Susan's Place Transgender Resources

What does the TG community think of GID being compared to body integrity identity disorder (BIID)? I have heard the comparison a lot, but only from the BIID-community side.

People with BIID have the incurable belief that part of their body is not part of them (most often the left leg apparently), it can also be called "alien limb syndrome". They persistently try to have the offending part removed. There's a fair bit of controversy about whether surgeons are ethically allowed to help them, for obvious reasons. I think though if the distress is genuinely incurable and stops them from being happy and productive, maybe medically assisted amputation is reasonable. In terms of "years of healthy life lost" i think depression tends to have more of an impact on people than amputation.

Still... there is something very weird going on with these patients either psychologically or neurologically. do you think the comparison to GID is valid, the idea of the body somehow being wrong for the mind or visa versa, and needing to be re-aligned to achieve inner peace?

I guess they are trying to gain some sort of acceptance for their course of action by comparing themselves to a group that already has at least a little bit of acceptance among the medical community, and gets access to surgery to correct another mind-body mismatch.

One example of the comparison, and a relatively convincing story of BIID.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ockhamsrazor/stories/2009/2608482.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ockhamsrazor/stories/2009/2608482.htm)
press "show transcript" or download the audio.

It's tempting to draw comparisons because there's a desire to have the physical body match a mental image.  However I think that it's important to assess conditions like these on their own merits, especially as the origins and causes could be very different.

One could argue that an anorexic is starving in a struggle to get their physical body to match their mental image of how it should be.  I imagine that few would suggest it's appropriate to let them starve.  Ah, some might retort that anorexia is classed as a psychiatric disorder but so what?  There are neuro-physiological causes for anorexia nervosa too.

BIID is certainly a genuine disorder and deserves proper study and research.  I advise against trying to draw any meaningful comparisons with GID - or any other disorder that presents a mental/physical incongruity.

I have to agree with finewine.

Another thing to think about is, for some BIID people, their ultimate goal would be complete quad-amputation, which does in the end make them unable in most cases to care for themselves, or at least be extremely dependent on others and nearly unemployable without heavy-duty prosthetics, which are only now just becoming available.  This may not invalidate their feelings or desires, but the consequences are beyond them alone.

For the most part, those of us dealing with GID, those who complete transformation, or are along in the process are still very much capable of being productive and vital members of the world. Most of the hurdles in our way are systemic and social stigmas.

I know this is a callous analysis but I do think it reflects the fundamental differences in the two groups.
:icon_female:

Ok.. teacher part over.. now.. COOKIES!!

I think there are parallels. For example, the desire of many MtFs to remove their offending member. Likely this is all brain structure stuff. Perhaps there is an overlap in that both 'conditions' involve similar parts of the brain regarding the way the body is mapped, but that is not saying the mechanisms for why these arise are the same. 

I completely agree.

In my own case, it was the internal map I had of what my body was supposed to be that began causing the greatest problems from the earliest ages.  But that is only my personal experience.

I saw a documentary about this a few years ago, and, hearing the people who have BIID talk about it, I was struck by the similarities to transsexualism.

Just to correct something in a previous post, none of these people wanted to remove their arms, only their legs.

The strongest similarity was that legless was the way they were supposed to be, and that not being that way was an affliction that tormented them day and night.

The second strongest similarity was their frustration with a medical community that didn't understand them, didn't care about them, and set themselves up as the arbiter of something that should only concern the patient.

Watching the documentary, I was struck by the notion, as illogical as it might be - that both conditions could be explained by reincarnation, and the desire to be as we were in a previous life.

Gina, just to clarify; BIID can include the want to remove various parts, not just arms or legs..  I have heard of ears, eyes, tongue, eyelids, etc..

http://www.biid.org/basics.php?page=05&lan=en (http://www.biid.org/basics.php?page=05&lan=en)

This unrelated but have you seen that stuff online where people castrate themselves because it turns them on or they fill their testicals full of saline or split their penis in half. Weird.

The comments to the pics are so weird "that is so hot" " I always wanted to do that" etc..
It's funny though listening to them talk after they actually castrate themselves when the euphoria wears off they are like "damn, now I have nothing to play with  :'( ". El loco.

Yes, and not just on line.. The Penis thing is more related to body modifications like extreme piercings, cuttings and hook hanging.

Self castration is probably as old as time..  but saline in the testicles or scrotal sack is a new one on me, unless it is a medical fetish..

Si, es muy loco..

Oh dear this has sent me thinking,

When is a disorder a disorder, when is it a habit, when is it a fetish, when is it a neurosis, when is it pathological?

Can't answer to be honest. I see people with tatooed bodies and I think Yuk, why? I cannot place myself into the mind set of wanting a limb/s removed. I cannot put myself into many fetish situations. But I would argue that in all logic I'm female in a male body (yea same old story) and would be happy to have body parts removed, and even added if possible to make me "normal".

If body harming is a psychological disease then, many of the opinions of MtF and FtM on this site are are wrong.

I think it may come down to that great equaliser, statistics.. We are all normal, but some are more normal than others.

Strange world we live in


Cindy

While parallels can be drawn with the most dysphoric TS, they cannot in the majority of cases of GID.  I think the outward manifestation of GID is far more similar to BDD (Body Dysmorphic Disorder).  Check if out if you haven't already.  I'm interested to hear what you think.

Quote from: metal angel on August 25, 2009, 06:05:16 AM
What does the TG community think of GID being compared to body integrity identity disorder (BIID)? I have heard the comparison a lot, but only from the BIID-community side.

People with BIID have the incurable belief that part of their body is not part of them (most often the left leg apparently), it can also be called "alien limb syndrome". They persistently try to have the offending part removed. There's a fair bit of controversy about whether surgeons are ethically allowed to help them, for obvious reasons. I think though if the distress is genuinely incurable and stops them from being happy and productive, maybe medically assisted amputation is reasonable. In terms of "years of healthy life lost" i think depression tends to have more of an impact on people than amputation.

Still... there is something very weird going on with these patients either psychologically or neurologically. do you think the comparison to GID is valid, the idea of the body somehow being wrong for the mind or visa versa, and needing to be re-aligned to achieve inner peace?

I guess they are trying to gain some sort of acceptance for their course of action by comparing themselves to a group that already has at least a little bit of acceptance among the medical community, and gets access to surgery to correct another mind-body mismatch.

One example of the comparison, and a relatively convincing story of BIID.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ockhamsrazor/stories/2009/2608482.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ockhamsrazor/stories/2009/2608482.htm)
press "show transcript" or download the audio.

Quote from: metal angel on August 25, 2009, 06:05:16 AM
What does the TG community think of GID being compared to body integrity identity disorder (BIID)? I have heard the comparison a lot, but only from the BIID-community side.

People with BIID have the incurable belief that part of their body is not part of them (most often the left leg apparently), it can also be called "alien limb syndrome". They persistently try to have the offending part removed. There's a fair bit of controversy about whether surgeons are ethically allowed to help them, for obvious reasons. I think though if the distress is genuinely incurable and stops them from being happy and productive, maybe medically assisted amputation is reasonable. In terms of "years of healthy life lost" i think depression tends to have more of an impact on people than amputation.

Still... there is something very weird going on with these patients either psychologically or neurologically. do you think the comparison to GID is valid, the idea of the body somehow being wrong for the mind or visa versa, and needing to be re-aligned to achieve inner peace?

I guess they are trying to gain some sort of acceptance for their course of action by comparing themselves to a group that already has at least a little bit of acceptance among the medical community, and gets access to surgery to correct another mind-body mismatch.

One example of the comparison, and a relatively convincing story of BIID.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ockhamsrazor/stories/2009/2608482.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ockhamsrazor/stories/2009/2608482.htm)
press "show transcript" or download the audio.

Well... There are no lines between disorders between each other. All complexes interact with each other. Thats why when one thing gets sick (Lets say from poor drinking water... Which we should be effing OVER by now), everything else gets the ripple too or is just affected.

And people in general have overlapping perceptions in their minds about them and the world around them, so nothings ever going to be a clean area of the brain called, "BODY INTEGRITY" and another called, "GIDLAND"
Well if you wanna be completely honest...

My boy junk NEVER felt like mine. It didn't just not belong but I also felt like it was somebody elses and I was like... Its stewart or something crazy like that. I'd sit in the bathtub wondering where it SHOULD have been...

Then I saw Fullmetal Alchemist... And I think now that like...
But I was like. HOLY CRAP I'M WRATH!

... A homunculus .___________.

Kara, I had the same feelings with mine.

Interesting thing with FMA.. I have had a similar feeling when I saw a documentary on actual human Chimera*. These are people who are composed of cells from two separate embryos, who blend in very early development... I am the last one to be trying to find the "absolute medical causation" around what and who we are.. just a mind poser..  I have wondered how many of us could be such people.. A blending of parts from two pseudo-twins, fully merged.. with genitalia, organs, and brains a blend of paternal twins in varying proportions, one starting male and one starting female. I have no medical background but the idea really struck a chord.

We could start another thread if this seems too off topic.  :)

*   http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=8905 (http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=8905)

The chimera idea is interesting, but to me it seems implausable that you could get all the brain from one embryo and all the body from another. It's just too unlikely for it to be that exact. You would expect a lot more TS people to show intersex characteristics, but i gather that most TS people are pretty much bodily normal for their biological gender? Maybe with some masculine or femine features that they appreciate more than their cis-gederred counterparts, but not really intersex.

Also, it doesn't quite make biological sense. In an embryo cells don't just follow a pre-set plan of i'll divide here, then i'll diferentate here into this. They talk to each other and communicate a lot. A lot of the differences between male and female brains would have more to do with the developing gonads than the genomes in the cells of the brain itself.

So, a very elegant theory, but unfortunately it seems implausable.

But i only did developmental biology as an undergraduate student at uni. Cindy, you said you were in cancer research right? Most cancer biologists know a fair bit of developmental biology?what do you think of the Chimera theory?

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Post Merge: August 28, 2009, 09:19:07 AM

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Quote from: CindyJames on August 26, 2009, 05:01:38 AM
When is a disorder a disorder, when is it a habit, when is it a fetish, when is it a neurosis, when is it pathological?

Yeah i don't think it is at all constructive to have a disorder-correct model in socioty or medicine. I think in all except for the most imminently physically life threatening cases a model of variation-optimise would be better. Not "is this person diseased?" but "is this person as happy and productive as they can be?" Particularly in psychology, but also in medicine in cases such as intersex conditions, and some which have a culture attached like deafness. Even the life threatening cases could just be seen as the very un-optimal end of variation.

Thank you Metal Angel, and you are right, I am a complete lay-person in this field and bow to those of greater understanding. I would love to hear more from those with Biology or Medical backgrounds.

I agree that an entire organ would be unlikely to be completely from one or the other, more a law of percentages.. however, within the Chimera is the conundrum of Harlequin children. These individuals have skin which is in patches, from either embryo, leading to a patchwork quilt effect, some in nearly perfect checkerboard squares, often of different skin tones which is where the syndrome gets it's name.

I agree that most of us are biologically normal for our birth gender. It is only a mind chewing theory of mine, probably best left to fiction than science.

My problem with BIID is getting my mind around their disconnect without having my own experience and opinions regarding GID coloring my perceptions.  Kind of like a lizard looking at a snake. (No pun intended.)

Quote from: Shanawolf on August 28, 2009, 01:36:11 PM
[...] within the Chimera is the conundrum of Harlequin children. These individuals have skin which is in patches, from either embryo, leading to a patchwork quilt effect, some in nearly perfect checkerboard squares, often of different skin tones which is where the syndrome gets it's name.[...]

I think you're referring to a "tetragametic chimera" in the previous context of gender (which isn't about the brain from one and the body from another - this all occurs waaaay before any such structure develops). This could lead to a hermaphroditic fetus.

As for the "harlequin" icthyosis, this is due to a specific mutation in a gene preventing the production of a protein vital for the proper development of the skin - I don't think this has anything to do with the "merging" of embryos per se.

Thank you finewine.
I have seen the two linked before, but probably in the same way GLB and Trans often get linked.
I have to admit I am out of my depths on this idea and have not done any extensive research.

actually there was a thread here a while ago about an athlete who was mainly XX cells with a few XY, she failed a gender test due to the few Ys but later they geve her her meddle back because they decided most of her cells were XX.

you could get some kind of part sparation if there was a parasitic twin... but again that would lead to TS being a lot more anatomically unusual than they are.

and yeah with the harliquins the first medical text book i grabbed of my bookshelf agrees with finewine... but some gogling tells me that male tortise shell cats can be chimeric... so there might be a human condition like you describe by another name?

BIID is this the same thing as Amputee Identity Disorder I've read about?

I think there is a huge difference here though, it's gendered behavior vs. wanting our limbs amputated. GID is most likely caused by hormones or lack of one kind of them in the womb. BIID/AID sounds more like a brain-body map thing. The only similarity I see is wanting certain parts that are proof of our bio sex removed/added on.

For myself Northy, it partly was a brain-body map sort of thing.  As I have stated in other posts, after surgery everything was finally in it's right place.

I guess there's just a shared symptom? superficially there's the want to have body parts removed, but below that there seems to be a perception of the body as alein and non-self in some patrticualarly destressed TS before transition which resembled that in BIID? I'm from a much shallower end of the TG pool, so i can't quite relate to that, it seems to be true for some though? correct me i'f i'm wrong?

Having surgery to correct the configuration of the physical body to match the mental image applies to both conditions but that does not mean the conditions are related.

For example, you can use aspirin as a pain killer or a blood thinner.   The fact that you might use the same treatment (aspirin) doesn't logically imply that the underlying condition being treated are related.

Similarly, even if there is a parallel between surgically changing the configuration of the body between BIID and GID, that doesn't causally relate the two conditions.

The whole body map thing has nothing to do with gender identity.  It's the physical representation of the body configuration within the somatosensory cortex where this "map" resides. Strictly speaking this is theory but Ramachandran used this theory to demonstrate that, post-amputation, this map gets redrawn which explains (a) why touching the face of one patient post-amputation led to the sensation of being touched on the now-phantom limb and (b) a method for the possible treatment of conditions around phantom limbs).  So in the case of amputees with phantom limbs and quite possibly for BIID, there is  a mismatch between the physical configuration of the body and the somatosensory homunculus.

In the case of gender dysphoria, the situation is somewhat different.  The somatosensory homunculus is not mis-mapped to the physical body, it matches exactly - the problem is that both of these conflict with gender identity because the anatomical gender doesn't conform with the mental gender.

Really, one has to look far beyond the superficial similarities to see that GID and BIID are fundamentally different things.

yeah, i've only heard this from the BIID side before, i was wonderring what the other side was.

I'm noticing a kind of hirachy of minorities seems to exist ... where they are trying to compare themselves to the ones above them and dissociate themselves from the ones below them?

Homosexuals sometimes compare themselves to enhnic minorities in arguments about discrimination. I imagine there are at least a few cross dressers who try to disociate themselves from either the homosexuals or the transsexuals. (e.g. Ed Wood in geln or glenda was keen to isolate dcross dressers from homosexuals.) TS often compare themselves to homosexuals as an argument that they are just part of the normal variation. But TS try to disociate themselves form BIID because it's not as well recognised. TS also try to disociate themselves from the mentally eccentric world with a vitrioloic passion that rather offends me. (I'm trying to work out whether the mentally ill are above or below TS on the ladder, i think they're battling for the same rung.) BIID sufferrers compare themselves to TS to justify need for surgery, since TS can access surgery but BIID have trouble. I wonder who the poor sods under BIID on the specturm are?

Interesting social phenomenon really. I'm not saying who's right, not saying what the real valid connection in that chain are here, just an intersting heirachy of who likes to be comparred to whom.

I can understand how folks might seek to draw comparisons to help others - usually in an attempt to help others who are outside of their minority group to comprehend their issues by trying to find a mutually understood frame of reference. To use your example; homosexual people seeking to use racial discrimination as a frame of reference for why discrimination is wrong - on the basis that racial discrimination is widely understood to be wholly irrational, hence if one can understand that, then hopefully one can understand why discrimination against homosexuals is similarly irrational.

However, as far as GID, BIID and hierarchies etc. are concerned, I personally don't think these are helpful or valid.  Each condition needs to be assessed and managed on its own merits.

Maybe there are some transgendered folks who deny any correlation with BIID for more parochial reasons around the recognition (or lack thereof) for BIID...I don't know, people vary.  It's unnecessary because, as per my previous reply, the two conditions aren't related anyway.  I think there is a valid discussion to be had over attitudes and appropriate treatment for BIID sufferers and one could argue there's a parallel to be explored there - medical recognition and attitudes to GID versus BIID - but comparing the conditions themselves doesn't seem to have much merit.

But i only did developmental biology as an undergraduate student at uni. Cindy, you said you were in cancer research right? Most cancer biologists know a fair bit of developmental biology?what do you think of the Chimera theory?


Not a lot, as far as I am aware, and I certainly do not read a lot in the area, it is extremely rare. Much rarer than TG. Absorbtion of the twin, as finewine noted, tends to be at the very early stages of development, way before any hormonal influences on brain development have taken place. Usually at later stages there is a undeveloped still born twin.  The occurence of teratomers (I think I have spelt that correct) is more common but thankfully still rare.

Just for fun the last time to my knowledge that Chimera theory was bounced around in the press was by a USA cyclist who failed a blood doping test in the Athens Olymics. He claimed that the incompatible blood (that he was accused of having transfused) was due to a Chimera. I was working in that area at the time and I and others were ROTFL, but it had to go to the committee.

So, in my opinion, chimera theory, is far too rare to account for the relatively high incidence of TG. Personally, I think it's the storks fault, or the wrong shaped cabbage leaf.

:laugh:
Cindy

Quote from: finewine on August 29, 2009, 03:11:56 AM
I can understand how folks might seek to draw comparisons to help others - usually in an attempt to help others who are outside of their minority group to comprehend their issues by trying to find a mutually understood frame of reference. To use your example; homosexual people seeking to use racial discrimination as a frame of reference for why discrimination is wrong - on the basis that racial discrimination is widely understood to be wholly irrational, hence if one can understand that, then hopefully one can understand why discrimination against homosexuals is similarly irrational.

However, as far as GID, BIID and hierarchies etc. are concerned, I personally don't think these are helpful or valid.  Each condition needs to be assessed and managed on its own merits.

Maybe there are some transgendered folks who deny any correlation with BIID for more parochial reasons around the recognition (or lack thereof) for BIID...I don't know, people vary.  It's unnecessary because, as per my previous reply, the two conditions aren't related anyway.  I think there is a valid discussion to be had over attitudes and appropriate treatment for BIID sufferers and one could argue there's a parallel to be explored there - medical recognition and attitudes to GID versus BIID - but comparing the conditions themselves doesn't seem to have much merit.

Agreed.

Metal,
Part of the thing with BIID is that it is often used against us. It is often referenced as to the 'absurdity' of people wanting to cut off healthy body parts.
Also, they're trying to use our medical model.

thanks for the views, it's interesting to see it from the other side.

I have a lot of sympathy for BIID in some cases, must be a very weird and destressing condition to have.

Neither condition is understood very well. Though there's a rational reason for being more willing to offer surgery to GID, which i wholeheartedly agree with, in that they do not require assisantce to care for themselves.

But i wonder if the societal objections are less rational. Even if not all functions are able to be successfully replaicted TS have the goal of becoming something deemed healthy, healthy man or healthy woman. But BIID sufferrers want to become an amputee, a condition most people view as diseased.

Do TS who are content to remain non-op have a hard time for wanting to stay in the middle without striving toward perfect man or perfect woman?

Quote from: metal angel on August 29, 2009, 04:26:00 AM
thanks for the views, it's interesting to see it from the other side.

I have a lot of sympathy for BIID in some cases, must be a very weird and destressing condition to have.

Neither condition is understood very well. Though there's a rational reason for being more willing to offer surgery to GID, which i wholeheartedly agree with, in that they do not require assisantce to care for themselves.

But i wonder if the societal objections are less rational. Even if not all functions are able to be successfully replaicted TS have the goal of becoming something deemed healthy, healthy man or healthy woman. But BIID sufferrers want to become an amputee, a condition most people view as diseased.

Do TS who are content to remain non-op have a hard time for wanting to stay in the middle without striving toward perfect man or perfect woman?

Good question for the Non-Op forums (also) - I'd like to see more from their perspective too.

I personally think that there are some core similarities between the two. With no disrespect to the disabled community, I think gender is much more socially complex than someone's level of physical or mental ability. However at a point nuerologically speaking it certainly seems possible to me.

I don't see why it couldn't happen. Though I am suspect of the frequency with which it is reported. At an equal level I am suspect of those who claim they are Transsexual. TS is a rare state of being which I think many often like to believe they have because it is easier to understand than realizing they are perhaps Transgender or a ->-bleeped-<- (Ooh look out for that scary word there!)

I'm not sure why a group of socially marginalized people such as us would be so quick to jump on something like this. I agree it is odd, and certainly raises cause for concern. We worry about the mental well being of those claiming to have it and how it will affect those around, and even society as a whole. Really though I fail to see how this violates Mill's harm principle, and so I can't say that I find anything explicitly wrong it providing certain simple conditions are met.

Maybe I'm the only Transhumanist here though.

Quote from: chrysalis on August 31, 2009, 12:22:15 AM

TS is a rare state of being which I think many often like to believe they have because it is easier to understand than realizing they are perhaps Transgender or a ->-bleeped-<- (Ooh look out for that scary word there!)

Personally,->-bleeped-<-, no way; transgender, of course. Doesn't mean I'm not Transsexual too.

what's so bad about the word "->-bleeped-<-" is it just that that's how a lot of the laws against it were worded back in the dark ages?

what's so bad about the word "->-bleeped-<-"

Well first of all I've always hated the Latin based words when a good old Anglo-Saxon one will do - but in this case I assume that people object to TV as opposed to CD because it implies a psychiatric pathology and not a simple description of behavior.  Its classification under certain kinds of deviance - a TV is a man, dressed as a women for the express reasons of sexual satisfaction, either by self, or by attempting to lure another man - for clinical reasons tends to point to a mental illness, as opposed to a more open sense of fashion.

Point being, I get no 'thrill' from cross dressing. Not because ->-bleeped-<- has a stigma.