Other than references to a few Native American tribal distinctions and a few women soldiers who fought as men, there is precious little historical information on transgendered female bodied persons. Even in societies where crossdressing and masculinity are frowned upon in females, there are no female eunuchs or hijras. Setting aside Western society and focusing on historical and traditional cultures, female bodied transgendered people are unrecognized and untreated.
Is this a reflection of:
a) the ratio of mtfs really being higher than that of ftms
b) sexism - nobody can be bothered with women's needs or wants
c) female oppression in traditional cultures - women simply aren't free enough to pursue their own desires
d) difficulty in altering female sex organs (removing/crushing ovaries, producing a phallus, etc)
e) society's reluctance to aid the lesser sex in physical alteration to approximate the dominant sex
What do you think?
I think the number for FTMs seems much lower because there is/was not enough information so FTMs continue to live their lives the way they do because they know of no solution. There is an art site I go to, and surprisingly I find a lot of FTMs... a lot more than MTFs, and I think it might be awareness, seeing as these days we have a lot more information going around.
It may have been sexism, who knows. When they started these medical advances, women had yet to go through their rights battles... or at least not to the extent that they did many years later after the first MTF.
this was an interesting episode of Taboo that discusses 5 genders,
Five Genders? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9VmLJ3niVo#lq-lq2-hq)
there is also a dying culture in romania (i think) that has many women that either choose are are chosen to live as men and have the same roles (although I don't think they use any hormones or surgeries, it's just a social role)
Thanks Beth. That's interesting.
Now if only the rest of world would accept that kind of harmony.
Thank You, Beth.
Janet
well, why are there no male counterparts to tomboys?
Quote from: Nero on July 24, 2009, 06:31:24 PM
Other than references to a few Native American tribal distinctions and a few women soldiers who fought as men, there is precious little historical information on transgendered female bodied persons.
Why do you feel that women soldiers who fought as men don't count?
Quote from: Princess on July 26, 2009, 03:12:42 PM
well, why are there no male counterparts to tomboys?
->-bleeped-<-s. Ask Eddie Izzard.
Or, since TV often has a sexual link, crossdressers, or emo boys.
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 26, 2009, 07:17:17 PM
Why do you feel that women soldiers who fought as men don't count?
Wasn't there a theory that Joan Of Arc might have been transgender?
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 26, 2009, 07:17:17 PM
Why do you feel that women soldiers who fought as men don't count?
I just mean that they're not a quantified 'group'. Plus it's really hard to say if they were just dressing as men because that was the only way to serve or if they actually had a trans identity.
Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2009, 08:17:11 PM
I just mean that they're not a quantified 'group'. Plus it's really hard to say if they were just dressing as men because that was the only way to serve or if they actually had a trans identity.
How about all the ones who came home from the wars and stayed men?
The Amazon culture? and no I don't mean the internet store :laugh:
Valykeries ( I think that's the wrong spelling?)
The warrior Queens in Celtic culture.
I think both Romand and Grecian culture had controlling females.
I may (as usual) got the wrong point of the thread.
Having a very bad time just now, posting to survive
Cindy
I think it's D
Snipping off things that are on the outside of the body without killing the person. = Less hard than removing things from within the body without killing the person.
That being said...
*cringes at the thought*
Quote from: Princess on July 26, 2009, 03:12:42 PM
well, why are there no male counterparts to tomboys?
They are called sissys and are usually beat up by the boys.
Post Merge: July 28, 2009, 03:32:52 AM
Quote from: Monty on July 26, 2009, 08:05:44 PM
Wasn't there a theory that Joan Of Arc might have been transgender?
Yes and a few, including myself, also wonder about Calamity Jane.
Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2009, 08:17:11 PM
I just mean that they're not a quantified 'group'. Plus it's really hard to say if they were just dressing as men because that was the only way to serve or if they actually had a trans identity.
Here's a couple of relevant articles posted previously. There's another story from NPR that I remember posting a few months ago but can't find it.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,44933.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,44933.0.html)
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/05/22/she_fought_in_revolution_disguised_as_a_man/ (http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/05/22/she_fought_in_revolution_disguised_as_a_man/)
Also possible female circumcision. Horrible practice.
Janet
But isn't female circumcision purely for male sexual satisfaction? Is that the same as eunuchs etc?
And I agree totally barbaric practice
Cindy
I wish I could find the reference, but I was reading a while back about a tradition somewhere in the Middle East (I think. Or it might be the Romanian tradition that Beth-chella mentioned) that allowed women to take on the role of a man, so long as she swore to remain a virgin for the rest of her life. In exchange she was granted all the rights of men, dressed as a man, was referred to as a man, etc. It was usually something that the eldest virgin daughter would do if her father died and there were no male relatives who could take over the family. Because women were not allowed to work the whole family would starve unless one of the daughters became a "perpetual virgin", got a job, and supported them.
As I say, I can't find it anymore, but there was an article about one of the last remaining "Virgins", who had sworn the oath in the '20s or 30's and had lived as a man ever since.
There was a similar thing in ancient Greece where there were few women who devoted themselves to philosophical pursuits and lived as other philosophers (all men) often to the point where they took wives.
Quote from: CindyJames on August 16, 2009, 02:38:22 AM
But isn't female circumcision purely for male sexual satisfaction? Is that the same as eunuchs etc?
And I agree totally barbaric practice
Cindy
Depends on which female circ. people are referring to.
Some say it is removing the hood, some say it is removing the clit.
Neither removes sex drive or hormones like castrating a man does and neither aids a man's enjoyment.
Quote from: Leslie Ann on August 16, 2009, 07:21:10 PM
Depends on which female circ. people are referring to.
Some say it is removing the hood, some say it is removing the clit.
Neither removes sex drive or hormones like castrating a man does and neither aids a man's enjoyment.
female circumcision type 3 sews the hole up tight for his pleasure.
Actually Nero there are, but things like this are generally not broadcast...
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/23/world/europe/23iht-virgins.4.13927949.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/23/world/europe/23iht-virgins.4.13927949.html)
interesting. sounds pretty close to the hijras except for the genital alterations of course. thanks for teh article, Susan. :)
How incredible.
I was more taken a back that the blood feud still had to be finished, or has it? Now there a 15 yr old's life to avenge.
Is this TG or culture or both? I'm suspecting it is culture but in a harsh environment. I posted many moons ago that only the the wealthy (how to define) have the ability to pursue activities as TG or whatever; the less wealthy are trying to eat and drink. Live another day is more important than living a lie.
Thanks Susan,
Interesting article, I do remember driving through parts of, then, Yugoslavia 35 years ago. The poverty was mindnumbing. I was seated in a coach and looking at a real person; thinking she is Hollywood's version of a serf/peasant and she was in front of me. So so so sad.
Cindy
Yes! That's exactly the article I was talking about! Glad you had the link, Susan. :)
It was also posted here a few months ago https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,37919.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,37919.0.html). I seem to recall hearing a story on NPR also....
Z
Quote from: Leslie Ann on July 28, 2009, 03:24:39 AM
They are called sissys and are usually beat up by the boys.
Post Merge: July 28, 2009, 03:32:52 AM
Yes and a few, including myself, also wonder about Calamity Jane.
How was Joan TG? I'm just curious cause that would be fascinating.
When you hear voices in your head telling you to kill people, as Joan claimed to, you have more in common with David Richard Berkowitz (The Son of Sam killer who claimed the dogs next door told him to kill people) than anyone with gender issues. Though its all but impossible to say as we know full well that both sides - the French and the English - were lying their asses off about her.
Quote from: Susan on August 18, 2009, 04:27:37 AM
Actually Nero there are, but things like this are generally not broadcast...
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/23/world/europe/23iht-virgins.4.13927949.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/23/world/europe/23iht-virgins.4.13927949.html)
There was a documentary about this well.
History Channel's Taboo show possibly.
Post Merge: August 18, 2009, 05:21:11 PM
Quote from: Kara-Xen on August 18, 2009, 11:08:32 AM
How was Joan TG? I'm just curious cause that would be fascinating.
Her life wasn't exactly that of a typical woman at the time.
There is nothing specific, just certain things.The Wikipedia article paints her as being much more normal than she was, compared to other accounts of her life.
Yeah, and move to Albania and you'll find out pretty fast there are worse things than GID.
Quote from: tekla on August 18, 2009, 11:51:18 AM
When you hear voices in your head telling you to kill people, as Joan claimed to, you have more in common with David Richard Berkowitz (The Son of Sam killer who claimed the dogs next door told him to kill people) than anyone with gender issues.
No offence, but I think that there's a HUGE difference between a soldier and a serial killer.
Quote from: Jamie-o on August 16, 2009, 05:25:59 AM
I wish I could find the reference, but I was reading a while back about a tradition somewhere in the Middle East (I think. Or it might be the Romanian tradition that Beth-chella mentioned) that allowed women to take on the role of a man, so long as she swore to remain a virgin for the rest of her life. In exchange she was granted all the rights of men, dressed as a man, was referred to as a man, etc. It was usually something that the eldest virgin daughter would do if her father died and there were no male relatives who could take over the family. Because women were not allowed to work the whole family would starve unless one of the daughters became a "perpetual virgin", got a job, and supported them.
As I say, I can't find it anymore, but there was an article about one of the last remaining "Virgins", who had sworn the oath in the '20s or 30's and had lived as a man ever since.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sworn_virgin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sworn_virgin) Look here,
Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2009, 09:22:45 PM
female circumcision[size=9][/size] type 3 sews the hole up tight for his pleasure.
eww gross. The word should be banned.
Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on October 23, 2009, 12:18:36 AM
No offence, but I think that there's a HUGE difference between a soldier and a serial killer.
Well; you're right. There is a huge difference.
However, Jeanne D'Arc was probably both. Remember; God told her to do all those things... Now; in my book, that's insanity. Also, God told her to do rather horrific things, as well.
Like it or not, but the chance is there that she was just another traumatized foam-mouther. Not much of a saint, really.
I admire her for her courage, for standing up, and proving a woman's worth in the field. However, I'm still of mind that, besides that, she had rather lost it.
A..nyway. Female Eunuchs wouldn't really work.. See; Eunuchs typically had their testicles removed. While that could be done pretty safely, in ancient days, removing the female counterparts, ovaries, would be a lot more troublesome, and, in most ancient cultures, definitely fatal. (Mainly because they hadn't a clue on what bit was what.)
No offence, but I think that there's a HUGE difference between a soldier and a serial killer.
Your not really going down that road are you? Never heard of like "war crimes trials"? OK, on the odd case that you have not read real history let me give you some fine examples of soldiers as serial killers.
Lets start with the obvious
* Germany:
o Bergen-Belsen
o Börgermoor
o Buchenwald ( 174 subcamps and external kommandos)
o Dachau (123 subcamps and external kommandos)
o Dieburg
o Esterwegen
o Flossenburg (94 subcamps and external kommandos)
o Gundelsheim
o Neuengamme (96 subcamps and external kommandos)
o Papenburg
o Ravensbruck
o Sachsenhausen
o Sachsenburg
* Austria:
o Mauthausen (49 subcamps and external kommandos)
* Belgium:
o Breendonck
* Czechoslovakia:
o Theresienstadt
* Estonia:
o Klooga
o Vivara
* Finland:
o Kangasjarvi
o Koveri
* France:
o Argeles
o Brens
o Drancy
o Gurs
o Les Milles
o Le Vernet
o Natzweiler-Struthof (70 camps satellites et kommandos)
o Noé
o Récébédou
o Rieucros
o Rivesaltes
o Suresnes
o Thill
Work camps created by the Government of Vichy in Maroco and Algeria. Thousands of Jews were sent to these camps by the French pro-nazi government of Petain:
o Abadla
o Ain el Ourak
o Bechar
o Berguent
o Bogari
o Bouarfa
o Djelfa
o Kenadsa
o Meridja
o Missour
o Tendrara
* Great Britain (*Note: Alderney in the Channel Islands was the only place in the British Isles where German concentration camps were established. In January 1942, the occupying German forces established four camps, called Helgoland, Norderney, Borkum and Sylt.)
o Aurigny
* Holland:
o Amersfoort
o Ommen
o Vught
+ Arnhem
+ Breda
+ Eindhoven
+ Gilze-Rijen
+ 's Gravenhage (The Hague)
+ Haaren par Tilburg
+ Leeuwarden
+ Moerdijk
+ Rozendaal
+ Sint Michielsgestel
+ Valkenburg par Leiden
+ Venlo (Luftwaffe airfield)
o Westerbork (transit camp)
* Italy:
o Bolzano
o Fossoli
o Risiera di San Sabba
* Latvia:
o Riga
o Riga-Kaiserwald
o Dundaga
o Eleje-Meitenes
o Jungfernhof
o Lenta
o Spilwe
* Lithuania:
o Kaunas
o Aleksotaskowno
o Palemonas
o Pravieniskès
o Volary
* Norway:
o Baerum
o Berg
o Bredtvet
o Falstadt
o Tromsdalen
o Ulven
* Poland:
o Auschwitz-Birkenau - Oswiecim-Brzezinka (extermination camp - 51 subcamps and external kommandos)
o Belzec (extermination camp - 1 subcamp)
o Bierznow
o Biesiadka
o Dzierzazna & Litzmannstadt (These two camps were "Jugenverwahrlage", children camps. Hundreds of children and teenagers considered as not good enough to be "Germanized" were transfered to these places - see our article about the The "Lebensborn " — and later sent to the extermination canters)
o Gross-Rosen - Rogoznica (77 subcamps and external kommandos)
o Huta-Komarowska
o Janowska
o Krakow
o Kulmhof - Chelmno (extermination camp - no sub-camp known)
o Lublin (prison - no subcamp known)
o Lwow (Lemberg)
+ Czwartaki
+ Lemberg
o Maidanek (extermination camp - 3 subcamps)
o Mielec
o Pawiak (prison - no subcamp known)
o Plaszow (work camp but became later subcamp of Maidanek)
o Poniatowa
o Pustkow (work camp - no subcamp known)
o Radogosz (prison - no subcamp known)
o Radom
o Schmolz
o Schokken
o Sobibor (extermination camp - no subcamp known)
o Stutthof - Sztutowo (40 subcamps and external kommandos)
o Treblinka (extermination camp - no subcamp known)
o Wieliczka
o Zabiwoko (work camp - no subcamp known)
o Zakopane
* Russia: (The real number of concentration and extermination camps established in occupied Soviet Union by the Nazies is unknown. The following list contains the name of the major camps. Some of these camps were under Romanian control; e.g. Akmétchetka or Bogdanovka where 54,000 were executed between December 21th and December 31th, 1941)
o Akmétchetka
o Balanowka
o Bar
o Bisjumujsje
o Bogdanovka
o "Citadelle" (The real name of this camp is unknown. The camp was located near Lvov. Thousands of Russians POW were killed in this camp)
o Czwartaki
o Daugavpils
o Domanievka
o Edineti
o Kielbasin (or Kelbassino)
o Khorol
o Lemberg
o Mezjapark
o Ponary
o Rawa-Russkaja
o Salapils
o Strazdumujsje
o Yanowski
o Vertugen
(for all these camps, no subcamp known).
* Yugoslavia:
o Banjica
o Brocice
o Chabatz
o Danica
o Dakovo
o Gornja reka
o Gradiska
o Jadovno
o Jasenovac
o Jastrebarsko
o Kragujevac
o Krapje
o Kruscica
o Lepoglava
o Loborgrad
o Sajmite
o Sisak
o Slano
o Slavonska-Pozega
o Stara-Gradiska
o Tasmajdan
o Zemun
That's only one army in one god damn war. Though they were good at it. But not near as good as we were, were they?
But sure, lets go on.
My Lai
Son My
Matter of fact, the entire US strategy in Vietnam was pretty much a serial killing.
The British, and later American Armies distributing blankets to the natives with smallpox on them.
Everything Spain did in Central and South America.
In fact, between the armies of Spain, England and the United States the number of indigenous people destroyed is in the MILLIONS. MILLIONS, what the hell do you think serial killing is?
Hiroshima
Nagasaki
Dresden
Essen
The Rape of Nanking
Belgium in the WWI
Pirates. Yes Pirates. Most were not 'swashbucklers' they were, in the language of the day - privateers or commerce raiders (i.e. state sponsored terrorists as we would call them today, soldiers by another name - and they thought it was bad luck to have women on board. So they tossed them into the sea, after gang raping them.
That's just recent stuff.
By the way, offence is really spelled, offense.
Quote from: tekla on November 25, 2009, 02:40:24 AM
No offence, but I think that there's a HUGE difference between a soldier and a serial killer.
Your not really going down that road are you? Never heard of like "war crimes trials"?
I say this as a pacifist:
Are you obsessing over me?
Post Merge: November 25, 2009, 02:59:50 PM
Quote from: tekla on November 25, 2009, 02:40:24 AMBy the way, offence is really spelled, offense.
Oh, and by the way:
Not in most of the English-speaking world (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/offence?view=uk). You should really get a grip on the difference between "your" and "you're" before you attempt to correct a person's grammar.