged man entered. He seemed to be a cleaning worker there as he had cleaning tools and seemed to clean something next to me. He had spied on me when I smoked near the rest room just before entering the rest room. I was still a little bit surprised. Here it is O.K. that cleaning women enter men's, but I have never seen a cleaning man enter women's. But, no woman seem to compalin on this matter.

Barbie~~

Quote from: ="Yabby"Steffi said -   Part of the "problem" is that the ladies room is NOTHING like the Gents - girls loiter and chat to each other even if they're complete strangers.

when was the last time you found men fixing their make up in the mirror?  ;D

some of the reactions i did get so far was "i like your dress" or "i like your make up"

LOL @ men's make-up! 
It's all down to guys' HUGE paranoia when they're in the Gents, whereas I think that girls actually see the restroom as a Safe Haven where they can drop their guard and really relax for a minute or two.

Yeah, girls will often touch each others stuff .... "Oh that's a nice brush/pretty compact/lovely colour, where did you get it?"

Girls are pretty free about touching each other :o- e.g. "Hang on luv - your label's stuck out" and reach up and tuck it in for them.  If one was in the Gents and some guy was struggling to get his arm into his overcoat, you could not possibly say "Here mate, let me give you a hand" and hold his coat for him!
- the reason I know that is because once long ago, I did so!
Touching another guy in the Gents in any way is a taboo that is clearly understood from childhood on. Even accidental contact causes instant hostility.   :-\ 

Accompanied by a natal female, I went into one crowded Ladies in a rock club to find two girls swapping bras! One was wearing a basque/bustier type thing and the other a bra and they were just in the process of swapping when we walked in.  I got a bit of a stare, but not really hostile and we went into the stalls.  When we came out, the owner (or original wearer) of the basque was just lacing the other girl in. My companion, Holly said to her "Oh..... you don't want to do it that way - I've got one and if you lace inwards from the edges so that the bow's in the middle, it pulls together much more evenly and doesn't gape at the top. Here, let me do it...." and proceded to redo the lacing. When she was done and ready to pull tight, she said to the wearer "are you right there, with the cups?" reached round from the back and lifted the cups/underwires up into place - therefore briefly cupping the other girls breasts   :icon_yikes:  Neither seemed to think anything of it at all.  (Holly and the other two girls are approx 19 to early 20's)

After a lifetime of male paranoia, it takes some getting used to    :icon_help:
- of course, I don't touch other girls anywhere for any reason ..... I'm still far too unsure yet and wouldn't risk it, but they've touched me a couple of times.

i was once in a club, and while in the girl room i started chatting with a girl and after a while she say: i need to go to the stall, just come.
me: oh no not necessary.
she then dragged me and said: come on i am not shy.

of course she just dragged me because we were chatting and she did not want to stop chatting with me (there was no other reasons at all).   

Now try to do this in the men room haha  ;D

This topic is funny, I almost got busted once...Me and my FtM Sister where at a store, while our Grandpa was outside waiting by the car for us to be finished and the Men's Room was closed for my FtM Sister, so me and her went into the Lady's Room and we were doing our business...Like anyone else...We hear this really big gas fart from a stall in the middle of us, we don't pay attention to it and finish.

We get out of the stall and wash our hands, the lady walks out of the stall and stares at us, she then says to my FtM sister (Who is still pre-op and passing as a girl), "Dang! You guys are really tall!", Then she stares at me and says, "Nice make-up by the way, honey!"

We move out of the way and the lady washes her hands, in the stall she forgot to pull up her panties and when she was walking out you could see her male noodle sticking out as we just figured out that we got stopped by a transgendered women...Funny really.

How would she be walking without pulling her panties up? Penguin walk?

Quote from: LordKAT on August 16, 2009, 12:55:40 PM
How would she be walking without pulling her panties up? Penguin walk?

Something like that, we just thought that she was drunk at first...

Strange, funny but strange.

A guy got upset once because I used the mens room while dressed as a woman. But mostly I will use the restroom for the gender I am dressed as. Sometimes at a local gay lounge I use the mens stall standing in heels just to get a reaction when I exit from the stall.

I have never had a problem, but I do have my carry letter just in case.  When I came out at work I was told in no uncertain terms that I could not use the men's room at all.  That, of course, was fine by me.  I have ran into many of the girls I work with and the response is always the same.  "Hi Janet".


Janet

I recently attended the Rogers Cup tennis tournament in Montreal. The ladies room lines there were HUGE. I never encountered any strange looks or problems, just polite smiles and a little small talk twice.

Quote from: heatherrose on September 08, 2009, 11:35:13 AM

As I washed my hands, the cutest little (5-6yr. old) tiger came in,
chattering ahead of his Daddy. With a look of confused fright, he stopped cold
silent in his tracks, staring at me. His Daddy, right behind him, almost ran him over,
as he saw me. Apologizing and stepping backwards through the still open door,
he looked at the sign and then back at me. Trying to manage some sort of soothing
tone as I looked into that shocked little face, I said, "You are in the right room".
Smirking, his daddy says, "Oh, ok" as he scoots his little boy, who was pointing
and protesting, "...but there's a lady...", past me into a stall.
That was the last time I used the men's restroom.

Awww! That has got to be sad and an big ouch! Well if they thought you were a lady, you could of have used the ladies room then! ;]

Quote from: heatherrose on September 08, 2009, 09:20:52 PM

Yup.

If you don't mind me askin'...If you do mind. They just say so. If you pass as an lady why did you use the Men's Room? :]

Quote from: heatherrose on September 08, 2009, 10:12:39 PM

It was very early in my transition and
I was not secure in my "passing" ability.
I was scared of getting into problems with the law.

Butches go in the ladies room all the time...Just say your a butch! ;]

LOL! When I was early in (Still kind of am), I would get questioned, but I would say...Oh sorry! I'm a lesbian butch--Don't mind me. Seriously? What are the other girls going to say or do? They really can't do much and if they did---Just book it!  :police:

Ouch, skirt tucked in the back of the panties... that was close !
Better double-check everytime from now on... ;)

Quote from: heatherrose on September 08, 2009, 11:35:13 AM

As I washed my hands, the cutest little (5-6yr. old) tiger came in,
chattering ahead of his Daddy. With a look of confused fright, he stopped cold
silent in his tracks, staring at me. His Daddy, right behind him, almost ran him over,
as he saw me. Apologizing and stepping backwards through the still open door,
he looked at the sign and then back at me. Trying to manage some sort of soothing
tone as I looked into that shocked little face, I said, "You are in the right room".
Smirking, his daddy says, "Oh, ok" as he scoots his little boy, who was pointing
and protesting, "...but there's a lady...", past me into a stall.
That was the last time I used the men's restroom.

Oh a kid story tangent - not a bathroom but still....

Stopped at a year sale a week ago and was wearing my usual fem-but-not-overt clothing and a head band with some light makeup.

There's a child in the yard, maybe five or so, and while I'm talking to his mom (small talk) the kid interrupts and says "Momma that's not a girl"

Awkward! I knew she knew but that meant we had to kind of ignore what was now out on the table.

As for bathrooms, I was totally dressed in Tupelo last week but I didn't bring myself to dare the ladies room. may have been best since I got "yes sir" at one point later in the day! Being clocked aside, who says "yes sir" to anyone in a skirt?

Oh well, back to your discussion.

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Post Merge: September 08, 2009, 11:51:13 PM

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Quote from: heatherrose on September 08, 2009, 10:12:39 PM

It was very early in my transition and
I was not secure in my "passing" ability.
I was scared of getting into problems with the law.

I think in most countries and states, there is no law code on that matter.

Last weekend, in the airport of Atlanta, I used lady's, but saw a gentleman entered women's mistakenly. If a law code exists, then he could be punished, but it would be very harsh. That can not be any kind of crime, unless he does something further wrong there.

Barbie~~

Heatherrose, that is a shame and ridiculous that you had those issues back in MT with the police. I've had similar run-ins with police about why I'm out late at night, etc. but so far I've never been in "girl mode" when it actually happened. Maybe it isn't wise according to some, but I have started to get a bit "smart" with the cops when this happens. You have the right to walk down the street, any street, at any time, wearing whatever you want. I'm sick of police wasting time worrying about random people's petty personal habits when they should be out going after real criminals. It is none of their business who you are or what you are doing as long as you are not breaking the law. I refuse to answer their requests or even give them an ID if they don't have probable cause. It is not their job to be providing opinions on how you should live your life (i.e. you shouldn't be here late at night). What the hell is wrong with this country?

I may be wrong but I believe that refusing to show your ID is refered to as obstructing an officer.

Quote from: LordKAT on September 10, 2009, 03:43:48 AM
I may be wrong but I believe that refusing to show your ID is refered to as obstructing an officer.

Yes, and the next step is a trip to the station where they can check your ID more thoroughly if they are so inclined.  And don't think it will be easy to refuse a trip to the station.

Most law enforcement officers are just doing a very difficult job as best they can, but there are a few who are bored and looking for entertainment (trouble) or were never whole before they put on a badge and gun and therefore want to exercise their authority.  In my experience those are a very small percentage, but you never know when you'll run into one.

Keep yourself safe.  And try not to p*** off anyone carrying a gun.

- Kate

Quote from: heatherrose on September 09, 2009, 08:48:25 PM
The fact that there may not be a law against something
does not shield you from an interface with a redneck pig itching for
an excuse to pull his billy club, taser, pepperspray or sidearm.

heartrrose,

Really sorry for hearing that. I heard that central states in the US are relatively conservative, but in your case, it think the cops broke the law, and could be punished in the court. But nobody is actually willing to sue them.

I was in Maryland and DC areas for 11 years, and had never experienced that kind of incident. The cops should have a clear reason to stop me, for example breaking a traffic law.

In my country, cops could be armed but seldom use it. Even armed, in most cases, they actually don't have real bullets in the gun. If they stop me and ask ID, then I will ask them to show their own ID, then ask them to explain the reason why they stopped me.

About 3 months ago, I made a fuss and a patrol car came to us. But no problem. I once posted that story at: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,61579.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,61579.0.html)

Barbie~~

The US is huge, and the cop population is, umm, diverse.  Some are great, others are good, lots are terrible.  It's hard to prosecute them though, particularly in rural areas.

So much depends on a) the cop's perception of what is going on, and b) how much real police work they have to do.

Quote from: tekla on September 10, 2009, 10:36:29 PM
The US is huge, and the cop population is, umm, diverse.  Some are great, others are good, lots are terrible.  It's hard to prosecute them though, particularly in rural areas.

So much depends on a) the cop's perception of what is going on, and b) how much real police work they have to do.

The problem with law enforcement I see from a few friends and family member who are in it is that they do everything like the military.  And with your in some hyper masculine subculture it really doesn't work out the greatest for diversity for people who are gay, lesbian, tg etc I believe. 

Sure, they teach diversity, but they don't have to practice it.  Most police tend to be on a power trip and high on life.  Of course, that's just my opinion.  I have met some very nice down to earth people as well.  Just that much variety I guess.

It seems to me that people need to learn their rights and responsibilities when dealing with law enforcement.

Yeah, but even that's up to debate there Mister, your 'rights' in dealing with the police in SF are a lot different from doing it with a sheriff in a rural county in Wyoming.  And a police officer is duty bound to investigate anything they think is a crime, or a potential crime.  And I'm pretty sure that as a lawful authority you have to produce ID when asked.

I would think that in Billings Montana - not exactly a bastion of liberal thought or anything - the cop figured he was doing a service (to protect and serve) by taking you to the room, thus avoiding a fight, or worse.

And, I'm just as sure that the reason they were doing that, and would not in SF, is because in SF they have lots and lots - too many - real crimes to go after and can't afford to sweat the small stuff.

You only have to provide ID if you're driving a car or being detained.  If you're being detained, they need to tell you why (and not just 'you looked suspicious'). 

A police officer may ask a citizen for identification and use the information garnered from the request, even if the officer has no reasonable cause to suspect that a crime has been committed, according to a ruling from the Sixth Circuit on Thursday.  Generally police officers are allowed to demand identification (or that a person identify themselves) and pat a person down if they have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has or is about to occur — a situation known as a Terry stop. Police generally are not allowed to demand to show identification, but the court ruled that police using language such as "I would like to see some identification" are simply requesting identification, not demanding it.

In the case at hand, an officer followed a car in a neighborhood that had recently had a number of burglaries.  The driver parked in an empty building's lot, then got out and made a phone call.  The officer parked, walked over and asked if there was a problem.  The man said he was lost and asking his girlfriend for directions and handed the cellphone to the officer to prove it.  The officer then said he'd like to see the man's I.D. so he could log the encounter.  The man hem and hawed, said he didn't have I.D. on him, and then told the officer a name he often went by, but which had no record of a driver's license.  The officer then patted him down, asked to see what was in his pockets, found drugs and then found a loaded gun in the car.

While the lower court threw out the drugs and gun as evidence, ruling that the officer had actually seized the man by asking him for identification, the Sixth Circuit reversed (.pdf) that saying that a request from an officer for identification is just a request and a citizen should know they are free to walk away.

In practicality, that's not how citizens interact with cops and declining a cop's "request" is going to make any cop suspicious and lead them to further investigate you.  But as a matter of law, if you are a citizen on the street and a cop asks you for identification, you have MORE legal protections if you say no and force them to find or make up a reason to initiate a Terry stop. Instead of showing identification or saying you don't have any or don't want to show it, simply ask "Am I free to go?"  And you should never consent to any search of your person or bag or car, even if you are told you will be in more trouble if you don't.

And refusing to identify yourself when in the midst of a Terry stop can land you in jail, depending on your state's laws, according to a recent Supreme Court decision known as Hiibel. The story behind the cowboy who fought the law and lost in that case is here.

Like I said, you don't have to provide ID unless you're under certain conditions.

In court it's your word "I wasn't doing anything" against the cops "suspect was seen in an area of known drug dealing, or known prostitution, or acting suspiciously" --- guess who they believe?

Oh yeah, they have a gun and a taser too, do you really want to challenge them?  I've been asked several times for my ID when I'm out late (3am) taking pictures, I give it to them, along with my union card and theater laminate and tell them the truth - never seems to be a problem.

I guess gun possession has caused such subtle differences with respect to rules of police officer. In most countries where gun possession is not allowed, most suspects can be assumed that they do not potentially present immediate threat to the police officer.

For example, in my country, a police officer should have ample and solid reasons of firing his gun, even if the suspect presents immediate danger. Else, he would be charged of excessive self-defense, as 99.99% of citizens here do not possess any gun. And, even when the suspect wields a knife or others to threaten the life of the police officer, he should fire his gun at the legs of the suspect. If he shoots at the torso or head, then he would be also face the charge of excessive self-defense. Killing the suspect by the gun would be tolerated in such cases like hostage in which it is difficult to make a good hit in the distance.

In most cases, police officers here assume that we are not threatening their life, even though we could have violated some law codes.

Barbie~~

Different world here, police often shoot first, ask questions later - particularly in the use of tasers.

A problem here is that it is difficult to see any police officer when we indeed need their help. To save personnel expenses, the police heavily depends on the CCTV which is installed in virtually every places in this country. All of the police officers are too busy doing bureaucratic paper works and investigating other serious criminal cases, sometimes ignoring the help call. This once leaded to a big news here: http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/03/117_21677.html (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/03/117_21677.html)

Barbie~~

Quote from: tekla on September 11, 2009, 11:22:39 AM
In court it's your word "I wasn't doing anything" against the cops "suspect was seen in an area of known drug dealing, or known prostitution, or acting suspiciously" --- guess who they believe?

Since I don't do anything that'd land me in court to begin with, I'm not concerned about it.  If a cop were to pull the 'seen in an area of known crime X,' I'd mention that if they'd police the area near my residence, there wouldn't be a crime X to be in the vicinity of.

A police officer with probable cause can require you to identify yourself. Identifying yourself usually means giving them your name and date of birth and maybe a current address at the most. You are not required to carry or produce a government ID. The main exception to this rule is if you are driving then you must show a valid driver's license. There is no law requiring one to carry a government ID simply to walk around on a public street.

Never happened to me, thankfully.

I thought it had one, but it turned out not to be the case.  It was rather humorous.  If you are interested, I wrote about it here:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,10208.msg76375.html#msg76375 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,10208.msg76375.html#msg76375)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

To be fair, the Memphis police treat everyone that way, black or white, gay or straight - the MPD and the Shelby County Sheriffs are among the worst thugs in uniform in the nation.

Sadly, you can't trust all of the cops either. While many are nice and professional, some out there are psychologically unbalanced and are looking for a reason to kill someone. This is why I make it a point that when stopped by police to do everything I can to pull over in an area where there is likely to be witnesses. You don't have a lot of options of course when walking but if you are driving down a deserted country road, I don't see a problem in calling 911 to verify there is a real officer behind you before actually stopping.

Additionally, as much as police will watch your every move to see if you have weapons or are hiding something, I also watch their every move as well. It really can be quite scary. It also pays to be as professional as possible. I still recommend asking for their names and badge numbers but it is safer to argue your constitutional rights in a lawsuit or formal letter of complaint than on a deserted road with no one around.