This is my own view on this subject. I personally am an agnostic, and do not believe there is data either way. You do not need to share this view. :)
To me I am SURE god exists. Maybe not in a way any of us has ever been told.
Perhaps its like the patterns behind creation.
I thik organised religions have caused many people to turn from a belief in god.
Too much beaurocracy! Many people have a feeling for the divine at odd moments, a birth, seeing stars in a desert, in love.
Do you know the blind men elephant story? Three blind men were meeting an elephant for the first time. One met his leg and said 'its like a tree'. One met his skin and said 'its like a rock'. One met his trunk and said its like a snake!' each one was true, but all saw only a part.
To me to imagine that humans could ever understand the totality of the universe is such hubris that to imagine if a creator exists that we could understand any part of that is even more mpossible.
The only way would be if that creator wished it so and had the power to make it possible. ANd even then I imagine it would only be a tiny part.
Many people deny existence of god but use other peoples definition instead of their own. That makes it hard to accept existence of god.
Being agnostic to me means not believing either way until evidence is given. Incidentally I have never been to Australia but I believe it does!
This subject has been debated for over 6000 years! There is so very much to say on the subject!
Anyway I know that for me god does exist.
Love, Sky X
Quote from: sky on September 17, 2006, 05:29:03 PM
To me I am SURE god exists. Maybe not in a way any of us has ever been told.
Perhaps its like the patterns behind creation.
I thik organised religions have caused many people to turn from a belief in god.
Too much beaurocracy! Many people have a feeling for the divine at odd moments, a birth, seeing stars in a desert, in love.
Do you know the blind men elephant story? Three blind men were meeting an elephant for the first time. One met his leg and said 'its like a tree'. One met his skin and said 'its like a rock'. One met his trunk and said its like a snake!' each one was true, but all saw only a part.
To me to imagine that humans could ever understand the totality of the universe is such hubris that to imagine if a creator exists that we could understand any part of that is even more mpossible.
The only way would be if that creator wished it so and had the power to make it possible. ANd even then I imagine it would only be a tiny part.
Many people deny existence of god but use other peoples definition instead of their own. That makes it hard to accept existence of god.
Being agnostic to me means not believing either way until evidence is given. Incidentally I have never been to Australia but I believe it does!
This subject has been debated for over 6000 years! There is so very much to say on the subject!
Anyway I know that for me god does exist.
Love, Sky X
Well - I have no doubt that there are both foces in the universe greater than ourselves that science does not understand yet. When I nearly died in 2002, I did sense something was there - not letting me go yet. Perhaps it was God - perhaps it was fate. That force greater than ourself is perhaps what I think God is.
There is little doubt in my mind that if God does exist, he is utterly disgusted with what is done in his name - and religion is the man made costruct by which that abuse is propelled.
"Many people deny existence of god but use other peoples definition instead of their own. That makes it hard to accept existence of god."
This is a great point. I don't think THEIR God exists - the one that demands all the self hate the opression of gays and minorities. The one that will pass judgement at the end of time. I am certian that is just a psychological construct to perpetuate social control.
This is my own personal belief, but I belive each person has a moral responsibility to design a set of principles to live by. I think ultimately, the judgement of you own character is how well you have held youself to your principles.
What a great discussion!
*hugs* Bree
Quote from: Brianna on September 17, 2006, 03:18:03 PM
This is my own view on this subject. I personally am an agnostic, and do not believe there is data either way. You do not need to share this view. :)
I agree 100% with you on the fact that this is your own view on this subject!
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
P.S.
QuoteYou do not need to share this view. :)
I don't.
Quote from: Tinkerbell on September 17, 2006, 08:51:06 PM
I don't.
That is just awesome. I think it's great that there are people less jaded than I. :)
Brianna
Whether or not God is disgusted with people on earth is not the issue. Personally, my day-to-day living hinges on the knowledge that there is something better out there for me. Is there a god? I believe so, yes, because somehow I'm still alive. Does he (or she) care about people here on earth? I think so. Otherwise, what would be the point of our living? But do we do things that displease this god? Absolutely. Organized religion, I agree, is filled with hypocrisy. However, I do not think that fact alone negates a higher power. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinions, of course; and this is mine.
Rafe
There are those who will abuse the belief in god to misdirect the masses. Self proclaimed religious royalty pump up hatred leading their incited zealots to the pyre. Patience will abide the crumbling of their sand castles. Forced ignorance condems us. The universal truths of love and charity free us.
Support your local Druids
;)
Cindi
Like these people?
Speaking in tongues, weeping for salvation, praying for an end to abortion and worshipping a picture of President Bush — these are some of the activities at Pastor Becky Fischer's Bible camp in North Dakota, "Kids on Fire," subject of the provocative new documentary, "Jesus Camp."
"I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are in Palestine, Pakistan and all those different places," Fisher said. "Because, excuse me, we have the truth."
"A lot of people die for God," one camper said, "and they're not afraid."
"We're kinda being trained to be warriors," said another, "only in a funner way."
"It's an absolute, straight-up us-against-them," Sandler said. "It's, you're either with us or you're against us. ... Not only are you a sinner, but you are working for the enemy — the enemy being Satan."
Read the Story (http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2455343), or watch the trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_EKHK1C2IE
I still remember the Christian who promised to start the stoning with me :P I am still waiting.
Hi everyone,
This is too long to paste here, and I don't really want to try to summarize it. It needs to be thought of in context.
http://elizabeth-alive.com/MyPhilosophy2.htm (http://elizabeth-alive.com/MyPhilosophy2.htm)
Love always,
Elizabeth
Tinkerbell's faith is strong. She's one of the finest Christians I've ever met. And she doesn't paint it on a fence or force her beliefs on any one else. Those are the characteristics of faith I admire.
Susan, I'm still waiting for that same stoner! There are a few others out there who would like to do me in.
Elizabeth, I'm still trying to figure out how the theory of entropy figures in to the organization of life. I'm still not sure how the two get along. Entropy marches along grandly as we see it now. I love to discuss the philosophy of it all with those who will talk.
Brianna, bless your heart. You see right through the thinly painted signs of the zealots. We have as many here as there are over there. When we finally are able to push ours into complete poverty, they shall become just as violent. And who knows which nation will suffer the guilt of our hypocracy. That, my friend will become apocolypse. And they will tell us.... see? It is prophecy fulfilled! Let me give you my vision... in this they are right. It will very likely happen and they will be the cause.
Rafe, you go kiddo. Hold us together.
And Cindi... go hug a tree.
Cindi
That.
Trailer.
Is.
Beyond.
Scary.
It reminds me so much of the strictly religious upbringing I had. For the 12 most impressionable years of my life, garbage, in the guise of schooling, was pushed into my mind before I had the ability to think critically. It was really confusing to me - I knew there was something very wrong with me but I also knew I had to be part of the happy, oblivious system.
If others can forgive Christians for their hate of our kind and others, I will not try to disuade you. But I completely lack this emotional capacity. I don't think there is anything altruistic about Christians and I think they cause far more cultural damage than they allegedly solve.
Or, in the words of my favorite philosopher, H.L. Menchen...
"I believe that religion, generally speaking, has been a curse to mankind - that its modest and greatly overestimated services on the ethical side have been more than overcome by the damage it has done to clear and honest thinking."
There are those who will abuse the belief in god to misdirect the masses. Self proclaimed religious royalty pump up hatred leading their incited zealots to the pyre. Patience will abide the crumbling of their sand castles. Forced ignorance condems us. The universal truths of love and charity free us.
Support your local Druids
Cindi
----------------------
yeah..............what ...she.... said.
Elizabeth, if I were to write an essay about my philosophy, one would probably think I committed plagerism from yours. I agree with everything you said. Its too bad all the sheeple in the world need someone else to tell them what to believe, how to act, need an explanation for what is, and cant life their lives for the now. I totally believe living you life for the afterlife is a waste of you existance.
I was raised on a household that allowed fredom of thought and believe. I was never told to believe anything or not to. I did atend church twice as a young lad with a friends family and decided to have nothing to do with it. I am an atheiest...and one that doesn't simply not believe god exists, but believes god does not exist. I follow no religion. And for that so many would assume I am an imoral, sinning, devil warshipping, disgrace to human kind. Funny thing about that, I am probably one of the most accepting, moral, forgiving, caring, people because I am an atheist. My parents raised me to put others first, do no harm to others, respect everyone, do only as I would want done to me. My knowledge of what death is, (where mind, thought, soul, self awareness, everything we know but our physical body siese to exist, leving behind a corpse to be recycled by the world) has given me the most profound respect for life. life is the most precious thing we all have, and is the one thing that can not be given back once taken. I truely believe if religions, or more specifically the belief of any afterlife, did not exist killing in its many forms would virtually siese.
Quote from: Brianna on September 18, 2006, 08:38:35 AM
Or, in the words of my favorite philosopher, H.L. Menchen...
"I believe that religion, generally speaking, has been a curse to mankind - that its modest and greatly overestimated services on the ethical side have been more than overcome by the damage it has done to clear and honest thinking."
I view religion as a virus, non biological, in the form of a meem. sinse the beginning constantly spreading, mutating for survival, infecting all but a select few with imunity. there is no vaccine, no cure, just as with AIDS, the only way to fight it is education. however fighting it is an almost hopeless proposition since as with genes it is usually passed from parent to offspring. Introduced to children who are most impressionable. Places like camps in that video honestly scare the crap out of me.
If you choose to believe in god because to you it makes sense, good, you've made up your own mind. I strongly disagree with the teaching to beieve in something there is no evidence or proof of as a truth. the constant need for people to make everyone believe exactly as they do. Whats wrong with raising everyone as freethinkers, allowed to make up their own minds?
Quote from: Ellissa Ray on September 18, 2006, 05:15:49 PM
I view religion as a virus, non biological, in the form of a meem. sinse the beginning constantly spreading, mutating for survival, infecting all but a select few with imunity.
Exactly! The sad thing is followers don't seem to care that these huge entities view them as being expendable... simple cannon fodder to spread the infection. Ironically, it always reminds me of the myth about selling your soul to the devil in exchange for protection and power.
It's not just religions of course, you see it in nationalities, political parties, idealogies, etc.
QuoteWhats wrong with raising everyone as freethinkers, allowed to make up their own minds?
It threatens the survival of the thought-form entities. Individuals... REAL individuals... are so incredibly rare and valuable and... hunted.
Quote from: Brianna on September 18, 2006, 08:38:35 AM
Or, in the words of my favorite philosopher, H.L. Menchen...
"I believe that religion, generally speaking, has been a curse to mankind - that its modest and greatly overestimated services on the ethical side have been more than overcome by the damage it has done to clear and honest thinking."
This will probably only create more posts with no resolution on the topic, but let me try to explain what it's like to church-going Christians when people say stuff like this. Very few analogies are close-to-perfect, and this one certainly is not since I only thought of it in the last 5 minutes. I should probably qualify that I'm not trying to make a "good argument" or trying to change anyone's minds about anything; actually I really try to respect people regardless of what they believe about God, and usually don't talk about Christian faith or religion unless other people bring it up first. I'm just trying to illustrate my first reaction to comments like this.
It seems that many things in life are a two-edged sword: the sharper and more powerful it is, the more it can be used for good - or bad - actions. In that sense, let me compare God to sex. There are people out there who have little interest in sex, as hard as that can be to imagine. Some of these people have never had an orgasm. So what if one of these people came up to you and said... "wanting to engage in sex is a curse. look at how many lives have been wrecked by rape. look at all the children who have been emotionally scarred by pedophiles and the child porn industry. think about how much more constructive time teens would have if they weren't thinking about sex all the time. people are apt to lose all sense of reason when engaging in sex. furthermore - engaging in sex is just increasing the world population at an alarming rate! we're ruining the world's oil reserves and rainforests because of this!"
and then, you have the gall to say... "but, sex is a wonderful and beautiful thing! celebrating sex is one of the most blessed and enjoyable things in the world! and....... without sex you wouldn't be here!"
Go ahead and poke holes in my analogy; it's the overall reaction I'm trying to get across.
Joseph
Quote from: Joseph on September 18, 2006, 09:05:11 PM
This will probably only create more posts with no resolution on the topic, but let me try to explain what it's like to church-going Christians when people say stuff like this. Very few analogies are close-to-perfect, and this one certainly is not since I only thought of it in the last 5 minutes. I should probably qualify that I'm not trying to make a "good argument" or trying to change anyone's minds about anything; actually I really try to respect people regardless of what they believe about God, and usually don't talk about Christian faith or religion unless other people bring it up first. I'm just trying to illustrate my first reaction to comments like this.
It seems that many things in life are a two-edged sword: the sharper and more powerful it is, the more it can be used for good - or bad - actions. In that sense, let me compare God to sex. There are people out there who have little interest in sex, as hard as that can be to imagine. Some of these people have never had an orgasm. So what if one of these people came up to you and said... "wanting to engage in sex is a curse. look at how many lives have been wrecked by rape. look at all the children who have been emotionally scarred by pedophiles and the child porn industry. think about how much more constructive time teens would have if they weren't thinking about sex all the time. people are apt to lose all sense of reason when engaging in sex. furthermore - engaging in sex is just increasing the world population at an alarming rate! we're ruining the world's oil reserves and rainforests because of this!"
and then, you have the gall to say... "but, sex is a wonderful and beautiful thing! celebrating sex is one of the most blessed and enjoyable things in the world! and....... without sex you wouldn't be here!"
Go ahead and poke holes in my analogy; it's the overall reaction I'm trying to get across.
Joseph
I agree not because I am a church-going christian, but because it is one of the most intelligent answers that I have read.
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Hey everyone,
Cindianna_Jones,
Quote from: Cindianna_Jones
Elizabeth, I'm still trying to figure out how the theory of entropy figures in to the organization of life. I'm still not sure how the two get along. Entropy marches along grandly as we see it now. I love to discuss the philosophy of it all with those who will talk.
The entropy of a system is a measure of the disorder of the system. Entropy of all systems always increases, meaning a higher state of disorder. Think of it like a cup of marbles, the top half all white marbles and the bottom half all black marbles. This is an ordered system. However, cover it and shake it up and it becomes disordered. The white mixes with the black marbles. How mixed they are is the entropy of the cup. And even though there is a probability that you could shake it and all the white marbles will end up on top and all the black marbles will be on the bottom, entropy says this will never happen. Now add 150 other colors of marbles and shake the marbles enough times and you will see some really interesting and complex patterns will be formed.
The particles of matter in our universe are no different. Life on this planet is a result of entropy. Enough particles got mixed together at just the right time for form complex proteins that became the carbon life forms we are today. But it could never happen if all the particles in the universe stayed together in ordered systems. Eventually the particles that make us up will become more disordered and the particles we are made of will cease to exist as the natural atomic decay of all particles occurs. All because of entropy.
Hope that helps.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Elizabeth on September 18, 2006, 10:52:14 PM
The particles of matter in our universe are no different. Life on this planet is a result of entropy. Enough particles got mixed together at just the right time for form complex proteins that became the carbon life forms we are today. But it could never happen if all the particles in the universe stayed together in ordered systems. Eventually the particles that make us up will become more disordered and the particles we are made of will cease to exist as the natural atomic decay of all particles occurs. All because of entropy.
While I accept that complex proteins may have formed as you suggested, it is a huge leap to bring these proteins to life. Furthermore, the further evolution of these proteins to complex lifeforms seems to fly in the face the second law of thermodynamics and the idea that things are becoming more disordered with time. I belong to no organized religion but don't like the idea that happenstance and entrophy has led to life as we know it. It is most likely that both organized religion and science are light-years from the truth of creation, both hobbled by their own limitations.
Dawn
Quote from: DawnL on September 18, 2006, 11:19:10 PM
Quote from: Elizabeth on September 18, 2006, 10:52:14 PM
The particles of matter in our universe are no different. Life on this planet is a result of entropy. Enough particles got mixed together at just the right time for form complex proteins that became the carbon life forms we are today. But it could never happen if all the particles in the universe stayed together in ordered systems. Eventually the particles that make us up will become more disordered and the particles we are made of will cease to exist as the natural atomic decay of all particles occurs. All because of entropy.
While I accept that complex proteins may have formed as you suggested, it is a huge leap to bring these proteins to life. Furthermore, the further evolution of these proteins to complex lifeforms seems to fly in the face the second law of thermodynamics and the idea that things are becoming more disordered with time. I belong to no organized religion but don't like the idea that happenstance and entrophy has led to life as we know it. It is most likely that both organized religion and science are light-years from the truth of creation, both hobbled by their own limitations.
Dawn
And for this reason, I will say that I just don't know. I do believe that it is within our abiltiy to learn and understand however. When I look at the complexities of the universe, I fully expect that we will continue to learn how this all works. We know more than most people can fathom. We can see solar systems forming in huge nebulae. The physics describe how all that works. We live in an amazing time. Life is wonderful. At the same time, we each have power we do not understand yet. Some call it faith. But I know that power is largely untapped because we don't know how it works.
Ultimately, a group of us can't sit down and decide how the universe and life were made or how they will end. We need to keep working at it. We can learn.
Peace.
Cindi
Quote from: Joseph on September 18, 2006, 09:05:11 PM
...and then, you have the gall to say... "but, sex is a wonderful and beautiful thing! celebrating sex is one of the most blessed and enjoyable things in the world! and....... without sex you wouldn't be here!"
Go ahead and poke holes in my analogy; it's the overall reaction I'm trying to get across.
Okay, I will. :)
Actually, on first blush - this is a seductive agument. There is obviously some compontent of Christianity that sets off neurons in your mind that you find pleasurable. Mazel Tov - more power too you. Enjoy.
I would argue that Christianity is *not* something innocuous, like sex. This is not a "liking strawbery" or "liking chocolate" situation. What I am saying is that upon rational examination, in my opinion, Christianity is a destructive "Us or them" ideology.
Christianity, pro and con arguments (Brianna's opinion)
Pro-
The friendly ambience of Wednesday night family supper
Cons-
Rampant hatered of blacks (slavery justified by Christianizing), gays, transsexuals and other minorities including Arabs.
Is known to vote Republican, enthusiastically empowering, among other war crimes, the current attrocity in Iraq.
Pat Robertson, OMG
The subjegation of women
ATTEMPTING TO CHRISTIANIZE JEWS!!!! WOULD. RATHER. SHOOT. SELF.
#1. The widespread belief that God gave you an excellent mind but asks you not to use it.
I also agree that there is no difference in religion and a virus that I am able to appreciate.
Brianna
This is only my opinion but I do believe that the problem with Christianity is that Christians have forgotten that the law made all guilty before God by manifesting what is good and perfect in his sight.
Therefore the sacrifice of our Lord made that atonement as he was the lamb without spot in a spiritual sense. Only through him do we have salvation.
Because of this the gospel is to be preached to give people a hope and not to condemn. When man's sin is manifested through the law and profits the hope in Christ is to be preached as well.
Not just the condemning half of the gospel.
The great commision was to start a church in a time when there wasn't one. Not to beat everyone over the head with a Bible in a time when there are churches on almost every corner.
Even back in the law the children of Israel were told to teach these things to their families and the prophets were sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and not the unbelieving world around them.
This is just my opinion but I feel that if more churches would set their sights on building the spiritual houses of their flocks so that they can endure unto the end in an evil and perilous time they would have less time to look down a pious, judgemental nose and spew out words of hate to those who do not meet their standards.
Those who eat a catfish sandwhich and wear clothing of two or more materials look down their nose at the CD because of his skirt when a quick check of the scriptures show Aaron and Boaz wore one. When our Lord wrapped that towel around himself to wash Peter's feet he was wearing a wrap-skirt. They strain at a gnat and swallow a camel with their doctrine as they lash out at others and condemn themselves.
But that's just my opinion.
Tiffany
The belief in God, this has been a question that has confronted man for as long as man has been on this planet. There has been thousands if not millions of gods and people have died in his/her name since the beginning of time. Each group of believer's thinks they are favored by God and that they are doing his/her will.
In Christianity, Jesus had only one message, Love others as you love yourself. If all of mankind would just follow this one simple teaching how much nicer would the world be? I am a Christian and do believe in the teachings of Christ, but you know there is a lot of hypocrisy in our churches. The denominations that man has created to represent Christianity does more to push there own agendas than to validate the truth of Jesus Christ. If Christians would follow the teachings of Christ and love all people as Christ loved the Church, he was willing die for it.
People that are part of the church and begin to question the very fiber of their beliefs, sexuality or gender often find themselves an enemy of their church & then they accused of having some kind of demon in them. When if you read the Bible it says nothing of the sort, in fact the church should be reaching out in love to these people. American churches are the worst at this, if you look at the churches in Asia they not only reach out to these people groups they accept them as being the way they are. If only Americans would wake up and act like they should.
Yes there is a difference between Christianity and what Christ taught.
How few true Christians have there been?
Its about love and forgiveness.
Also you can't judge the reality of God by the actions of people I believe.
There are also some good churches more tolerant, see the links on the website
Here for example: http://www.mccchurch.org//AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home
or here: http://www.mccmanchester.co.uk/index.shtml
But you can't use individuals to prove a rule in any group.
Religion is frequently used to overpower others but also there are those who use their religion to heal and make bridges and help others.
~~ Sky
What I think you must realize is the strict dichotomy between people who believe in the tenets of Christianity and those who call themselves "Christians" because that's how they were born, because of the church to which they belong, or out of convenience.
I am a Christian by belief. I believe in God, and I believe Jesus died for me. I don't believe that God is entirely good, nor entirely bad. If one were to suppose that God created everything, then he created good and evil, and he (or she) is therefore capable of evil as well as good.
I don't know who God is. I just know that he or she is out there. I know it because I'm here. If I had to identify myself as a particular religion, I would say I am an Ecclesiastical Christian... for those who do not know, the Old Testament book of Ecclesiastes was written (supposedly) by King Solomon. It summarizes, basically, how nothing means anything, we're all going nowhere, and it really doesn't matter whether people do good or bad. Now, I have a firmly held moral and ethical code, but I did not derive it from the Bible; rather, I have derived it from my own life experience. You don't kill people. You try to treat other people like you'd like to be treated. In the words of King Solomon, though, (paraphraze): trust god, and nothing else matters. That's what I do. I know there is a god, and whether he or she is good, evil, ambivalent, whatever, it doesn't matter.
As for the people who call themselves Christians who nonetheless commit atrocities too hideous to discuss, I don't identify myself with them. So this is hardly a problem of semantics; rather, I'd opine, misplaced monikers.
Rafe
Hi all, I'm just going to jump in here and say that that trailer was one of the scariest things I HAVE EVER SEEN! It scares me to death, because this is exactly what the fundamentalists in the middle east do to their children. Ok, now to add my two cents to the discussion on god, christanity etc... For the record, I am a pagan. I believe in the old gods and goddesses. So that out of the way, I must say that the problem with organized religion is that they purpously create a seperation from god. In order to be one with the divine, you MUST have a proxy (eg. a priest, etc.) People have lost touch with the devine. People don't realize that the key is spirituality, and you don't need someone else to talk to god for you. As for the subjugation of the people by religion, well, if you look at the 2000 census IQ stats, (correct me if I'm wrong) the national average is 90 and below, from 134 and below in 1980. An ignorant population is easy to control. I don't have as much of a problem with the followers of religion as much as the religion itself. I try to be as tolerant as possible (don't shove your religion down my throat and I'm fine). The fudamentalists, such as the ones in that trailer, those are the followers that scare me, not the average christians, muslems, etc... These followers need to remember that Christ taught LOVE and TOLERANCE, not hate. Ok, I'm done ranting... sorry all... I just think that if we all practiced a little love and tolerance we'd live in a much better world....
Love you all,
Jennifer
Jesus taught that we don't need a proxy to God that all God wants is a relationship with us one on one...Father and Sons/Daughters and the path was Christ. The priests are the ones that put themselves between us and God, they like to power they have/had over the masses. In some cultures the priests don't even allow their people to read the Bible, this is the very thing that Martin Luther came against in the 1500's. A religious leader is just that a LEADER, but leaders of all major religions have used their offices to elevate their own selves and their own beliefs. As we can see by the actions in the middle-east, the true search for God is to be one with God.
Death is the final solution. It will answer everything.
If there is a god, everybody is going to hell because nobody lives like it says to live in the bible. If there is no god then people are wasting resources on BS. The money time and effort spent on religion is regodamndiculous. No pun intended.....
When the black plague hit in Europe they hung women because they thought they were witches and causing the problem. That order to kill came from the church. The church is very powerful. Dont underestimate the enemy. It breeds fear and teaches that anything out of the ordinary is bad.
If you where to look at Hitler and the Nazi party it was not much different then any other church organization as far as what it taught. They where bigots against jews, gays, and anything not of the Arian race.
To be a christian you would have to shun buddhists and hindus and catholics. The bible teaches that you should not worship a false idol. Well.......a buddha is a false idol. The virgin mary statue is a false idol as well.
The more I think about this, the more I realize that it all depends on where you were born and what you were taught and what you believe in. The passion of your beliefs, and how strong you feel about them can make you radical. Muslims are so programmed they are willing to die for their beliefs. Think about all the wars that have been waged over time. They teach you about god in the military so that you can feel its ok to blast the enemy because god is on your side. With that belief, its o.k. to keep hell packed with fresh souls. I think the human race is very open to suggestion and programming. Not enough people have the brain power to stop and think about what is real and what is not.
I really think TG's are smarter then the avgerage population. I have a theory as to why. If a person has a problem, and they spend a lifetime contemplating, reading, thinking, analyzing, and troubleshooting a certain issue within themselves, their IQ is only going to grow. With a higher IQ you are able to reason better and think outside the box. You are able to ask the hard questions and seek the truth. Because the truth of being Transgendered is so complicated with no real answer, the brain is forced to think harder searching for that final answer. You become smarter and smarter. Why is it that many TS are in technical fields or programmers, or are musicians? It takes a lot of brain power to do these things. One must have a certain thought process to find a bad transistor amongst a thousand possibilities. One must have an incredible amount of brain powert to sort through thousands of lines of code and keep things in perspective. One must also have a high IQ to create beautiful music and learn a musical instrument. I'm not saying everybody that does these things is TG'd but years of dealing with and seeking an answer to a problem that nobody has the answer to has created a race of humans that is smarter then the avg person.
To me, religion is oudated and should be ousted along with unions. They had their place in history and the human race needs to move on to bigger and better things. We need to rid ourselves of money and fear of god and take the next step off of this planet and combine our assets and resources and work together as a race of humans and better mankind. Religious beliefs will keep that from happening. It seperates the human species to the point of killing each other.
I read the Iranian presidents speech. It was brilliant. If he was being truthful about not wanting to build a nuke I feel he is right in most of what he said. Don't get me wrong, I am patriotic and I love my country and would die to defend it but that guy actualy makes sence to me. Then again he's muslim and a radical and would die for what he believes in. The point he made about us is correct though in the fact that we use nukes to bully the world. We have them, they dont and if they built them then they are in trouble. Who are we to tell them what to do? Leave them alone and if they jack with us then get mean with them. Until then stop worrying about it. It boils down to the truth over time and that truth is oil. If they would have spent all that money developing new technology that did not require oil then oil would not even be an issue. Instead they have thrown billions of dollars and burned billions of gallons of oil to get more oil. How stupid is that? I don't know I'm just kinda rambling now....but religion is the root of all evil.
Ok, I HAVE to respond to this thread.
First of all, I wanted to comment on the whole entropy/laws of thermodynamics thing. With respect to biology, these concepts do NOT apply. They correspond to physics. Specifically, they correspond to Newtonian physics, which science has long ago established is an incredibly oversimplified concept of matter.
For example, entropy explains things like osmosis and diffusion, where high concentrations of one substance move to lower concentrations. This breaks down when you get into biology. For example, salt water fish. By the law of osmosis, those fish should be dead cause all the water will seep right out of them because of the high salt content in the surrounding water. But what ends up happening is that the cells of salt-water fish function is such a way to lock in the water, thereby defeating osmosis.
Regarding religion itself... A lot of the discussion has focused primarily on christianity, however I see a fundamental flaw that is common in ALL relgions. It is just that some religions have more of a.... control buffer... I guess. The problem with religion has been stated by a couple people, I think, in that religion, by its very definition, discourages critical thinking. Evidence? Who needs it! The world works in THIS way and that's all there is to it! God told me so! And when asked for evidence, they hold up a book or a plate of noodles or whatever and say, "This is all the proof I need!" Not only that, it is a point of PRIDE that people maintain their "unshakable belief" no matter how truckloads of evidence are dropped on their heads.
There is an astounding, astonishing, overwhelming amount of evidence that, for example, the earth is NOT flat. So what do we have? The Flat Earth Society. We have a similar amount of evidence regarding the age of the earth, yet people are still convinced it is only 6000 years old. I saw a video clip the other day of someone who honestly believed that the Grand Canyon was created during the great flood, even though it is outright against the laws of physics for a chasm that massive to be carved out of the earth's crust by 1.3 months of rain. Ignoring of course that there isn't enough water on the entire planet to coat the world in a giant ocean.
Now, there are tons of people who take religion for what it is *supposed* to be. A moral and spiritual guide. They'll look at, say, the bible, and take it's contents with a grain of salt, especially given the amount of translations and revisions it has undergone. And that is perfectly ok. Insert "don't push your religion on me and I won't push mine on you" arguments here. But it is INEVITABLE that, because people are encouraged to NOT think about what they are reading/taught, slowly but surely people will start taking things to an extreme. Not everyone, but enough stupid people, who have grown up under more and more fanatical believers, until you reach a critical mass where you have people slaughtering each other in an attempt to "prove" that they are correct. It happened for centuries with christanity. It's happening right now with Islam.
And this is all just a nutshell of what I could be saying. There are a multitude of elements of human nature that come into play, such as the desire to be right after you've comitted yourself to something. Or comparing religious doctrines that encourage/demand conversion of others, by violence if necessary, with doctrines that take a live and let live approach. But I don't want to drone on and one and put everyone asleep.
The final point I will make, and this is pretty much the seed from which grows all my anti-religion arguments, is that when you involk the name of God as justification for your actions, you are capable of ANYTHING, even if that involves wholesale genocide.
Ilsa
Exactly what religion teaches doesn't bother me so much. For the MOST part, people instinctively pick the more noble parts which resonate with them, thankfully ignoring the "kill all the unbelievers" rhetoric. Mostly.
No, what truly saddens me is the cruelty of parents inflicting their religion upon their intellectually defenseless children. Teaching innocent children that there's an all-seeing, angry god sitting up in the sky watching everything you do who will burn and torture you in a fire for all of eternity if you displease him is... just unfathomable to me.
I mean I honestly can't think of a more effective way to screw up a kid for life. Well.. TSism comes close, but STILL.
And worse, the cycle repeats, because now THAT child grows into a parent who threatens his/her kids with eternal torture. And so on. And so on. That fear of a pain and torture perpetuates the abusive cycle. People so rarely have the courage to say ENOUGH! and finish developing into self-determined, ethically mature beings.
And I think that's very sad :(
Quote from: ilsa on September 20, 2006, 02:02:25 PM
The problem with religion has been stated by a couple people, I think, in that religion, by its very definition, discourages critical thinking. Evidence? Who needs it! The world works in THIS way and that's all there is to it! God told me so! And when asked for evidence, they hold up a book or a plate of noodles or whatever and say, "This is all the proof I need!" Not only that, it is a point of PRIDE that people maintain their "unshakable belief" no matter how truckloads of evidence are dropped on their heads.
We didn't know much about the concept of cognative disonance until the 60s. The pychological researcher that coined the term was studying a group of people convinced that the world was going to end on a certian date. What was facinating about his findings was as the day came and went, their cult beliefs became even stronger.
It seems amazing to me that in 2006 we are able make computers that use other universes for computing power. We have amazing technology because of our vast understanding of the universe we live in. Yet - we continue to ingender this childish belief in a magic book of rules.
Quote from: ilsa on September 20, 2006, 02:02:25 PM
The final point I will make, and this is pretty much the seed from which grows all my anti-religion arguments, is that when you involk the name of God as justification for your actions, you are capable of ANYTHING, even if that involves wholesale genocide.
I heartily agree. Until we evolve from this need for "Gods and masters" to control us, evil will continue to be done in the name of good.
Just for the record statues of both Mary and Buddha are venerated not worshipped.
That is held in respect, they are not (supposed to be) seen as god.
Even in Hinduism its the spirit of statues that is worshipped. And even then all gods and goddesses are aspects of one.
We (us AND them) should all try to live with the reported teachings of peace and tolerance I think.
That when understood is the greatest gift any religion could leave for us.
X
For much of my life I've been an atheist or agnostic. During this time I've explored various religions including paganism, Buddhism, Sufi, and most recently my religion of heritage, Judaism. I still have no idea whether G-d truly exists or not, I suppose I'm likely to find out someday. :)
I am continually saddened at the things people do in G-d's name and the way people in power use religion to control the masses.
Today is the first day of rosh hashanah, L'shanah tova (happy new year)
zythyra
First:
I suspect anybody who says they 'know God' or 'know [insert messiah here]'. I believe that an omnipotent, omnipresent entity is fundamentally unknowable by us. I do not believe that said entity talks to us in the sense of we get a phone call or telegram to our 'heart' or 'soul'. Said entity may celebrate that we live, but I can't imagine said entity caring whether I or You have a Rolls Royce (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1533448,00.html), being much more interested in slamming together subatomic particles to make a massive sun explode and produce heavy elements...
So where is 'god'. Some were asking how life and us overcame entropy to be endowed with order. I think 'god' can be seen in the six numbers (http://www.firstscience.com/site/articles/rees.asp) that, set just so, allow for the chance of the order we see to arise from the chaos of a big bang.
Years ago, on a Phil Donahue show, the guests were Carl Sagan and Stephen Jay Gould. The producer of the show also made sure that around half the audience were creationists. Carl spoke of 'billions and billions of years ago', and Stephen spoke of evolutionary theory (meaning 'fact'). One Christian lady got up and shamed them for suggesting that God did not create man 6,000 years ago as written in the Bible, etc., etc., etc.
Carl Sagan replied, "Compared to your god who fashioned the world and everything in it in seven days, I think a god that, billions and billions of years ago set up the conditions for the universe much as we set up a complex domino maze out of simple elements, and then set it running with a big bang that ultimately led to us being able to contemplate his handiwork, is far more magnificent and wonderful." The minority of the audience cheered loudly, and the christian lady had a look of utter hatred on her face.
Second. Susan, that video you posted...
-OH!-
-MY!-
-GOD!...
I know those kind of people...
"Compared to your god who fashioned the world and everything in it in seven days, I think a god that, billions and billions of years ago set up the conditions for the universe much as we set up a complex domino maze out of simple elements, and then set it running with a big bang that ultimately led to us being able to contemplate his handiwork, is far more magnificent and wonderful." - karen
While I understand this point, the more and more I study evolution the more I am convinced that God is just a psychological construct of the fear innate in the human condition and thar evolution is responsible for the beautiful world we inhabit.
I liked this topic and have checked on it a little, so in some sense whether we have a god or not? When we die then each one of us will ultimately find out if we have a God, afterlife, reincarnation, damnation, etc? would that be prudent to condiser this theory that we will not know until maybe our lives end in this world? Then again who knows maybe existences continue and spiritually we go on and on?? Hmmmm
So much to ponder
Quote from: Brianna on October 14, 2006, 03:06:57 PM
While I understand this point, the more and more I study evolution the more I am convinced that God is just a psychological construct of the fear innate in the human condition and thar evolution is responsible for the beautiful world we inhabit.
Perhaps Mr. Sagan shared your point, but when facing down a roomful of hateful creationists, he had the flash of insight to choose those words that would make his point and shut the creationists in the audience up at the same time.
Another point I was trying to get across is that whether there is an entity that fits the HUMAN definition of a god or not, IF there is, this entity certainly doesn't match our construct of what such a being should be like. Why do we use 'He' and 'Father' to describe this entity? For all I know, god IS those six cosmological constants that make this universe capable of reversing entropy and leading to us being able to contemplate our own demise and then dream up a 'way out' where we don't really completely cease to exist...
But if there IS god as commonly described, I'm sure he won't take exception to my little tirade above, because I actually used the (feminized) brain he gave me to reason it out, rather than just parroting someone else. To me, choosing wisely is using wisdom to choose. If I come up with a good argument for the non-existence of god and, after my death, am confronted with him and the wrongness of my choice, is he REALLY going to throw me in hell for all eternity? There's no verifiable proof the afterlife exists, no repeatable experiment that conclusively proves the hypothesis, 'There is a spiritual afterlife after you're dead.'
I'm by no means attacking anyone who has a conventional spirituality. Please, worship (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=worship) as you wish, and I will celebrate your spirituality. And allow me to worship as I wish, seeking god in the veins of a leaf, or sunrise through a forest mist, or the electric potential that exists between dissimilar metals...
Mmmm.. Gotta get ready for support group, and I haven't decided what to wear tonight ;)
Karen
More fun and endless debate...what more could one ask of a Forum topic???
I personally believe there was/is a creator. My mind cannot comprehend the complexitivity of the universe (multiverse?), so it seeks order where possible. This belief in a creator may be valid, or only a construct to attempt to impose order over the chaos...in either case, it is my belief.
As to proving whether God exists...it ain't gonna happen. Even if he walked up to one of us on the street and said Hi we wouldn't believe him...yes, I used masculine pronouns because the rules of English grammar state that if the gender is unknown the masculine form should be used (at least that is what I remember from 7th grade grammar, sexist though it is). And, for the record, anything powerful enough to create matter from nothing and order from chaos is not going to be limited by a small thing like gender, nor is it likely to care what it is called.
All of the major religions have several teachings in common (Don't lie, Don't steal, Don't kill, Treat other people as you would like to be treated). Whether this is divinely inspired, or grew from a need to establish rules so a society could develop, you decide. The problem with most of them is that they took these simple rules and expanded them to the point that rape, torture, killing and genocide all become perfectly acceptable under the right circumstances...usually to "unbelievers". This leads to everything from suicide bombers to blowing up abortion clinics...fanatics of any persuasion are, by definition, insane.
And there is a surprise waiting for some of the Sunday morning church goers who think they are so holy...the Bible states that not everyone who claims to be a Christian really is (Matthew 7:21-23, Luke 13:25-27). In fact, it says that Jesus tells them "I never knew you"
We see examples of those who follow the true way every day. They are the ones feeding the hungry, healing the sick and helping their neighbors. Whether or not they go to a place of worship, or identify themselves as part of a religion, makes no difference.
And, just so you'll know, God does want you to have a Rolls Royce...he owns the company and can use the cash. The Vatican needs a paint job and the Southern Baptists have cut into his liquor profits, not to mention the cost of bomb vests for the Islamic Jihad is going up every day.
.......Laurie
There's no question man uses God and the devil to guilt and scare people into doing things they want us to do. It happens all the time. And I believe religious fanatics are more dangerous than mass murders. Mass murders have killed less people.
I don't believe the Bible is the word of God, there's too many contradictions. And I don't believe it was written under divine inspiration, there's too many different versions. It may be the most abused book on the planet. However there are many good concepts in the Bible and good people know this and use them to live a better life. Bad people use the Bible to hate, scorn, ostracize and punish those who don't subscribe to their intolerant beliefs. And they abuse the Bible to give them permission to act like that.
I believe in life after death. I've read too many similar stories that point to this. And I believe in a higher spiritual being. That helps explain things like infinity and how the universe was created.
One belief I adopted by choice is an extension of the idea that when we die our life passes before us. It doesn't just pass before us. We live it all over but instead of living our life, we live the lives of all the people we've affected in our life. We live the pains and joys our existence had on them. If we punched them in the face, we'd feel the physical and emotional pain that punch caused as well as the pain experienced by everyone connected to that incident. If we helped someone who had been punched and gave them care and comfort, we would feel the love and appreciation which resulted from our actions.
I've chosen to adopt this belief because it makes me think twice before doing something and in the long run helps me make better decisions about dealing with fellow human beings.
That's where I am in life.
Greetings. I know it has been a very long time since i've posted, but i do enjoy coming on and reading the comments. I first would like to say that the many feelings toward the christian faith are justified. In this thread my intent is not to minimize your feelings toward the christian faith but rather to offer a new perspective of what is central to the christian faith. As i've read through these comments I have come across many comments that I feel misrepresent Christianity. They are as follows:
1.[Christianity] is about love and forgiveness.- This is not the central teachings of Jesus, the main focus of the teachings of Jesus was to reconcile man to God. It is out of response to this reconcilation that we choose to become good people (to love and forgive)
2.To be a christian you would have to shun buddhists and hindus and catholics.-maybe i'm missing your sarcasm but Catholics are Christians. I may also be missing your point but I don't believe that being Christian means you have to shun people of other faiths. I'm not saying you have to agree with what they believe but by no means do you shun them. If this is being taught in the christian faith I would argue that it is not the proper out working of the Christian Gospel.
3. There was a comment made that Christians justify slavery. True the Christian church has, but an important thing to realize is that they were the leading group of people working to abolish slavery. Agian I would argue that the use of scripture in this case was a misunderstanding of the text. I'm not justifing what they did. When we take such situations as examples we must look also in the context of time.
4. Another comment was the Bible has been used to oppress people. I hesitate in what i'm about to say and maybe I only say it due to some frustration I recieved while reading some responses. If we look at the most recent century, which has been noted as the bloodiest, it was not done in the name of Christianity. It was done under the belief of no God, or Athiesm. I know this comment may come as offence to many. Please forgive me, my intent is not to insult people on the thread. If one looks back we can find traces of Fredrick Niztche's writtings, atheist philosphy, in the philosphy of Hitler, Stalin, Mussilini. This point is made only to illustrate that pain and suffering comes from both the view of a God or a view of no God.
5.religion is the man made costruct by which that abuse is propelled. Yes religion does propell abuse, but it has also done much in the way of healing throughout the worlds history. An example of this I would like to take from my social work textbook. Before humanity decieded to bring in the role of social workers it was seen that the priests, shamons, elders, medicine men etc... would be seen as the ones who brought healing in the community. My intent in saying this is that religion has done both good and evil. I would suggest that it would be impossible for religion not to do harm becaues of who is involved, humanity. Humanity causes suffering. Lets try to pin point some of the blame on the people within the institution.
When it comes to the christians as seen in the video I would also say that this is an incorrect teaching of the Christian message. I understand that this has not been a polite response and it may offend many people. This is not my intent rather it is to bring clarity to many misunderstandings of the christian faith so that people may discuss the impact of religion on a new and different level.
James
When I was a little girl I remember sitting in church listening to the preacher preach about Jesus coming into the world to save man and to bring him back to God.
Since He is the Son of God and holy He is the only one that could make that sort of sacrifice for our sins. That gave Him all authority and thereby He could have mercy on those who love Him. They would be saved by His grace.
That was in the days prior to all of the preaching about worldly gain that is on TV and in many churches today. They didn't preach about this world.
The sermons I heard back then all reflected Jesus. Who He is and what He did to fulfill all that was written about Him in the laws and prophets. Kind of like how the moon reflects the light of the sun at night the lesser light of the Son came into a darkened world to reflect the greater light of God.
Like Noah; He made us an ark, or church in which we could escape the wrath of God and the water, or word and Spirit of God would cause us to be carried above the flood of ungodly waters, or teachings of man that loves this world and it's riches.
These are the sermons I no longer hear anymore so I don't blame most people for no longer believing and it's no wonder that the word of God seems like a bunch of contradictions when the spiritual things are no longer taught. Buying and selling the word of God will not save anyone.
I hope that I have not offended anyone but that is what I have noticed over the years. There is a difference in preaching Christ and this world and telling people they are going to hell is not preaching Christ. Neither is telling people that Jesus died to make them rich in this world. Those riches are the spiritual things in the word of God where we see the glory of God in the scriptures declaring His Son.
May God bless you.
Tiffany
I am a Christian, in fact i am a christian missionary working in a Islamic country that has been torn by war. No I am not here to convert everyone to my way of thinking (otherwise they may all have to be TS) LOL I am here to share God's love to everyone who needs it and in whatever way I can. I believe their is a God and I believe the religious community abuses God's word and I cried at that trailer of the Jesus camp and I believe God cried as well. Yes, because I am TS I have to leave my area of work because the majority of those I work with will not accept me and may even harm me or my wife--BUT that doesn't mean they are right and God still loves them and so must I.
I believe there are many ways to God as God is greater than anything we can makeup so it is not for me to judge your way but to choose my way and treat all with the love of GOD.
Sorry for spouting but that clip hurt!!
mary
Christians have hurt me. Christians disowned me. Christians made me hate myself before I could think for myself. Christians told me "god" doesn't make mistakes. Christians told me if I was supposed to be a woman the Christian "god" would have made me that way.
Christians indoctrinated me with 12 years of secular schooling. Christians put propaganda in my head that made me hate gays, Catholics, blacks and Muslims by 6th grade. Christians tried to make me think what was moral in life was what other Christians told me.
Christians are turning the country I love into a theocracy. Christians are willingfully ignorant of the 600,000 people they have murdered by proxy in Iraq. Christians talk about Muslim life as if it were worthless. Christians can't talk about the war they support rationally.
Christians are the most judgmental and selectively loving group of hypocrites on the planet, in my opinion.
Just as some have the belief that Christian is awesome and altruistic, I have the belief it is evil, destructive and something that must be fought tooth and nail until it can behave more humbly.
I will not argue that my own experience with Christians has probably been far more negative than most. But, if I were still a Christian – I could not ignore the mind "god" gave me to examine the Christian faith empirically. I could not ignore my common sense that tells me what is good and what is evil and excuse the atrocities I see them commit.
Bri
It is true that Christians have hurt many. It seems that many have not only no longer fear God but also have forgotten that they too are saved by his grace and are commanded to walk humbly with God.
I have been hurt by them and cast out as a heretic. In some churches I have been openly ridiculed and used as an "example."
The thing I find fascinating about being a Christian is that the Lord would die for my sins and save me by his grace. Not because I have money or am better than others but because he loves me. I guess if everyone loved me it would be easy to love. That commandment to love those who hate and persecute you sure is hard when it is supposed to be one of his people. Kind of like his own crucifying him.
Bri; I feel so sorry that Christians have hurt you hon. It's not good when those who are supposed to be the Lord's people use his word for hate and belittlement rather than to give hope to someone like us that the word condemns. After all, the word, or law makes all guilty and they have forgotten that they too are saved by the same grace that we are.
May God bless you hon.
Tiffany
Tiffany2,
Respectfully, I want to strongly ask you to not give me "god's" blessing. What I want is "it's" folowers to allow me a life without being subjected to beliefs I don't subscribe to.
Bri
Brianna;
I am so sorry if I aggravated you. That was not my intention. I do hope that you will forgive me.
I hope that you will not lump us all together though as I too have been the subjet of ridicule and strongly oppose many things preached and taught in churches today. I am one that does try to use the word to give hope rather than to condemn. Even though sometimes my wording doesn't come out right.
Once again; please forgive me.
Tiffany
Quote from: Brianna on October 16, 2006, 11:55:23 AMChristians told me if I was supposed to be a woman the Christian "god" would have made me that way.
One told me exactly the same thing, and that person is now no longer on speaking terms with me. It hurts to hear it said, but in a very real sense you and I are already that way, just correcting a physical mismatch.
When trying to converse with this person, I felt like letting loose all the feelings of hatred for the nastier things that people have done over the centuries. I felt like condemning all religion as a danger to humanity.
Yet on the other hand, on some of the boards I post to there are religious people who know about my change and are okay with it. One is even a self proclaimed gay redneck. :D They belong to churches that don't discourage people to think for themselves, and they're wonderful people.
So in my own experience I've seen a big divide between the closed minded bible thumpers and the kind hearted folks who believe because they truly believe. And isn't that what a certain spiritual leader really taught?
(If it makes any difference, I consider myself an atheist but have an agnostic view on the possibility of an afterlife.)
Grouping millions of people together with a label and hatred is terribly intolerant and ignorant in my opinion.
beth
Quote from: Brianna on October 16, 2006, 02:59:23 PM
Tiffany2,
Respectfully, I want to strongly ask you to not give me "god's" blessing. What I want is "it's" folowers to allow me a life without being subjected to beliefs I don't subscribe to.
Bri
Bri, only you can allow yourself to live that life. You can succumb to their opression or you can walk away and be yourself. It's up to you. Many of us have allowed ourselves to be prisoners of a myopic, intolerant and uneducated society, myself included. When you gain the strength and courage to stand alone you will find these people have no control over your life. I used to think the world had to change in order for me to be happy. I now know I had to change in order to live in peace. The only life we can control is our own. The life you live is in your hands. Focus on what makes you happy and follow your heart.
My so called best friend: "Your a man, God made you a man...."
Me: "No, god made me what I am and your going to have to learn to deal with it"
Him: "Dude, your a man, you were born a man and will allways be a man in his eyes. He is perfect and never makes mistakes"
Me: "Really, if hes so all seeing and perfect, why did he make me this way, If hes perfect then Im not a mistake of nature andthere fore I am what I am and your going to have to deal with it."
Him: "You are a man and its only those (Bleeped) hormones your takeing that are makeing you think this way... youve had allot of tramatic experiances... you need help... you are a man" *Tries handing me a bible*
Me: *Sighs* "I have my own thankyou, and Ive read it, have you? It dosnt say anything about people like me.... if your such a good christian love your nahbor and your friends, stop trying to force your ill directed oppinions on me.... I dont force mine on you"
Hes nolonger my socalled best friend, and looseing him is something I will regret for a long time, but I cant be around him anymore til he grows up..... Hes a Roman Catholic to the core, even been to rome on multiple ocasions on pilgramage to see the pope.... *sighs*
If God exists, he does not make mistakes. He allows them to happen. And for those who doubt this, help them recall the innumerable people who are born with visible birth defects. We also know about birth defects in the brain. Whether we are the result of a brain defect or not is up for grabs. I know I was born with a brain that is different than most. I prefer to not think of it as a defect but a wondrous thing that has given me so much to learn and see. Who can honestly say they have lived life from both sides? I can. There have been some tough times. But I've had a life that has been rich and full.
There are many very faithful and religious people who have reached out and accepted me in this life. To them I relish their thoughtfulness, faith, and charity. For the others....their's isn't my problem to solve. All I can do is to try and protect the lowly, the misunderstood, and down trodden.
For religious organizations that yield the power of their might in unrighteousness.... look out! Their god is not a happy one.
Cindi
I am a baptised Mormon, in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
While it is true that there are many good folks out there who believe in some form of god, deity, sun, moon, or what ever, I'm afraid that I can't be counted amongst them. I am not a religious person and I do not subscribe to any. Personally I believe that 'religions' were invented/conjured up to explain those things that man did not understand and they developed from there, as the only evidence out there is based on the word of men/women.
I firmly believe that you do not need to be religious to live your life in a way that would be considered 'good'. I treat everyone equally with respect and while I don't love everyone and embrace them, I am friendly with them no matter how distasteful they themselves may be to the extent that my own moral convictions allow. To preach that you must be religious to live a good life is preposterous and somewhat typical.
While I understand that there are many who need to have a reason as to why they exist, an explanation as to why they are on this earth and the comfort knowing that there is something to look forward to after their death, I do not, and I am quite happy with my lot in life and the fact that I too will die. I simply hope that I will be fondly remembered by those who knew me.
I can see where Bri is so hash on religions as her personal experience with them has lets say been less than favourable and I applaud her for having the courage to speak out against those who have done her wrong, whether they were religious or not. Too often we see religious wrong doing covered up, explained away as an anomaly, however it persists. The disgusting events that have taken place in several religious faiths where children have been molested and sexually assaulted is repulsive and yet their crimes were covered up, priests were ferreted away until they were uncovered for all the world to see. I can imagine what would have happened had they not been revealed.
Yes these are exceptions and yes there are many other exceptions but these people preached the word of god without a fear of retribution as those who covered their crimes up. I see no reason for the need for a god, but I can understand the need for those to believe that their is something out there that is guiding their life and the comfort they feel knowing that there that their god provides a reason for everything that happens.
For me religions are more trouble than they are worth, but then that's just my own opinion.
Steph
It is not against the Christian doctrine to ask questions. I went through 3 years of hating God, rallying against Christianity and exploring other options, including Buddhism and Wicca. I often wonder why I was made the way I was, why I have to go through the torture of losing the people I love just to be myself, why I have to deal with so much hate and ignorance from the world. God still loves me. That I know intuitively. And I feel that there is a reason for everything, even if we don't understand it right now. Bri, I am so sorry that people proclaiming to be Christians hurt you so deeply. I have had the same experience with many people, but I tend to judge the person for the person, not for what he/she believes. Just because someone proclaims him/herself as a Christian, it does not mean he/she embodies the tenets set forth by the Christian faith. I am a Christian myself, but I make mistakes, too.
Keep questioning, babe. It is questioning that keeps us healthy and alive.
Rafe
Wow... what a thread! I have no real facts to add to this debate and am not qualified to discuss philosophy, physics, biology or theology on the level of many posts before mine. All that I would like to add is an observation or two and possibly an opinion.
This forum was created to support a group of people who arguably comprise only a single digit percentage of the total population. The Wiki page identifies six separate categories of the TG community with various sub-sets under those. We are open minded enough to recognize that there is a multitude of individual reasons/motivations that define us as Transgender.
I do not see the same willingness to acknowledge or accept that there could be an exponentially greater number of sub-sets used to define those that likely comprise more than 50% of the population. I am speaking of those who profess some sort of belief / adherence to one religion or another, be it Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Pagan, Five Pecks of Rice Taoism, etc. What I have read is a tendency to group everyone under one broad brush and then assign a very narrow definition to all. In other words, our open mindedness seems to be entirely absent in this regard.
I find this to be true mostly in the strongest anti-Christian posts but that is probably due to the fact that I am one myself. My overall experience with Christians (both Catholic and Protestant) is completely opposite of those described above. I do not have enough experience with Hindus, Muslims, etc. to be able to effectively counter anything said but my limited interactions have also been good (I've never met anyone who practices Five Pecks of Rice Taoism). Obviously, I'm speaking exclusively in terms of religion for all groups identified.
My only point is that I don't believe it is accurate or fair to condemn Christians in the manner expressed. The negatives ascribed to them/us would be better placed against one or more specific denominations although that is likely still too large a group to be narrowly defined. I do agree with what has been attributed to the "human" side of religion. We tend to screw up over time anything we get our hands on due to greed for power, money, influence, etc.
My opinion only. I don't have a dog in this hunt as it matters not to me what you feel as long as you do not insist that I believe the same or that I am somehow inferior if I don't.
Maybe I'll go check out the politics thread now.
Satin
I personally believe that the word of God is a two-way street kind of like how it is referred to a double-edged sword and the blessings and cursings of the law given by Moses.
The Bible says that which makes manifest is light. Without light we would not know what darkness is. Without darkness we would not know what light is.
Since the word of God reveals the thoughts and intents of the heart, I believe it is the heart of man that is revealed to God by how we live and think.
Greed is made known when the poor are ignored by the wealthy that have more than enough to help them.
The lust for power is made known when someone passes up a job that is higher paying in a position of subjection to have one that is lower paying in authority.
A judgemental attitude is made known by a person having a little knowledge in the word of God and using it to condemn rather than edify and exhort. It is also when they forget they are not perfect either and judge others.
Self righteousness is made known when there are those in the world that have infirmities or differences that show openly being judged by those who sins are hidden.
Without us the thoughts and intents of hateful, judgemental, self-righteous hearts may not be known in some instances.
I am a Christian but I personally believe that too many forget that the law of God made all guilty and that the same grace that saves Jews saved Gentiles as Paul wrote. The same grace that forgives a catfish sandwich can forgive a transgender.
On the other hand, or end of the balance, transgenders can point out a judgemental heart in a straight person just as an overlooked poor person an point out an uncaring heart in a wealthy person.
I guess some just strain at a gnat and swallow a camel trying to justify themselves and feeling their lust of power fulfilled as they harp on the outer appearance of some of us.
But; I believe that God will sort it all out in the end.
Tiffany
Quote from: Tiffany2 on October 17, 2006, 04:46:53 PM
....
But; I believe that God will sort it all out in the end.
Tiffany
But what about those who do not believe that there is a god?
Steph
Quote from: Steph on October 17, 2006, 05:10:29 PM
Quote from: Tiffany2 on October 17, 2006, 04:46:53 PM
....
But; I believe that God will sort it all out in the end.
Tiffany
But what about those who do not believe that there is a god?
Steph
Speaking only from my personal perspective, and not for Tiffany, God will sort it out for everyone in the end. I only hope it's a little while longer before I know for sure.
Satin
Quote from: beth on October 16, 2006, 06:14:37 PM
Grouping millions of people together with a label and hatred is terribly intolerant and ignorant in my opinion.
beth
I need to apologize for venting such strong remarks the other day. I am not a Christian and I
do agree with most of the negative things written here about
(some) of them, it is just that it wasn't qualified with words like "Many Christians", "Some Christians" or "All the Christians I have known" but was a blanket statement covering all Christians. The statements are false when related to all Christians. There are Christians members of our forum. One of our most outspoken voices against the Bush administration is a Christian. Many Christians do not support Bush or the war. Many Christians voted for Kerry and Gore. Kerry and Gore are Christians. Blanket condemnation of all Christians is just as bad as the way many condemn all transsexuals.
My family is Christian. When I came out with who I was they cried because they understood how hard it was for me and said I should have come out much sooner. I received not only acceptance but offers of help toward my transition. I am welcome at all my childrens homes and welcome to enjoy my grandchildren. I haven't been told God does not make mistakes. I have been told God made me transsexual for a reason. I myself do not know how things work but do know there is a god, I have felt her presence and seen her power.
beth
Quote from: Steph on October 17, 2006, 05:10:29 PM
But what about those who do not believe that there is a god?
Steph
That's where we're lucky. We have Christians to pity us, tell us we're going to hell, and to pray for us. We'd be screwed otherwise. :)
bri
Quote from: Brianna on October 17, 2006, 05:49:51 PM
That's where we're lucky. We have Christians to pity us, tell us we're going to hell, and to pray for us. We'd be screwed otherwise. :)
bri
Bri, good work! Succinctly put. I love it.
Steph, I didn't know that you were once a Mormon. I was too.
Some day, God and I are going to sit down together and have a good laugh.
Cindi
Who wrote the Bible? Who printed it? Who proofread it? Who made the 'necessary' corrections?
Did God create gender as our society knows it? Does God only see physical male and physical female with nothing in between? Or does She see us for who we are inside, regardless of gender?
We are told not to ask questions, just believe. "That's why they call it faith." Is that blind faith?
Humans are like books. There's the cover and the contents. No book ever became a great seller just because of a good cover. It's the contents that counts. And no book that was ever created had a cover that completely misrepresented the contents. Why should we be any different?
When I was born there was a mixup and I was given the wrong cover. Society did that because they didn't see inside and realize who I really am. God knew all along. Society told me I had to make the contents match the cover, not God. It wasn't until I did some deep soul searching (something religious fanatics tell us to do) that I realized society was all wrong.
We are told things at such an early age that we don't even have the ability to question it. When we finally reach that age where we have the strength and courage to be able to stand alone and be ourselves, we get resistance from everyone we know because it upsets their lives and their beliefs.
These same people don't want to see we have valiantly struggled with something they probably couldn't handle for a single day. They don't see we have done this for them. And many never will.
"God don't make mistakes." Humans do all the time. So who's guidance do we follow?
Quote from: Julie Marie on October 17, 2006, 07:18:48 PM
Who wrote the Bible? Who printed it? Who proofread it? Who made the 'necessary' corrections?
If you actually want some answers to those questions, there's a book for laypeople called "The Journey from Texts to Translations" by Paul Wegner. It's kind of thick but there are lots of pictures. ;D
Quote from: Julie Marie on October 17, 2006, 07:18:48 PM
We are told not to ask questions, just believe.
That's the kind of false idea that religious people who are afraid of the answers they'll get, or anti-religious people, espouse. That's not what the bible says. The most succint example, 1 Thess 5:21 - "Test everything". (I could go on with verse references, but there may be no point.) You'll notice the book I referenced above was written by a Christian.
Quote from: Julie Marie on October 17, 2006, 07:18:48 PM
"That's why they call it faith." Is that blind faith?
The kind of faith talked about in the bible isn't "believe even though you have no reason to." Hebrews 11:1 says "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." There is a distinction. It's not saying "have faith because you really really want it to be true, even though you can't see God and have no reason to believe in him." Christian faith is analogous to the faith you have in someone once you know something about the person. For example, I believe that my best friend would talk to me at 5am if I really needed it, even if he's dead tired, even if he didn't sleep the night before, and even if he has something important to do the next day. Can I prove this? no. Has it ever happened? um.. not that I can remember. But I have faith that he would do it based on what I know of him. I have faith in God because of what I've already seen him do in my life. And each time he works in an undeniable way, my faith increases. I don't say this to convince anyone of the existence of God, because you can't transfer your own experiences to someone else no matter how much you describe them, but only to say that the bible doesn't promote faith or belief without reason. The "famous" apologetics verse, 1 Peter 3:15, even says "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect." (it's just too bad many of us forget that last part sometimes. :P I hope you know that I do respect you regardless of what you believe about God.)
Joseph
Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on October 17, 2006, 06:21:04 PM
Quote from: Brianna on October 17, 2006, 05:49:51 PM
That's where we're lucky. We have Christians to pity us, tell us we're going to hell, and to pray for us. We'd be screwed otherwise. :)
bri
...
Steph, I didn't know that you were once a Mormon. I was too.
...
Cindi
Yep I'm just full of surprises :)
Steph
I'd like to ask some semi-rhetorical questions, if I may--
It seems to me that those people, whether they be 'Christian' or 'Muslim' or whatever, are so vehemently anti-whatever (in this case, anti-transsexual,) that it appears to me they are trying valiantly to defend -- somebody or some thing -- from a perceived attack.
What or who are they defending?
If it's God (or god, or g_d,) they're defending, does an omnipotent being really need us mere mortals to defend "Him"?
So, why are they defending? And what actually are they defending against?
Why does a paranoid invent enemies? How important would a paranoid be if he or she had NO enemies, no one out to get them?
What if the people who defend were actually projecting their own doubts about the truth of their faith onto others, and then 'defending' their faith against such things that did cast doubt on to the 'truth' of their elaborate mythology?
Why did the Roman Catholic Church convict Galilleo of heresy? Because they were right about the earth being the center of the universe? Or was it because the new Copernican paradigm, while better explaining such phenomena as retrograde motion of planets, called into question the 'truth' of the Christian/Catholic faith 300 years ago? (The Catholic church pardoned Galilleo somewhere around 1970, btw...)
Why are they defending their faith, rather than seeking the truth?
Karen
I defend nothing. I only strive to discover what truths there are out there for me. I hope everyone else will do the same for him/herself.
Must repeat my favorite phrase: A chaque son gout (to each his own).
Rafe [the truth-seeker]
I read this thread and I want to get angry. I want to say "Stop arguing from positions of ignorance!" "Stop parading opinions as facts"! "Stop making sweeping statements" - even after you must have just finished reading a post that mentions this very point. Stop judging the many by the bad examples.
I want to do all this, I should be angry, yet I feel my heart to be very heavy, - because I know (as far as can ever be determined here) you who make these posts - and I KNOW that you are not like that, I have read your other posts.
So if Christians, Muslims, "organised religion" is so bad - then who is good? Athiests? like Lenin or Stalin maybe. Wicca - like maybe curses & hexes & Alistair Crowley type stuff. Druids & the like? God help us they were evil - and that was not just Roman propaganda. The sad part is that you are describing humanity with all its faults.
Truely this is a negative thread, born out of Brianna's hurt and the hurt of others here who suffered by intolerant people who were obviously NOT what they labled themselves. Christians = followers of Christ's teachings, love tolerance compassion
Rana -
I am sorry if I rant, there are good posts here but the mood is depressing :(
Quote from: Rana on October 18, 2006, 08:03:13 AM
I read this thread and I want to get angry. I want to say "Stop arguing from positions of ignorance!" "Stop parading opinions as facts"! "Stop making sweeping statements" - even after you must have just finished reading a post that mentions this very point. Stop judging the many by the bad examples.
I want to do all this, I should be angry, yet I feel my heart to be very heavy, - because I know (as far as can ever be determined here) you who make these posts - and I KNOW that you are not like that, I have read your other posts.
So if Christians, Muslims, "organised religion" is so bad - then who is good? Athiests? like Lenin or Stalin maybe. Wicca - like maybe curses & hexes & Alistair Crowley type stuff. Druids & the like? God help us they were evil - and that was not just Roman propaganda. The sad part is that you are describing humanity with all its faults.
Truely this is a negative thread, born out of Brianna's hurt and the hurt of others here who suffered by intolerant people who were obviously NOT what they labled themselves. Christians = followers of Christ's teachings, love tolerance compassion
Rana -
I am sorry if I rant, there are good posts here but the mood is depressing :(
I can understand your feelings Rana, but I can also sympathize with those who consider themselves as apart of the GLBT movement as their very existence is condemned by many organised religions, the Catholic church comes to mind and the recent edicts from the Vatican. Having said that there are organised religions that embrace the GLBT community such as the United Church of Canada, there are more of each of course. (So is this two different Gods one for the Catholics and one the Unitarians?). I know, I'm being facetious.
I guess folks just get tired of those who feel their way of life is better than ours, and tell us how to live our lives, that we are to be shunned, and need to change in order to get to heaven etc... and I fear that will never change. One thing that does irk me to no end, and this is strictly a personal beef, is those who feel the need to wish me "God bless", or "I'll pray for you", or "You are in my prayers" and similar religious sentiments as it assumes that I'm religious and believe in God. I know that they mean well but a simple "take care", or "thinking of you" or "you are in my thoughts" to me are more sincere and personal. ( But then I think that I've even slipped and told someone they are in my paryers ) :)
Am I being narrow minded, am I painting everyone with the same brush, I don't think so. I understand that there are many good people out there, some are religious, some are not, I just need to know that they are good :)
Steph
Quote from: Steph on October 18, 2006, 09:31:07 AM
I guess folks just get tired of those who feel their way of life is better than ours, and tell us how to live our lives, that we are to be shunned, and need to change in order to get to heaven etc... and I fear that will never change.
I really agree with that.
I am an adult with my own right to my own opinions and ideas. This includes the right to have my own personal impression of organized religion - favorable or unfavorable. If you are certain of your own beliefs, conflicting opinions should be exogenous to your faith.
I think part of what I find frustrating about the intellectual veracity of religion is the psychological defensiveness that often accompanies it. Opinions are minimized (Brianna feel this way because she was hurt), and a false-concensous effect is prevalent (Everyone knows Christianity is just an altruistic religion.)
I can certainly accept that not everyone shares my agnosticism and distrust of organized religion. Surely the Christians here can accept the same that not everyone shares their beliefs?
Bri, respectfully
PS - Whatever my opinion, I have never met a gay or a transsexual person of faith on earth that I wasn't impressed with the sincerity of their views. Mazel Tov.
The topic states two things:
1. God does not Exist
2. Religion is only used to oppress people.
I don't know if God exists or not, personally, I think he does, but it's not something I claim to know.
I agree that religion can oppress people by oppressing free thought through the process of early indoctorination, guilt, and peer pressure. I do not agree that religion's only use is to oppress people.
Jessica
Quote from: Rana on October 18, 2006, 08:03:13 AMWicca - like maybe curses & hexes & Alistair Crowley type stuff.
Goodness gracious, poor Aleister continues to get a bad rap even today. In his time he was loathed by the churches (which were very conservative by today's standards) because he did drugs, practiced lots of sex acts, and played around with symbols. I suspect he did it just to bother the powers that be (or is that the powers that were?).
I hope that this doesn't appear too stupid a question but it is something I have wondered since seeing both Christians, those who were hurt by churches, and non Christians here.
Would it be possible to have a forum for any ministers on this site to post a word of exhortation from the scriptures that is not swayed by doctrines, denominations or common teachings that appear judgemental? Things that glorify the Lord without going into areas that hurt others?
It would give any lurking ministers the opportunity to join and maybe share something. And who knows; maybe it would ease some of the hard feelings towards Christianity that have been brought on and fueled by the ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing that have forgotten that the same grace that covers sweating in church and their clothing of diver's materials covers other areas as well and gives them no room to judge.
Just an idea. I hope it's not too foolish.
Tiffany
Quote from: Tiffany2 on October 19, 2006, 12:46:42 PM
I hope that this doesn't appear too stupid a question but it is something I have wondered since seeing both Christians, those who were hurt by churches, and non Christians here.
Would it be possible to have a forum for any ministers on this site to post a word of exhortation from the scriptures that is not swayed by doctrines, denominations or common teachings that appear judgemental? Things that glorify the Lord without going into areas that hurt others?
It would give any lurking ministers the opportunity to join and maybe share something. And who knows; maybe it would ease some of the hard feelings towards Christianity that have been brought on and fueled by the ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing that have forgotten that the same grace that covers sweating in church and their clothing of diver's materials covers other areas as well and gives them no room to judge.
Just an idea. I hope it's not too foolish.
Tiffany
There is no such thing as a stupid question Tiffany, only stupid answers. As for a forum where ministers can congregate and post words of exhortation, well that's not quite what Susan's is all about. We have the spirituality forum where these issues can be discussed, openly, and without fear of retribution. All ministers are always free to join Susan's whether they are lurking or not. They should have nothing to fear as everyone is welcome as long as they abide by the terms of service and keep in mind that this is a support site for the T community, and not a place to preach or try and convert.
Steph
I've been following this thread after only posting my thoughts once and its awesome and i mean that in a good way. I learned to take a few things less or non-personal in life religion-politics mostly what a cliche` though huh? heh....
But regardless of how strong or passionate the posts and messages I judge no one for their views or findingshere...in life I have too much judging to do for myself! But neat in a way that people (us) are all expressing so many different opinons and views.
I wonder are the teachings and the bible like a recipe where everytime you make it (or when someone reads it) you find its ever so different or in the case of reading the bible that people interpret it all a little differently as well.? [/u]
I duuno.. My neighbors building a garage and him and his dad are out here on the street in a heated debate i wanna spy and see what they are arguing about! hehe!
Steph;
Thank you so much for your understanding answer. I do worry about offending people and appearing foolish. Maybe I shouldn't be so self-conscience, but I can't help it. This site is in many ways like a family as I read articles and see so much of my life told by others.
I too have been hurt by Christians both in references to being transgender as well as doctrinal views. Some of it I brought on in zeal and my own foolishness but some was uncalled for.
My inquiry wasn't to break any rules or to convert anyone. I just wish that some could use the word of God in a way to give hope where others have used it to judge and destroy. I guess in a sense like a spiritual form of support that would not try to convert, hurt nor sway anyone.
If I get bolder I may start a blog for that. Not here of course. I don't want to break any rules. Maybe on one of the blog sites. The site I have now I am too shy to share. But then again; if I was bolder I would probably come out. And who knows; maybe down the road I will.
Anyway; thank you so much. It means a so much to me for all of you to be so kind and understanding and I wouldn't want to anger or hurt anyone for any reason.
You all are so terriffic and I do love this site so.
Tiffany
Tiffany2,
I strongly as I wish you would show more understanding that many don't find comfort in your views, I really respect what you are saying in this last post.
I think being a transsexual is among the most developmentally damaging journeys that exists in the human experience. I think we're all just in a state of triage, trying frantically to save ourselves. If you find comfort with that thought process, Mazel Tov. I certianly wouldn't begrudge you anything that helps lessen the developmental damage from the dysphoria we collectively fight.
And besides, the world is undoubtedly better off with transsexuals that can communicate with those chosing to live in christian collective thought - especially with terms of language they respect and understand.
Bri, who is happy when any TS finds their way. :)
A response to "I wonder are the teachings and the bible like a recipe where every time you make it (or when someone reads it) you find its ever so different or in the case of reading the bible that people interpret it all a little differently as well.?" by Ricki
I just want to say how much I appreciate this question or insight in regarding the teachings of Jesus (or any other) and the bible. In the paragraphs that follow I would like to offer my thoughts on this insight.
Earlier in the thread there was a comment made about the story of the elephant and the blind man. I do not want to re-tell the story but the gist is that each one touched a different part of the elephant and they all got a different understanding of what an elephant was. One saw it from its tail, another it's leg and another trunk. The argument that follows is that each one just saw an aspect of the elephant and described it different and it was still and elephant. Therefore the same is for God. Man simply sees different aspects of God/G_D/supernatural creature/ or anything else.
Because man sees God in different way does not mean all are correct. The fact of the story is that the elephant was an elephant in its fullness. Because man has different views of God does not make all views of God correct. I want to take this also to the interpretation of the scriptures and teachings of Christ. Some people see that God wants his people to be rich, or that God hates ->-bleeped-<-s, etc... These are simply wrong understandings of scripture. People may get different understandings of scripture and rightfully so, due to different perspectives, but that does not make them all right. It becomes the goal of man to use reason to decide what is true and what is not. This must be done for scripture and God.
One way to understand what is true is to use reason when studying the scripture. As said in Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD. The Bible invites you to study and challenge what it has to say. This is not to be done through mere opinions rather through proper study so that we may come as close as possible to understanding the truth. Please understand that the bible does require faith yet at the same time we are invited to use reason to understand it.
I apologize for the length of the response. I felt it was important to discuss the comment made by Ricki. I would like thank you for offering this insight to the continual conversation of the thread.
JamesBrine
I am God and I do not exist.
>:D
Cool!
Response back to JamesBrine: very insightful. I honestly do not study the bible as much as i did when in bible school and church, but i apprerciate anyone's insights. I have a ownderful bible i got from my church i think when i graduated high school so wow its 21 years old maybe 22 years old? Interesting story I'll keep it simple when attempting suicide years back it was bloody and messy, I used a handgun and had the bible clutched in my lap if i rememebr right or it was by my thigh i was kneeling my last thoughts were that God would not judge me too harshly and send me to hell for what i was about to do.. anyway i survived somehow survived that awful nightmare, there was blood everywhere I was careful to lay a large sleeping bag out knowing there would be blood and my brother told me the mess that they had to cleanup was awefull I literally had all my blood excet a pint all over the place, the bible was in the middle of this mess and there's not a drop of my blood on it?
How werid is that! i have the same bible it comforts me and i do not even have to read it for it to comfort me! I honestly slept with it for a few years under my fillow or clutching it...
So i appreciate your reply and agree 100% I think some people misread and misinterpret what they see and read in religion and i think to the shame of it all a lot of the religious leaders seek to teach their mis-interpretations to people??
I will add this maybe its not the right comparison "reason", but i freely talk to God and question many things not because i am insubordinate but because i am frail and human and imperfect and want to know? I want to know why, and i ask for money and gifts and good health and miracles! The good Lord has seen fit to answer some of my prayers and i think in a lot of ways does this through lifes circumstances and we are a lot of times none the wiser when things happen!
Ever hear the term cannot see the forest through the trees! Some people in many of lifes issues get soo caught up in the first line of trees they see they miss the entire beautiful mysterious and frightening forest that waits behind it!
Subject: this is over
Message: write your sob story. cry to your misinformed friends. find a new last name. i do not accept your actions. no one in your immediate family does.that is the decision we have made. leave us be. dont call. and please lie, lie, lie for the rest of your diluted life; it will only leave you in the same miserable position you find yourself now. leave us alone. leave us alone. do not call us your family . you slap us on one side of the face and kiss on the other. i am done. we are done. go away. go away. go away.
This is my christian family...,
Quote from: Brianna on October 20, 2006, 11:01:44 AM
Subject: this is over
Message: write your sob story. cry to your misinformed friends. find a new last name. i do not accept your actions. no one in your immediate family does.that is the decision we have made. leave us be. dont call. and please lie, lie, lie for the rest of your diluted life; it will only leave you in the same miserable position you find yourself now. leave us alone. leave us alone. do not call us your family . you slap us on one side of the face and kiss on the other. i am done. we are done. go away. go away. go away.
This is my christian family...,
That is just
evil. I'm so sorry Brianna. :'(
It truly is sad that so many claim to be Christ's and yet do such things.
Kind of like the pharisees condemning the disciples that plucked the wheat on the sabbath as they went through the field. As the pharisee that said thank God I'm not like that sinner and yet the publican that was just merely said have mercy on me. I wonder if they would be so quick to condemn if they woke up one day and felt like us. I bet they would search the scriptures to find a different answer then. I wonder if their faith would fail?
I'm sorry Brianna. And disgusted that so many have forgotten they need mercy while they drive off those who they deem unclean. But as they judge they shall be judged.
But that's just my opinion. Once again; I'm sorry they have judged you and hurt you so.
Tiffany
Posted on: October 20, 2006, 02:08:35 PM
Just an afterthought.
They called Jesus Beelzebub and hated him for eating with the so-called sinners.
And he was more righteous than all.
We may not agree on a lot of spiritual things but I admire your outspokenness and straightforward attitude. And it does bother me that Christianity has become a nest of pharisees that judge and condemn others.
And personally; I cherish the sisters and brothers on this site that go through things most cannot fathom and would lose their faith over. Both those who believe as I and those who don't.
And; what they did was evil. And a shame.
But that too is my opinion.
Tiffany
That's a very cold reaction from your family.
I couldn't help but notice the "diluted" part of the letter. Diluted?? What exactly are you diluted with?? I think they must have meant to say 'deluded.'
You should have written a very short note to them explaining the fact that they are grammatically inept and you're far better off without them :)
many *hugs* your way sis.
Jessica
Brianna,
This is the letter that I got from my mother:
C. Jones:
I think that you'd better leave the state. I'm sick of you spreading your nasty little accomplishment all over Salt Lake. We have to live here. AND leave my daughter ALONE.
S.M Steele
Her daughter of course was my sister who was the only member of my family who would talk to me. We have a lot in common, you and I, Brianna. ;)
Cindi
Brianna - that's awful and i cannot even pretend to feel good about this and th way your family cast you out! I have no encouraging words except that your thoughts and actions are your justification and they are not mine to judge i accept whichever way you feel about things fine b me!
FAMILY-gag! Mines as bad in a skeakier way.... because i have not really transitioned or went that route my family still sees the "guy" mostly, and accepts that; but as i said in a few posts the mere mention of gender is a tribal no-no.........
So they are essentially my family and there but i have to work around their rules and the hell with some or all of mine???? How nice huh????
I do not know what would be worse having them here as fakes or not having them at all? A few of my friends parted ways and it was ugglier? I had a very very good friend from the Army i stayed in touch with after my suicide his wife was just hell bent on wanting an answer when i told her she seemed understanding? him he got really, REALLY cuaght up on "whether i was gay or not-which had nothing to do with it" and we fell out! 8 years down the tube!!!!!
Now without him knowing anything in combat the fake exterior me he would of taken a line of fire for me everybody in the battallion would have as i would of them... funny how this gender thing just freaks people out? Frustrating cause i think to a bigger degree society is moving forward a little or lot faster with the GBL mugs!
anyway this kind of stuff is the stuff that has tragically helped to form me and the beliefs and feelings i do have, I love my family but would not put them ahead of my own agenda not out of hatred athough that's easy to muster up with them, nore so out fo resentment because they could justify me in their own way and write rules for me but i have no say in the matter? so again would i say oh my I canot leave this world what would my sisiter or brother do??? they're simply not on that emotional agenda, what a seed we sow!
I am too at fault to be a Christian but it would be nice to be a real one.
The way I believe is really a good way for people but so hard.
It would propagate peace if anyone tried it.
I can try but never succeed.
Sky;
From what you have written, you probably are more of one than many of us. That was beautiful.
Tiffany
must echo tiffany's remark.
Rafe
Brianna;
The note you received and posted is NOT evil. The person who wrote it was angry, and scared, and in denial, and was bargaining for the return of a posession they lost.
Here's another way to look at this.
Forget 'religion'. Your family mourns the 'death' of a son/brother/uncle/MALE member of the family. But they mourn the loss of something THEY posessed. Their religion -- 'christianity', in this case -- even though it teaches many forms of compassion, could not help them overcome the irrational anger/resentment they felt that you had stolen 'you' away from them.
How would they react if a neighbor shot and killed a member of your family? Would they call for bloody retribution, or even take some sort of action, in order to even the score? Would 'turning the other cheek' be even a distant option?
So the male you is 'killed' by a close family member, you. How do you get even for something done to a family member by the same family member? Especially when what that family member does sets off homophobia or transphobia? You can't kill the perpetrator without killing the 'victim'. And they have hope that some day 'he' will come to 'his' senses and they will get their son/brother/uncle/MALE member of the family back.
So they punish you by hating you for what you have 'chosen' to become (you can't punish someone who has no choice in the matter) and sending you away. You are not to be mollycoddled, because then you'd NEVER develop the discipline necessary to succeed in life and resist these impulses, etc.
The male you will die in their minds and be mourned. Or, rather, they will SELFishly mourn the son/brother/uncle/MALE member of the family that THEY lost.
For how long? The grieving process takes at least a year and a half -- IF the person wishes to get through/over it. But some people wallow in one of the steps for YEARS -- they lovingly nurture their anger/denial/bargaining/whatever, and it becomes something that defines them.
Brianna, I say that there is still hope -- don't YOU ever lose hope. They may yet be able to see you as a long-lost daughter/sister/aunt/female family member, and may someday NEWLY welcome you into the family.
But you have to find some way to maintain contact. You should stay up on what happens, somehow. Send birthday cards to family members. Send other cards or letters for appropriate or significant events. And know that what you send may be burnt/trashed/ripped up in effigy of the girl who 'murdered' their son/brother/uncle/etc. Send that stuff anyway. Send postcards from far-away places you visit. Send change-of-address/phone-number notification. To those who WILL still communicate with you, ask them to give message of love and acceptance to those who stubbornly, selfishly won't.
Be the one who teaches them what REAL compassion is all about.
But you, too, have to get through your grieving process. We are here. And many of us have 'been there.' Sadly, going through a grieving process is part of transition for many. Just like hormones, mannerisms, beauty tips, et cetera are now part of your transition, you will need to make time for your grieving the loss of your family. Start here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grief) for some more information. Seek out people you can be close to -- especialy during significant dates such as holidays. I'll make the offer here -- PM me if you want my contact information for your rolodex, PM me 'cause you just want to talk to me because you need SOMEBODY to talk to, not type your bile out to a soulless computer. And I'm sure there are others here that will extend the same offer.
Religion is not the demon. Your family USED their religion to 'justify' their act. You tried to use their religion to prevent them from doing so. What kind of religion is it where god is reduced to a waiter or bellhop of a rather dull and stupid sort?
Karen
Brianna,
Karen said what I was thinking, but didn't know how to say. I don't have a PM thing, but I wish I did now just for the good reason of helping you if possible.
When I read your posting of the letter, I wanted to hug you really bad. I believe, as Karen said, there will be a coming around of most of your family members. When it happens I'm sure you will be getting hugs from them. If this break can bring about such intense pain, then that means you have something worth salvaging no matter how long it takes.
Sent with love and well meaning,
Rebecca Fog
I personally do not believe in God, or in Heaven or Hell, but I am always curious as to why people do. I\'d rather that people didn\'t quote the bible to me, as it\'s not something that I feel is true. What I am interested in finding out is what it is that makes you believe in your heart.
I personally find organised religion (of any persuasion) slightly distasteful. I can\'t really see that it\'s done anything for the world other than cause wars and subjugate women and indigenous peoples. Every extremist group seems to find justification for their actions in the Bible/Koran/Torah (I\'m thinking of the KKK, Al\'Quida etc) but I am also aware that the Bible/Koran/Torah has a lot to say that is worth paying attention to, whether or not you believe in God; why is it that the good in the book is so often ignored in favour of parts that incite violence and intolerance?
"Do you believe in God, Andrei? No. Neither do I. But that's a favorite question of mine. An upside-down question, you know. What do you mean? Well, if I asked people whether they believed in life, they'd never understand what I meant. It's a bad question. It can mean so much that it really means nothing. So I ask them if they believe in God. And if they say they do -- then, I know they don't believe in life. Why? Because, you see, God -- whatever anyone chooses to call God -- is one's highest conception of the highest possible. And whoever places his highest conception above his own possibility thinks very little of himself and his life. It's a rare gift, you know, to feel reverence for your own life and to want the best, the greatest, the highest possible, here, now, for your very own." We, The Living by Ayn Rand. :)
-- Bridget
Hi,
There are those of us who believe that God is integrated with human psychology. In this case, God is not separate from us, or tempting us to believe that we are any higher than the ground we walk upon. Where we go, God goes, where God goes, we go. To us, life is God.
In the case of truly terrible people, they are not in touch with their god. On the other hand, some really nice people are in touch with God, but have no need to consciously acknowledge it.
Speaking of life. I don't think of life as bodied animals, insects, and plants, and insects, and bacteria, and etcetera. To me, there is life in the starlight that bounds around the universe. There is life in the dust and the refuse that sits mostly idle on the moon. There is life in the rocks we walk upon or step around. And, there is life in imagination, romance, good and bad timing, coincidences, skateboards, and every single item which inhabits this universe/reality.
I guess God is within all of it, but there is no way humanly possible to describe the connection between God and our own human psyches. We can't even explain our own conciousness to ourselves.
Not everyone knows God. Not everyone has to. My disagreement with the statement; there is no God doesn't even exist beyond my own consciousness. I disagree with the statement, but those who make the statement are stating an arguement which does not really exist. Or, maybe the statement just shouldn't exist because, like our own dreams, we can not prove it to anyone other than ourselves.
God (minus Christ), I hope this made sense.
First to Fear, Last to Love,
The Rebecca
It did to me. :) I owe you a cookie! ;)
tink :icon_chick:
When God invites me to T42, then I'll consider its possibility as an existing entity. Until then, I'm an evil atheist. :3
-- Bridget
Dear Miss Bri-la la,
I wish you were my daughter... (heavy sigh). I just want to gather you up, hug you, and tell you that you are loved.
LGF