Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hey guys and dolls,
I still look like a woman. (god, weird how the simple word 'woman' sends shivers of cold dysphoria down my spine)
I have no breasts, no hips, no ass, facial hair, and I still look female. Course it's only been 3 months, 3 weeks, and about 6 days since I started T and there have been loads of changes except for body and face shapes (the  hips/ass thing were already nonexistent beforehand).
My smell has changed, my skin has changed, my voice has changed, my facial and body hair have changed, hell even my pores have changed! but I still look female. Is my face and body shapes supposed to change to look more male or something?
And at the 4 month mark, I'm wondering if I'm ever going to look male. Are there any ftms who never pass?
I mean it seems almost ridiculous - other than being 5'5, I have no obvious female markers or 'tells'. I have a normal body shape, no hips, beer gut, not small or anything, medium build for a guy, thick skinned. What is making me look female?
The only thing is I'm a little chubby, maybe this is making me look feminine? I don't know.
I've been obsessing about my appearance a bit lately, wondering when I'm going to start passing. I know it's not the figure or the voice anymore. What it is, I do not know.
I normally wouldn't be so impatient, but I'm about to change the name and gender marker Monday and I'm going to feel weird all legally male and not passing.
It sounds like I'm complaining but I am really happy with all the changes T and surgery have brought. I just feel really weird in the middle like this. I just look like an androgynous, titless female. I don't even look masculine, no matter how closely clippered my hair gets.
Thanks for listening. Rant over.  :laugh:

A few people said to me that my skeleton looks like men's, despite other feminine features. I have not yet compared the thickness or shape of my skeleton with other men.

Barbie~~

I think that we are probably all so used to seeing our faces the way they've looked for our whole lives that even when we look at a vastly different appearance, those few tiny similarities (which aren't necessarily male or female, just familiar characteristics) make us think that our whole appearance looks exactly the same as it always did.

It's like how we see faces in clouds or in shadows on the stucco ceiling or in raindrops on the window. Our brains are hard-wired to see and recognize faces. When we meet someone new, oftentimes we look for similarities to other people we know "oh, he's got eyes very similar to Bob" or "her smile is like a cross between Janet and Shelly".

So when we look in the mirror and see a face that has a few similarities to one we've known our whole lives, our brain fills in the blanks and what we "see" is tinted by that recognition. I'm sure you look way less feminine than you think you do.

And if you're not passing, it could be that your internal view of "I just look like a woman" is seeping through to how you carry yourself and therefore, how the world sees you. How many times have we heard people in the passing threads saying "if you've gotta ask, you don't". If you think you look like a woman because of that recognition in the mirror, then you're more likely to come across as looking like a woman. Whereas if you think "I totally look like a guy" and feel confident as you walk about your life, people tend to gloss over the details. Like the guy who sir'd me today even though he heard my voice. I think I was just so much in "guy mode" at the time that he must've figured "oh, that dude's got a high voice".

I know a few bio-guys who have really feminine looking faces, but they have no boobs or hips, have a deep voice, have facial hair, etc. So people read them as a "guy with a feminine face" or "that pretty boy" at the worst. Most straight, cis, "normal" ::) people don't think "oh, that's a post-t transguy who's bio features are still showing through"... They figure "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, must be a duck... hmm, that duck has pink feathers" and not "looks like a duck and quacks like a duck but has pink feathers, must be a really short flamingo with duck feet and quacks and..." lol

Maybe if you stop trusting that damn mirror (it lies... lies, I say!) and just "be"... Maybe you'll feel your inner guy seeping out and melting away any ambiguity and everyone else will see that too. Just a theory though, ymmv. :)

Post a picture so we can see, maybe we can get your confidence up.

I know it hurts and makes you cringe, but you're not gonna be perfect at 3 months. Give yourself a break and you probably will pass eventually. And you'll start to just become a guy with really pretty facial structure. Thats not always bad :P Doesn't the face lose some of the fat on it after T is added? It will look better as time goes on and your features "Sharpen"

Nero, I'll PM you a pic tomorrow.  Have to go to work now and can't compile it.  It will be pre-T, 2 mos on T, 5 mos on T, 8 mos on T, and 11 mos on T.  I'm now 1 yr 1 mo on T but haven't taken a new pic yet.


Jay

:icon_hug:

Nero, my big handsome brother, I'm sorry but I just can't picture you as anything other than a guy, even when you had that profile pic of you before.  All I saw was a great and wonderful man in those eyes.

I'm not sure about how long T takes, the guys can talk to you about that, but your sister Jenn is here for you.  *big hugs* :icon_hug: :icon_hug:  ;)

If it makes you feel any better, I've been on T 2 days longer than you have, and I'm still ma'am-ed most of the time.   :(  But it's early days yet.  :)

Little Brother, you will always be a man to me, Hon.  And you are still young on T.  It will take time.  Just buck up and be the man.  ;D

I am still changing on E at 18 months.  Let the inner man shine thru and the world will see him.

Love Ya, Bro.  :icon_hug:
Janet

I'm not a big believer in the "People judge your gender by how much you believe in it" outlook, so I'll wager a few guesses at what's most likely your trouble:

A) How MUCH has your voice changed? Is it definitely, inarguably male, or has it just gotten deeper as a female voice? No matter how good you look, if you have a female voice (even a very low one), you're not going to pass as male. I still think voice is the most important thing (yes, just as much as breasts) in whether an FTM passes or not.

B) What haircut do you have? You said it's closely clipped - having a close-cut haircut can sometimes emphasize the female-shape of your skull, making you appear more as a stereotypical "dyke" (which many people are used to seeing and identifying nowadays) than a male. 


C) Related somewhat to B, where do you live? If you live somwhere like San Francisco, you're going to find it much more difficult to pass among the very-similar-looking lesbians and androgynes than you would in Oklahoma or Ohio.

D) This is't really something you can fix, but you probably have a very feminine facial structure. This won't ultimately prevent you from passing (with a beard, no one will notice), but it will prolong the in-between period.

I personally bet it's a combination of your facial bone structure and your voice. Some guys take over a year to develop a fully male voice - you're probably just one of the vocally unlucky ones. Still, it'd be quite helpful if you'd post a picture (or even better, a video).

Quote from: petzjazz on August 15, 2009, 10:49:20 PM
B) What haircut do you have? You said it's closely clipped - having a close-cut haircut can sometimes emphasize the female-shape of your skull, making you appear more as a stereotypical "dyke" (which many people are used to seeing and identifying nowadays) than a male. 

I totally agree with this actually. :)

Quote from: petzjazz on August 15, 2009, 10:49:20 PM
I'm not a big believer in the "People judge your gender by how much you believe in it" outlook, so I'll wager a few guesses at what's most likely your trouble:

A) How MUCH has your voice changed? Is it definitely, inarguably male, or has it just gotten deeper as a female voice? No matter how good you look, if you have a female voice (even a very low one), you're not going to pass as male. I still think voice is the most important thing (yes, just as much as breasts) in whether an FTM passes or not.

B) What haircut do you have? You said it's closely clipped - having a close-cut haircut can sometimes emphasize the female-shape of your skull, making you appear more as a stereotypical "dyke" (which many people are used to seeing and identifying nowadays) than a male. 


C) Related somewhat to B, where do you live? If you live somwhere like San Francisco, you're going to find it much more difficult to pass among the very-similar-looking lesbians and androgynes than you would in Oklahoma or Ohio.

D) This is't really something you can fix, but you probably have a very feminine facial structure. This won't ultimately prevent you from passing (with a beard, no one will notice), but it will prolong the in-between period.

I personally bet it's a combination of your facial bone structure and your voice. Some guys take over a year to develop a fully male voice - you're probably just one of the vocally unlucky ones. Still, it'd be quite helpful if you'd post a picture (or even better, a video).

I think you're right. It's probably a combination of all of them. Don't live in SF, but still don't pass. I do get some different kind of looks though, as if people staring a little more, maybe having to think about it. But that could be my imagination as well.

On another note, has anyone known or seen an ftm who never ended up passing?

Nero,

You seem too much pessimistic.

Probably a recent photo of you would help others suggest something to change your looking.

Barbie~~

Dear Bro, to give you a smile I hope.

Mirror, mirror on the wall, this is Nero; will I ever pass at all?

'course you will ->-bleeped-<-, just stop asking me dumb questions.

:laugh: Sorry bro. Take care. 3 months on T and not looking like Hulk Hogan. Does that mean that after 3 on E I'm not going to look like Elle?

Take care my friend, sorry about the Aussie humour

Cindy

Quote from: Nero on August 15, 2009, 11:23:02 PM
On another note, has anyone known or seen an ftm who never ended up passing?

I do know one guy who has been on T for 4 or 5 years, and his voice hasn't completely dropped, so he doesn't pass 100%.  Plus he's a bit over weight, and much of the fat is still sitting in a feminine position.  That was the same issue for the one FtM in Loren Cameron's book who didn't really look 100% male to me, as well. (Never heard him speak, so I wouldn't know about that.)

It happens, but it's rare.

I know another guy who had voice issues for a couple of years before he started passing.  He said the best thing he ever did was to get the help of a voice coach.  By the time I met him he passed completely. (In fact, he was kinda cute.  ;) )

But, as others have said, it's probably a bit early to be worrying about it.  (Says the guy who frets constantly over the same thing  :D )

I still say that a good portion of passing is your personal outlook.
The day you see a man in the mirror, and let go completely of the need to see feminine aspects, a shift will occur, subtle but none the less it will, and a man will walk out the door, and none will question the fact that he's a man.

(Worded poorly I know, but I have a migrane atm so I CBA to reword it)

I my experience, it depends a lot also on your confidence.
I'm pre-T, but I usually pass.
Some weeks ago, there was a period in which I was really depressed, I did lost my confidence and self-esteem and... well, I had the same haircut I have now, I dressed the same clothes, and I was madam'ed all the time.
Now I have again confidence and don't have problems with passing (except when I go in gay bars, because there are a lot of manly lesbians :P).
So, well, don't ask yourself if you look like a man or a woman. Just go, just behave as a man, just show confidence. And if someone mistakes you for a woman just correct him. :)

I must confess to being somewhat irritated by some replies here. 'Confidence' may work for someone who already looks masculine enough which I don't.
Really guys, if that worked we wouldn't be in this condition. No amount of confidence is going to make people see what's not there.
I've been secure in my maleness for many years now. It's nothing to do with that.

I can empathize on why it would make you feel uncomfortable but you have to consider how manly do little boys who are only 4months into puberty look?

Hi Nero,
It's been said already, but you  really haven't been on T for long and it does take time.  You see yourself in the mirror every day, as such, any changes that do occur you may not even notice.  Maybe take a picture at the beginning of each month and make comparisons. You're more likely to spot subtle changes.  That's like me looking in the mirror everyday at my body shape, breast development, etc.  I know very well I won't see changes from day to day.  Just eager for things to happen.  It does take time... Hugs.

Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2009, 07:25:36 AM
I must confess to being somewhat irritated by some replies here. 'Confidence' may work for someone who already looks masculine enough which I don't.
Really guys, if that worked we wouldn't be in this condition. No amount of confidence is going to make people see what's not there.
I've been secure in my maleness for many years now. It's nothing to do with that.

Sorry, I didn't want to offend you. Maybe I chose wrong words, I apologize again because english is not my mother language and I don't do enough pratice.
Anyway, what I meant is that, now, you don't have boobs anymore, you started T some months ago, you should like a young boy. There are young boy that, before puberty, are mistaken a lot for girl because they look feminine. I think that you just shouldn't worry too much about this.
I think you will need just a few months until you'll start to pass frequently. :)

Quote from: Hector on August 16, 2009, 03:35:38 PM
Sorry, I didn't want to offend you. Maybe I chose wrong words, I apologize again because english is not my mother language and I don't do enough pratice.
Anyway, what I meant is that, now, you don't have boobs anymore, you started T some months ago, you should like a young boy. There are young boy that, before puberty, are mistaken a lot for girl because they look feminine. I think that you just shouldn't worry too much about this.
I think you will need just a few months until you'll start to pass frequently. :)

It's okay.  :) Maybe I'm too old to look like a young boy at this point.  :laugh:

Maybe its more than just looking the part, how much are you doing to be the part?  Are you out doing guy stuff?  Working?  Living a male life?  Or are you just dressing like a guy and doing the rest in your head?

I once heard of a surgeon who said he'd never had a patient who complained about healing too fast.* I'm sure you'll do fine, but it will take a while.

*I think I read it in a novel or something, actually

Quote from: tekla on August 16, 2009, 03:50:08 PM
Maybe its more than just looking the part, how much are you doing to be the part?  Are you out doing guy stuff?  Working?  Living a male life?  Or are you just dressing like a guy and doing the rest in your head?

what's guy stuff? what's a male life? i work, but so do women.

Quote from: heatherrose on August 16, 2009, 04:23:51 PM

THAT is the original question, that we first asked ourselves.

Isn't it?

I don't know. I have no idea what's under the hood of my car and I don't watch sports. Uh oh.

Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2009, 04:26:43 PM
I don't know. I have no idea what's under the hood of my car and I don't watch sports. Uh oh.

Well, I'm pre-T so I can't really be much of experienced help but you're going through a second puberty right? I think all adolescent guys worry about being "man" enough.  It would probably help your confidence to have some knowledge on stereotypical 'guy" stuff like sports and cars, just so you know you've got something to say when the macho man sat next to you at the bus stop strikes up a conversation with you.

My dad is definitely a man and comfortable enough with it, and at 6'2" no one would think otherwise, but he still feels the pressure to keep up with football and hockey even though he could care less.  Unfortunately it's kind of part of being a guy in this society

I know what your doing wrong Nero. It occurred to me while listening to a neighbor talking to his friend just a little while ago. You need to use the word F***K, S**T, and C**K sucker after ever non explicative word... Oh wait... that's only for the uncultured men.  :laugh: Never mined, I think your going to look just fine.

You've seen what I looked like after only 3 months on HRT... not very pretty at all. It's taken me over a year to feel OK in public. 

Quote from: petzjazz on August 15, 2009, 10:49:20 PM
I'm not a big believer in the "People judge your gender by how much you believe in it" outlook, so I'll wager a few guesses at what's most likely your trouble

I disagree with this. I've gone out as male and passed more lately as a man/guy even and I'm pre-T (as opposed to passing as a young male/boy). Lately I've gotten better on having a male tone and like many say here that is more important than voice pitch. I'm 5'5 just as well Nero, still have fem facial features, no facial hair etc. The only time I don't pass as male or confuse people is when I have no confidence and accidentally make my voice sound girly. When I go out I go in a male mindset, not thinking about how girly I must be, but thinking and being male, there's no problems with 'passing'.

Quote from: northy on August 16, 2009, 06:31:30 PM
I disagree with this. I've gone out as male and passed more lately as a man/guy even and I'm pre-T (as opposed to passing as a young male/boy). Lately I've gotten better on having a male tone and like many say here that is more important than voice pitch. I'm 5'5 just as well Nero, still have fem facial features, no facial hair etc. The only time I don't pass as male or confuse people is when I have no confidence and accidentally make my voice sound girly. When I go out I go in a male mindset, not thinking about how girly I must be, but thinking and being male, there's no problems with 'passing'.

That may possibly work for some people who just need one thing to tip them in the male category but again, it's kind of insulting to suggest that someone this doesn't work for isn't using the right 'mindset.' A person can be 'thinking ' as male as they want, and that's not going to alter people's corneas.
Not to mention that someone who is clearly an adult is going to have a more difficult time passing as a prepubescent boy which is what most pre and early T guys pass as. If you pass pre-T more power to you, but don't assume your good fortune means someone else is doing it 'wrong'.

Nero, this takes time.  Please be patient.  This is a gradual process, and I have seen plenty of guys go through it, but it can take over a year.  Its gradual, it doesn't happen overnight. 

Early on with HRT, there is a thing for all trans folks a desire for things to happen now.  But the truth is ones body determines its own pace, and it requires patience.  Don't worry about what you see now, think what you will see a year, two years from now.  You will start to look more like an adult as time passes, don't stress too much. This is a long term process, remember most natal men take 5-7 years to go through puberty.  It will probably take two to three years for you to start looking your age. Be patient, its my best advice.

Just for chuckles, try one of the fake beard things.  And see what you think.. I'll bet that you don't look near as girly as you think.  After the facial hair comes in try growing a beard, you will at least know what you will look like.



Janet

Quote from: Janet Lynn on August 16, 2009, 09:22:01 PM
I'll bet that you don't look near as girly as you think. 


Janet

I look like a dyke. I know this because now women constantly check me out.

Gee.  You do know that women check out men too, right?

Try wearing a 'A' line t-shirt.  There will be no doubt that you are male.


Janet

It takes some guys a long ass time before they pass.  My buddy, who has tiny, delicate girly features took almost 1.5 yrs to pass.  I know it sucks, but you just have to hang on and wait.

I've watched quite a few people documenting their progress on T. Some comfortable with their outcomes. Some not so much. But from what I've seen they all look pretty damn much like men after a couple years.
Of course I'm pre-T and have no personal experience. And there is always the exception. I just haven't seen it yet.

thanks for the encouragement, guys and girls. this in between stage is creeping me out. i see peole looking at me weird.

The inbetween sucks in such extreme magnitudes that words cannot do it justice.  My advice?  Look forward to each and every shot, each and every change and the day when the scale finally tips and try to forget about today, tomorrow, and next week.

What are older sisters and your buds for.  Hang in there Big Guy.

Big Sister :icon_hug:

Janet

I came across a photo of me today at about 4-5 months on E.  Oh lord I looked BAD back then.  really bad.  The changes take time and really take a year to see major changes. We all want it now, I know I did, but it does take time for the body to shift.  Your doing well so hang in there.

Beni 

Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2009, 09:14:15 PM
That may possibly work for some people who just need one thing to tip them in the male category but again, it's kind of insulting to suggest that someone this doesn't work for isn't using the right 'mindset.' A person can be 'thinking ' as male as they want, and that's not going to alter people's corneas.
Not to mention that someone who is clearly an adult is going to have a more difficult time passing as a prepubescent boy which is what most pre and early T guys pass as.

There are things we pick up on subconsciously that are taught to us over the years.  Someone who is not of legal drinking age but looks old enough to buy may can walk into a liquor store and pick up a six pack without being carded if they are confident they pass as being of legal age.  However, if someone looks away, acts nervous, can't keep eye contact, they'll get carded.

When I was 39 I decided to try this out.  I hadn't been carded in years.  As soon as I walked up to the register I looked down, fidgeted and acted like I had no confidence.  The guy immediately asked for my ID.  Of course, I was elated but I was also surprised how easy it was.

I pass now (as female, not being under 21 :D) not because I look typically female but because I have no worries about how I'm gendered.  And because I'm confident I don't give them any reason to question themselves and therefore take a closer look at me.  And I believe anyone taking a close look will clock me.

The thing is, this takes time and you have to have successes.  When someone approaches you and you see beard shadow you will immediately gender them male.  If they have boobs you'll gender them female.  And when either speaks you will gender them by their voice.  We all do this in a couple of seconds.  Know what you have and make it work for you.

Loren Cameron is very lean and well toned.  He's bald and has facial hair.  Even though he is pretty small, no one would gender him female because he accentuates his male qualities.  That's an important step to getting some of those successes that will lead to gaining confidence. 

The other thing to do is avoid is going overboard.  When I used to get all girlied up I had the hardest time passing.  Now I'm a t-shirt & shorts girl and I never see the funny looks.  I accentuate my boobs, eliminate any sign of facial hair and throw on some light makeup and I blend in with all the other women.  Put me in a dress and heels and I'd probably get some funny looks.

Keep positive, be patient and let the T do its magic.  In the meantime accentuate your male stuff and see what works best. Remember, it takes a while to transition, at least two years.  So don't get discouraged!  ;D

Julie

There is a guy who has a one year montage on youtube, I think it's Audin33 and he definitely cahnged more at teh end of the year. I just keep watching it when I get discouraged. This inbetween is not the best place to be for sure!
Myles

to all touting this 'mind over matter' stuff, I appreciate the sentiment, i really do. but really, a genetic guy doesn't get ma'amed when he has a bad day. a genetic girl doesn't get sirred if she thinks she looks unfeminine that day.
men and women have a multitude of physical characteristics, some of which our eyes are trained to see that we don't even think about. if enough of them fall into the male category, that person is gendered male and vice versa. and a person's gendered appearance is based more on being 'not male' than being female. not to mention people are ma'amed or sirred often before having much of an opportunity to interact as male or female.
if i think i'm the queen of england, do people see a crown on my head?

Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2009, 11:33:01 PM
to all touting this 'mind over matter' stuff, I appreciate the sentiment, i really do. but really, a genetic guy doesn't get ma'amed when he has a bad day. a genetic girl doesn't get sirred if she thinks she looks unfeminine that day.
men and women have a multitude of physical characteristics, some of which our eyes are trained to see that we don't even think about. if enough of them fall into the male category, that person is gendered male and vice versa. and a person's gendered appearance is based more on being 'not male' than being female. not to mention people are ma'amed or sirred often before having much of an opportunity to interact as male or female.
if i think i'm the queen of england, do people see a crown on my head?

The most hopeless cause in the world is to try to directly change someone's opinion, so getting those believers in the "mind over matter" passing theory to rescind their advice is a lost cause. As someone who already agrees with you, I recommend you let the matter drop. You know that you don't at present have the physical features necessary to pass and that no amount of "believing in yourself" will change that, so be patient and let the T work its spell. It oftens happens with FTMs that at a certain point they abruptly begin to pass regularly - a transguy might not pass at all at week 11 but suddenly be sirred everywhere at week 12. It probably has something to do with the abrupt way some transguys' voices drop. It happened that way to me, and it could to you any day now.

Yes, that mind over matter thing is complete BS.  It's not likely to help you pass, but exuding more confidence may be key in being respected.  There seem to be many members of this forum who confuse the two.

Quote from: petzjazz on August 17, 2009, 01:00:51 AM

The most hopeless cause in the world is to try to directly change someone's opinion, so getting those believers in the "mind over matter" passing theory to rescind their advice is a lost cause. As someone who already agrees with you, I recommend you let the matter drop. You know that you don't at present have the physical features necessary to pass and that no amount of "believing in yourself" will change that, so be patient and let the T work its spell. It oftens happens with FTMs that at a certain point they abruptly begin to pass regularly - a transguy might not pass at all at week 11 but suddenly be sirred everywhere at week 12. It probably has something to do with the abrupt way some transguys' voices drop. It happened that way to me, and it could to you any day now.

yeah, i tend to be a bit touchy about the whole passing issue. I've been out and transitioning for over 3 years and unable to go on T until just this year. during those 3 years, i tried everything I could think of, but no combination of haircut, clothes, or attitude would cut it. couldn't really move forward.

well, the voice has dropped some, but still female, so hope you're right and it will drop more soon.

Changes will happen through out your life.  And who knows you may have one of those deep base voices that booms out.

Janet

:icon_archery: :icon_blahblah:

Just remember Nero, what you see in the mirror is immaterial in the long run, you are biased in your views.

Perception is everything and one of the things I had to learn during transition is that others may percieve you as male whereas you percieve yourself as female (on looks alone).

Even as the outside world starts to see that man emerge, you may not see that, but remember that its what other people perceive and not you.

Buffy

Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2009, 09:37:58 PM
thanks for the encouragement, guys and girls. this in between stage is creeping me out. i see peole looking at me weird.

People looking at you weird is the stage just before passing, so that is a good sign.
I hated that stage, too.  In WalMart, I clearly would CREEP people out at the checkout.  I wasn't especially "beautiful" at all before my T, but I also wasn't used to that response from people.

I pass easily all the time now, at over 2.5 yrs on T.  Now it stresses people if they didn't know I have transgender history, to tell them that I was female.  They can get really thrown by that, which has also been stressful at times, albeit a stress i prefer to not passing.

I don't always pass on the phone still, though.

I have to say the worst part of transitioning was that inbetween time, when people were creeped out by me, some of them, and i was so eager to be further along, and so worried i might never "pass".  I was dealing with a lot of brain changes from the T that also, looking back, made it harder to process thoughts for awhile, as the way I processed thought was changing.  Someone told me it was okay to just stay home more for awhile, if I was getting too stressed being in public.  Someone else told me to just try to have more patience, that's why this is called a transition, it's not a black and white change.  Both were wise, and helpful views.

I suggest trying for patience, and being really gentle with yourself.  Either you will pass someday, or you won't.  Most ftms end up passing, I think, within a few years.  It is likely you will gather more patience and inner resources during this time, And, the bonus is that your brain changes will eventually stabilize, so you will be feeling more strong internally to deal with whatever the public sees.

It's okay to hate this time, if that's your truth.  Just take care of yourself.  Sometimes, it's important to have people around giving you compassion.  this is not always an easy path, but it saved my life to walk it.

Blessings.
Joseph

Quote from: Katherine on August 16, 2009, 09:18:24 AM
Hi Nero,
It's been said already, but you  really haven't been on T for long and it does take time.  You see yourself in the mirror every day, as such, any changes that do occur you may not even notice. 

There's some real truth in this.  I was complaining to my doctor, when I went in to have my levels checked, about my voice not dropping very much, and he said, "Well, I can definitely hear a difference.  It's the same thing as when I see people's babies.  They don't notice how much the child has grown, because they're with him every day.  But for me it's like, 'Wow!  He's gotten so big!'"

Quote from: petzjazz on August 17, 2009, 01:00:51 AM

The most hopeless cause in the world is to try to directly change someone's opinion, so getting those believers in the "mind over matter" passing theory to rescind their advice is a lost cause. As someone who already agrees with you, I recommend you let the matter drop. You know that you don't at present have the physical features necessary to pass and that no amount of "believing in yourself" will change that, so be patient and let the T work its spell. It oftens happens with FTMs that at a certain point they abruptly begin to pass regularly - a transguy might not pass at all at week 11 but suddenly be sirred everywhere at week 12. It probably has something to do with the abrupt way some transguys' voices drop. It happened that way to me, and it could to you any day now.

As one of the people who was suggesting that it could be how he viewed himself, I'd like to respond to this ^.

I did actually reconsider my viewpoint once I had heard more. I apologized to Nero for my assumptions in a PM, and I realized that I had learned something. Yes, I think that Mister has a point that I was confusing that with confidence (although I can only speak for myself, and not the others who feel/felt that way).

The reason I'm explaining this here, is that I think it's important for us all to remember that the discussions on these boards are a great place to talk about different topics, learn about each others' experiences, and form or change our opinions based on what we read here and how we process it. I feel that saying "The most hopeless cause in the world is to try to directly change someone's opinion, so getting those believers in the 'mind over matter' passing theory to rescind their advice is a lost cause." is a little bit limiting to what we can and do accomplish here.

If you're referring to something as innate as someone's faith or value systems, then yes, maybe trying to change their mind is going to be hopeless (although, it does still happen at time). But when it comes to a place like this where most of us are simultaneously looking for answers, and testing out the answers we feel we have, then I think we should be more positive about continuing open discussion instead of just writing it off as a "lost cause". Maybe I'm not the only one who's mind was changed, or at least their viewpoint maybe expanded to include other possibilities?

That being said, I'm not trying to come down on you personally petzjazz, just hoping that as a group we can consider this place to be "safe" for experimenting with different theories, and we can admit when we've learned something or grown from what others have said. Isn't that the whole point of a support forum?

So how much of what you see in a mirror is a reflection of reality, and how much of it is a reflection of your own mind?

How much of what we look like is a mere physical representation, and how much of it is what we are bringing out of ourselves that is also reflected in that?

Transition is not not an end unto itself, but only a beginning to get you on the road to where you want to be, dream about being, and think you ought to be.

So, what is it that you want to see when you look into the mirror?  What is it that being male or female would give you that you didn't have in the first place?  Where is it you want to be, and who is that person who is doing that thing? 

Failure at one thing does not presuppose that you would be successful at its opposite, something lots of people find out the hard way.  So what is it you want to see looking back at you from that mirror?

And the sports and mechanics stuff is largely crap, the real male deals are power plays: law, finance, and politics.  Sports are only for people with no real access to the important stuff.  The only people a sports score should matter to are those that are being paid to play the game, and only for that reason.  And mechanics is an aptitude not a gendered deal.

Quote from: NES_junkie_James on August 17, 2009, 12:33:13 PM
As one of the people who was suggesting that it could be how he viewed himself, I'd like to respond to this ^.

I did actually reconsider my viewpoint once I had heard more. I apologized to Nero for my assumptions in a PM, and I realized that I had learned something. Yes, I think that Mister has a point that I was confusing that with confidence (although I can only speak for myself, and not the others who feel/felt that way).

The reason I'm explaining this here, is that I think it's important for us all to remember that the discussions on these boards are a great place to talk about different topics, learn about each others' experiences, and form or change our opinions based on what we read here and how we process it. I feel that saying "The most hopeless cause in the world is to try to directly change someone's opinion, so getting those believers in the 'mind over matter' passing theory to rescind their advice is a lost cause." is a little bit limiting to what we can and do accomplish here.

If you're referring to something as innate as someone's faith or value systems, then yes, maybe trying to change their mind is going to be hopeless (although, it does still happen at time). But when it comes to a place like this where most of us are simultaneously looking for answers, and testing out the answers we feel we have, then I think we should be more positive about continuing open discussion instead of just writing it off as a "lost cause". Maybe I'm not the only one who's mind was changed, or at least their viewpoint maybe expanded to include other possibilities?

That being said, I'm not trying to come down on you personally petzjazz, just hoping that as a group we can consider this place to be "safe" for experimenting with different theories, and we can admit when we've learned something or grown from what others have said. Isn't that the whole point of a support forum?

hey James.
I don't mind other viewpoints or suggestions at all. I just think we have to be careful not to assume what works for us will work for others.

Quote from: Nero on August 17, 2009, 12:56:42 PM
hey James.
I don't mind other viewpoints or suggestions at all. I just think we have to be careful not to assume what works for us will work for others.

Yeah, I didn't think you mind the viewpoints and stuff. I just wanted to comment that we should all keep an open dialogue about this, and other topics, instead of saying "lost cause, they'll never get it" and sticking to opposite sides of the proverbial playing field. Maybe I'm an idealist, but I want us all to be able to say "hey, I never saw it that way, thanks for your input" and I think some of us do, but some are more apt to say "that person sees it differently than I do and will never change".

In a way I was defending my right to change my opinion, and I was also saying "let's all play nice kids". Sorry, it's the parent in me... Can't shut him up. lol :D

Quote from: tekla on August 17, 2009, 12:46:02 PM
So how much of what you see in a mirror is a reflection of reality, and how much of it is a reflection of your own mind?

I don't know. It is very hard to see oneself accurately when we're so used to the same reflection always saying the same thing. 

QuoteHow much of what we look like is a mere physical representation, and how much of it is what we are bringing out of ourselves that is also reflected in that?

Hard to say. We may convince people we're more attractive than we are by exuding confidence or other more fluid attributes but I don't believe confidence or self belief can defy 20/20 vision in terms of gender.

Quote

So, what is it that you want to see when you look into the mirror? 

Somebody who isn't mistaken for female. I'm already vastly pleased with the changes so far. I just want others to see me as I see me.

QuoteWhat is it that being male or female would give you that you didn't have in the first place? 

Comfort in my body. Comfort from dysphoria. The knowing that I am being as true to myself as I can be.

QuoteWhere is it you want to be, and who is that person who is doing that thing? 

Someone healthy, free of illness and dysphoria, and working toward a better life.

QuoteFailure at one thing does not presuppose that you would be successful at its opposite, something lots of people find out the hard way.  So what is it you want to see looking back at you from that mirror?

Again, this is really not about deciding being the other gender is better or easier or anything like that. My transition is about being true to something deep inside, something that transcends gender roles and regulations altogether. It's about my body and how it doesn't fit and the inauthenticity I feel living as female. It's not even about masculinity - as I could basically be however I wanted as a female. It's not really something that lends easily to words.

Quote

And the sports and mechanics stuff is largely crap, the real male deals are power plays: law, finance, and politics.  Sports are only for people with no real access to the important stuff.  The only people a sports score should matter to are those that are being paid to play the game, and only for that reason.  And mechanics is an aptitude not a gendered deal.

I'm afraid as soon as i'm seen as male, I'll be expected to recite the latest scoreboard in every casual encounter.  :laugh:

Quote from: Nero on August 17, 2009, 01:29:29 PMI'm afraid as soon as i'm seen as male, I'll be expected to recite the latest scoreboard in every casual encounter.  :laugh:

I don't, but then again, everyone thinks I have the G-virus. (Gay)

Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2009, 09:37:58 PM
thanks for the encouragement, guys and girls. this in between stage is creeping me out. i see peole looking at me weird.

*hug
I know EXACTLY what you mean. And also whenever people JOKINGLY go "DUde" and stuff. Its fun at first but so... Condescending. That happens with me. They're like, "OH we're ALL GIRLS in here, ah hahahahahahaahha"
"-_-; is that supposed to be sarcastic. ..."

Oh locals...

I'll be expected to recite the latest scoreboard in every casual encounter.

All you have to really know is how the home town team is doing.  And then, only in vague terms like "well next year will be better" (always the right remark for a Giants fan). 

Quote from: tekla on August 17, 2009, 02:36:30 PM
I'll be expected to recite the latest scoreboard in every casual encounter.

All you have to really know is how the home town team is doing.  And then, only in vague terms like "well next year will be better" (always the right remark for a Giants fan).

thanks for the tip.

Yeah, if you're in Ohio as I recall your either in Tribe/Browns/Cavs territory, or Reds/Bengals or perhaps even Tigers/Lions - That's all you have to follow.  That and Ohio State football I guess.

And guys talk about that stuff so they don't get into fistfight about anything important like girls or money or political junk.  I ended up teaching basic football 101 to a few girls once upon a time because when they got in that basic male executive deal they wanted to participate in the conversation and not be excluded, of course that's back when the 9ers were winning - as a rule, the more 'your' teams suck, the less people talk about them.

I have enough genuine interests that are "stereotypically male" that I won't bother pretending to like sports. lol (But each to their own, not saying anyone else shouldn't do that  :angel:).

If a situation comes up and someone gives me grief for not knowing about sports, I'll start talking about power tools, Discovery channel, beer, cigars, my great love of boobs, my passion for grilling thick slabs of bloody meat on my BBQ, camping/fishing/general outdoorsman stuff, tasteless jokes, playing frisbee in the park with a bunch of buds, and yes video games, and I'm sure they'll be able to overlook my disinterest in sports.

That being said, I've shared each of those passions with similarly-inclined women as well (yeah, I've known some awesome chicks), so just because I have those interests doesn't mean I'm more or less male than anyone else.

I also like to paint, read, cook, and cry at sappy movies, and abuse the use of emoticons :D, all of which are stereotypically more female. And there are plenty of men and women who don't like the things they are socially "expected" to like.

That's one of the things I've learned in the past little while (often with help from you guys and gals here): I can be a well-rounded guy who enjoys activities from every point along the supposed feminine-masculine spectrum and it doesn't make a speck of difference to my "male-ness". Whee! Ain't self-discovery fun folks? ;D

Quote from: tekla on August 17, 2009, 02:57:56 PM
Yeah, if you're in Ohio as I recall your either in Tribe/Browns/Cavs territory, or Reds/Bengals or perhaps even Tigers/Lions - That's all you have to follow.  That and Ohio State football I guess.

And guys talk about that stuff so they don't get into fistfight about anything important like girls or money or political junk.  I ended up teaching basic football 101 to a few girls once upon a time because when they got in that basic male executive deal they wanted to participate in the conversation and not be excluded, of course that's back when the 9ers were winning - as a rule, the more 'your' teams suck, the less people talk about them.

yeah, all most anybody here cares about is state. course i always was for michigan just to be difficult.  :laugh:

I must confess I never quite got that "I'm a huge fan of a school I couldn't get into on a bet."  It almost, sorta makes sense in places like Nebraska or Kansas, or Iowa where they don't have real sports teams, but in Ohio or Michigan, which has at least one, if not two of every pro sports franchise it just seems silly to me.  Really, if your degree is not from Ann Arbor or Columbus, what difference does the performance of the Wolverines or the Buckeyes make? 

Um, probably because most places in Ohio are boring as hell?

Quote from: Mister on August 17, 2009, 05:43:37 PM
Um, probably because most places in Ohio are boring as hell?

eh don't be talking bout my state.  :laugh:

Quote from: Nero on August 17, 2009, 05:46:07 PM
eh don't be talking bout my state.  :laugh:

I mean no harm.  I only speak from my experience on many trips through Slo-hio.  :)

Yeah, but Cleveland and Cincin both have huge sports franchises, some of them are even good from time to time.  So the Buckeye deal kind of escapes me, particularly, as I said, when it comes from people who didn't go there, or often, from people who could not have even got in had they given lifetime BJs to the acceptance committee.  Personally, I always liked it back when Georgetown was very popular due to the B-ball team and you had kids running around in G-Town stuff who would have been arrested if they had even walked on that campus.

I always root for the Bengals.  They have the coolest helmets.  ;)  (Or, at least they did back in 1981 or so, the last time I saw them on television.)

Quote from: Jamie-o on August 18, 2009, 06:31:41 AM
I always root for the Bengals.  They have the coolest helmets.  ;)  (Or, at least they did back in 1981 or so, the last time I saw them on television.)

Browns. Course this was back when they were good.

Heh heh.  I live right on the border between WI and MN.  One of our Supervisors is a Vikings fan and the other is a Packers fan.  You should see them eyeing each other as they pass by in their opposing team jerseys every Sunday during football season.  ;D  What I find fascinating is that, while everywhere you look at my place of employment there are purple and white and green and gold jerseys, almost nobody actually talks about football, other than to say, "Go Packers!" or "Go Vikings".  Well, no, I tell a lie.  There's been a lot of talk about Bret Favre, but that's just because he's played for both teams.  (But not like that, to my knowledge.  >:-) )

I bet you could use "I'm not really a <their sport> guy, I'm more of an <other sport> guy" for casual smalltalk, especially when tweaked so <other sport> was one that's season had ended ;).

I do like F1, and the occasional bit of IPL Twenty20 (Go KKR! Team of pure awesome!  ;D). I find that's more than enough to serve the purposes of sport discussions. You don't have to know about every popular sport of the area to get by.

Sadly, conversations about this F1 season have mainly consisted of me saying "I've been way too busy to watch lately - who's on top?"... which is also a good way to get though sports related conversations in and of itself.

Quote from: Teknoir on August 18, 2009, 07:43:40 AM
I bet you could use "I'm not really a <their sport> guy, I'm more of an <other sport> guy" for casual smalltalk, especially when tweaked so <other sport> was one that's season had ended ;).

I do like F1, and the occasional bit of IPL Twenty20 (Go KKR! Team of pure awesome!  ;D). I find that's more than enough to serve the purposes of sport discussions. You don't have to know about every popular sport of the area to get by.

Sadly, conversations about this F1 season have mainly consisted of me saying "I've been way too busy to watch lately - who's on top?"... which is also a good way to get though sports related conversations in and of itself.

Erm... What are F1 and IPL Twenty20?  ???  (Yeah.  Really not a sports guy.  :icon_redface:)

Quote from: Jamie-o on August 18, 2009, 08:44:42 AM
Erm... What are F1 and IPL Twenty20?  ???  (Yeah.  Really not a sports guy.  :icon_redface:)

It's all good. Chalk it up to country difference :) I'm not a sports guy myself by any means, it's very much an occasional thing.

F1 as in Formula 1 racing, and IPL Twenty/20 as in Indian Premier League cricket.

Imagine cricket on rampant capitalism. It's very funny. There's insane amounts of pay for the players (and motorbikes), sponsorships, brightly coloured uniforms and teams (complete with team songs), fireworks, and dancing girls. Also, a game is over in about 2 - 4 hours instead of a week. Oh, and nobody playing is taking it seriously.

It's the sort of thing you watch at a friends house while drinking and generally having a good laugh :laugh:.


On Topic -

Female looking -> Weird looking -> Male looking.

That's how it goes. Sucks to be stuck in the middle, but hang in there.

At least you're on the path you want to be on now. You're no longer waiting. You're doing. Doing gets you places.

I plan to take photos at least once a week to keep me sane. Then, I'll put 'em up against the photos I take now. You don't notice the small changes in something you see everyday - so you need to create your own "lapsed time".