We've all heard about lesbian fears of losing masculine lesbian women to the ftm side, does the gay male community have a similar fear about effeminate gay men going mtf?
edit - chnaged to avoid any stereotyping or offense
I haven't heard of any fear. o.o
Down with stereotypes!
Can't say I'm a fan of the screaming queen either. Something about that contrived, lispy campness that grates on my nerves. Oh of course, silly me - it's not a put on at all! That's why you find so many straight guys with limp wristed, lispy voiced campness.
I don't think they could be MtF though. Women don't act that way either, as far as I know.
Thats hysterical because they don't know anything. My aunts are incredibly butch but they still consider themselves women. Its just plain different.
Quote from: Nichole on July 31, 2009, 03:35:17 PM
I think you're gonna find that the gay male community would be very pleased if all "queens" went mtf. :laugh:
I'm not sure how to read this. There are a couple of quite effeminate men in my discussion group. They are quite popular and seem well loved. The other men seem to take them as they are and like them for who they are.
Maybe I don't know the difference between a queen and a screaming queen.
*falls*
My comment about stereotypes wasnt about the topic name. Those labels are quite ok.
What I was trying to talk was about the stereotype that if you are butch, then you must want to be male... And if you are a queen you must want to be female. Says who? thats some of the stereotypes around.
Your topic name was quite ok. It shouldnt need to be changed, really. In any case being masculine and feminine are just behaviors. And they can be linked to gendered expression but ARENT gender.
Btw I kinda dislike (ok, hate) queens because I feel they are mocking what means to be female. Dunno, maybe if its over the top for both sides it will bother me.
Quote from: Zelane on August 01, 2009, 12:38:35 AM
*falls*
My comment about stereotypes wasnt about the topic name. Those labels are quite ok.
What I was trying to talk was about the stereotype that if you are butch, then you must want to be male... And if you are a queen you must want to be female. Says who? thats some of the stereotypes around.
Your topic name was quite ok. It shouldnt need to be changed, really. In any case being masculine and feminine are just behaviors. And they can be linked to gendered expression but ARENT gender.
Btw I kinda dislike (ok, hate) queens because I feel they are mocking what means to be female. Dunno, maybe if its over the top for both sides it will bother me.
Oh okay. Just wanted to be careful not to cause offense with terms. Not being a part of either group, I don't really know what's appropriate language and what's not.
yeah I think the fact that some straight transmen sought refuge in the only place they could be themselves and date who they wanted before transition has caused the illusion of butch gay women running to embrace manhood. And you're right, people don't get that it's not about gendered expressions.
Quote from: Nero on August 01, 2009, 01:29:58 AMyeah I think the fact that some straight transmen sought refuge in the only place they could be themselves and date who they wanted before transition has caused the illusion of butch gay women running to embrace manhood. And you're right, people don't get that it's not about gendered expressions.
In the little experience I have about lesbianism. I was talking with 2 friends, they have been a couple for some days and we were discussing precisely that situation about the "extreme butchness" of some women. I was quite new ignorant of things and they told me that this same discussion have been going on among their other lesbian friends.
And mostly, that you like girls doesnt mean you are or want to be male. And the opposite same too. In fact, if you go to a lesbian who IS female but just like being masculine and just like girls. And you tell her that she wants to be a man. Most probably youll get slapped (at best!) or yell at.
Its true that pre-transition straight transmen can find some identification or a small refuge in the label of lesbian/butch/dyke that happens. In the other side happens with some girls too. But its just not the same.
When I think of stereotypes im mostly talking about how some people believe (because they are told that) that if you are lesbian then you HAVE TO be butch/dyke and if you are gay you HAVE TO be a queen. The media has been infecting us with that crap for years.
I believed that, because I didnt knew better until I started looking at things in a close range.
Quote from: finewine on July 31, 2009, 03:48:53 PM
Can't say I'm a fan of the screaming queen either. Something about that contrived, lispy campness that grates on my nerves. Oh of course, silly me - it's not a put on at all! That's why you find so many straight guys with limp wristed, lispy voiced campness.
I don't think they could be MtF though. Women don't act that way either, as far as I know.
Yeah, the behavior you see out of a lot of gay guys is absurd. It's not female, it's not male, it's gay. And that's not necessarily a purely negative statement (like "that's so gay dude" - although if someone's lisping and flouncing about it is pretty gay) but it's just the way it is. Teenage girls are horribly obnoxious when they act similarly, god knows I don't want to see an adult man displaying the same behavior. I don't want to see anyone displaying that behavior. It'd be interesting to see why it's developed, I mean, is it just the femms/bottoms putting themselves out there since a masculine gay man is... well, just like any other guy?
I remember David Sederis commenting that the speech tutor at his school should have had 'FUTURE HOMOSEXUALS OF AMERICA' written on the door - what IS with the lisping?
If I had to guess, it's probably more fear about your more hetero seeming partner actually being bi and leaving you for a heterosexual relationship. /shrug.
Quote from: Nero on July 31, 2009, 03:27:17 PM
We've all heard about lesbian fears of losing masculine lesbian women to the ftm side, does the gay male community have a similar fear about effeminate gay men going mtf?
edit - chnaged to avoid any stereotyping or offense
Dunno. Your statement implies that gay men believe that trans women are just "homosexual men" in denial? Are they so ignorant to believe that? Am I understanding this correctly?
Quote from: Leslie on August 01, 2009, 04:50:44 AM
Dunno. Your statement implies that gay men believe that trans women are just "homosexual men" in denial? Are they so ignorant to believe that? Am I understanding this correctly?
I don't know about gay men, but there's been some big controversy over some lesbians' belief that transmen are lesbians in denial, that we are giving in and becoming men to conform to society's ideals. I was wondering if there was a similar thing in the gay male community.
I never remotely identified as a lesbian, never came out as a lesbian, and find that lesbians (at least the ones I've met) only want transmen who have either NOT transitioned yet or don't plan to (ie they still want to ID as lesbian and want their partner to still, technically, be female).
I'm not a lesbian in denial. I have always been a heterosexual male with a female body.
Jay
Quote from: Nero on August 01, 2009, 05:04:06 AM
I don't know about gay men, but there's been some big controversy over some lesbians' belief that transmen are lesbians in denial, that we are giving in and becoming men to conform to society's ideals. I was wondering if there was a similar thing in the gay male community.
Yeah, I'm definitely a lesbian in denial. Me, who wouldn't be caught dead having sex with a woman. No offense, but some of these gals need some serious gender education.
Quote from: finewine on July 31, 2009, 03:48:53 PM
Can't say I'm a fan of the screaming queen either. Something about that contrived, lispy campness that grates on my nerves. Oh of course, silly me - it's not a put on at all! That's why you find so many straight guys with limp wristed, lispy voiced campness.
I don't think they could be MtF though. Women don't act that way either, as far as I know.
Eh heh heh, that wouldn't be me at all *whistles*
Well, now to leave this thread and not come back.
Quote from: Chris on July 01, 2009, 03:22:32 AM
I'm straight & love girls. I dont like dudes. never been w/a dude. dunno 'bout other straight f2m's but I didnt go 2 lesbian bars or anythin like that b4 transition. I was never a "lesbian". all my gf's have been straight women 8) 8) 8) in my mind I've alwyas been a dude that likes women & thats all there's 2 it.
Quote from: Nero on August 01, 2009, 05:04:06 AM
I don't know about gay men, but there's been some big controversy over some lesbians' belief that transmen are lesbians in denial, that we are giving in and becoming men to conform to society's ideals. I was wondering if there was a similar thing in the gay male community.
If there is, those peeps need to learn the basics about gender identity and sexual preference.
Quote from: Matilda on August 01, 2009, 10:17:47 AM
Leslie, you'd be surprised to know how many so called "educated therapists vultures" in "the community" think that straight transsexual women are just a bunch of "hyper homosexuals". Quite nice little gem, eh?
Their licenses should be revoked & they should be locked up for good.
Quote from: Matilda on August 01, 2009, 10:17:47 AM
One thing is for certain though: Like heterosexual men, gay men (effeminate or not) like having penises, enjoy using them, never want to get rid of them and are horrified by the thought of losing them. Plain and simple. After all, they're MEN.
This.
What Nichole said, everything I've heard is that gay men are usually down for encounters with MTFs.
The whole point of liking men is to like MEN. Muscles, fast cars, belligerency, beer, all that manly stuff.
Same goes for women.
I am disgusted by the antics of flaming, lisp-talking butt wagging gay men. If they want to be that fem, get a rack and lop the balls off, that simple.
Quote from: Annwyn D'Fenwyr on August 03, 2009, 01:55:16 PM
The whole point of liking men is to like MEN. Muscles, fast cars, belligerency, beer, all that manly stuff.
Same goes for women.
I am disgusted by the antics of flaming, lisp-talking butt wagging gay men. If they want to be that fem, get a rack and lop the balls off, that simple.
hahaha :laugh: exactly. one thing though..a man (gay or not) wouldn't be caught dead having grs.
one thing though..a man (gay or not) wouldn't be caught dead having grs.
Sure, and the one thing a gay man would not be caught without is a dick on his partner.
Is anyone else intimadated/scared of queens? I can get along with most gay men fine, but when a true blue queen comes to the party, I have to go. They are just so much drama. And so bitchy.
Queens and Frat Boys, I do my best to avoid. They both enjoy being idiots, and trying to make everyone feel bad to mask their insecurities.
I was at this party recently, everything was fine. This one gay guy was singing on guitar, and he was sounding like an angel, then his crazy roommate comes in shirtless with heels, and hula hoop, and starts talking all of this ->-bleeped-<-, next thing I know he's turned on me like "wow you're tall" and I'm like "peace out peoples".
Queens and frat boys are the two worst most annoying subsections of males there are.
I agree Sarah. If I ever go serial killer I have an excellent target >:-)
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 04, 2009, 04:43:39 AM
Is anyone else intimadated/scared of queens?
One thing I have seen happening: in a party or meeting. Almost any female that its there has a subconscious reaction when an obnoxious queen joins an start talking and moving and you know how they do that.
The reaction its that those women will reduce and restrain their movement, speech and other feminine behavior because they will be thinking (subconsciously) dont compare me with that thing. Like I have say queens make a caricature of a woman (or what they think its a woman) and its a stereotype of being gay.
I mean, I dont get it. If gay its being a male who likes males. Its all about masculinity, why adopt/steal/pervert feminine behaviors? Many young gays get trapped in that stereotype thinking its whats expected from them.
But if those persons are indeed feminine they I dont see a problem, jsut the way they act... agh!
QuoteThe reaction its that those women will reduce and restrain their movement, speech and other feminine behavior because they will be thinking (subconsciously) dont compare me with that thing. Like I have say queens make a caricature of a woman (or what they think its a woman) and its a stereotype of being gay.
haha really? :laugh:
Yep.
Its that seeing a person who its annoying and exaggerating the behavior and mannerism. Creates an effect that for the woman seeing it might start to get self conscious of their own behavior and mannerism.
And so, they get uncomfortable around the queens. Funny but happens I have seen it.
forgive my ignorance but what's a "blue" queen?
For a bunch of people who demand a hella lot of acceptance, you sure give zero.
Quote from: Zelane on August 04, 2009, 02:45:01 PM
One thing I have seen happening: in a party or meeting. Almost any female that its there has a subconscious reaction when an obnoxious queen joins an start talking and moving and you know how they do that.
The reaction its that those women will reduce and restrain their movement, speech and other feminine behavior because they will be thinking (subconsciously) dont compare me with that thing. Like I have say queens make a caricature of a woman (or what they think its a woman) and its a stereotype of being gay.
I mean, I dont get it. If gay its being a male who likes males. Its all about masculinity, why adopt/steal/pervert feminine behaviors? Many young gays get trapped in that stereotype thinking its whats expected from them.
But if those persons are indeed feminine they I dont see a problem, jsut the way they act... agh!
NO! Not that at all. In fact, I kind of find your reading of them to be offensive.
No my problem is the catty-ness(for lack of a more specific word) of them. Like I'm not saying an effiminate gay guy. Or even a drag queen. I'm saying a QUEEN.
A queen is like this hurricane of drama and catty comments that comes in. And they are worse than frat boys for transgender people, because just like frat boys, they will sit in the corner with their friends and make obnoxious and mean comments about you, or come over and talk to you in a very condescending manner. A queen thinks everyone exists beneath them, and the whole world is there for them to mess with. They are completely self-absorbed buttholes.
Like Christian Serriano on Project Runway, I would say is a Queen. Queen's in my experience also are some of the more bigoted people you'll run into in the queer community.
Like I said, I dislike them for the same reasons I dislike drunk frat boys. The arrogance and self-absorption that manifests itself in mean spirited actions is a turn off to me.
Post Merge: August 05, 2009, 12:28:14 AM
Quote from: tekla on August 04, 2009, 07:11:41 PM
For a bunch of people who demand a hella lot of acceptance, you sure give zero.
I think I'm talking about something diffrent from Ann and Zelane. It's not the fem stuff of them that I have a problem with. Like I said, I don't care about effiminate gay guys. They are all really diffrent, so how would you even make a blanket statement. But Queen to me is a certain way of being, like frat boy, that is about a lot of negative things. It's the comments, the self absorption, the desire to put people down who are by themselves to amuse their friends. Queens are vicious! That's why they are queens. Unless the Queen is your friend, I don't think anyone ENJOYS queens that much.
I just meant that in a general way, not a specific reference, but tolerance seems to begin at home and spread out form there.
Quote from: Annwyn D'Fenwyr on August 03, 2009, 01:55:16 PM
The whole point of liking men is to like MEN. Muscles, fast cars, belligerency, beer, all that manly stuff.
??? If this were universally true, then very few of my male friends--maybe none of them--would be in relationships.
But then, I hang around a lot of nerds and geeks. Birds of a feather, and all of that.
Quote from: Nero on July 31, 2009, 03:27:17 PM
We've all heard about lesbian fears of losing masculine lesbian women to the ftm side, does the gay male community have a similar fear about effeminate gay men going mtf?
edit - chnaged to avoid any stereotyping or offense
I've never heard anything like that. That's preposterous! Maybe only some morons are guilty of inculcating these crazy ideas in the same way that some idiots in the trans community say that trans women look like drag queens and trans men like bearded ladies.
Quote from: Jeannette on August 06, 2009, 01:14:03 PM
....some idiots in the trans community say that trans women look like drag queens and trans men like bearded ladies.
not all 'trans women' look like drag queens & not all 'trans men' look like bearded ladies but some do.