I'm here cos i'm confused, i've been thinking... in circles... and spirals....
The whole transgender shebang is more than - or different to - just not wanting to be the gender you are physically, right?
Like a women living in a particulalry repressive country where women have few opportunities and little freedom, she may wish she was born a man? And a pacifist or cowardly man in a socioty with a decent war going and conscription for all males and males only may wish he was not a man, maybe?
but being transexual is different, right?
some personal perspectives?
I suppose so. o.o
Sorry I can't think of anything better to type.
I was raised in a family where we were encouraged to become whatever we so chose to become. There was no "my little princess becomes a nurse, my little prince becomes a doctor" mentality.
The schools, even back when I went, didn't teach their children about what's a girl's job and what's a boy's job. We could all be firemen if we wanted to.
In politics, we were the first country with a female president, and we currently have a lesbian prime minister, again, first in the world to do so.
Equal rights here are "almost" equal.
And yet...
I "am" a bloke on the inside, not a girl.
Even when the differences aren't much at all.
what Nichole said. it's about being the gender I AM moreso than not being the assigned one I got stuck with. however it's also about a certain abhorrance of the wrong parts.
QuoteThe whole transgender shebang is more than - or different to - just not wanting to be the gender you are physically, right?
I get where you're coming from, it's currently I think the main thing holding me back from definitively deciding that yes, I DO want to transition. Despite society's "if it's not a girl, it's a boy" thing, even though I don't identify as female at all, sometimes (not always, but sometimes, depending on my mood and whatnot) I cannot say with as much certainty that I'm a man. Being not-a-woman doesn't therefore automatically mean I'm a man, and so I do question if I want to transition to be seen as a man, or in order to
not be seen as a woman.
However, I think that is different to wanting to be seen/accepted/treated as the opposite sex for reasons outside of yourself, as it were. Like, the desire to transition is largely - I think - based on the desire for society to recognise you as
you are, but there is also that identification with that gender in the first place in your own mind. I think what you're talking about, a man wanting to be a woman because of war/conscription etc. or a woman wanting to be a man because of social restrictions/menstruation etc. is purely external - there is no internal, inherent identification there. I think Nero made the point recently that even if it became fashion for men to wear bras, he'd still be happy he had top surgery, regardless of social trends, and I think that's important here - I think the man-conscription/woman-repression scenario you describe creates the desire for the man/woman to change, and if the conscription/repression were removed from the equation, said desire would go away. Whereas for us, I think, even if everyone in society were treated absolutely equally and there were no social pressures or anything, I don't think that that desire, or need, would ever go away.
i know it really rubbed me the wrong way today when i commented to a guy that he was tall and he said "but you're pretty tall, for a chick."
it never used to bother me being called a "chick" but it did today, probably because i hate that sentence "pretty good for a girl/woman/chick". If i'm not just pretty good without the qualifiaction - just don't bother mentioning it.
e.g. i am still angry about 7 years ago when they gave me an award at highschool for "best girl in maths and science" which i found madly patronising! especially given i also got the gender-nrutral science award! ggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrr... they'd said i was pretty good, why'd they have to chuck the "for a girl" on at the end. I really wish i'd turned it down, but there was money or something, which turned outto only be $40... not worth accepting the patronising.
Currently i have an objection to women's sport...
in case you're wonderring, no, i do not know what my point is. i'm just a bit confused.
To me, it was less about NOT wanting the expectations and roles that went with being perceived as male, but rather, WANTING to be perceived as what I am...female. As Nichole said, it got way beyond the point of desire, and became essential. As in, I can't take another step the way things are. I must live as myself or die.
Quoteknow it really rubbed me the wrong way today when i commented to a guy that he was tall and he said "but you're pretty tall, for a chick."
it never used to bother me being called a "chick" but it did today, probably because i hate that sentence "pretty good for a girl/woman/chick". If i'm not just pretty good without the qualifiaction - just don't bother mentioning it.
e.g. i am still angry about 7 years ago when they gave me an award at highschool for "best girl in maths and science" which i found madly patronising! especially given i also got the gender-nrutral science award! ggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrr... they'd said i was pretty good, why'd they have to chuck the "for a girl" on at the end. I really wish i'd turned it down, but there was money or something, which turned outto only be $40... not worth accepting the patronising.
Currently i have an objection to women's sport...
in case you're wonderring, no, i do not know what my point is. i'm just a bit confused.
No, I think you have a very valid point (maybe not entirely related to your inital question, but valid all the same). I hate it when they say things like (sorry, bad example), "7 people were killed, 4 of them women". WHY is that distinction necessary?? 7 people have been killed, does it matter what sex/gender they were? Does identifying them somehow make it more/less of a shame that they were killed because they're women?
QuoteTo me, it was less about NOT wanting the expectations and roles that went with being perceived as male, but rather, WANTING to be perceived as what I am...female. As Nichole said, it got way beyond the point of desire, and became essential. As in, I can't take another step the way things are. I must live as myself or die.
Mmm...I think in that respect it's sort of equal for me...I think... I - as of this particular minute - WANT to be perceived as male as much as I DON'T want society's ascribed female roles and expectations...
Argh, my brain hurts. >_< ::)
Reading these boards sometimes makes my brain hurt, too. You have one group of people hating their bodies for the very traits that another group of people would do anything to have. I get it, but...who's running this circus anyway? I want answers! :D
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To me, it was less about NOT wanting the expectations and roles that went with being perceived as male, but rather, WANTING to be perceived as what I am...female. As Nichole said, it got way beyond the point of desire, and became essential. As in, I can't take another step the way things are. I must live as myself or die.
Mmm...I think in that respect it's sort of equal for me...I think... I - as of this particular minute - WANT to be perceived as male as much as I DON'T want society's ascribed female roles and expectations...
I'm sick of the BS rules of being in this male body but I Don't want the female rules to rule me either I just want to be me
Quote from: Nero on August 10, 2009, 08:05:23 AM
what Nichole said. it's about being the gender I AM moreso than not being the assigned one I got stuck with. however it's also about a certain abhorrance of the wrong parts.
Yeah, me too. I was raised by an early femminist, so I have known from an early age about the drawbacks of being a woman in this world. But deep down, somewhere, I
am a woman and I'll deal with the drawbacks.
And, as Nero said, I lived with my male body because I didn't think I had a choice, but that doesn't mean I ever liked having the wrong parts.
It isn't about wearing dresses and getting out of the draft. (I was drafted during the Vietnam War.) It's about being who I
am.
- Kate
this was a hard part of me talking about transgender stuff on other forums. people started thinking that i was a girl who wanted to play sports and work on car engines, and a few supportive well-intentioned folks said "it's perfectly okay for a girl to do those things." etc.
i didn't realize until that conversation how much the two issues overlap, and yet how much i have to work to distinguish the two when talking to someone...like pulling apart a big intertwined string.
it became much clearer to me when i started passing as male. it's very hard to put into words.
for me, i think i HAD to start experiencing life as someone who passes as male to know that i am more comfortable that way... because, like folks earlier posted, it's not that i hated females or hated all of female life, and lord knows i tried (and still try) to bend my female life to my liking as much as possible. does that make sense?
As far as me wanting to transition because I wanted male privilege and all that, no.
I transitioned because I was NOT female and the wear and tear of pretending to be something I was not became so uncomfortable I had to fix it, which I did as soon as I knew there was a fix.
That people now see me as the competent individual I've always been is icing on the cake. I won't deny it's nice not to have it assumed that I'm stupid. And I'm no longer invisible. But I certainly wouldn't have done anything so drastic (surgery! hormones! name change! coming out!) just for that.
Jay
hrmmmm... i do object to being seen as female and not one of the boys... right up to the point where i have something heavy to carry and "one of the boys" volunteers...
where does this fit into our model?
Quote from: metal angel on August 11, 2009, 11:01:36 AM
hrmmmm... i do object to being seen as female and not one of the boys... right up to the point where i have something heavy to carry and "one of the boys" volunteers...
where does this fit into our model?
lol...well...i don't think you have to be a butch male to be male.
IMO the choice of carrying things or accepting help should be free to everyone! ;)
Yeah. I lived as a girl my whole life because it was easier socially and physically. But mentally, it didn't really feel right. You can basically live however you want.
Quote from: metal angel on August 10, 2009, 03:45:49 AM
I'm here cos i'm confused, i've been thinking... in circles... and spirals....
The whole transgender shebang is more than - or different to - just not wanting to be the gender you are physically, right?
Like a women living in a particulalry repressive country where women have few opportunities and little freedom, she may wish she was born a man? And a pacifist or cowardly man in a socioty with a decent war going and conscription for all males and males only may wish he was not a man, maybe?
but being transexual is different, right?
some personal perspectives?
The difference is that while a girl in an oppressive country may wish to be a boy, if that wish were granted she would hate who she was worse than she does now.
What if it was reversed and you were to transition into the oppressed sex, would you still "want" to transition, or would you stay as you are and soak up the easier way of living? The true transsexual would (and do) at least consider transition even if it means into a more oppressed role. There have been quiet a bit lately about mtf's in Iran and even more oppressive countries.
I don't want this to avoid military service, I already did that. If I had to, I could do it again, but I wouldn't by choice. I have done some of the more masculine jobs, more so than most people, I don't need to switch sexes to avoid that kind of work, I already have done them and I have no fear of them.
Several points were brought up.
First of all this has nothing to do with avoiding military service. I am Viet Nam era. I enlisted, but was found to be unfit for service. Birth defect in my back.
Secondly I have had jobs that were very male oriented. Auto Mechanic, still do woman or not. I like working on cars, but it is hard on said back. Drove 18 wheeler. Retail sales, which was an off shoot of the mechanics.
Male privilege? I have to laugh at that one. You mean male control. I gladly give it to anyone who wants it. I take my personal responsibility very matter of fact. But I really don't want to be the one who must lead the family. I am not good at it. Taking care of house, home and family as woman is more what I have always wanted. Even as a child, I liked helping my Mother clean house, cook dinner, laundry and take care of Dad. But Dad pushed my into the boy things. Sports, football, right tackle. I was bigger when I was a teen. Hated it. So I was more into schooling. I even took an art class thru the mail. I was alright.
For me, being a woman just feels more normal to me. Even seeing my Mother being treated as a second class citizen, which I saw in my younger days. "Oh is your husband home, Ma am? we really need to talk to him about this." Then Dad would ask Mom what she thought and go with her suggestions. They could not just not take Mom's word for it.
I hated the "get him to lift it, move it, whatever". Just because I had a male body, I was suppose to be this great lifting machine? Gee, give me a break. My ex is stronger than I am. We always said that I was the brain and engineer, she was the brawn.
I am just a woman, not some hulking male beast. And I will live my life as a woman from now on.
Janet
Quote from: Janet Lynn on August 11, 2009, 11:31:28 PM
Several points were brought up.
First of all this has nothing to do with avoiding military service. I am Viet Nam era. I enlisted, but was found to be unfit for service. Birth defect in my back.
Secondly I have had jobs that were very male oriented. Auto Mechanic, still do woman or not. I like working on cars, but it is hard on said back. Drove 18 wheeler. Retail sales, which was an off shoot of the mechanics.
Male privilege? I have to laugh at that one. You mean male control. I gladly give it to anyone who wants it. I take my personal responsibility very matter of fact. But I really don't want to be the one who must lead the family. I am not good at it. Taking care of house, home and family as woman is more what I have always wanted. Even as a child, I liked helping my Mother clean house, cook dinner, laundry and take care of Dad. But Dad pushed my into the boy things. Sports, football, right tackle. I was bigger when I was a teen. Hated it. So I was more into schooling. I even took an art class thru the mail. I was alright.
For me, being a woman just feels more normal to me. Even seeing my Mother being treated as a second class citizen, which I saw in my younger days. "Oh is your husband home, Ma am? we really need to talk to him about this." Then Dad would ask Mom what she thought and go with her suggestions. They could not just not take Mom's word for it.
I hated the "get him to lift it, move it, whatever". Just because I had a male body, I was suppose to be this great lifting machine? Gee, give me a break. My ex is stronger than I am. We always said that I was the brain and engineer, she was the brawn.
I am just a woman, not some hulking male beast. And I will live my life as a woman from now on.
Janet
Hulking male beast! *falls over laffing* Hush, Janet, I can hear half the membership going, "Where? Where IS he?" in a sort of breathless way.
But really, you make so many excellent points. I had forgotten about at least half that stuff. Ick yuck barf. So many assumptions are made on gender alone. In the past five years, I have never once had anyone just start in talking to me about either football or car engines (sorry!) with the assumption I know about them/care about them. And (thank Goddess in heaven), when I am out with another woman, it isn't assumed that I'll lead, pay and initiate.
You know, Ive been reading all the comments here and it dosen't get any easier ............ Here I am nearly a sixty year old " Over the Hill hippy " as I like to refer to my self as . Ive been in the cabinet or Recreational Vehicle business, Doll house building business and the towing business for pretty much all of my life .
My folks were the " Ridgid " one always deciding what was womens work and mens work. Meanwhile , my grandmother allowed me to be the girl she knew that I was inside . Years later , I had women learning to work on R V's doing guy stuff, never occured to me that only men could do these jobs .
Yes , living here in Richmond Virginia , I still see and hear of such shenanigans. It's un healthy and unproductive . In the words of Judy Colllins, Some day soon .............. Ellen Shaver
Quote from: Leslie Ann on August 11, 2009, 09:59:17 PM
The difference is that while a girl in an oppressive country may wish to be a boy, if that wish were granted she would hate who she was worse than she does now.
What if it was reversed and you were to transition into the oppressed sex, would you still "want" to transition, or would you stay as you are and soak up the easier way of living? The true transsexual would (and do) at least consider transition even if it means into a more oppressed role. There have been quiet a bit lately about mtf's in Iran and even more oppressive countries.
Actually this is another point i was about to start a new thread for, but since you raised it here. Do you think there are some people who transition for the wrong reasons?
I imagine, that if you were a gay man in a country where homosexuality is strictly forbidden on pain of death and worse – like Iran – being a woman would seem like an easy out to get out of marrying a woman? But probably wouldn't make him happy? I heard those stories too, and i wonder a little if maybe some of these cases are just gay?
Cross dressing if forbidden under Islam, but there is an obscure haddith which slightly supports transition. A man and wife do not see each others point of view, and are having an unhappy marriage, so god switches their bodies, and this vastly improves their relationship.
Being trans is possible not very well accepted in Muslim countries, but may be preferable to being gay, since you are at least sticking within the strict framework of gender roles, even if it wasn't the role you started out with. And it would at least be easier to hide, given the strict dress codes it may even be feasible to hide quite well during transition.
Quote from: metal angel on August 10, 2009, 03:45:49 AM. . . but being transexual is different, right?
Yes! Transition for "social advantage" is one of the major disqualifications in consideration for treatment (pain & simple) . . .
Now, could "social reform" be a whole 'nuther story (or is
that just one of it's many & varied inevitable outcomes) with, in other words, a "feminist" and "TS activist" (ie:MtF) not being quite the same thing at all? ;D
Quote from: metal angel on August 10, 2009, 03:45:49 AM
It's more than just not wanting to be your current gender, right?
No it's about being the gender you really are. Even if I'd been born with perfectly formed genitalia (I was born intersex), my real gender was never between my legs. My real gender has always been between my ears.
When I grew up, I did a lot of things that were considered girly and "normal", and then I did things that were "boy things", like played video games all day and played sports, roughhoused with the other boys in the neighborhood, and later found an interest in cars. It wasn't til society forced the words "male" and "female" onto my activities that I found anything strange about the things I liked. I wasn't being girly by playing with dolls with my friends, just like I wasn't being tomboyish by going out and racing remote controlled cars or skateboarding...I was just being me, and did what appealed to me.
So I'm not going to say that I don't appreciate not being patronized for liking something that socially I shouldn't ("you're a chick that works on cars?! WOW!") or being assumed that I'm strictly a butch lesbian for dressing like I like and feel comfortable in. It's nice being treated like one of the guys, and I LOVE dating as a guy (even with all the stresses of being discovered and the frustration of being pre-op means no happy funtimes) because for once it's okay and acceptable for me to act the way i'm comfortable.
But the thing is...I haven't changed anything more than outward appearance, and it works, so why change more? Because it's that self comfort that I'm striving for, to feel like I actually fit in my own body. I'm still me in my head, I'm just changing my appearance to fit that same person...and if we were in a society that was exactly opposite, and women had all the power and men were just drones, it wouldn't change the fact that that discomfort is still there.
Look at all we risk: we pay mass amounts of money and subject our bodies to injections, multiple surgeries, estrangement from our loved ones, and possible persecution by our communities. I would hope that none of us are doing this for something as trivial as not having to pay the tab at dinner or getting out of enlisting.
hrmmm... i wouldn't call getting out of entisting "trivial" man... i've got a plan of actuion for that, i won't go for citizenship in any country where it's compulsory, but if some WWIII starts i'll star with pacifist, if they don't buy that i'll go for crazy, and if they don't buy that i'll try to get knocked up, failing that... um... shoot myself in the foot?
but ok... probably wouldn't get a sex change just to get out of military service... but given i'm starting as female here, i think it would be counterproductive... so it's hard to relate to...
maybe war is more trivial than gender on some scales...
sorry... i think cold virus has got to my brian again...