Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I just read this page which I found on some link here:
http://www.heartcorps.com/journeys-end/4.html (http://www.heartcorps.com/journeys-end/4.html)

I am curious about the double leg crossing! can anyone do it and upload a picture please?

I can cross the legs and then pass the leg which is on top under the lower part of the bottom leg.. but I am not sure if it's done like they mean.

If at least one person can do it properly and show me - that will help a lot!!!

Also if some of the guys here can't do it at all - I'd be interested to hear that :D

Yes, that's what she means, but what she claims is complete BS. I don't think I've ever seen a woman do that in real life (only in a picture in a body language book). I just tried it and found it incredibly difficult and unbelievably uncomfortable. Having a male or female mind would have nothing whatsoever to do with joint flexibility, so either I have a very interesting joint pattern for a bio-female or she's full of it. My cis-female best friend (who was here while I was reading this) also just tried it at my request and couldn't do it at all without using her hand to push her foot back under her leg. Most women (in Small Town Where-I-Live, anyway) cross their legs once, at the knee. Most men do not cross their legs at all or cross them at the ankles.

Thanks for the reply! :)

I uploaded a picture of what I was doing, I am not sure if it's what she meant.

Eww my legs! @@..

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi667.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv36%2FgrrUserUnavailable%2FPicture184.jpg&hash=0a003c78a741338987eea2281a36ac099c247481)

That page does look like a load of complete BS... but I can do the double leg crossing thing.  Definitely never seen anyone else do that tho.

The page IMO is BS. I've been doing double crossings all my life. Even when as a guy. No one has ever made a comment. Where I am, guys are always crossing their legs at the knee, in pubs everywhere. Obese people cannot but that's another problem. I double cross my legs 'cos it feels comfy, when I'm in my desk chair I even scoot myself around the office with legs double crossed and locked. No one has ever made a comment. Didn't know it meant anything.

I suppose all females that cannot double cross their legs are no longer female? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Cindy: The double jointed

Well, I can't do it at all.  I guess that makes me a super-stud.  ;)

That looks like the most uncomfortable way of sitting I've ever seen.  :laugh:

Isn't it odd? I find it very comfortable. In fact I adopt it as my norml position, particularly when concentrating. Yet, I cannot sit with my legs under my backside; al. a. legs as a cushion.

Cindy

It's not uncomfortable and it can look better.. I was trying to get my web cam to work and into position so I moved :D

But it does seem to be like a very un-accurate thing, so far I had about 5 guys (normal guys) trying the arm thingy and they all came at an angle O_o

Just looking at that turns my brain inside-out! :laugh:

Nup, I could never cross my legs at the knees, but always with one ankle resting on the other knee (I seem to remember Dad sitting like that a lot when I was really young, and seeing Mum do the knee-cross thing, and always wanted to copy Dad and the other adult men more...hm...). I remember at high school in one particular class we didn't have desks, and so there'd be a line of girls in skirts all with their legs crossed at the knee to support their books, and then me in the middle with one trousered ankle resting horizontally on the other trousered knee. :laugh:

The main point, though, is that no, I can't do that double-leg-crossing-mind-bending thing. :eusa_boohoo:

I can not do that thing with my legs... but this seems really silly anyways.

uuuh... one of my elbows does the out-bend, and the other goes straight. So I wonder what that'd make me?  :laugh: (no, I've never broken either of them)
Also, I used to sit like that as a little kid all the time. Not so comfortable now, though.

My brother, who was born male, has elbows that "out-bend", and so do mine.  For us, it's just genetic.  I don't know about the theory of it being only in women.  I think it's just rare in general.  Then again, I don't entirely understand the term "out-bend"; if my brother and I hold our arms forwards, palms facing upwards, we seem double-jointed in that we can stretch the arm out to the side, and thus the elbow.  Not entirely sure what else it could be, other than the theory that, in female skeletons, the elbows bend outwards to accommodate the hips.  This, I do not have.

On the subject of the uncomfortable way of sitting, I do often cross my legs at the knee.  I don't know why a comfortable sitting position should ever be gendered.  You sit as you want to sit.  I've seen many cisgendered males sitting in this manner, and I've also seen them standing and leaning in awkward positions that would be labeled "effeminate".  We as people should do what we think is comfortable whether it be branded female or male.  And the double leg crossing is simply mind-bending for me.

Well, I'm not sure how accurate this woman's claims are, but here's my results.
- I have male arms.
- It appears I can't do the leg crossing thing if my life depended on it.
- My shoulders are slightly wider than my hips. (I still think my hips are too feminine though).
- I have very thick finger bones which make them look shorter than they really are. I've had to listen to this all my life. ::)
- I have masculine and feminine features in my face.
- Body hair is -10%. But, I do have Native American decent. The males in my family aren't too hairy either.

The more I read this the more I think it's a crock of sh*t. Most of these features are decided through hormones. I believe the brain can be one sex while the body's another- no matter what physical traits you have. It was still an interesting read.

Through extensive trials, I have determined I cannot double cross my legs, and can hardly fathom such a thing being possible.  However, there is no reason to believe the presence or absence of this seemingly useless ability would determine the gender of your brain.

In the pic, I think you're doing it with the wrong leg. You're supposed to do it with teh top leg. but maybe not. i tried but couldn't do it. but then i've never been very flexible.

I really didn't read through all of this but a classic double leg cross = crossing your legs at the knee, then the big toe of the top leg touches the back/inner calf of the bottom leg, making it wrap around much like in your pic but not to that extreme where you look like a pretzel.

It's not necessarily a feminine way of crossing your legs, just many men don't do it as it tends to squish some bits that aren't exactly comfortable being squished.

Quote from: Adrian on August 16, 2009, 05:13:58 PMHowever, there is no reason to believe the presence or absence of this seemingly useless ability would determine the gender of your brain.

True. :D

What I did find interesting was her theory about someone can be intersexed without both male and female sex organs. I've never heard of this before. I don't really know what I think about that, but it's an interesting theory.

Quote from: Radar on August 16, 2009, 05:55:27 PM
True. :D

What I did find interesting was her theory about someone can be intersexed without both male and female sex organs. I've never heard of this before. I don't really know what I think about that, but it's an interesting theory.

Intersex doesn't necessarily refer to ambiguous genitalia.
It can present itself as ovaries that consist of testicular tissue (or vice versa), or even chromosomal abnormalities...

I tried with everything I had to get my legs to do that and they would NOT cross like that! haha The most comfortable way for me to cross my legs is mid calf over knee, and the most comfortable way for me to sit is one foot under bum. I guess I don't sit like a typical female! haha
I have quite thick fingers, too, very thick bones in my fingers, all of my fingers except for my pinky fingers, I wear a size 8 ring, but size 9 won't fall off either, so I have some chunky hands! haha
My hands fall about 2 inches from my sides.
I also measured my shoulders vs my hips, 42 inches when I measured around my shoulders, 39 inches around my hips, and my hips are NOT small by any means compared to my body, waist is 32 inches, I guess I just have some huge shoulders going on! haha

So I would say that this information is a bit flawed.

Oh no! I never believed this information is in any way related to the female/male brain.. after all, I did post a research that shows (by CT scans and such) hormones change ones brain in a specific topic to that.

I also know that hormones at puberty, before bones fuse, usually influence most of those traits.

Estrogen causes the hip bones to expand (mainly the pubic bones).
Age you finish puberty pretty much related to your shoulder's size (and many others.. unless some genetics involved)

Not sure about the arms and thick/narrow fingers, I think the think fingers or narrow fingers are genetic, most of my family (both genders) seem to have them.

Arms might be genetic.. but I am yet to even see one person who can't do the arms thingy.. (male or female)

I was just curious if it's the right way to do it :D and which features I might have.

http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/full/155/suppl_1/S107 (http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/full/155/suppl_1/S107)

I also find those two (both related to ONE another research)

http://cs.anu.edu.au/~Zoe.Brain/BGI%20REF%203.pdf (http://cs.anu.edu.au/~Zoe.Brain/BGI%20REF%203.pdf)

http://cs.anu.edu.au/~Zoe.Brain/BGI%203.3.2.ppt (http://cs.anu.edu.au/~Zoe.Brain/BGI%203.3.2.ppt)

From here: http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/05/brain-gender-identity-presentation-by.html (http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/05/brain-gender-identity-presentation-by.html)
Yay google!

I think, really, many people try to explain the sexes as a whole possibly to benefit themselves (i.e. find false explanations for why they feel conflicted about their gender, or prove their gender in some way).  People are all individual.  I think it's about time we, who are supposedly so gender-fluid, accept that human development is far more complex than we bargained for.

I'm flexible enough to touch my toes without bending, and I can bend my thumb back to my inside forearm.... but I cannot for the life of me do the double leg cross thing!  :laugh:

For what it's worth, my shoulders are about 3" wider than my hip bones per side (6" total). Pre-T. Yes, I'm aware that's unusual. I have no complaints about it  (Although if I weren't FTM I'd be in a rough spot!).

I have to wonder if hormones do anything for flexability. I noticed I got quite a bit less flexable at about the same time I started to regenerate body hair (the thumb thing? Can only JUST do it now and it hurts - it used to be comfortable, and required much less force. With T I expect not to be able to do it at all).

Quote from: Adrian on August 17, 2009, 12:10:46 AM
I think it's about time we, who are supposedly so gender-fluid, accept that human development is far more complex than we bargained for.

Indeed. A varied species is a long lived, healthy, successful species. It's a given that a species as pervasive and adaptable as humans are is going to have a metric asston of variation when you compare individual to individual.

Variation happens, and I agree it gets used as an explanation and rationalization for being trans way too often. At times it almost feels like the psuedoscience gets taken with the same blind faith as religion (understandably - for the same reasons as it offers hope of understanding the TS condition).

I sit that way all of the time.  drove my ex nuts, she could not do it ether.  >:-)

And when I was working Delivery at work, the guys would ask me "How in the H**l can you do that?"


Janet

Ummm... no I can't double cross my legs.
Crossing my legs? Sure no problem.
Double crossing?... ouch!!!

Brenda

I had to humor myself haha.

I got as far as Myself and Janet did.

I didn't read the article or anything but what does that have to do with anything lol

Most male hips do not allow for this.
In fact most male hips do not allow for an easy crossing of the legs above the knee. Between the narrow hips and extra bits, its not so easy for them. Worse it is actually bad for their hip joints or so I am told.


I find some issues with the article.
If one part of us, the brain, is the opposite gender then obviously certain other individual parts can too. Most people have a few features of the opposite sex by nature. How does any of that relate to telling if you have a female or male brain? It doesn't, it can't.

How can you even tell if you have a female vs male brain? You can't, not without specialized medical equipment. Even then, if you look at other people, their brains adapted to what they need. Taxi drivers in London have a much active part of the brain that handles direction. The parts of your brain that you use most, develop more, the parts you don't develop less. The same could happen in this case, if you live as a guy, you will more than likely be using those sections more commonly related to male activities.



I was lucky enough to be born with a wide pelvis, I hated it as a child, as did my mom, finding pants was an exercise in futility. My hip to shoulder width ratio is almost the same as many genetic woman. I have always been able to do cross my legs comfortably above the knee and even the double cross. I never really thought it was even that odd.

uhh I don't get it. my boyfriend who has quite narrow hips can cross legs and double cross legs comfy.. O_o are you sure it's in any way related?

I can double cross my legs, but only with my left leg wrapping around my right.  I'm only able to do this because of a difference in size and length of my limbs and the functional range of my left ankle.  I have a straight 28" waist, without prominent or protruding hips and am still able to double cross my legs without pain (but it's not exactly a comfortable position to lounge around in.)

Most guys i know can cross their legs above the knee, but there are a few I know who can't.  It never fails to amaze me.  I myself can double cross my legs and have the "woman" arms, which I figure is to accomodate my hips, not because I was made to carry a baby in my arms rather than, I dunno, throw a football or whatever it was she mentioned for the male-brained.  I haven't bothered measuring hips and shoulders, but I think they're about the same, although I'm not quite sure how to measure (across?  around?  under the arms?  over?)

Ok I don't know what happened, but I was watching TV on Hulu and all of a sudden I realized I had double crossed my legs!  I mean after I saw this post I tried it but I didn't think it was something I would end up doing other than for curiosity's sake.  I wonder if I'd already been doing it and never noticed?

Can't do the leg-cross thing to save my life. Not that i can ever see wanting to...that looks really uncomfortable.

It sounds pretty fake, as most of the stuff mentioned seems like it would be genetically determined or hormonally determined, but...

1) I have "female" arms, although that may be because I am double jointed... Not sure. (What exactly do they mean?)
2) Leg crossing... Nope, sorry. I'm flexible, but that's just painful and makes me fall off my chair.
3) My shoulders are a little wider than my hips, which are fairly small for my build.
4) My mother has long, slender fingers, yet my father, brother, uncles, and male cousins all have short, albeit stubby fingers like mine.
5) My face, I believe is a little bit of masculine and feminine. I have prominent eyebrows, and feminine eyes and eyelashes. My chin is defined, I think, but I have high cheekbones which come from my European background, and I have my father's nose. My face is a melting pot of male and female attributes.
6) Body hair... Hmm. I think I'm more leaning toward what is considered a generally masculine body hair pattern.

Even though I can't necessarily agree with the author of the article, I definitely think it's something to think about.

I think my hands qualify as girl-shaped but guy-sized.  My mom has (relatively) large hands, but she's also tall (5'9"-5'10" or something).  So I think even if i had been born XX my physical features probably wouldn't have been much smaller/shorter/less pronounced.  The face bones are the real issue... testosterone has been screwing that up :(.

Oh, and the trick to the leg thing is that you have to bend your bottom knee inward and the same heel/ankle outward.

I would like to try to clarify something (not fully sure that im correct but I think I am)

With the arm thing, since hormones during puberty (and other influences) affect how your skeleton develops. The more pronounced angle in the elbow, its something that its found more in females.

Its part of the things that might be there if your body developed female since puberty. But then again, each body develops on its own way. So saying that a trait its general its a sad mistake.

And thats the problem I have with the person who wrote that, she generalize her opinions. And that shouldnt be done. Period.


I found the arm thing long time ago, and was intrigued about it. I commented it with other persons and some had it and others didnt.

QuoteHere's how to test it in yourself: Stand in front of a full-length mirror.  Let your arms fall normally to your sides, with your palms open and facing toward the front. If you have male arms, you'll see that they go pretty much straight down.  If you have female arms, you'll see that at the elbow the lower arm angles out from the body as much as twenty-five degrees.  This puts the inside edges of your hands about six inches away from your legs, while male arms would be almost flush against the legs.

Ok, there seems to be a mistake there. If a person with male arms turn them from a relaxed state to palms up front. Those arm will show some degree of angle. I have seen this.


The correct way to measure if you have the arm thing or not. Its to jsut let your arms drop relaxed to your sides. If you have it they will simply show an angle in that position that once you turn your palms up front it looks a lot more notorious.

Mostly, your hands wont touch your hips or barely in a gentle way (depends how hipsy are you) And your elbows will stick to your waist without fully touching it.

I found a picture about that. Let me show you. Its a diagram but im not sure its ok to post it?



Anyway, thats that. But does this mean you are more or less for having those traits either masculine of femenine?

Not really, its just the fact of your body and thats all.

If you are female and your body has female/feminine traits, be happy. If you are male and your body has male/masculine traits, be happy. The problem could be when you have opposite traits to your gender... wait isnt that why we are here?

Man the leg crossing thing, if I saw a gal sitting that way, I'd say she either has to pee REALLY bad or is enjoying herself, get the legs just right and you can wiggle that tendon in the inner leg against stuff and get a good feeling. It looks like a way a kid or goofy high school student would sit though.

14, 15 and 16 confuse me.
I am not sure what is 13 at all both of them

I think those are where the gap between the legs shows up when wearing shorts, and some differences in how the knee looks - generally more boxy and boney in males.

Those diagrams bug me though, even the gal has longer arms than I do, my thumb is about at the level of my pubis, hers is below and his is way below. They are generalizations based on a sort of ideal northern european type I think.

I thought the fact that I keep my arms smooth and hairless gave me feminine arms, but apparently it's because they angle away from my torso.

I thought the bend of my legs was weird, but it matches that diagram there.

I can do the double cross, but it's NOT comfortable at all. At the knee, I usually do, but depending on the clothes I'm wearing it's just easier to do ankle over knee. Not very ladylike though.

I can assure you, Cindy, that if a man sat double crossed at a pub in the US he'd be called a queer 7 ways from sunday before the night was over.

Can't do it.
This from a guy who was the most flexible person in his TKD class...lol
I guess I just fail at being a girl...yay!

Quote from: Aaron22 on September 03, 2009, 11:48:54 AM
Can't do it.
This from a guy who was the most flexible person in his TKD class...lol
I guess I just fail at being a girl...yay!

This is neither here nor there but your signature is wonderful.

Haha thank you.
What's kinda weird is that I typed it all out from memory....*is a nerd*