From everything I learned growing up and from a lot of what I see and hear today, many are motivated to do and believe certain things because they fear "damnation". In other words, going to hell. But how does anyone know hell exists?
I have yet to see a single thread of evidence that there is a hell.
A lot of people believe aliens have visited this world and many of them believe aliens have influenced our development, technology and other things. And many have submitted their evidence to support their claims. Some of which leaves a lot of unanswered questions.
And, of course, there's plenty of people who think those who believe in extraterrestrial life are kooks because there is, by their analysis, no evidence.
But I don't hear anyone providing supporting evidence as to why they believe there is a hell. And I rarely hear anyone asking for it. I can't think of one instance where the scientific community is even bothering with this issue. But then again, they usually don't study something unless there's at least some evidence it exists.
Maybe this hell thing is kind of like the bogeyman. If you don't do what I say, the bogeyman will get you!
Julie
(Here I go, the heathen, replying on the christianity forum... I really should stop reading the bible...)
You have to remember that the modern hell is not the same thing as the original judeo-christian hell. Originally it referred to being separate from god, being without god.
It was in the early middle ages that the christian faith borrowed imagery from all other world religions to turn it into the fiery pit in the center of the planet.
I'm an atheist so I don't believe there is a heaven nor a hell. Though this 'hell' is very powerful. I have often heard people say they worship god because 'what if hell really does exist'?
Well, the center of the earth is a kind of fiery pit - at least it molten rock, which is very hot.
I'd say we know hell exists because we know that Jersey exists, and its not that far to think that something might be worse.
if hell really exists I'd much rather be there than heaven. I mean, who would you rather spend eternity? all the cool people go to hell and heaven is left with xtians. eeewwww. >:-) >:-)
*window seat on the ride, thanks!
Here i go again....
[disclaimer - what follows is not an argument that hell does in fact exist, just n answer to the question]
those who believe hell exists do so because their "holy" scriptures tell them that it does.
In the case of Christianity, the most vocal figure about hell in the entire Bible is Jesus himself.
also, it's worth noting that there is a potential distinction between the figurative descriptions of Hell (and Satan, btw), many of which come from works of fiction (Dante for instance) rather than from Scripture, and the existence of SOME place which Christ referred to as hell.
Now, there are - of course - many arguments, usually highly misinformed, that what you have in the modern bible doesn't at all reflect what the first century church or its founder actually said and did....but obviously the one who believes in hell doesn't believe them.
So, the "evidence" for hell is only and entirely what is found in the given religion's holy books.
By the way, and again, I'm NOT arguing FOR the "eternal damnation" version of hell BUT
the tired canard "I'd rather go to hell because that's where all the cool people will be partying" is nonsensical.
If it is not, in fact, a place of suffering, then it's not "hell" - if it is hell, it is by definition a place where no one wants to be and no one is having a good time.
Even if it's not fire and brimstone, it can't be hell if you can enjoy being there.
Hell is a fictitious place invented by man in order to scare the "Hell" out of us. The odds of ETs NOT existing are next to impossible. Given the vastness of the universe it is impossible for there not to be many other planets that support some type of life.
Post Merge: September 04, 2009, 02:41:37 PM
Dear Julie Marie, There is a Hell. It is about 1/2 hour from Ann Arbor MI. on Lake Patteron Road. It is situated between Lake Michigan and Lake Huron so they get the wind off of the lakes. So there are cold days in Hell.
For me personally, Denver in the depths of winter is Hell. I loathe the cold; dry cold especially.
P.S. I beleive living in Washington D.C. would be much worse than being in Hell.
Quote from: Genevieve Swann on September 04, 2009, 02:43:42 PM
P.S. I beleive living in Washington D.C. would be much worse than being in Hell.
The worst Chicago can dish out might be in the running. I went to college in Denver and it wasn't nearly as bad as Chicago.
Maybe we should threaten people with eternal damnation in DC or Chicago, where every day is the worst those cities can dish out. And, if you're in Chicago, your gas is turned off and you have to call City Hall to complain.
Julie
Yeah, try Cleveland.
I lived through hell..... does that count? ;)
From a religious perspective..... if God is a loving father, how could we conceive that he would cause any of his children to suffer for eternity?
Even a human father can forgive his murdering child. Does not God have greater compassion?
The logic, at least in my twisted mind, does not account for the possibility of Hell's existence.
Cindi
I could argue that point Cindi, but I won't.
Hell is....your best friend saying you don't really want to transition, losing your family because they can't see you being anything other than what they have always believed before, losing your home because you are not what others thought, being lied to by your employer for shortening your hours and not giving the raise they 'promised', ..need I go on.
Shhhh, don't tell anyone :icon_suspicious: but planet earth is hell >:-) It's just disguised well with greenery,flowers and cute animals to keep us guessing
Off course there is Hell. Try being sick in bed with no voice and someone is reading the Readers Digest to you and you can't stop them AHHHH >:-) >:-) :laugh:
As for alien visitors, I think it was Carl Sagan who noted that Aliens had not visted Earth, because there in no mounds of Alien junk. Everytime Earthlings visit a planet or a moon we leave heaps of rubbish behind.
Cindy
Quote from: LordKAT on September 05, 2009, 01:34:34 AM
I could argue that point Cindi, but I won't.
Hell is....your best friend saying you don't really want to transition, losing your family because they can't see you being anything other than what they have always believed before, losing your home because you are not what others thought, being lied to by your employer for shortening your hours and not giving the raise they 'promised', ..need I go on.
Exactly..... that was what I meant by my statement that I have lived through hell. It was absolutely the worst few years of my life. But that is far behind me now.
Cindi
The point I was saying I could argue deals with religion. I don't believe all people to be children of god.
i'm an atheist & i don't believe in hell. "hell" is just a concept meant to instill fear, and in turn fear controls the gullible minded.
I believe that hell is the absence of love. Those who wish to damn you there, take away their love. God is love, and if we love our idea of God, then we will in turn be loved.
I,for one, am lucky to be loved.
And maybe the greatest gift we can give, or that has been given to us, is love.
Amen to that.
Without Hell think of how many great rock songs would have been lost.
Highway to Hell, Hell is for Children, Hell's Bells, Hell Ain't a Bad Place to Be, Rock and Roll Hell, Straight to Hell, just to name a few.
The word in the original Hebrew that's been rendered as "Hell" is usually Sheol. It just means "the grave" and it's got nothing in common with the medieval conception of hell. It's complicated by the fact that Gehenna is also translated as "Hell" - Gehenna is a place of fire where the wicked go to be annihilated (not tortured) after death.
Quote from: Kait on September 19, 2009, 10:48:25 AM
It's complicated by the fact that Gehenna is also translated as "Hell" - Gehenna is a place of fire where the wicked go to be annihilated (not tortured) after death.
My understanding is that Gehenna was the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem's walls. I haven't dug into though, so I might be spreading FUD without basis.
I feel a little bad posting in the Christianity forums, since I'm not Christian, but here's my own idea of hell(which may or may not work for others): for me, hell isn't a group experience. It's not a place you go to hang out with other damned souls. Hell is a very personal experience designed specifically for you. Because it's created by you, from your own mind, your own psyche. It's not punitive - it's simply a process that's intrinsic to the mind/soul/self. If your soul leaves the physical with unfinished business or unfinished lessons to learn, that carries with you into the after-life. It would "haunt" you as something unresolved that you can't now resolve because you're no longer incarnate. It's like leaving a conversation and realizing that something you said didn't come across right or that maybe you offended somebody and feel bad - it's something you mull over because you can't resolve it. That's why I think it's so important to resolve what we can now, because if you don't, it will carry with you into the great beyond and, if you're in the camp that believes in reincarnation, into your next life. So, for me, hell is not a place(we all go to the same "place"), it's a state of mind - the one where you're haunted by the physical because you didn't resolve issues and tackle challenges like you were meant to.
That's hell for me anyway. I believe spirituality is individualistic because the soul is a portion of the mind and each of us is unique. If believing in a pit of fire and brimstone works for you and feels like the fundamental truth that resonates with you, then that is how it is for you. If there's no resonance, then it's time to move on.
Quote from: calliope on September 19, 2009, 11:01:00 AM
My understanding is that Gehenna was the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem's walls. I haven't dug into though, so I might be spreading FUD without basis.
It's not FUD - you're right. It was a place where rubbish was burned. and it's the namesake of the place of annihilation. There was a great deal of conflation of the two - tradition holds that the physical valley of Gehenna has a gate to a lake of fire.
Quote from: calliope on September 19, 2009, 11:01:00 AM
I feel a little bad posting in the Christianity forums, since I'm not Christian.
A lot of people posting on this thread - including me - aren't Christian. No one will eat us as long as we're respectful.
In A Course in Miracles, Jesus says there is no such thing as sin, only mistakes and the chance to choose again.
If there is no sin, there is no need for hell or for purgatory.
Robyn
Not all of Christianity believes there is a hell. If some don't find out why? might make things look diffrent to you. I don't care what area of Christianity one comes from it is not good to think that (this is all there is to it). I don't want to say this right that is wrong because I have done that in the past just to be proved wrong. there is always a reason for the other persons views or they would not see it that way. you can put each groups teaching in a box of its own to sort them out. without compromizing you own views. if we are free we should be free to view all views without affending God.
Quote from: Miniar on September 04, 2009, 12:35:52 PM
(Here I go, the heathen, replying on the christianity forum... I really should stop reading the bible...)
You have to remember that the modern hell is not the same thing as the original judeo-christian hell. Originally it referred to being separate from god, being without god.
It was in the early middle ages that the christian faith borrowed imagery from all other world religions to turn it into the fiery pit in the center of the planet.
This.
I don't think there's a hell and I'm slightly Christian, and I don't think there's a purgatory (but I learned that purgatory was only talked about after the Black Death in the 1300s and never before so it influenced me). I don't like the idea of a place that people go to if they 'sin' or they go to if they're not Christian, I can't see why God would really care if someone believed in something else.
Maybe ET's are fallen angels.
Quote from: laineyjain on July 26, 2010, 11:41:59 PM
Not all of Christianity believes there is a hell. If some don't find out why? might make things look diffrent to you. I don't care what area of Christianity one comes from it is not good to think that (this is all there is to it). I don't want to say this right that is wrong because I have done that in the past just to be proved wrong. there is always a reason for the other persons views or they would not see it that way. you can put each groups teaching in a box of its own to sort them out. without compromizing you own views. if we are free we should be free to view all views without affending God.
As Cindy Jones says earlier, the notion of hell is a contradiction.
I figured, many years ago, that it's also rather insulting to God to even suggest that He would take any satisfaction is watching people suffer.
I later discovered the mistranslations referred to by Kait.
Then it occured to me that the whole notion is based upon our perception of revenge. Others do, what we percieve as bad. We satisfy ourselves that they will get theirs later.
But this assumes that what others do is bad. We can cite the behaviour of, for example Blair. His behaviour is evil. But however terrible is was for those affected, those in Iraq and Afghanistan and Iraq, for example, but also the military people whose minds have been permanently scared by what they have been forced to witness and do. Some of these troops have behaved in terrible ways themsleves, from a human perspective, we are looking at pure evil.
But would this be the same perspective for an omnipitent, omnipresent being?
It is often asked, how can a loving God allow some people to suffer? How could the God of the Jews allow the murders of WW2? Why do bad things happen to good people?
To say that it is some sort of devine retribution returns to the insult to God. To call it a test removes omnipitance.
For an omnipitent being, all time exists in the same way as all space exists for those with sight. Time, for an omnipitant being isn't a sequence, it's a single event.
However terrible some events are, within the entire event that consists of time from the begining to the end, however much many people suffer, in the greater scheme of things, in the scheme of the entire universe, from the begining of time to the end, each of these is part of that single, greater event.
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Has anyone been to http://www.tentmaker.org (http://www.tentmaker.org) If not it would be a good place to learn about this stuff. I hope this helps.