Transsexual killer: Keeping me in men's prison violates my human rights
By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 1:51 PM on 24th July 2009
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1201947/Transsexual-killer-Keeping-mens-prison-violates-human-rights.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1201947/Transsexual-killer-Keeping-mens-prison-violates-human-rights.html)
A transsexual jailed for strangling her boyfriend has gone to the High Court claiming that keeping her in a men's prison violates her human rights under European law.
The prisoner, in her 20s and serving a life sentence for manslaughter and attempted rape, is legally female and her birth certificate has been amended accordingly, London's High Court heard.
Born male, she has had hair on her face and legs permanently removed by laser and has developed breasts after hormone treatment.
Obviously needs a padded cell. This person has mental problems and should be in the psychiatric ward.
Sorry, just really difficult to work up a lot of moral outrage for someone who frequently murders people.
Quote from: Nichole on July 24, 2009, 10:47:47 PM
Sorry, just really difficult to work up a lot of moral outrage for someone who frequently murders people.
Absolutely!
But the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights) in Strassbourg will probaly agree with her, award her copious amounts of compensation and she will soon be in her own private cell with flat screen TV, Playstation and allowed out at weekends.
Lock her up and throw away the key...
Not exactly the poster child for the movement.
Quote from: tekla on July 24, 2009, 11:04:10 PM
Not exactly the poster child for the movement.
Only for the Finnish branch of Susan's one feels!
Quote from: Buffy on July 24, 2009, 11:10:39 PM
Only for the Finnish branch of Susan's one feels!
I know, I shouldn't! ... But!
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I imagine that's just too true, Buffy!
Quote from: Nichole on July 24, 2009, 11:14:26 PM
I know, I shouldn't! ... But!
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I imagine that's just too true, Buffy!
I second that!
;D :D :laugh: :) ;D :D :laugh: :) ;D :D :laugh: :) ;D :D :laugh: :) ;D :D :laugh: :) ;D :D :laugh: :) ;D :D :laugh: :) ;D :D :laugh: :) ;D :D :laugh: :) ;D :D :laugh: :) ;D :D :laugh: :) ;D :D :laugh: :) ;D :D :laugh: :) ;D :D :laugh: :) ;D :D :laugh: :) ;D :D :laugh: :) ;D :D :laugh: :)
-Sandy(I am so going to hell!)
If they put her on death row it wouldn't matter, all Death Row prisoners are held in isolation.
I don't know the circumstances of her imprisonment, but it should be pretty obvious she shouldn't be in with men. Why should she get more punishment than any other murderer just because she's a transsexual?
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on July 25, 2009, 03:32:08 AM
I don't know the circumstances of her imprisonment, but it should be pretty obvious she shouldn't be in with men. Why should she get more punishment than any other murderer just because she's a transsexual?
As Nichole said, I'm having a real hard time working up any sympathy for a murderer. That's one of the reasons I'm not a defense attorney.
It may be a human rights issue, and perhaps someone else, other than I, can protest in indignation. But if anyone comes to me looking for a contribution to their defense fund, I'll donate to the Happy Valley Owl Sanctuary in Pascagoula Mississippi before I would that.
-Sandy
Just exactly how well do think the women are going to treat someone who is in for rape?
Gain acceptance? I don't know about prisons in England, but I do know a bit about the people who go to prison here, and they are not 'nice' girls. And even if the person could hold their own one on one, prison is not like that and its hard to take on five, ten, twelve people. Though I imagine this murder/rapist would get raped a lot in a mens prison, I can pretty much guarantee you that the women are going to rape them with every object they can find, in every place they can stick it. Every day. Every night.
Well she should be in a womans prison if she murdered men. But why should she have any rights as a murderer anyway?
If she wanted rights she shouldn't have taken away other's rights. Still it bothers me to see the article continually refer to her in the masculine.
Julie
Quote from: Julie Marie on July 25, 2009, 10:24:10 AM
Still it bothers me to see the article continually refer to her in the masculine.
Julie
That I will agree with.
I'm mildly surprised that a lack of sympathy is getting in the way of a more fundamental concern.
The decision to house this person in a male prison wasn't based on the severity of the crime - it'd probably be the same if they were convicted for a short custodial sentence for a much lesser crime. The underlying policy should be the issue here, yet it seems to be muted by our collective distaste for this individual and their offences.
I don't see where she would be any safer in a woman's prison, moreover, I don't see where the women in prison would be safer with her there given her crimes.
No she wouldn't be any safer in a women's prison - far from it (I didn't mean to imply otherwise, sorry). In fact, I think that's the real quandry here...what actually *is* reasonable to do for any transgendered convict, rather than just this one?
California had toyed with the idea of housing them in a separate wing, but I think that went out the window with the budget problems. Hell, put her in a woman's prison, in general pop I think the problem would solve itself.
They keep the pedo's & kid killers segregated over here, I believe. Do they do the same thing over there? Not sure if a trans person would really want to be locked in their wing but given the choice of that or being stomped in gen-pop... ?
No pedos are housed in general pop a lot of the times, or in special psychiatric prisons (which are real freak houses) - and yeah, child molesters have a very hard time in prison and sometimes get killed. So it goes.
Can't say my heart bleeds for them...but I digress. So what's the conclusion - bung the trans folks in with the general population and let them take their chances? And if they're going to take a pasting from either male or female inmates anyway, should throw 'em in with whichever gender they're legally recognized as and be done with it?
Well, if it's a life sentence and they're going to continue allowing HRT (not doing so would be a human rights violation, too...), then she kind of has to be in a womens' prison.
You can't throw someone who looks like a woman into general pop of a male prison.
And most of you are missing the point. Someone who is less guilty, or more innocent, ends up in the same place as her most likely. It needs to be done right.
You can't throw someone who looks like a woman into general pop of a male prison.
Hell no, I think it would be much more fitting to through a rapist into the general pop of a woman's prison. Bet she would last longer with the boys than with the girls.
It's the whole penis thing. As long as a person sports one it's gonna be tough being gendered female once the clothes come off. But being put in the general population of either prison is asking for trouble, unless she wants to be someone's bitch.
I think Kat's right, the girls would pummel her. The guys would probably just defrock her.
Julie
Like I said, I don't know much about who goes to jail in England, but in the US, you don't want to go to a mens prison for child abuse, pedo charges, rape or beating up a girl - beat the crap out of a bunch of cops you'll be a hero, but the guards are going to hate you. In woman's prisons child abuse and pedo stuff will get you on the bottom of the pecking order for sure as most of the women in prison have kids and miss them a lot. On the other hand, women in jail for killing an abusive partner pretty much get a pass, and a few years ago in California a woman killed some guy who had sexually molested her son, after having been convicted of that same charge before. She pulled out a gun and killed him right in court. She did five years I think on some way undercharged deal, and in an interview she said that the women in prison were not abusive of her, but rather very supportive.
I just could not imagine what someone who once was a guy, and is in jail for rape, would fair. And even though the name was not released, the prisoners would know, they have their own sources of information.
I doubt a big tough guy would last long in a woman's prison on a rape charge.
Occam's Razor. She's a woman, she should be in a female prison.
Florida's solution - old sparky.
Well,
I am almost at a loss for words. Several things concern me about this article.
1. The article consistently uses the wrong pronouns when referring to this person.
2. So much of the general population think that we are deviant and mentally ill. This article just fuels this mis-conception and I am sure that many people now think we are all this way like the person in the article which is only going to make them feel justified when violence is hurled towards us.
3. This does open the question as to how should society properly handle people who commit crimes and are also transgendered?
4. Someone in the article said that the perpetrator's crimes were the result of issues relating to being transgendered.
No, I dissagree! Being transgendered does not compell someone to commit henous crimes!!
Although this person should pay for their crimes (manslaughter, rape) I think that this person should be allowed to continue her transition.
I am not being sympathetic to this person, I am more concerned about the damage this person did to the perception of transgendered people by the general population which we have been working so hard to improve.
<swear word>
Brenda
Should not put a prison out too much by putting her in isolation (in a women's prison), for her own protection. Prison is about society's just punishment and should not include rape, beatings, and/or murder.
QuotePrison is about society's just punishment
Prison is to protect innocent people. We lock dangerous people up so they can not hurt anyone else. Prison is also about rehabilitating criminals so they can live with others without hurting anyone. The only reason we do not execute murders is the appeals are too expensive.
This person needs help not social engagement. A padded cell alone is necessary until they can come to terms with people.
I'm rather amazed that so many of you don't see the implications here of this case beyond just the immediate case in front of you. If you forgot to pay a parking ticket would you consider it fair to be thrown in with men if you were a woman, or women if you were a man? Would you feel safe? Would that be justice?
It's immaterial what crime this woman committed, there are specific laws and ways to deal with them. She is a woman and should not be in the men's prison. Anything else is unnecessary and cruel. And does make me worry about our brothers and sisters when they go to prison.
It's immaterial what crime this woman committed
Oh bull pucky. So raping you would be the same as stealing your car or purse? If I sold you some dope? Guess which one you get over with first? (hint: the on that comes with insurance,)
So I'm all in favor of maximum security solitary confinement. Most people don't last but a year in those conditions without going totally crazy, so send her to the SuperMax in Florance Colorado or Marion Illinois. She gets 1/2 hour out of her cell a day. To do hygiene. Once a week she gets 1/2 hour in the yard to exercise. Other than that, in solitary, underground. If she is not crazy yet, she'll get there.
I have to side with sarah on this one. No matter the crime, you should not have to deal with being in the wrong prison. If that were to happen then why segregate prisons?
Fine, stick the rapist in a woman's prison. And please, don't watch too hard.
The real issue here is what the policy should be on housing transgendered inmates. Even a trans person doing a short stretch for non-payment of a fine will be a target in both male and female populations. The only exception would be the post-op who can be entirely undetected (and un-outed) and, frankly, that's extremely unlikely because word does get around.
Women prisoners will almost certainly consider a post-op female to be a man out of sheer ignorance and bigotry. They won't give a flying-f about what gender disphoria is etc.. All they'll care is that this person used to have a cock...period. And there's no way in hell they'd put up with a pre-op! It doesn't take much imagination to figure out what can happen to that person in a male prisons general population either.
Unless we think this is acceptable, the only other solution is segregated accomodation, which carries a cost. You may not like spending your tax dollars on the skank mentioned in the original article but unless they get killed, you still will be - there's still a housing cost in the general population not to mention a likely string of medical expenses from the constant beatings.
Quote from: tekla on July 26, 2009, 02:15:10 AM
It's immaterial what crime this woman committed
Oh bull pucky. So raping you would be the same as stealing your car or purse? If I sold you some dope? Guess which one you get over with first? (hint: the on that comes with insurance,)
It's the same in that you could go to jail for all of those offenses, and in all of those instances if you're a woman it would not make sense to be put in the men's prison. In the US we have this thing called cruel and unusual punishment, and just because someone is trans and has committed a crime, does not mean that their punishment should be worse than someone who is not. We should all be equal before the law.
You're advocating a different set of laws for the transcommunity, where we would be punished more than other groups.
I hope next time the people who thinks she should get inferior treatment to cis prisoners because she is trans accidentally drive 5mph over the speed limit or accidentally park in the wrong place get overly harsh penalties from transphobic police officers, because that's exactly the kind of discriminatory treatment they're condoning.
Lets not forget (as ->-bleeped-<-ed up as this is, it's not the first time trans people have deliberately got themselves imprisoned) that she may have gotten herself arrested and convicted for ATTEMPTED rape to access medical care for gender dysphoria that she may have been denied outside due to the NHS post-code lottery.
I'm not advocating a different set of rules, or laws, I'm trying to tell you that in this case, giving her what she wants is going to put her in more danger, and the only way to protect her is to put her in solitary or isolation. I'm more than willing to bet, that given her crimes the women are going to treat her worse than the men will.
She is in more danger in a woman's prison given the nature of her crimes. Which is fine by me. Give her what she wants (again) turn out the lights, turn your back and the natural order will take over.
Guys go to jail for lots of petty crap, there is still somewhat of a social reluctance (though it's changing) to putting women in prison, so the end result is they women they actually put in prison tend to be in for more violent and brutal crimes on the average. Far more so than the average male incarceration - which in America is for a drug violation.
She attempted to rape her boyfriend, right? Why would women prisoners treat her worse for that? Or strangling her boyfriend? I'm sure there are women in jail for much much worse, as you say.
This isn't about getting justified treatment for her crimes. She's a transsexual who is now legally female - she belongs in the women's prison. I think some people are way too hard headed about what she actually did to look at the situation as a whole.
Yes, she raped a woman with that thing that she so detests. OK, let them give her what she wants: a place in a women's prison in general population where she is found to be 1) mtf pre or non-op and 2) in for raping a woman.
Yep, she ought to get her rights. Every last one of them.