I have always been a little interested in transpeople who, once they get the surgery, have an issue with the standard "gay" population. Of course, this would have to be, for example, an MtF who is attracted to males and considers herself a straight woman.
Now, I know that we have a general LGBT umbrella term, but sometimes that doesn't work because there are bi-phobic homosexuals (and straights), transphobic bi's and gay's, and homophobic transfolk. It is not always one LGBT community where everyone is friends and having a gay ol' time (no pun intended).
For instance, I was recently talking to a friend who is a professional drag queen, who is a gay male, and he was telling me that he had a friend who was MtF and once she had the surgery, she felt that she was superior to homosexuals, and their issues didn't apply to her. She was married to a man.
Apparently, when gay marriage was legalized in Canada a few years ago, she made more than a few very negative comments on the fact that gays could now get married.
This actually isn't the first time I have heard of this happening. What are all of your thoughts an it? Can this be fixed? Why the hostility?? I sort of see where they are coming from, but I kind of don't lol
Chrissi
Some people are stupid. Currently, Smarts Reassignment Surgery has a 0% success rate.
I have feelings about this topic. Second only to my doctor, I have personally gotten the most grief from gay men. This probably has something to do with the company I keep, but they seem to look at transexuals...differently. When I identified as trans my partner and our friends all thought it was neat. When I started dressing they accepted me into their group and made me feel as comfortable as I could in public, because I'm a pretty damn homely woman and needed all the help and confidence I could get. When I started growing breasts they all abandoned me. I wasn't one of them anymore, and it hurt, a lot. None of my gay friends stuck by me, one by one they have lost contact over the last 6 months. The man I had shared a home and bed with for years and years beat the living daylights out of me, after never having laid a hand on me in anger or even so much as called me a name for the duration of our relationship.
So currently it just so happens that all I have are straight people and one or two transexual women in my very small circle of friends. Frankly, I have made no effort nor have any desire to rejoin the community. Gay men don't like women, they like men. A healthy gay couple does not have one member wishing he was female, they are quite happy being boys. We are different from them on a fundamental level, and people react to those differences in their own ways. I can't say what that woman's motivation was, maybe she thought opposing gay marriage would make her more stealth, I dunno or care, everyone is entitled to their opinion, even ignorant ones. We aren't the same creatures, it's society that lumps us together. Our political fates are joined, but really, in my opinion, that's where the similarities end.
Quote from: Becca on August 28, 2009, 02:38:27 AMWe aren't the same creatures, it's society that lumps us together. Our political fates are joined, but really, in my opinion, that's where the similarities end.
Your experiences mirror (in a fun house mirror kind of way)
the experiences that I have had, with "The Family".
Sometimes phobias aren't always paranoid delusions.
Quote from: Becca on August 28, 2009, 02:38:27 AM
I have feelings about this topic. Second only to my doctor, I have personally gotten the most grief from gay men. This probably has something to do with the company I keep, but they seem to look at transexuals...differently. When I identified as trans my partner and our friends all thought it was neat. When I started dressing they accepted me into their group and made me feel as comfortable as I could in public, because I'm a pretty damn homely woman and needed all the help and confidence I could get. When I started growing breasts they all abandoned me. I wasn't one of them anymore, and it hurt, a lot. None of my gay friends stuck by me, one by one they have lost contact over the last 6 months. The man I had shared a home and bed with for years and years beat the living daylights out of me, after never having laid a hand on me in anger or even so much as called me a name for the duration of our relationship.
So currently it just so happens that all I have are straight people and one or two transexual women in my very small circle of friends. Frankly, I have made no effort nor have any desire to rejoin the community. Gay men don't like women, they like men. A healthy gay couple does not have one member wishing he was female, they are quite happy being boys. We are different from them on a fundamental level, and people react to those differences in their own ways. I can't say what that woman's motivation was, maybe she thought opposing gay marriage would make her more stealth, I dunno or care, everyone is entitled to their opinion, even ignorant ones. We aren't the same creatures, it's society that lumps us together. Our political fates are joined, but really, in my opinion, that's where the similarities end.
Totally and completely agree. When I'm in a Gay bar (cos they are safe) I'm accepted as a "Gay in a dress" when I explain I'm a woman and wish to live as a woman physicaly and mentally; I'm outcast.
I'll apologise for this 'cos I do not wish to cause offence. Most Drag Queens and babes, are Gay Men who are making a (semi-)comedic charicature of females. They are not (usually) TG; I am NOT a drag queen. I really do not want to run around looking like Prisicella QofD. I'm a woman god damn it.
For a DQ to say he will marry a TG is to me odd. He is either marrying a guy who has had surgical intervention, or he is not gay. Then again I'm a liberal, people can and should love who they want.
I have nothing against LBGT but I do see a line in the sand sometimes. I think this has also been one of the problems in the clashes between G and L.
My opinions may be affected by a few Merlot
Cindy
The only thing you need to apologize for is not knowing
that Priscilla was the name of the bus. :icon_chuckel:
Quote from: heatherrose on August 28, 2009, 05:20:24 AM
The only thing you need to apologize for is not knowing
that Priscilla was the name of the bus. :icon_chuckel:
So that's why my bum looked big? :laugh:
:eusa_silenced: :icon_chuckel: :icon_blink:
You saying I have a bum the size of a bus?
I'm joking and tired, the jokes don't always work!!
Some of it has to be overcompensation.
for me it is inside the LGTB community where i find myself comfortable and safe. but it is true that those that are the most friendly or understanding toward me tend to be the L.
There is a fundamental difference in the LGBT comminities in that LGB is sexual orientation and the type we are sexually attracted to and the T is gender identity. Quite different altogether and that's why we are not understood and accepted by some LGB people, particularly if we are heterosexual in sexual orientation.
To be honest I have been to some LGBT events usually the T is tagged on the end and I felt so out of place because its not about my sexual orientation. Also being connected in this way may also confuse the general public about the issue of transsexualism.
Stardust
Quote from: Becca on August 28, 2009, 02:38:27 AMWe are different from them on a fundamental level, and people react to those differences in their own ways. I can't say what that woman's motivation was, maybe she thought opposing gay marriage would make her more stealth, I dunno or care, everyone is entitled to their opinion, even ignorant ones. We aren't the same creatures, it's society that lumps us together. Our political fates are joined, but really, in my opinion, that's where the similarities end.
I share your opinion.
Barbie~~
Quote from: stardust on August 28, 2009, 01:50:45 PM
There is a fundamental difference in the LGBT comminities in that LGB is sexual orientation and the type we are sexually attracted to and the T is gender identity. Quite different altogether and that's why we are not understood and accepted by some LGB people, particularly if we are heterosexual in sexual orientation.
To be honest I have been to some LGBT events usually the T is tagged on the end and I felt so out of place because its not about my sexual orientation. Also being connected in this way may also confuse the general public about the issue of transsexualism.
Stardust
This has been my experience too. The worst have been "Pride" events.. I never could feel comfortable and stopped going after only a few years.
One difference between sexuality and gender identity is that with the latter you can't hide. I have had to educate some gay and lesbian folks about transgender and what it is. The gender binary system contributes to this also.
I find that gays and lesbians overcompensate on the masculinity and femininity. At times it can come off as being phony even though it isn't meant to be that way. There's the attitude in the trans community where those who have had the surgery feel they are superior to those who don't. I've seen this plenty of times. IMHO, their insecurities come through with such an attitude.
Gennee
There's no question that I get more grief from lesbians than any other group, and am not treated well by gay men either. Lesbians seem about 50/50 for acceptance, but those that don't are really intolerant. Gay men are about 90% unaccepting, but keep quiet about it, to my face. Crap rolls downhill, and alot of gay people want to take out their frustrations on those they deem to be below them in the social hierarchy.
I support, and am an activist for gay rights - but I don't like gay people in general.
Quote from: gennee on August 28, 2009, 03:18:47 PM
There's the attitude in the trans community where those who have had the surgery feel they are superior to those who don't.
I've noticed this too, but I don't think it's necessarily a 'better than you' attitude. Rather, they don't just hand the surgery out to anyone who asks for it, for most it seems to be an accomplishment they worked hard and long for. I could see not wanting to get emotionally involved with people who aren't showing the survival skills they did; let's face it we have a disease of sorts, once it's cured I can hardly blame the survivors for not hanging around the ward constantly catching glimpses of their past selves in various stages. I'm not saying it's right or wrong really, just understandable.
The peculiar part is how the gay and lesbian community, well versed in being discriminated against and marginalized tends to react to us. These days in some circles it's almost cool to be gay, and they seem to have bought right into it and forgotten how much it used to suck to be them.
Barbie, my god, that dress is to die for. I'd love to be able to wear a summer outfit like that but my fat lil legs say noooo. Lovin lovin :-*
Quote from: GinaDouglas on August 28, 2009, 05:26:10 PM
I support, and am an activist for gay rights - but I don't like gay people in general.
That's cool. I mean, I'm no activist, but I do support them, however I don't necessarily like them.
I don't really get why some gay people think they are better than trans ppl, I don't think that it has to be a "who's better than the other" but each road has it's pros and cons.
Eh. I'm going to sound arrogant saying this, but I don't really have much to talk to gay folks about. I mean, even if I came out to them, it would just be like... "Hey! I'm trans!" "Oh, that's neat!" And I still wouldn't really have much to say. I mean, I'm not adversed to making friends with any I meet, but I'm not going to actively seek them out at bars or whatever. You can only get so much conversation from having had the same anatomy/sexual orientation combo at one point.
Plus, I'm not really into the culture. But then, lots of gay people I know are not into gay culture either. So... Yeah. Anyway, TS people who are outright bigoted are probably just insecure and trying to distance themselves. And if they are doing that, they are probably thinking about trans issues a lot more then I do.
I think gay people are more united than trans people. Transpeople are far more diverse in gender presentation and sexual orientation than gay people, making it difficult for transpeople to be together under a common umbrella.
Jealousy could be a factor. I remember a few transsexual people here in my country hated me so much to confess that they just can't like me because I have something inborn effortlessly, which they have invested so much money and effort to achieve. Most supporting people have been my female colleagues or GG friends, and my wife, although a few of them were indeed of bigotry.
Becca. Thanks. I could wear it outdoors freely and fearlessly because I was with a GG friend who accepts me as transgender person so well and also took photos for me there in Seattle last year. I shopped with her to pick up the one-pience dress at < $30. She is now working with me at the same department. I said to her that I could not wear it in my country, and she said it is understandable.
Barbie~~
I myself was raised in a Christian home and was constantly told that homosexuality was a sin. Don't get me wrong, they never said hating or killing was ever an option. Jesus said to love , not judge. But it was still a sin.
Now that I'm experiencing "trans" feelings and being told that it's wrong and a sin, I am starting to question those beliefs. I've never questioned it before but now I'm starting to wonder.
Even understanding more of the "other side" of the coin, so to speak, I have never been to a gay bar and probably would not feel comfortable in one still.
I really just want to be a woman and hang out with other women. Right now I have no attraction to men but if during the transition process, that happens, so be it. I still don't think I would hang out at gay bars and the like but maybe I can at least come to acceptance that those things are ok and how I'm feeling is ok.
I guess gay people aren't totally alien to hetero trans people. I think that we do have some similarities, such as having to 'come out' and facing some social taboos.
I also think that, from my experience, gay people are more open minded all together, so they will probably be more accepting of TGs. They may not like us in their bars, but they won't kick us out, either.
Quote from: Icephoenyx on September 01, 2009, 01:30:38 PM
I guess gay people aren't totally alien to hetero trans people. I think that we do have some similarities, such as having to 'come out' and facing some social taboos.
exactly, and also if i may add at one point or another trans people fall in the LGB part. i know some people might experience a change in sex orientation after hormones. But a heterosexual trans girl before transitioning is gay before transitioning, unless she started loving men only after transitioning.
Quote from: Icephoenyx on September 01, 2009, 01:30:38 PM
I also think that, from my experience, gay people are more open minded all together, so they will probably be more accepting of TGs. They may not like us in their bars, but they won't kick us out, either.
i agree, they are also a minority that face discrimination which make them more aware to the problem of discrimination and hence more open minded. overall my experience with gay people is more than positive and found them very friendly toward me.
"All of the above" are discriminated against by the majority of society (at least in the US). Can't we all just get along? :)
And Jerica, it seems you may finally be seeing the light...I mean...not seeing the light... You know what I mean! Sin isn't real.
I can agree with that Yabby, the lesbians have been by and large pretty accepting here too. I've met a couple that seem to think we are wolves in sheeps clothing, but it's not nearly as bad as the men.
I've run into the phobic gay man a few times and I'm happy to say I've turned some of them around, at least those who will take the time to get to know me.
What opened my eyes a lot was the level of ignorance there is in the gay community about trans people. Many went straight to drag queens when thinking of us. But a lot of trans people are pretty ignorant about gay people too. We have a lot to learn about each other.
Something that I've been trying to impress on phobic gays and lesbians is that trans is the common denominator in LGT. There are effeminate gay men who are discriminated against because they cross the gender lines. There are masculine lesbians who are discriminated against for the same reason. Each of us suffers discrimination because we cross the gender lines.
It seems once I've pointed this out, formerly phobic gays and lesbians realize we are all in this together.
Julie
Quote from: Dana Lane on September 01, 2009, 02:51:26 PM
Sin isn't real.
Not quite where I'm going with what I said.
Quote from: Icephoenyx on September 01, 2009, 01:30:38 PM
I also think that, from my experience, gay people are more open minded all together, so they will probably be more accepting of TGs. They may not like us in their bars, but they won't kick us out, either.
I couldn't agree more. When I first started going to gay bars I was fortunate enough to meet three of the most fantastic gay men. They were so accepting and supporting. They watched out for me and made sure I was always all right. However, the lesbians I have met have been less accepting, with the exception of my doctor and chiropractor.
Not to be simplistic, but there are more variations with trans folk than with the gay community. Asking rhetorically, as a trans woman am I a lesbian to love my wife? Am I straight to love a man? Sometimes it's like the Connie and Carla movie, thinking about it gives me mono! :laugh:
But, I wonder how much of this plays into the interpersonal relationships we have with gays and lesbians.
I suspect that many of the negative perceptions of gay people is that people are meeting them in gay bars. People in bars are often ->-bleeped-<-s, and drunk.
But, I wonder how much of this plays into the interpersonal relationships we have with gays and lesbians.
I'd imagine about 99%.
Well, what I know is that if I gay guy ever gave me a hard time about being trans, I would think he's jealous because I would probably be able to pull of being girly and get away with it without getting made fun of (provided I pass). Plus I would be able to tell people about my boyfriend/husband without the possbility of getting mocked.
But, I guess at the end of the day, we each have our own struggles about different and similar things.
Where the hell are all these good gay guys you people are talking about? I can't find any that will give me the time of day. I actually kissed a girl the other night for the first time in umpteen years, and it kinda reminded me of eating cotton candy; sweet and soft but makes you sick if you do it for too long. If that's what it's like kissing me I don't see what the big deal is for these guys, the last I checked soft and fem was in with that crowd. Meh.
This is a good subject!
I'm a straight guy who just happened to get born female bodied, and for a long time thought of myself as a lesbian. Lesbians and I, by and large, are like oil and water. My basic essence is male, I'm a guy, and I think that's the cause of the difficulties. Face it lesbians don't like straight guys who may be giving them or their GF the eye. It seems silly to myself that I'd be considered a threat, but the essential male-ness, the physicality, the aggression, are there. I'm not a big guy but I'm a guy, I think like a guy about things, do stuff like expect to pay on a date and open doors, and if I'm interested, which I probably am, I'm not gonna wait for you to make a pass at ME.
There's a lot of political correctness and sensitivity that's just a minefield for me too. My guy friends and I talk about subjects, and talk about things in general that would have a lot of lesbians wanting to shoot us all. Burping, farting, and crude jokes, we've all learned to keep those things away from the ladies.
Now, being so essentially male, I've found gay guys to be very congenial, as long as they're the masculine type gay guys. Being a biker and into leather I find myself instantly at home among any biker types gay or straight, and when I was living near there, I was a regular at a leather bar in San Jose called Renegades. I think at least a quarter of the guys thought I was a guy at first, and the welcome and friendliness I got there far exceeds any lesbian bar (yuk!) or straight bar I've gone to. Although divey straight bars are pretty damn cool too.
Now, I can get along with these more masculine gay guys because we're on the same sheet of music, they just like guys and I like girls. But we're both masculine, like leather and bikes and well, cool stuff. But things got interesting when I met my last GF and started taking her there, we'd go in the afternoon when there was almost no one there and make out on the bench in the back. The mood from the guys changed then, it was like, Oh, she really does like girls, and I got some comments. I think a lot of 'em really did have some interest in me, and my putting the smooth moves on a girl and so obviously enjoying it made me a traitor in a way lol. Now my GF and I are split up and I'm single again, and when I'm up there I'll still go to Renegades and have a beer or two, and I'm welcomed. Frankly there are not many there who actually wear leather and go everywhere on a motorcycle so that gets me cool points.
I guess I'll always consider the more macho gay bars to be places of friendliness and refuge, since I can go hang out with guys and have a good time without being hit on (I suspect even when fully passing, no one would make a pass at me, as a dominant type, I'm expected to make the passes lol) and just hang out, play pool talk etc.
Lesbian bars are high drama. By high drama I mean hair-pulling, parking lot brawls, and games like coming on to a person, when they show interest then going to the other side of the room and sending one's "ex" GF over to try to start a fight, then I guess the person and the "ex" go home and have hot make-up sex. Drama, drama, drama. One half of a couple screeching away in the car, the other half drunkenly begging for a ride. More one-upmanship than among a group of teenage boys at a hot-rod show. Otherwise very intelligent, thoughtful women go to these places and act in this junior-high way, it's amazing.
Frankly I am not going to miss all this emotional stuff. I am not going to miss being a "lesbian" one iota. And as a "lesbian" my hunting ground was among 5% of females, as a guy it's among the other 95%. Does this make me homophobic against lesbians?
I probably have a too-rosy view of the gay male scene, for most gay males it may be as full of frustration and hassle as I've found the lesbian scene to be.
I think a lot of transpeople are just glad to see much more of the world open up to them and want to be out of their slice of the gay scene and never look back. And sometimes the anger and frustration comes out in the form of homophobic comments.
The problem is, there's still no excuse for hating. There's no excuse for not supporting marriage equality, etc. I can't tell you how many lesbians I've run into who voted for McCain.
Post Merge: September 02, 2009, 01:23:14 PM
Becca - a lot of these guys like GUYS. They don't want soft and sweet, they want firm and hard and smelling a bit like leather and WD-40.
Quote from: Alex_C on September 02, 2009, 01:21:02 PM
This is a good subject!
I'm a straight guy who just happened to get born female bodied, and for a long time thought of myself as a lesbian. Lesbians and I, by and large, are like oil and water. My basic essence is male, I'm a guy, and I think that's the cause of the difficulties. Face it lesbians don't like straight guys who may be giving them or their GF the eye. It seems silly to myself that I'd be considered a threat, but the essential male-ness, the physicality, the aggression, are there. I'm not a big guy but I'm a guy, I think like a guy about things, do stuff like expect to pay on a date and open doors, and if I'm interested, which I probably am, I'm not gonna wait for you to make a pass at ME.
There's a lot of political correctness and sensitivity that's just a minefield for me too. My guy friends and I talk about subjects, and talk about things in general that would have a lot of lesbians wanting to shoot us all. Burping, farting, and crude jokes, we've all learned to keep those things away from the ladies.
Now, being so essentially male, I've found gay guys to be very congenial, as long as they're the masculine type gay guys. Being a biker and into leather I find myself instantly at home among any biker types gay or straight, and when I was living near there, I was a regular at a leather bar in San Jose called Renegades. I think at least a quarter of the guys thought I was a guy at first, and the welcome and friendliness I got there far exceeds any lesbian bar (yuk!) or straight bar I've gone to. Although divey straight bars are pretty damn cool too.
Now, I can get along with these more masculine gay guys because we're on the same sheet of music, they just like guys and I like girls. But we're both masculine, like leather and bikes and well, cool stuff. But things got interesting when I met my last GF and started taking her there, we'd go in the afternoon when there was almost no one there and make out on the bench in the back. The mood from the guys changed then, it was like, Oh, she really does like girls, and I got some comments. I think a lot of 'em really did have some interest in me, and my putting the smooth moves on a girl and so obviously enjoying it made me a traitor in a way lol. Now my GF and I are split up and I'm single again, and when I'm up there I'll still go to Renegades and have a beer or two, and I'm welcomed. Frankly there are not many there who actually wear leather and go everywhere on a motorcycle so that gets me cool points.
I guess I'll always consider the more macho gay bars to be places of friendliness and refuge, since I can go hang out with guys and have a good time without being hit on (I suspect even when fully passing, no one would make a pass at me, as a dominant type, I'm expected to make the passes lol) and just hang out, play pool talk etc.
Lesbian bars are high drama. By high drama I mean hair-pulling, parking lot brawls, and games like coming on to a person, when they show interest then going to the other side of the room and sending one's "ex" GF over to try to start a fight, then I guess the person and the "ex" go home and have hot make-up sex. Drama, drama, drama. One half of a couple screeching away in the car, the other half drunkenly begging for a ride. More one-upmanship than among a group of teenage boys at a hot-rod show. Otherwise very intelligent, thoughtful women go to these places and act in this junior-high way, it's amazing.
Frankly I am not going to miss all this emotional stuff. I am not going to miss being a "lesbian" one iota. And as a "lesbian" my hunting ground was among 5% of females, as a guy it's among the other 95%. Does this make me homophobic against lesbians?
I probably have a too-rosy view of the gay male scene, for most gay males it may be as full of frustration and hassle as I've found the lesbian scene to be.
I think a lot of transpeople are just glad to see much more of the world open up to them and want to be out of their slice of the gay scene and never look back. And sometimes the anger and frustration comes out in the form of homophobic comments.
The problem is, there's still no excuse for hating. There's no excuse for not supporting marriage equality, etc. I can't tell you how many lesbians I've run into who voted for McCain.
Post Merge: September 02, 2009, 01:23:14 PM
Becca - a lot of these guys like GUYS. They don't want soft and sweet, they want firm and hard and smelling a bit like leather and WD-40.
I have nothing constructive to add, I just wanted to say I agree with everything in this post :P
Wow.
I'm pretty sure that post would get me banned for life on another site I've been active on.
Wer'e a lil higher class around here.
Certainly understanding, humor, and not the hair-trigger tempers I've seen elsewhere .......
Were you trying to be funny with that post? I thought it was spot on. I've never been to a lesbian bar but it's not hard to imagine the scene you described.
I was trying to be truthful, but yeah I do use some humor to get points across.
Sigh. The emotionality among lesbians is very high. Once you know 'em you can see the scripts they're following almost like subtitles.
Like, I go in the bar and since everyone's pretty damn antisocial (and in their little cliques) I strike up a convo with a tall, good looking girl. I quickly find out she's a career alcoholic who's lost her driver's license and may be heading to jail, and is an utter psycho. She's got some circle of people who seem to be her friends not sure and I kinda wander off.... so I end up talking with a cute, intelligent, gal who's not the bar type, came to meet a friend she says, never comes there she says. We're talking about all this stuff, in the back of the place which is slightly less ear-splitting and then out by my motorcycle. All's cool and I'm happy - maybe I've found someone who isn't a bar fly and is nice, intelligent, etc. Well after talking for hours who comes wandering out but.... the psycho. Now my new interest is about to leave, and the psycho keeps hassling her, not just asking but hassling, for a ride. My girl's car is full of stuff, she's moving, and keeps saying she can't really. Plus the psycho is getting posessive about me, "I was talking with Alex first" etc. The script is clear: I'm supposed to duke out the psycho or at least pin her arm and march her back into the bar, then I'll be the hero to the cute girl and all that. Except the cops get called at that bar ALL the time and I don't need charges for assault against me. So I just stay calm and wish 'em well after urging the psycho to call a cab, which she's not gonna do, and the cute girl to take care etc. And I ride off. And the cute girl takes the psycho home and they have hot drama-induced sex. And I email the cute intelligent girl and she's "too busy with her life to be with someone" lol. She got her romp with the psycho and now she's good for 6 months lol.
Now, granted, the cute smart girl sounded like she had a lot on her plate in her life and if I'd had the money to just take care of her problems for her I'd have suddenly seemed VERY interesting to her. But, I don't, and am too emotionally even to be thrilling I guess.
This is not just bar stuff, this is every day life stuff, life as a John Waters movie.
It's the same in "rap groups" social groups etc etc etc except they're less fun because you don't get to drink.
I had gone with an acquaintance who left me stranded. I was in a major city and soon people began accosting me. Plus I was having visual difficulty due to injuries.
I ducked into the first place I could. It turned out to be a lesbian bar.
They were very nice. They let me make long distance phone calls to find someone to come get me and gave me free drinks while I waited. I offered to pay what I had. They would not take my money. So I thanked them and left what I had on the bar when I left
Random acts of kindness go a long way
That was a most excellent story Alex, I want to be a smart and cute lesbian and romp with psychos! Well, not, but it sounds like fun in the story. More lesbian bar tales please! :police:
That is super cool.
I have seen bio-female lesbians in the same circumstances treated well if they are cute.....
Shall I catalogue the many idiocies of relationships among straight people I have observed over the years? The women fawning over some creepy guy with greasy hair and a couple of moves on a dance floor? The completely clueless insensitivity to any emotional needs that guys so often express toward their girlfriends? And many worse ...
No, you all know the stereotypes. And of course, there are stereotypes that apply to gay men and lesbians as well. The thing is, if you happen to be involved in whichever scene, you actually get something from the relationships buried under all that apparent external drama. If you're not, you are like Screwtape trying to figure out the value added in this bizarre "love" scheme. I ended up in the lesbian category, and it works pretty darn well for me, thankyouverymuch.
There is one thing in particular that leads to the transphobic gay people and the straight homophobic trans people: that the very existence of the other group undermines the group's legitimacy. Gay guys suffer and straight trans women tend to be conflated in the popular understanding (with plenty of help from campy floats at pride parades featuring drag queens), mostly because of the inability of society as a whole (and occasionally gay and trans people) to understand the difference between sex, gender, and sexuality.
But just because part of the oppression that one experiences consists of being seen as "one of them," it doesn't make it okay to discriminate against "them."
Oh believe me I've seen, and heard even more, of the dysfunctional stuff straight ppl do!
It's one of my points that the drama IS because those doing it get something out of it. I don't, I hate it, I like girls but I just don't like drama. Heh can I be the creepy (by which is probably meant working-class) guy with a greasy motorcycle and a couple of moves on the dance floor? Just as long as I'm not required to have greasy *hair* lol.
It's good to hear the lesbian thing works for you, my hat's off to anyone it works for.
And nothing nothing nothing (I said it once but apparently it didn't sink in) justifies discriminating against someone just because they are of the "other" group. That should be elementary but maybe it's not to everyone. My posts have been both sharing my experiences and also explaining how in an individual without a strong sense of sportsmanship, alienation could result in discrimination.
Quote from: Alex_C on September 03, 2009, 01:39:26 AM
That is super cool.
I have seen bio-female lesbians in the same circumstances treated well if they are cute.....
I'm not sure how cute I am, But I was def. treated well :icon_chick:
I typed a big longish bar story for you Becca and since like most computer stuff nowadays the site is pertially broken, I could not post it. Or save it etc.
Except for the being girls thing, lesbians sound pretty fun. To be terribly honest I haven't really known all that many, but I have been tempted recently to give them a shake basically because theyr'e the only people who will have me. Maybe if I could find a big strong one. The thing is, I don't drink or smoke or really do anything fun, so the bar scene is really kind of out for me.
I don't like the word dysfunctional, because psychologically speaking nobody is fully functional. Words like that tend to make us feel bad about being the humans we are.
This type of stuff really just doesn't make sense to me. I have known gay and lesbian people who are against bisexuals or transgendered people. I don't know many transpeople but the fact that there are some who are homophobic does not even surprise me.
I used to love everyone in the GLBT community unless they gave me a reason to not like them, simply because I could relate to some of what they've gone through. But there's so much hatred within the community that I really don't care about it anymore. People who belong to the GLBT a lot of the time think they can say whatever the hell they want because they must be "open-minded" since they're "different", and I just don't believe in that. And it's not just one group against the other, there are a lot of trans people who are just unsupportive of other transpeople, because maybe that person doesn't "pass" as well, or lives somewhere where they're unable to get hormones. It's messed up. I'm getting kind of off topic now... but yeah. Not surprising to me at all.
Post Merge: September 03, 2009, 02:48:56 AM
Quote from: Icephoenyx on September 01, 2009, 01:30:38 PM
I also think that, from my experience, gay people are more open minded all together, so they will probably be more accepting of TGs. They may not like us in their bars, but they won't kick us out, either.
I respectfully disagree with this. Gay people are more open-minded when it comes to sexuality, and that's about it. I have met way more gay people who are very quick to judge someone by their appearance, or judge someone because they act differently than they do. A lot of people I've met within the GLBT have been extreme narcissists and aren't willing to accept people who have a different outlook/experience than them. As a whole, my straight friends are much more open-minded in general, and also with accepting my transition.
*Of course, this is only my experience. I'm not say either of us are right or wrong
Chamillion, that's interesting. I guess it's a matter of experience. It also really depends on the person/people you are dealing with. Overall, I think its all insecurity and/or lack of knowledge, whether they are gay, straight, trans, etc.
I really don't like the 'GLBT' umbrella term, there are too many animosities between people and too many exceptions that it just doesn't work.
As a straight MtF who is pre-transition, it is hard to fit in anywhere, really. I'm a gay guy to most, a poser ->-bleeped-<- to others, and it can be tough, knowing that you are something you can't readily express. I used to love going to gay bars, I felt like that was the only place where I could belong, but those places really don't do anything for me. I've never had a negative experience with the gay community, but I don't feel like they are my best friends either.
I quickly find out she's a career alcoholic who's lost her driver's license and may be heading to jail, and is an utter psycho.
That girl is at every bar, in every town, at all times. I know, I've met every single one.
Loving crazy is great, until crazy loves you back.