Hi all,
I have been considering going on HRT before it's "too late" so to speak. However, I need to keep up both a male and female appearance and the results I've heard from HRT are mixed. Obvious differences may be simply breast size and fat redistribution which can be remedied if you're trying to pass as male, however, what about facial features?
I guess what I'm saying is, if you don't have make-up on do you still look like a guy?
Thanks all.
QuoteI guess what I'm saying is, if you don't have make-up on do you still look like a guy?
It really does differ from individual to individual. Some MtF, even with HRT, still retain overtly masculine features which require FFS to address. Others feminize quite readily. An almond shaped face with high cheekbones will adapt differently to a strong brow and a square jaw :)
Depending on your reasons for wanting to present as either gender, you may want to consider carefully whether HRT is right for you (maybe with the help of a therapist?)
Finewine,
Thanks for the reply. I guess I should have given a better introduction; perhaps because of my naivete to this whole matter and a sense of urgency as I escape my early twenties (currently 24) I am considering undergoing HRT just so I can get the "maximum possible benefit" so to speak.
I think going to a therapist is one of my first steps I should take; in reality I am fairly new to all this (just started crossdressing about a year ago with help from my gf) but always knew I had a bias for it since I had crossdressed and felt feminine when I was a young child.
Another piece of commentary that I've heard twice is that HRT is strictly for people who want to transition -- does anyone have opinion on that?
I was on HRT for a full year and presented as male at work with no questions, i've always had long hair so i guess people were used to it. I had to stop after a year for financial reasons and that was a few years back. I started HRT again 3 months ago and still present as male, but I have to admit that now people are starting to notice. :)
Quote from: omega1251 on September 11, 2009, 05:51:51 AM
Another piece of commentary that I've heard twice is that HRT is strictly for people who want to transition -- does anyone have opinion on that?
HRT is absolutely intended for people who are transitioning*, but as finewine said everyone has different results, and you may be able to "hide" some physical traits, but you will alter your body's chemistry and some changes will be permanent. you really shouldn't consider HRT unless you plan on transitioning.
HTH
*at least for purposes discusses here.
Quote from: omega1251 on September 11, 2009, 05:51:51 AM
[...]
I think going to a therapist is one of my first steps I should take; in reality I am fairly new to all this (just started crossdressing about a year ago with help from my gf) but always knew I had a bias for it since I had crossdressed and felt feminine when I was a young child.
Oh definitely getting some advice from a good therapist who
understands the gender identity space is very important. That's not to question your feelings or call your identity into doubt but more to help you unravel your needs, desires and options. Also, it's pretty much a prerequisite for getting HRT under medical oversight, I believe.
I sincerely wish you good luck in these early steps into a new world :)
Quote
Another piece of commentary that I've heard twice is that HRT is strictly for people who want to transition -- does anyone have opinion on that?
Ditto what beth-chella said.
Quote from: omega1251 on September 11, 2009, 05:51:51 AM
Finewine,
Thanks for the reply. I guess I should have given a better introduction; perhaps because of my naivete to this whole matter and a sense of urgency as I escape my early twenties (currently 24) I am considering undergoing HRT just so I can get the "maximum possible benefit" so to speak.
I think going to a therapist is one of my first steps I should take; in reality I am fairly new to all this (just started crossdressing about a year ago with help from my gf) but always knew I had a bias for it since I had crossdressed and felt feminine when I was a young child.
Another piece of commentary that I've heard twice is that HRT is strictly for people who want to transition -- does anyone have opinion on that?
Can I still pass as a male? Yes. I get sir'd pretty frequently, however - I think it has a lot to do with my voice (which I am working on). I don't think it's ever "too late", but I think earlier in life is better than later in life. So, I understand what you are going through, I am 22 myself. The other thing is, that HRT is not an overnight thing. I mean, you wont start HRT and two weeks later have a B cup and a new face. I had noticeable results in about 2 months, but it was nothing I couldn't hide (not that I was). I have been on HRT for 7 months and am around AA's. I did have FFS so I can't say how much my face changed because of HRT. I can say that my skin has gotten way way better, and before FFS, only my really close friends noticed the very small changes to my face. It looked just a bit more androgynous. I had FFS at about 4 months after starting HRT.
Is HRT for people who want to transition. Yes and No. I don't think you need to transition to be on HRT. What if HRT is all that you need? Should you still transition all the way? No, I don't think so. I don't think it should be limited to people who are going to transition all the way. However, if you are transitioning all the way, then HRT is right as well.
Here is what the WPATH Standards of Care states
QuoteCan Hormones Be Given To Those Who Do Not Want Surgery or a Real-life Experience?
Yes, but after diagnosis and psychotherapy with a qualified mental health professional following minimal standards listed above. Hormone therapy can provide significant comfort to gender patients who do not wish to cross live or undergo surgery, or who are unable to do so. In some patients, hormone therapy alone may provide sufficient symptomatic relief to obviate the need for cross living or surgery.
Here is what I have learned. You need to do what YOU need to do. You can get advice from other people here, or people elsewhere but it all boils down to you. Get a therapist. If you are in college try on campus. If not, try and find one near you.
Lastly, Therapists, HRT, FFS, are not magic. Think about this. When you start HRT, whats going to change? You are not going to become this brand new person. You are still going to be living in the same place, hanging out with the same friends, have the same job, etc. The only thing that is changing is that you're taking HRT. The same goes for surgery. After SRS, the only thing that is going to change is the fact that you now have a vagina, and hopefully you are a bit happier and more at peace than you were before.
I hope that this helps. PM me if you need anything.
Post Merge: September 11, 2009, 09:55:24 AM
Quote from: finewine on September 11, 2009, 07:18:44 AM
Oh definitely getting some advice from a good therapist who understands the gender identity space is very important. That's not to question your feelings or call your identity into doubt but more to help you unravel your needs, desires and options. Also, it's pretty much a prerequisite for getting HRT under medical oversight, I believe.
Here is what WPATH Standards of Care states for adults.
Quote
Eligibility Criteria. The administration of hormones is not to be lightly undertaken because of
their medical and social risks. Three criteria exist.
1. Age 18 years;
2. Demonstrable knowledge of what hormones medically can and cannot do and their social
benefits and risks;
3. Either:
a. A documented real-life experience of at least three months prior to the administration
of hormones; or
b. A period of psychotherapy of a duration specified by the mental health professional
after the initial evaluation (usually a minimum of three months).
In selected circumstances, it can be acceptable to provide hormones to patients who have not fulfilled criterion 3 – for example, to facilitate the provision of monitored therapy using
hormones of known quality, as an alternative to black-market or unsupervised hormone use.
Readiness Criteria. Three criteria exist:
1. The patient has had further consolidation of gender identity during the real-life
experience or psychotherapy;
2. The patient has made some progress in mastering other identified problems leading to
improving or continuing stable mental health (this implies satisfactory control of
problems such as sociopathy, substance abuse, psychosis and suicidality;
3. The patient is likely to take hormones in a responsible manner.
Sorry for the long post. I tend to get carried away.
I experienced dramatic facial changes on hrt in the first 6 months. I started shortly after my 28th birthday and have taken the dosages rec'd by my doctor (i.e not doing an unsafe dosage etc)
People at work thought I had undergone facial surgery and were aware of the changes. After coming out one co-workers pretty much pinpointed when I started.
Do not start HRT unless you want to (OMG) risk not looking like a man.
The results will depend on a lot of factors and there isn't much research into it: hence no real rules to guide you for possible futures. Some facts though, the older you are, the less the changes. You are (relative to this) very young, so you have the chance of more extensive changes. BUT, you'll not know what till you have been on HRT for months. It is definitely not something to do as an experiment, remember, to a degree it is a one way street.
The facial changes that are possible from HRT are not usually very dramatic. Your bone structure, which is a lot of what makes you look male or female, is fixed ( assuming no FFS). The only thing that can change from the drugs is soft tissues and mostly it is from fat re-distribution ( unless you start HRT before age 16 or so). Obviously how you look plays into this a lot. Me for example, I have a bony thin face. Hence I pretty much look the same and probably always will. Do I look like a guy without makeup ? Yes. That said, I also get Mame'd a lot these days. How people id your gender is very complex - even with a male face you may "pass" easily. Sorry if this isn't a firm answer - sadly on this topic, there isn't one.
I guess I didn't actually answer the question. Can I pass as a male without makeup? Yes. I haven't been doing my makeup lately. Been spending more time on my hair.
I think without my voice I pass with or without makeup. For example, I went through the drive through and the person at the first window said sir because I talked with him. The person at the second window didn't talk with me and said ma'am.
I believe that you really need to talk with a qualified person - a therapist - before starting HRT. Whether you can get the drugs without it isn't the question. The question to be answered is: What is right for you? Before you answer that question thoroughly, I strongly believe you should not start changing the hormonal balance of your system.
Yes, they work better on younger people than older people, but I am getting excellent results starting on them in my (OMG!) 60s. :D
I know this doesn't answer the question you asked, Omega, but - really - talk to someone qualified to help you figure out what you want and need. Hormones are powerful drugs.
And good luck to you on your journey of self-discovery. :)
- Kate
short answer yeah I still can without many problems hehe.
Quote from: omega1251 on September 11, 2009, 05:51:51 AM
Another piece of commentary that I've heard twice is that HRT is strictly for people who want to transition -- does anyone have opinion on that?
The place I go to has a policy something like 'helping each individual get to the place they want to be' -- but at the same time they do their best to avoid starting people on things that they're not ready for. There's the whole thing called the Standards of Care that a lot of places follow, but not every place follows it right to the letter. The best thing you can do is find a therapist who specializes in gender issues ('has experience with gender issues' doesn't really count, but will do if you can't find anyone else). If/when you find one of those therapists they can really help you figure out where you want to go and how you want to get there. If your therapist starts telling you that you're one way and not another or vice versa, find a new therapist :P.
Regarding what CharleneT said, you don't have to start at 16 to have completely female body, there are many people who have very narrow and female height bodies, it a lot depends on genetics and how you went through your puberty.
Just like there are women who grow taller and wider like men.
So, it varies.
There are people who after HRT had very feminine bodies but needed to have FFS to pass, and people who didn't need a thing.
Some were starting around their end of their puberty or early twenties or before, some manage later too, all depends
OK, wow I'm overwhelmed with the number of responses here. Thanks so much! I'll take the appropriate actions before pursuing a life-altering path.
Thanks to all.
O
Quote from: AmyM on September 11, 2009, 11:03:24 AM
I experienced dramatic facial changes on hrt in the first 6 months.
This is somewhat true, but in any case one sure way to pass as male is to open your mouth.
Quote from: Becca on September 13, 2009, 01:56:07 PM
This is somewhat true, but in any case one sure way to pass as male is to open your mouth.
;D
Yesterday I was talking with a girlfriend. I don't remember what we were talking about, but I did the deep voice "What's going on here?" or something and almost choked myself after with a coughing fit. :P Gradually your voice gets used to not using that register. But I've still got at best a whiskey tenor. ;)
- Kate
Quote from: Myself on September 13, 2009, 02:15:01 AM
Regarding what CharleneT said, you don't have to start at 16 to have completely female body, there are many people who have very narrow and female height bodies, it a lot depends on genetics and how you went through your puberty.
Just like there are women who grow taller and wider like men.
So, it varies.
There are people who after HRT had very feminine bodies but needed to have FFS to pass, and people who didn't need a thing.
Some were starting around their end of their puberty or early twenties or before, some manage later too, all depends
Quite right ! I didn't respond very clearly, I was referring to whether you could change the underlying bone structure via HRT. This is only possible before the bones are completely grown and fixed -- hence before age 16. After that and you can only change the soft tissues. Sorry, I wasn't talking about how feminine a person might already look.
for me it really depends on what im whearing. but id say 40% of te time i can sstill eally pass as a guy if i try
Unfortunately yes.
I am six months into transition and to be honest, I am at the stage where I want to see dramatic changes. Transition cannot happen quickly enough!
I know everyone is different but I am constantly amazed by the changes in others. I also know that I have to be patient and transition takes time.
I know I have changed. My breasts are slowly developing, I have lost a load of weight and my face has softened. I just cannot wait until the male me has gone.
Work colleagues and friends have noticed changes. Particularly the loss of weight but I don't think any of them have guessed the true reason.
Probably. But Why? ??? ??? ???
Janet
You really shouldnt take hrt unless you intend to transition,
A, there are medical problems possible, so a doctor is vital.
B, It makes you sterile in roughly 6 months, and the little thingy wont work.... (if you think thats bad i guess)
C, its a big thing
For me, I cant pass as male anymore, I just look like a girl... I suspect with some effort I could pass as male, but it would probably end up with mascara stubble to do it.... and then I'm not sure.
Quote from: omega1251 on September 11, 2009, 05:51:51 AM
Finewine,
Thanks for the reply. I guess I should have given a better introduction; perhaps because of my naivete to this whole matter and a sense of urgency as I escape my early twenties (currently 24) I am considering undergoing HRT just so I can get the "maximum possible benefit" so to speak.
I think going to a therapist is one of my first steps I should take; in reality I am fairly new to all this (just started crossdressing about a year ago with help from my gf) but always knew I had a bias for it since I had crossdressed and felt feminine when I was a young child.
Another piece of commentary that I've heard twice is that HRT is strictly for people who want to transition -- does anyone have opinion on that?
Ive been on HRT for a year and unfortunately yes I can still present as male. Hopefully FFS next month will remedy this
I don't wear make up half of the time, and sometimes I'll go out wearing boy clothes or whatever -- like when I went to the local gay club with my girlfriend. And, no, I can't pass as male. But I can pass as a butch-ish lesbo. :D I'm weird, I'm normal, average girly most of the time, but sometimes I'll go out looking more butch. I went though a phase with a chelsea hair cut and looked really butch lesbian... I don't think anyone called me a guy even with that hair cut. LOL (Chelsea cut is long bangs in front, and shaved back... I then let it grow out a bit, and spiked the back, shortened the bangs a bit.)
Although the hair cut was fun, I'm now growing it out more and looking more fem... I like to do the soft-butch thing sometimes, and look all Shane like (From the L word). Just 'cause she's hot. I add my own style to it. My GF cut her hair short recently, too. So, she's going shorter and I'm going longer now. LOL
But, yeah, I don't think I can pass as male.
In my head, however, sometimes I think I look boy-ish and all that. The world is different, however, 'cause in reality I don't get any issues -- but my head is completely different. I see things others probably don't see. I don't know *shrugs* I'll go on about how horrible my voice is although no one has ever called me sir on the phone and no one has said that I sounded like a boy. But, in my head, I think my voice is awful.
On that point (sorry, slightly hi-jacking this thread), my gf was wondering who was Trans on my FB and i went through a through and there were a lot of trans ppl that she wouldn't of ever thought was trans. Yet, all of those ppl all has some sort of self-conscious though that they didn't pass, or they look like men in dresses, and so on. And, she's pretty honest about it, and wasn't just pretending.
I also think trans ppl can recognize other trans ppl 'cause we know what to look for. I also think that we beat ourselves up way too much. I know I go through times like that, especially when I'm depressed. A lot of ppl do that. Trans or not, we all find sometime to beat ourselves up and over analyze what we think are flaws. Sometimes, however, we just have to pick ourselves up and keep going and not let our self-beatups rule our lives.
I still pass as male after a year of HRT, but I think it's due to my size, voice, and clothing - my face is pretty androgynous and I'm pretty girly in mannerisms. I get ma'amed occasionally anyway.
Pass? I never pass as a girl.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
After 10 years on HRT.....yes I can pass as male but in a sort of Jon Bon Jovi way!
Not sure you should be starting HRT? I had to live fulltime as a female for 6 months before I could get s script. The idea is to transition into a female, not be a women this morning and a man tonight when its more convenient. Hormones put your body through hell! The changes are serious and you need to be the same about where your going
Having had FFS a few years ago, that would be very unlikely. But why would I want to? Interesting question though.
Quote from: ohRikki on October 24, 2009, 07:19:08 PM
Hormones put your body through hell!
ohmm
mine is having a fantastic time, could you please define hell?
Stuff hurts, yeah, but it's good stuff and good hurts :-*
Quote from: ohRikki on October 24, 2009, 07:19:08 PM
Not sure you should be starting HRT? I had to live fulltime as a female for 6 months before I could get s script. The idea is to transition into a female, not be a women this morning and a man tonight when its more convenient. Hormones put your body through hell! The changes are serious and you need to be the same about where your going
Puts your body through hell?
You know you're meant to be taking estrogen right? not HGH?
Quote from: ohRikki on October 24, 2009, 07:19:08 PM
Not sure you should be starting HRT? I had to live fulltime as a female for 6 months before I could get s script. The idea is to transition into a female, not be a women this morning and a man tonight when its more convenient. Hormones put your body through hell! The changes are serious and you need to be the same about where your going
I wish they were! unfortunitely if most of us are really honest many of us are still struggling to pass as female, so passing as a male would be fairly easy to many. As you say in your post the idea is to transition into a women. But the more experienced we become the more we see the reality and limitations of HRT and surgery.
Not entirely true Naturally Blonde... some yes, but some not .... i think its a fairly even split... HRT can be drastic, or can have nearly no effect. Swings and roundabouts.
Becca, glad the HRT is pleasant for you. I have had extreme mood changes, my heart races and I go for days without being able to sleep. Then I spend days in bed unable to move. My breasts have golfball size knots in them and hurt like crazy. My nipples are so sensitive I can't handle a silk blouse rubbing them. I have been sick to my stomach and had cramps. My entire body is changing, I love my soft skin, smaller facial pores and slower hair growth but for me having my body completely reshape itself has been pure hell at times. Its not something to take lightly. I have grown to a full B-cup in less than a year.
Have you considered seeing a doctor? half of those symptoms seem quite worrying...
Quote from: The None Blonde on October 27, 2009, 04:58:15 AM
Have you considered seeing a doctor? half of those symptoms seem quite worrying...
I agree
Yes, Rikki. Much of that doesn't sound good at all. See your doctor very soon and get checked out. Your heart racing and all that could be signs of bad things happening to you. :(
We each react differently, but hormones have been a blessing to me. Other than some breast pain (actually, discomfort more than pain) physically I have felt absolutely the best I have in years. Psychologically, I feel the best I have ever.
As always, YMMV.
- That annoyingly happy Kate :D
It sounds like it's definitely a matter of "how-bad-do-I-want-this" for you, and you certainly have my respect for sticking with it. I agree with the doctor sentiment though, that's not right. However don't let them just take you off randomly or automatically blame everything solely on the hormones because it could very well be something that was wrong with you before just starting to get worse.
Quote from: omega1251 on September 11, 2009, 05:32:15 AM
Hi all,
I have been considering going on HRT before it's "too late" so to speak. However, I need to keep up both a male and female appearance and the results I've heard from HRT are mixed. Obvious differences may be simply breast size and fat redistribution which can be remedied if you're trying to pass as male, however, what about facial features?
I guess what I'm saying is, if you don't have make-up on do you still look like a guy?
Thanks all.
It's really easy to live show up as a male, you could wear chest binders if boobs are prominents and with some eyeliner sticks you can create some bearded shadows etc.. but while being a "guy" before I got ma'amed anyhoo
No. My body shape is far too female to hide under anything but an oversized carboard box.
Probably not. Although I don't always pass as female, I am sure I can't really pass as male. The worst was that in-between phase when you look like a weird combo of masculine and feminine, but I'm pretty much past that stage by now. Although I've got very strong and prominent facial features, and seeking FFS, I can still pass and get ma'am'd in person without any makeup.
No I don't pass as male, even if I'm not being obviously feminine in my attire and just plain androgynous, but that's more to do with body language and the way i move and hold myself, rather than having dramatically huge boobs and hair that would put rapunzel to shame.
Sadly this free pass doesn't extend to when i open my cake hole and try and communicate with the world, but overall I think I'm happy that my body language and the way I move is read as female but a voice that isn't great, rather than being pitch perfect but with the body language of a man. Body language and the way you move is very subconscious, you do it without thinking...my voice however is something I can work on.
The Standards of care recognize HRT as the recommended treatment for a variety of conditions. I have been on a full transition level regimen to control my GD for closing in on a year with zip zero nada intention to transition. Actually, my psychologist tested and confirmed I am dyphoric about being female to the level indicating SRS AND dyphoric about being male to the level indicating SRS!
I am pretty andro, a 5'10" 146 pound beanpole, had no trouble passing as a girl before HRT and none passing as a guy now. Of course I don't use my bellowing baritone when I present female. My hair completely covers my collar along the nape of my neck and is even with my mouth on the sides. My brows have been electroed for a clean look in guy mode and a fuller natural look as a girl but I am calling it quits on the laser electro tho when I get to the point that I can still grow a VanDyke to help maintain my sense of male self.
You can pass; FTM's do it all the time. Makeup makes a huuuge difference, but I'd say facial expression has as much to do with it. I look completely different in guy mode and girl mode regardless of makeup.
Quote from: Virginia on November 28, 2010, 09:53:47 PM
You can pass; FTM's do it all the time.
Pretty much this. I could pass as male with little trouble if I wanted.
I can't pass as male, and I tried a couple halloweens ago. LMAO! I had to put make up on (fake stubble) to get close, as well as wearing male clothes and practice. I was still girly, however, 'cause I didn't pass well and I got a lot of weird looks -- passing is more than looks, btw. I found it hard to try and be male. o_0 I'm glad I don't have to go around trying to be male when I'm not. LOL
I don't wear make up often, and I haven't for a long time. During the first year of transition I did, but after that I stopped. If I wear make up I do it for myself, and most of the time it's eyeliner or I go do it up if I'm going out to something. I don't have many problems with people thinking I'm a dude, even when I shaved my head a couple years ago before having SRS. o_0 LOL I just look like a dyke. :P
Anyway, my point is that eventually you're gonna start having a hard time passing not only in looks, but psychology and over all (ie, body language).
I should point out that I've been on hrt for 4.5 years... the first year I had the majority of passing problems, but after that those problems slowly stopped until it became not much of an issue.
If you wanna go the slower route, just use a blocker until you're ready for full HRT. Talk to a therapist, see a doctor, and all that pajazz'n'stuff. But, know eventually you won't be able to hide who you are and the affects of HRT...
Yes I could if I wanted to I'm sure.
I would have to grow out my small amount of remaining facial hair it would look stupid as it would be patchy and thin but enough to be ID'ed as male... I could also stop using my female voice, Or more accurately use my male voice. Cut my hair short, Wear baggy male clothing to hide my small female attributes.
I'm nearly certain I could. Added onto that a number of people who I work with at uni think of me as male although I've been told everyone kinda knows but there embarrassed to mention anything.
In my class there is one very unobservant woman.
But she sussed it out and was one of the few who came forward and asked me in her case however it was that I spoke with her and said I would help her with her homework and I sent her some notes from my uni email, Of course because I've changed my records the computer on her end said "1 New mail from *Female name*" She thought about it and looked over at me typing away on the computer and then said to me in her Cornish accent
"Your turning into a girl aren't you?"
! *eyes look around shiftily* Yes. v.v
I pass better male than female. :'(
I'm 20 months HRT. I think I could still pass as male if I tried. I'd have to change my hair and clothes and how I walk and move. Mainly I'd have to tamp down my expressiveness - tamp it way down. But why would I want to do that when I've waited so long to let it free? ???
- Kate
I'm nearly 7 months on HRT, and have had FFS. If need be I can pass as a male. An example of why for me is doing the Laser Hair Removal, usually I have to go 7 to 10 days with not being able to shave or put on makeup. I tried both after the 48 hours, and my face started swelling, called the Spa and was informed to wait. Hence I went out in Guy Mode, or as I view it me in Drag. Informed my Gender Therapist that if I can't shave or do makeup, then I'm not going out in Public looking like a Circus Freak. He simply nodded and said, "Do what you gotta do." Even in guy mode I go by Valerie, and stay away from my male birth name.
I honestly think all mtf's can pass as male if you want too.
Some easier some may take a little effort.
I have very few male features, the few I had to begin with were softened by hrt. I pass all the time (when presenting) and get mam'ed quite a bit when presenting male.
I still would have no problem presenting male, I did it most of my life and I still do now. I don't enjoy haveing to do it now but at times in my life I was pretty good at it! :(
Its all in your attitude, if its something you don't want to do, your not going to make an effort to even try.
Shelly
Quote from: Just Shelly on December 02, 2010, 10:22:30 PM
Its all in your attitude, if its something you don't want to do, your not going to make an effort to even try.
I think you put the last bullet in the dead horse, Shelly.
Shelly is right.
We can pass if we want too.
Sport Bra, loose top, baggy pants and pull the hair back.
Can make you look like a male. (yuck) :icon_blah:
I've spent too many years look male already.
Jillieann
I can for now, but probably not a whole lot longer. The attendant stopped me from going into the men's dressing room today while I was in boy mode. I was 3 days unshaven for the electrolysis I just had a couple hours prior. I was wearing male clothes. She still thought I was trying to fool her but grudgingly let me in because all the female rooms were occupied. I guess I might finally be getting to "that point."
(8.5 months on HRT, 5.5 at full dose)
Quote from: Just Shelly on December 02, 2010, 10:22:30 PM
I honestly think all mtf's can pass as male if you want too.
Then all cis women can pass as male if they want to.
Therefore anyone of any gender can pass as anything.
Your point is flawed.
Not all MTF can pass as male.
CaitJ definatly can't. She posted a pic in the FTM passing thread dressed as a dude.....I laughed my ass off.
Guess it depends on how feminine you looked to start off, how long you've been on HRT, and how good of an actor you are :P
Right. If you dress enough like a male and act enough like a male almost anybody, regardless of birth sex, can pass as a male- especially if you have some masculine features you can bring to the forefront.
With that said, I am not sure about the wisdom of going the HRT route without committing to transition, though. I'm not really against it in principle, I think HRT alone can really help with dysphoria among other things, but you should make sure you understand where it's going to take you.
Without going into all the details, you'll probably end up a very weird looking guy (especially with your shirt off lol) that may even become unrecognizable from his past self on an emotional and mental level. That is not even mentioning the health risks, etc.
Nowadays when I do the rare man act I do get some wierd looks, now that I think on it.
Maybe my man act is loosing its' polish. Hmmmm.
Honestly, I think that with a bit of effort, most (if not all) women can pass as male. It would be disrespectful to post pictures without their permission, but I've numerous cisgirl friends who look far more male in drag than I do pre-estrogen. If you're uncomfortable dressing male though, it'll be obvious to those around you.
My big sister is a wise and gracious MTF who transitioned in the 1970's. She actually detransitioned to get into a better engineering school, retransitioned, detransitioned a second time to get a higher paying job, then retransitioned a THIRD time and has lived in stealth since the 1980's. My big sister explained to me that given the whole male supremacy pecking order in our society/culture (United States), you are assumed to be male until you give someone a reason to believe you are not. It's a bit like being innocent until proven guilty. We don't have to prove we are male. We are male by default. And we are given the courtesy of the key to the men's club house until it is clear that we are female.
So MTF's have to prove they are not male to be accepted as women and FTM's need to not give any reason to think they are female to be accepted as men. It doesn't change the importance of gender cues for passing one way or the other. But it certainly good to know if we are starting with a glass that is half full or half empty.
Quote from: Jen on December 04, 2010, 07:39:59 PM
Right. If you dress enough like a male and act enough like a male almost anybody, regardless of birth sex, can pass as a male- especially if you have some masculine features you can bring to the forefront.
That's actually really demeaning to trans men who don't pass.
Quote from: cynthialee on December 04, 2010, 07:50:37 AM
Not all MTF can pass as male.
CaitJ definatly can't. She posted a pic in the FTM passing thread dressed as a dude.....I laughed my ass off.
LOL cheers Cynthia!
Quote from: CaitJ on December 07, 2010, 03:20:37 AM
That's actually really demeaning to trans men who don't pass.
I agree!
(Out of respect for everyone's opinion, and this seems to be a topic many of us are unable to agree upon)
As I am not a trans man who is unable to pass, it's hard for me to say how I would interpret this. And anyone can be offended by anything so I hesitate to infer my values on someone else. But the qualifier "almost anyone" does give room for the exception.
Quote from: Virginia on December 05, 2010, 06:18:35 AM
So MTF's have to prove they are not male to be accepted as women and FTM's need to not give any reason to think they are female to be accepted as men. It doesn't change the importance of gender cues for passing one way or the other. But it certainly good to know if we are starting with a glass that is half full or half empty.
Wow! I never thought of it this way but I think you are absolutely correct. That would also be why attitude is so important also.
Quote from: CaitJ on December 03, 2010, 11:52:24 PM
Then all cis women can pass as male if they want to.
Therefore anyone of any gender can pass as anything.
Your point is flawed.
No Flaw there.
I can guarantee you even if Hallie Berry tried to pass as male SHE COULD, if she really wanted or needed too.
What is passing though? When you can give me a definitive answer of passing as the opposite gender, then I may be flawed.
I get mamm'ed with my hair up, hair down, grunge cloths, speaking (male voice),unshaven ect....ect.....even when I'm presenting 100% male
Does this mean I can't pass as male, No it just means people don't pay that close enough attention.
Just today I was walking out of a mens room in a convenience store, when a man walked in the same time, he said excuse me, I thought because he was in the way. I then seen the shock on his face after he turned around to look at the sign on the door. I also seen him outside as he was leaving, he had another WTF look.
If you were to ask him was I male or female, I'm sure his answer would be I don't know. So I guess to him maybe I can't pass as male, but I could go to 10 other stores that same day and maybe get sirr'ed the rest of the day.
Special snowflake, I see :-\
7 foot tall dude with bulging muscles, blue beard shadow, massive adam's apple, basso profundo voice, size 18 feet, neandethal brow bossing and huge hands can pass as a woman?
Tiny woman with soprano voice, FF breasts, extreme hourglass figure, tiny delicate hands, pixie facial features, delicate bones can pass as a man?
With both, only with a lot of surgery and HRT.
The question was: For all those on HRT: Can you still pass as male?
The answer is NO. I cannot. Say what you like about yourself, but I've tried passing as a male post HRT and I failed (as Cynthia pointed out).
My issue here is you trying to speak on behalf of everyone. Please don't do that.
Quote from: The None Blonde on October 17, 2009, 06:23:51 PM
You really shouldnt take hrt unless you intend to transition,
A, there are medical problems possible, so a doctor is vital.
B, It makes you sterile in roughly 6 months, and the little thingy wont work.... (if you think thats bad i guess)
C, its a big thing
I disagree as long as you are fully aware of the consequences of what HRT will do to you and your prepared for breast development, sterility, psychological effect ect ect, transition or not It's fine to take.
Could I pass as male? Very easily stop using my female voice, Grow my sparse and sporadic facial hair out wear my hair in such a way to emphasize my male facial attributes. wear baggy clothes to hide my small breasts I could with ease get read as male 95% of the time.
I must also disagree with the no HRT unless you transition statement.
My wife is severly depressed when not on a masculinzing level of T. On T ze is normal in moods and depression is no longer an issue.
Ze is an androgyn but due to our culture not having androgyns ze is read as female. Why should ze present male when ze is perfectly happy as is? Yes it would be better if we had a recognized gender of androgyn for hir, but it is what it is.
So ze takes hir T and does well as a masculine woman in the eyes of society.
My mate is not a man ze shouldn't be required to pretend to be one just to get the medication (HRT) that makes hir stable.
i started when i was 19...and well..it was worth it lol
Also, you are asian just like me and fortunately for us...we are just a tad bit luckier =]
Quote from: pebbles on December 11, 2010, 05:56:15 PM
I disagree as long as you are fully aware of the consequences of what HRT will do to you and your prepared for breast development, sterility, psychological effect ect ect, transition or not It's fine to take.
Could I pass as male? Very easily stop using my female voice, Grow my sparse and sporadic facial hair out wear my hair in such a way to emphasize my male facial attributes. wear baggy clothes to hide my small breasts I could with ease get read as male 95% of the time.
YES!
My thoughts exactly.
I think you pass very well, but you and I know its not overly difficult to go back to what you had to do most of your life prior to starting HRT.
As far as all those who are on HRT yes IF YOU WANT TOO! I won't say its easy, cause that means you would have to dress down and look pretty scruffy, but it can be done UNFORTUNATLY
Hell, my ex had 36 C/D cups and when she wore baggy sweatshirts, I barely noticed them. Do you honestly think I couldn't hide my little A/B cups?
Shelly
Quote from: Just Shelly on December 17, 2010, 11:00:24 PM
As far as all those who are on HRT yes IF YOU WANT TOO! I won't say its easy, cause that means you would have to dress down and look pretty scruffy, but it can be done UNFORTUNATLY
No. Do not speak for others.
You might be able to pass as your birth assigned gender, but do not assume that others can.
Quote from: CaitJ on December 18, 2010, 11:28:26 PM
No. Do not speak for others.
You might be able to pass as your birth assigned gender, but do not assume that others can.
You know, I'm not going to get in a cat fight with you, heck you'd win anyways, your bigger them me!
I am NOT speaking for others. Frankly I'm, just being realistic.
Its all about if you WANT too, but thats not any mtf's goal, if it was I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard.
I'm happy for you to have 100% confidence that you couldn't pass as male any more. I think that is a good place to get to. I know of genetic woman that have a hard time pulling off being woman, I still know they're a woman though, its what flows from them since they've been born.
I'm just more of a realist, maybe thats a bad thing.
I WILL speak for myself. I am having a hard time passing as male! does it mean I CAN"T. I don't logicilly think so.
Shelly
Quote from: Just Shelly on December 19, 2010, 10:45:58 AM
You know, I'm not going to get in a cat fight with you, heck you'd win anyways, your bigger them me!
I am?
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