Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've noticed in talking in PM's that many TG's, and they seem...off. The listening skills exhibited by MTFs are characteristic more of "male" behavior than "female", which I would imagine might throw others off. This doesn't bother me really, the point is, I think in transitioning to a woman, it would be important to learn active listening skills exhibited by many females, so they seem more "natural". Once again, not meant to be offensive, but I think it would help transition to a morewomanly state. Once again, not meant to be offensive, just an observation. Who knows, maybe I'm just being a jerk. But active listening (and understanding) is a very characteristic trait of the women I've experienced. Once again, I don't know you all (and not all of you exhibit this trait, but there are a few) well enough to see this in real life, but I think this could be a useful skill to learn to pass as womanly.

Naturally I don't know about whatever may have happened within someone elses private messages but as a general comment, it depends both on what and how one is communicating.

There are folks in my organisation who make valid points but its buried beneath such vitriol and/or attitude that nobody really listens - the mental "blast shields" just come down.  Naturally, the folks with the attitude think it's a problem with the audience's listening skills :)

The behavior I am refering to is this: when I have talked to people, on a number of occasions, I want someone to listen. Woman have a higher tendency to usually have a very good listening ability, and simply listen and understand. Some TG's (woman, not TG's but for context purposes) don't exhibit this. Some have tried to solve my problems, and seem to have a more "male" conversation style (well duh...they were socialized this way), and I think if they could develop the ability to listen in a more "female" way it would be beneficial to the transition process. Once again, an observation, not a "concrete" fact or criticism. Feel free to question my observation, I would love to hear opposing viewpoints. After all, forums are meant for discussion, right?

I feel that the ability to be a good listener and an understanding person is neither a masculine or feminine trait. But rather a human characteristic that is either inherent or learned by various individuals of either gender. Some folks are good listeners, others are not. I've met good listeners of both genders. I've also met folks of both genders who are terrible listeners.

Ok, accepting that this is a broad generalization, then yes - a common "signature" to conversational gender is that the male tends to be "problem solver" whereas the female tends to be an "empathizer".   One thing I learnt many years ago is that when a lady is sharing with me, she really doesn't want me to go on and on about what she could do and how to solve whatever issue she's having - she just wants me to listen and give her a hug.

That was just my own experience and, again, it's a broad generalization.

Wha?...did you all just say something...?

Sorry couldn't help myself.

Quote from: Virginia Marie on September 15, 2009, 04:11:31 AM
I feel that the ability to be a good listener and an understanding person is neither a masculine or feminine trait. But rather a human characteristic that is either inherent or learned by various individuals of either gender. Some folks are good listeners, others are not. I've met good listeners of both genders. I've also met folks of both genders who are terrible listeners.

I don't think it's an inherently feminine trait in that men can't do it, but the research does show that women on average are better listeners than men.  Could be because men are taught to stuff their emotions down whereas girls (generally?) are socialized to talk about their feelings more so they have more practice listening?  Nature vs nurture, who knows.

That said, I have experienced this in real life, don't know how I would notice it online.  Two MTF lawyer-type-people came to speak to my TS educational group at the therapy place I go to, and one of them just had a way of talking that lit up my 'male-dar' so to speak.  There was a clear difference between her and the other one who didn't do that.  I felt bad for thinking it, because I don't think it makes her any less TS/woman, but it's definitely something that happens and it definitely will set off warning bells in other people.

Quote from: Sammy on September 15, 2009, 04:01:16 AM. . . and I think if they could develop the ability to listen in a more "female" way it would be beneficial to the transition process.

lol Having belonged to many forums over the years on differing topics I've noticed a lot of people would rather be posting than reading - obviously it's an attention thing in need of seeing responses but in terms of *speaking* face to face . . . ?

Some people just flat don't stop talking long enough to think of something interesting to say, "brevity" is a virtue and the best way to hold someone's interest and nobody likes a "long story" lol can ya get to the point NOW please!

Sometimes I get coherent responses from folks, sometimes I don't. It doesn't seem to really matter if they're male or female.

The thing is though - would we even notice 'male-type' behaviors in ciswomen? I tend to do it automatically too at times - 'damn, that's a masculine (or feminine in the case of ftms) trait' when dealing with a transsexual or person of transsexual history. But I think that unfortunately like non-transsexuals, we too are subconsciously programmed to look for cues or remnants of the person's birth sex when we know their trans status.

There really is something to be said for the old verse 'look and ye shall find'.

And if we weren't socialized male...?  Then where does your theory end up?  I agree with Nero.  You're just placing things into either male or female and I really don't understand why you feel the need to do so.  It comes off condescending, as if MtF will never "get it".

When it comes down to it labels are just that and don't accurately depict the true depth of human nature. There is a whole spectrum of personalities and traits. Though there are tendencies for one gender to display them more prominently than the whole it doesn't make it true for all. Its filtered down to the individual and who they are, not their label.

If we all fell into the categories that people have made up to simplify the masses... well we wouldn't be us and I don't think we would be here. And I don't think I would have the interesting friends and people I know who are always breaking the mold and pushing past the age old stereotyping.

It becomes suffocating and limiting to force yourself into a specific role that isn't natural to you. If you are not the average woman than you are someone different. You could be an extraordinary woman without being typical of females.

Quote from: Nero on September 15, 2009, 06:00:01 AM
The thing is though - would we even notice 'male-type' behaviors in ciswomen?

A) Yes, or at least I do.  Mostly when contemplating who girls can act guy-ish with less repercussions, but still.



B) People are starting to get incensed over the OP but I think we're losing sight of something:  Sammy didn't say all MTFs are bad listeners etc etc, just that he noticed that SOME are.  And he didn't post here to say 'you MTFs are bad listeners and not real women!!!1' or something like that, he just said, hey here's something I notice, maybe it'll help some of you if you work on this.

So conclusion -- if you're a good listener: thanks for reading, nothing to see here, move along.  If your listening skills could use work, think on it.  And really that applies for everyone, m/f/mtf/ftm/everythinginbetween.

Now can we all go back to reading other forum posts please?

I don't think anybody's incensed. I just think we tend to notice these kinds of things more when we know somebody's trans.

Quote from: finewine on September 15, 2009, 04:15:03 AM
Ok, accepting that this is a broad generalization, then yes - a common "signature" to conversational gender is that the male tends to be "problem solver" whereas the female tends to be an "empathizer".   One thing I learnt many years ago is that when a lady is sharing with me, she really doesn't want me to go on and on about what she could do and how to solve whatever issue she's having - she just wants me to listen and give her a hug.

That was just my own experience and, again, it's a broad generalization.

I have had the same experience; my wife explained this to me early on in our marriage. It's how (some?) ciswomen think.

Since then, I've tried to be a good listener and show empathy without necessarily trying to solve whatever issue is at hand.

Quote from: riven_one on September 15, 2009, 07:41:12 AM
I have had the same experience; my wife explained this to me early on in our marriage. It's how (some?) ciswomen think.

Since then, I've tried to be a good listener and show empathy without necessarily trying to solve whatever issue is at hand.

So I'm kinda eating my hat right now... something about the internet brings out the problem solver in me :P.  I actually cancel a fair number of posts where I try to 'solve' a 'problem' and then decide that I probably don't know what I'm talking about -- but some of them get through... anyway, have fun everyone!

This is an interesting thread.

I can't say I've ever personally noticed the ability to listen as being exhibited by either one gender or the other. I suspect that what one does with the information they hear may be slightly different, and how it's processed... but the act of listening, and actually hearing what's being said, is just a skill. And, like any skill, it can be developed.

There are a number of factors that influence anyone's personality makeup, of which gender is just a very small part. And that includes the ability to listen to, and empathise with others.

Consider one possibility: A girl that has been isolated and ridiculed for being born male-bodied her whole life, who has learned to shut off from the outside world as a defence mechanism. The majority of times she listened to someone, the things said to her were derogatory and hurtful. Is it a huge surprise that she has subconsciously adopted a position of being unwilling, or more likely unable to really empathise with others at an emotional level? Her fear of being hurt or criticised leads to the reflex to only hear things at a 'skin deep' level, and her internal defences prevent anyone getting too close. This has nothing to do with her percieved gender dictating her thought patterns on a biological level. More the way she has learned to deal with others in order to make her own standard of life somewhat more acceptable.

The only real way to know why someone is the way they are is to get a picture of their life as a whole, and not just their initial appearance. The old adage of not judging a book by its cover applies perhaps. Start to read and you often find things you never even thought about. :)

Just my thoughts. :)

I feel that the ability to be a good listener and an understanding person is neither a masculine or feminine trait. But rather a human characteristic that is either inherent or learned by various individuals of either gender

This.

I think that since society tends to value that more in women then in men, its possible that those that show an aptitude for it are given more training. 

This is a huge crock. How can you be so ignorant as to generalize people like that? Guess what? Females will want to problem solve as much as males will emphasize. No goddamn way you actually posted that. And I am not getting further into this. Be ashamed, be very shamed.

Quote from: noir on September 15, 2009, 11:24:44 AM
This is a huge crock. How can you be so ignorant as to generalize people like that? Guess what? Females will want to problem solve as much as males will emphasize. No goddamn way you actually posted that. And I am not getting further into this. Be ashamed, be very shamed.

I'm not sure to whom you are replying but perhaps you may have not heard of  Baron-Cohen's theory, which states that "the female brain is predominantly hard-wired for empathy, and that the male brain is predominantly hard-wired for understanding and building systems".  It's something he referred to as the empathising-systemising (E-S) theory.   Of course, it is just a theory.

I admire your disdain for ignorance.  I look forward to your carefully considered critique of the E-S theory with interest, as I don't necessarily agree with it either.

Didn't you just write out an apology because you were found to be too harsh and abrasive? clearly your apology was nothing but a way to get your foot back in the door, not an actual declaration of self-examination and regret.

Take a female born child and raise her exactly as society expect boys to be raised and let's see how "female" she acts.  Take a male born child and raise him exactly as society expects girls to be raised and let's see hoe "male" he acts.

There will always be an element of nature and one of nurture but you CAN alter a person's persona to cross socially acceptable gender lines if you raise them in an environment that condones that.  Male and female born persons who transition at puberty will act much differently than if they had transitioned at 50.

Julie

*Chuckles*
One problem of mine, I speak in superlatives and over generalizations, even when I don't entirely mean them.

This active listening skill is more of a nod, it is and ability to, don't know how to put it, talk back, but mostly be listening at the same time. I can't really describe it. And once again, I am very well that being womanly is the EXPERIENCE, so of course it's going to be hard for them pick it up automatically.

To mister: I apologized for being incredibly insulting, in one particular thread. If this is insulting to you I'm sorry.

The reason I am writing all this is I spend a few days with a woman (transgender) and she did not seem to exhibit this listening ability, and it seemed to make here very "rude", while this is not so. She was absolutely gorgeous, I did fall for her, but her conversation style was "off". I didn't care per se, but I am aware that she was OBSESSED with being seen as female, and while I did see her as female, this was something I noticed that was "off".

So I am righting this post mostly based off of a single person I met, although I have observed it in a few members of this site. Once again, not a criticism or judgement, but I think it may benefit someone in transition, because this to me at least is a VERY womanly trait, to be able to actively listen.

Please, I'm not trying to be offensive or abrasive, just giving observations.

As I'm not a transwoman, this isn't offensive to me.  What blows my mind, though, is how you think you can make sweeping generalizations that are pretty insulting and then say you're not making a judgment so no one should be offended.

Seems to me that the one with the communication problem here is you.

Yes, I do have communication issues, and I do admit that, especially on web forums, because I can't use body language, tone, and tact to get the point across. And once again, this isn't meant to say "YOUR ARE ALL MEN" but I do realize that....ugh I'm going to shut up.

Wasn't meant as a generalization, it was based off mostly one person I met, while it was observed in others here. But once again, it's hard to base something like that off the internet, because active listening is hard to judge based of text based communication.

Crap. Sorry. Just a THOUGHT.

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Post Merge: September 15, 2009, 12:39:47 PM

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And this is EXACTLY why I prefer to talk to people in PMs.

Quote from: Sammy on September 15, 2009, 01:18:55 PM

The reason I am writing all this is I spend a few days with a woman (transgender) and she did not seem to exhibit this listening ability, and it seemed to make here very "rude", while this is not so. She was absolutely gorgeous, I did fall for her, but her conversation style was "off". I didn't care per se, but I am aware that she was OBSESSED with being seen as female, and while I did see her as female, this was something I noticed that was "off".

Hi Sammy,
One thing to remember is that not all women - cis or trans, are polite empathizers with good communication skills. Being "rude" is often just that and not any indication of lack of female (or male) traits/skills.  Women are not these perfect creatures who are always sweet, always know the right things to say, when to listen, etc.

Quote from: Sammy on September 15, 2009, 03:49:11 AMmaybe I'm just being a jerk.

I'm going to go with that, but assume it isn't deliberate.

Try to remember we have things going on. We are in varying stages of transition, and darling it's a hell of a lot harder than it looks. We've got decades of conditioning to overcome, not to mention painful physical things and internal, chemical transitions taking place that are just, like, woah.

So yeah, please forgive me for not getting too emotionally involved when someone whines about not having a job, but doesn't get up and look for one. I/we have limited emotional resources to work with, because for the first time in most of our lives we are actually putting ourselves first.

I'd keep explaining what I mean, but I would just have to explain that. Then the next.

So for my own sanity, I'm just going to say I'm sorry and move on.

REALLY wasn't meant to be offensive or even say "do this". Just an observation.

Although it would be interesting to discuss the sociological components vs. the biological components of what make "male" and "female" behavior...

I don't think that your post was in the least offensive or that you have anything to apologise for - FWIW I think you're probably more or less right.
..... your problem here is probably that a lot of people aren't actually listening  :P  ;D 

Yeah, this I am going to say, and WILL NOT apologize for. People on this forum (as well as any form) don't really listen. They read, say "OMG stupid rude idiot" and don't try to figure out what is going on. That's why I hate forums, all rules of being considerate go out the window. My problem is, I'm trying to be considerate to EVERYONE on this damn website, and it never works.

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Post Merge: September 15, 2009, 09:15:57 PM

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Quote from: noir on September 15, 2009, 11:24:44 AM
This is a huge crock. How can you be so ignorant as to generalize people like that? Guess what? Females will want to problem solve as much as males will emphasize. No goddamn way you actually posted that. And I am not getting further into this. Be ashamed, be very shamed.

Women are GREAT problem solvers. Men are not great at empathy. Maybe a few, but they are few and far between. And believe me, I have tried to find them. For what it is worth, I am a bio-male (not MTF or FTM), and I know this...men are pricks. They want something by listening. Gay men, straight men. They can listen, but that is it. They can't understand. They either talk to damn much, or too damn little. Not nearly as good at active listening. Believe me, I'm trying to find one, because I know I'm in the right body, but I can't understand why my psychological being is pretty much entirely woman. Please prove me wrong, give me an example of a bio-male who is really actually very loving and WOMANLY.

Let the pissing contest begin!

OMG..... I didn't want to start any kind of dispute ..... you do ALL recognise that my glib reply post WAS very tongue in cheek, hence the smileys?

But to talk about the issue seriously......
First point first :-
Surely the accepted wisdom is correct, women - on average -  are more empathic and better listeners? 

Steffi, this wasn't you. I actually want to give you a big hug for understanding what I was trying to say. I'm just getting kind of pissy. Maybe I should just delete this thread???

Yes women on average are more empathic and better listeners, when they aren't depressed, traumatised, lonely, neglected, battered, desperate for medical care and totally alone in the world. Walk a mile in my shoes before you even start to judge me for being occasionally grouchy. Criticising a transexual by comparing them to the genetic members of their target sex is grossly irresponsible, because genetic girls just get to be girls, they are brought up with and are praised for the same traits we are being criticised for not being able to pick up overnight. Well, like I said before, we've got some things going on.

Quote from: Sammy on September 15, 2009, 09:54:20 PM
Maybe I should just delete this thread???

1 vote from me, just because it's not helping anyone that I can see.

Well..... you can delete the thread or not - for me, I don't care either way.

I would point out that I lived 50+ years in the male role and it has left me with some behavioural traits are damned hard to kick!   :-\ 

The thread could perhaps become constructive if we discussed why this is difficult for us to emulate.  It's just a reality of our unique circumstances IMO, just as the question of "tell or not tell" is or a discussion regarding Voice or Body Language.

I don't actually understand why it's such a prickly issue ....... but what the heck ...... if no-one is going to say anything that is somehow constructive then it's just a flame war trying to happen  :(

by the way

QuoteCriticising a transexual by comparing them to the genetic members of their target sex is grossly irresponsible

Yes indeed.....and as soon as the rest of the world realises that, all our lives will get a whole lot better   ;)   ;D ;D

Quote from: Steffi on September 15, 2009, 10:16:42 PM
The thread could perhaps become constructive if we discussed why this is difficult for us to emulate.

That's what I saw as the original point.

I don't know if empathy is difficult to emulate per se, or if eumlate is even the right word because the girls in us want to express themselves, it's just difficult to control "him" and remember not to start trying to fix stuff right away, not to feel compelled to take action. Just one of the many other things we do that takes time and patience...and support.

This WAS meant to be constructive. I had an observation, wanted input, thought maybe someone could benefit...pissing match ensued. What worried me is this is what led me to lose it a few nights ago...

I was taught asking questions was good. Forums are meant for questions that are siimple, like, "Does this make my shirt look good?" But this doesn't seem to be following the path I wanted it to...

God, I wish people would just chill out. I am a really nice guy, I swear :)

The fact that others may have an opinion that may be different than yours does not mean that they don't understand your point of view. It doesn't make either of you good or bad people. It just means that they have a different point of view and expressed their opinion.

Deleting the thread would only serve to make you look immature

Just a thought  :)

Here's a thought....

When I was a young man (Oh my lord...... how I HATE saying that.....) I was very sensitive and easily hurt.  I was also a great empathiser and a good listener - people used to pick ME to be the one they told stuff to and discussed stuff with and used to say "I can TALK to you..." and stuff!!!
...... sadly, Life has knocked most of that out of me ..... marrying into the family from hell, running a couple of tiny and struggling businesses with cranky people and just general Life crap, besides coping with my well-concealed GID.
I do so wish that I could instantly revert ..... be how I was, feel how I did, but it's REALLY hard.
When you've been in Guy World for years, even as a non-competer, it's really difficult to shake off certain parts of the role.   :(

But to get to what I was going to say....
How many of you used to police your behaviour when you were in Guy World...... feel the instinct to empathise etc and respond in a female way ..... and then have to KNOWINGLY crush it down and make an actual guy-style response because you were aware of the inappropriateness?
I hold my hand up to that straight away.......

And even though my T is now slightly below average female levels, I have recently learned that I do still have some very male aggression in here somewhere that almost jumped out recently to deal with a particularly irksome taunter   :(
That would not be good......

Thank you. I'm used to differences in opinion leading to a stern beating.

Whoever said words can't hurt you was never beat by their own mother for calling the "Prophet of God" a false prophet and a pedophile.

Quote from: Steffi on September 15, 2009, 10:40:41 PM
Here's a thought....

When I was a young man (Oh my lord...... how I HATE saying that.....) I was very sensitive and easily hurt.  I was also a great empathiser and a good listener - people used to pick ME to be the one they told stuff to and discussed stuff with and used to say "I can TALK to you..." and stuff!!!

Described me rather well also  :)

The source of my gender dysphoria primarily was that my emotions and sexuality matched that of women primarily. What makes things MORE confusing is that my body feels "right'. And what I mean is, women are much more emotionally based in my experienced. Not bad, IMO. Emotions are a better guide than logic, as long as the emotion is logical (I wouldn't trust a Vulcan). A woman's sexuality follows her heart, from oberservation, while a mans follows his "uh-huh". I have a motherly instinct, very loving of others, very emotional (not to say balling my eyes out), empathetic, etc. I haven't found ANY men that exhibits very many traits that I exhibit, but it seems very consistent with women. And believe me, once I find something that seems fairly concrete, I try to find an exception. (When I learn a stereotype, I prove it wrong. Almost always.) Women are very sacrificing in love, in my observation, while men have a higher tendency to take (once again observation. Please give me an exception). One thing I have noticed, women seem to have a higher tendency to LOVE cuddling, and it is very emotional, while men do it for some other reason (phsyical pleasure, to be protectors?). Never heard a man in my whole life (and believe me I've looked) that has said "You can have great cuddling without sex. But you can't have great sex without cuddling). An interest in mine is talking to the trans community to see if I can discover some consistent traits among women, because if it is a consistent biological female trait, MTF's should exhibit it.

Quote from: Sammy on September 15, 2009, 10:59:26 PM
...because if it is a consistent biological female trait, MTF's should exhibit it.

I think that's where you get yourself into trouble.  Stop thinking that.

keyword "should".

doesn't mean they will.

Hard to pick out socialized trait from biological trait, because as long as you've had humans, there has been a biological/sociological component to all behavior, so I'm beginning to think this is a faulty line of reasoning. But if there IS a purely biological trait, that is only biological, it should be exhibited SOMETIME in there life. What causes a "motherly" instinct in women? The depth of emotion? Socialization? The F2M perspective on this would be interesting.

Maybe only mtf with certain finger ratios would exhibit said traits, or those whose arms bend out at the elbows when at rest at their sides.

Quote from: Sammy on September 15, 2009, 03:49:11 AM
Once again, not meant to be offensive

but this endeavour is the psychological equivalent of that quackery.

People have always described me as empathetic. I like working to resolutions in conversations when conflicts arise. I don't know what the point of sex without cuddling is; I see sex as basically a particularly intimate form of cuddling. I don't like competition. People have always (in my past) thought I was "off" in conversation, because I conversed like a girl and not like a guy. I'm sure I have some socialized male traits left over from my teen years when I learned to act more like a guy in order to have any friends and avoid getting beaten up.

Does this answer your question?

Yes.

Now for the confusion....why do i feel this way naturally if I'm SUPPOSED to be male, born male?

Oh, and Becca: Screw off. This is for MY understanding. I'm not writing a peer-reviewed scientific paper.

I will not.

Things like this border on hate speech, meant that way or not. How is the person who is just wondering about their gender identity going to feel when she reads this and sees, oh, it's hard for me to empathise so I must really be a boy after all?

This HAS been researched and peer reviewed, and thought processes like it resulted in us having to lie to our therapists to get treatment. This is out and out quackery at best, and I will not stop pointing that out.

Your fine Sammy. You said nothing that my speech instructor hadn't said.

 

Quote from: Sammy on September 16, 2009, 12:01:48 AMNow for the confusion....why do i feel this way naturally if I'm SUPPOSED to be male, born male?

YMMV.

Quote from: Sammy on September 16, 2009, 12:01:48 AMOh, and Becca: Screw off. This is for MY understanding. I'm not writing a peer-reviewed scientific paper.

What Heather said.

Hey girls.....don't squabble - we've got enough of the world against us without bickering amongst ourselves.

It is difficult to discuss subjects like this because they are close to our hearts and our sensitivities, but so are a lot of other aspects of our circumstances.
How are we ever going to unravel the conundrums within ourselves if we don't ask the question and discuss, POLITELY sharing viewpoints and input?
Jeez..... if we can't understand and tolerate one another, WTF chance does the outside world have?
.....if anyone finds the thread too hurtful, then just don't read it.

For myself, I am certain that I was born with a stereotypically female mindset that has been overlaid and deeply buried by my subsequent and apparently quite convincing portrayal of the male role.

I have some more thoughts on this general subject (female empathy/good listening) but no time just now - back later, assuming that the thread doesn't get locked!

Play nice, people   :)

It is VERY difficult to convey in print that which you can easily convey in person.  There is no inflection of the voice, no ability to immediately read the face of someone who might be taking what you said wrong, no way of knowing if what you are trying to convey is taken the way you intended until after it is posted.

We all need to remember this when we read something that offends us.  May I suggest you ask for further explanation before you let a comment get to you?

Julie

I thought I understood, and agreed with what Sammy was saying in the original thread.  Then I had second thoughts when reading the offense taken by some of the responders.  So I looked out on the web and there is a plethora of info on exactly this subject.  I thought I would post one from a site of a consultant in the "cultural diversity" business who is a "noted" key note speaker on the issue, and who gives permission for the use,

"Examples of Typical Differences in Male and Female Styles of Communication

Women are more likely to talk to other women when they have a problem or need to make a decision. Men keep their problems to themselves and don't see the point in sharing personal issues.

Women are more relationship oriented, and look for commonalities and ways to connect with other women. Men tend to relate to other men on a one-up, one-down basis. Status and dominance is important.

Women focus on building rapport, by sharing experiences and asking questions.
Men like to tell and give information rather than ask questions. They share experiences as a way of being one-up.

If women have a disagreement with each other it affects all aspects of their relationship.
Men can have a disagreement, move on to another subject and go get a drink together.

Women get things done at work by building relationships. Men build relationships while they are working on tasks with each other.

At meetings women nod their head to show they are listening. Men think the woman is agreeing with them. He then assumes the women will go along with his idea. He is surprised when she later disagrees, since she nodded her head. She has no idea why he thought she agreed with him since he never asked her.

At meetings, men only nod their heads when they agree. If a women is speaking and she doesn't see his head nod as he listens, she assumes he either disagrees or is not listening.

Too often men and women see the differences between each other and make each other wrong, rather than appreciating how they can benefit from those differences.
Simma Lieberman with Simma Lieberman Associates.

This is now me- She points out that Not all men are one way and women another, but that there is a marked, identifiable tendency that way.  Perhaps I might suggest that knowing these difference and training yourself to present in a more typical female pattern might remove one more "tell" from your presentation?  Gee, isn't that exactly what Sammy said?   I know that for myself, I can use all the help I can get!

@ Cindy Stevens
- thank you so much for making a sensible and informative post in this thread :) 

These were the two points that I myself was going to make, once I found the time and the words

QuoteWomen are more likely to talk to other women when they have a problem or need to make a decision. Men keep their problems to themselves and don't see the point in sharing personal issues.

Women are more relationship oriented, and look for commonalities and ways to connect with other women. Men tend to relate to other men on a one-up, one-down basis. Status and dominance is important.

sums it up far more concisely than I would have done   ;)
- I would re-stress that the points in "Examples of Typical Differences in Male and Female Styles of Communication" are not universal and absolute but are correct to a high percentage.

So...... given that they are true, how do those of us not naturally inclined towards the female style learn it? What useful steps can we take?

Socialising with natal females has to be a good method - providing that they accept us AS female and behave in a relaxed and natural fashion and that we work to fit in to their ways and don't skew everything by injecting male-style into the conversation.

I would guess that hardest part has to be taking the female style and carrying it through  into a male social environment ? - if one has lived as male for years and learned "how to play their game" then it is all to easy to slip back into that style.   :-\

A further complication is that the behaviour of both sexes changes when there is a member of the opposite sex there, particularly with men - when the female is of a screwable age they really play up.

Empathy is an important overall factor - but how can a person who is not inclined to empathy learn it?  Can it BE learned?

I see what Sammy's getting at.  When women talk, often all they want is to have their feelings validated.  Men, on the other hand, often want to offer solutions to the problem.  It's one of those things that causes fights among couples all the time. 

Sorry if someone else already said that.  I haven't read the whole topic.

Quote from: Steffi on September 16, 2009, 10:40:13 AM
For myself, I am certain that I was born with a stereotypically female mindset that has been overlaid and deeply buried by my subsequent and apparently quite convincing portrayal of the male role.

Me too.  And I think Sammy's original point is good - that there is some difference generally between the way men and women talk, and that MtFs don't always fit into that general pattern.

As others have said, I used to be empathetic but became socialized male to survive as one.  I am learning to let that old nature of mine come back (along with a lot of other old natures of mine :)). 

I remember having a long conversation with a GG friend a couple of months ago and thinking to myself afterward how much I absolutely LOVE Womanspeak - the interweaving of several conversations together into one, with digressions seeking connection but returning to the task at hand.  To me, Womanspeak, when really good, is far richer and convoluted and textured than Manspeak.  I feel privileged to be able to participate in it.

But most of the time, it is just a little bit of connecting and little bit of problem solving and have a nice day, I'll see you later when we can really talk. :D

- Kate

that there is some difference generally between the way men and women talk, and that MtFs lots of people don't always fit into that general pattern.

FIFY

I'm not sure that its the 'way' men and women talk as much as its the topography of the conversation itself.  If, as has been noted many times, but mostly in Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus, men will tend to 'solve' a problem, women are more content (seemingly) to just discuss it.

And, I'm not sure that is a gender deal, but more of a social one.  Men - or at least that world of work man thing - tends to be result orientated, and the nature of any conversation is to give information and to get information.  Men tend to 'solve the problem' because most of all the stuff that's ever asked of them is goal orientated, fact driven, i.e. there is a solution.

A woman's conversation (and men do have them, in large part academic/scholarly stuff is the man way of having that kind of talk) seems not as focused on getting or giving information, but more really like posting it. 

So when a 'guy' tries to 'fix the problem' he's doing what is pretty much the uber guy deal, Find the problem, fix the problem.  Most of men's socializing is constant reinforcement to that basic notion.  The Boy Scouts, Sports, School - find the problem, fix the problem - all reward the same base behavior, which is fixing problems.  So of course the guy - him somehow caring about this in some way - is going to do the real guy deal and step up for you and solve it.

That Woman's Speak is a lot like academic speak I think.  We're going to outline what the deal is, spend a long time talking in detail about the deal going down, all somehow commiserate around it - but we're not going to solve it.  (In academics the point, in the end, is always moot, so there is no solution.)  Or, (and this may well be true also) women don't actually care enough about the problem at that level (or see it differently) to bother to solve it.

It's like if we had old Sally in our circle of galpals - like Sex in the City or something.  And Sally is always having trouble with her BF, Ramone.  And Sally has always been having trouble with Ramone.  It's impossible to think anymore of Sally as someone other than the person who is having troubles with Ramone.  It seems like Sally has been having trouble with Ramone before she even met him (which is true in a way).  Now we never try to solve the Ramone issue - though kick him to the curb is the obvious choice.  Everyone accepts that Sally will be having issues with Ramone, but its not life and death.  Hell, skip it, come back next week, still more of the same.

The purpose (or reason if you will) for Sally to be in the group is because talking about her and Ramone is talking about all relationships.  Its the group shorthand to dealing with relationships.  There is no solution to the Sally thing specifically, because Sally's problems with Ramone are dealt with at far more of an abstract level.

I think women are very good at solving problems, otherwise they'd never be able to live without a man.  (And I know plenty of women who can live without a man, thank you very much.)  I think it is just the focus of the conversation that is different.  Two men standing, talking, will rarely face each other; two women will.  They've even videoed pre-school kids behaving this way.  The style of the conversation reflects that.

As for Sally, I don't know how many threads I've seen on this forum where someone will be agonizing about something.  Someone will suggest a solution.  The original person will latch onto some part of the reply that is irrelevant.  Someone else will suggest the same solution.  And so it goes.  When the problem is with ourselves we often are not ready to hear a solution.  (I, of course, am never guilty of this behavior. ::))  [That's sarcasm, in case anyone missed it.]

And, Tekla, I heartily agreee with your first statment in the last post: Many people don't fit into these patterns.  I would add that not everyone who does fit into the pattern fits into it all the time.

Isn't the variety of life fun? :D

- Kate

Quote from: tekla on September 19, 2009, 08:52:06 AM
And, I'm not sure that is a gender deal, but more of a social one.

Exactly, I could not agree more. Thank you.

Social conditioning starts from day one or before, and is so powerful that it's perfectly understandable to mistake it for inborn. Where my panties get in a knot is when we start to evaluate one's femaleness based on commonly observed criteria, because it's not an easy thing to unlearn.

However, I'm sure we can agree that whatever it's origin, biological or social, unlearning male conversation programming is one of the most validating and rewarding aspects of transition.

Well, for sure there are women who have the solution for everything - just ask her.  And guys who can't do it save their life.

Quote from: Becca on September 19, 2009, 06:54:02 PM
Exactly, I could not agree more. Thank you.

Social conditioning starts from day one or before, and is so powerful that it's perfectly understandable to mistake it for inborn. Where my panties get in a knot is when we start to evaluate one's femaleness based on commonly observed criteria, because it's not an easy thing to unlearn.

However, I'm sure we can agree that whatever it's origin, biological or social, unlearning male conversation programming is one of the most validating and rewarding aspects of transition.

This.
I'd like to add though, that many TGs/TS seem to see gendered type behaviors as black and white absolutes. I think there's a great deal of exaggerating going on. Women are not always thoughtful and men aren't always thoughtless.

These last two posts, by Nero and Heather, make me think: What are we really trying to do here?  Are we trying to fool the world into thinking we are women or men even though our bodies were born differently?  Are we trying to convice ourselves that we are really the gender we want to be?

Or are we just trying to be ourselves, finally, after years of trying to be who society expected us to be?

I speak to my male friends more or less the same as I used to.  They speak to me more or less as they used to.  I speak to my GG friends as a woman.  They speak to me as they would another woman.  I love it and am finding it pretty easy once I relaxed and gave myself permission to do it.  I'm still discovering who I am, and perhaps my friends are still discovering who I am, too.  Through the years I've learned to speak with many people from different backgrounds.  I will speak a little differently with each but will still be the same person.  I'm just me, not a chameleon or someone behind a mask.

(Gawd, I'm cranky this morning. :P)

- Kate

Quote from: K8 on September 20, 2009, 07:23:22 AM
What are we really trying to do here?  Are we trying to fool the world into thinking we are women or men even though our bodies were born differently?  Are we trying to convice ourselves that we are really the gender we want to be?

Or are we just trying to be ourselves, finally, after years of trying to be who society expected us to be?

- Kate

What I see is as we try to blend in and be just like every other man or woman we run into obstacles/challenges they don't have.  We have been socialized in our birth gender but we try to fight the person we "became" before transitioning.  We don't 'automatically' act like GGs or GMs.  We have to think about it first.  At the same time we're checking to see if we succeed in our efforts.  GGs and GMs don't even think about it.

So our thoughts can be filled with things non-TGs never think about and that takes additional effort.  At some point I just got tired of trying and wondering and I just decided to be, just as I did before transitioning.  Sure, I have the voice thing going all the time but I'm even accepting that and not trying so hard.  What I do know, is it makes it a lot easier to get through the day.

If we go back to the life 'before', I think most of will find we never gave a second thought about throwing on some clothes and going out to the grocery store to how do they gender me, things like that.  That's what I'm working towards.  And that success will only be realized when it's resolved in the space between my ears.

Julie

Hmmm..... This topic has wandered through various areas, including whether the trait is inborn or learned and now whether or not to project that trait is somehow false. What does that matter?
If falseness is your big concern, then walk around in your male clothes exhibiting your male body language and voice with no makeup, tucking, breast or bum padding and just tell people that actually you are female!   ;)

To restate Sammy's original point with a couple of words bolded by me:-

QuoteThe listening skills exhibited by MTFs are characteristic more of "male" behavior than "female", which I would imagine might throw others off. This doesn't bother me really, the point is, I think in transitioning to a woman, it would be important to learn active listening skills exhibited by many females, so they seem more "natural"

The reality is that convincing presentation as female involves a lot of subtle nuances as well as the obvious things.
The first thing that a competent voice coach will tell you is that pitch is largely irrelevant as long as one adjusts resonance and stays above a certain critical frequency below which one will always be perceived as male - there are very many women with surprisingly deep voices but no-one would ever mistake them for male.
The difference is in the speech-pattern, inflection, intonation and word-choice, but it also includes several other areas including a greater focus on feelings rather than actions and a difference in the WAY women listen.
....... which was Sammy's original and I think quite valid point.    :)

Quote from: tekla on September 19, 2009, 08:52:06 AMIt's like if we had old Sally in our circle of galpals - like Sex in the City or something.  And Sally is always having trouble with her BF, Ramone.  And Sally has always been having trouble with Ramone.  It's impossible to think anymore of Sally as someone other than the person who is having troubles with Ramone.  It seems like Sally has been having trouble with Ramone before she even met him (which is true in a way).  Now we never try to solve the Ramone issue - though kick him to the curb is the obvious choice.  Everyone accepts that Sally will be having issues with Ramone, but its not life and death.  Hell, skip it, come back next week, still more of the same.

The purpose (or reason if you will) for Sally to be in the group is because talking about her and Ramone is talking about all relationships.  Its the group shorthand to dealing with relationships.  There is no solution to the Sally thing specifically, because Sally's problems with Ramone are dealt with at far more of an abstract level.

omg my (gg lesbian) roommate is exactly like that. I've known her for years through several of her relationships and it's always the same drama, same problems, same issues, day in and bloody day out. I learned long ago that there is no "fixing" it, because this IS the way she deals with these issues. The best thing I can do is listen and offer support and suggestions, which seems to be all she wants as she works these things out on her own. Sure it gets tiresome, but she doesn't need or want some "man" to come in and "fix it" for her.

There is social conditioning but there is also our natural way of being as Kate mentioned. I never gave a damn for the social conventions of how men are supposed to conversate, which is probably why people were always pegging me as gay. Little nuances perhaps, but once I began in earnest to let go of the old and just be my natural myself, it really wasn't something I had to intellectualize and ponder over endlessly. So I'm saying while a good deal of it might indeed be social conditioning, there is also a natural aspect to it and I think everyone is going to have that to one side of the spectrum or the other. Maybe it's just all in our definitions of what's male and female.

I'm sorry. :embarrassed:  I was tired and cranky.  Please ignore my previous post.

Julie is absolutely right - we obsess about all this because due to our socializaiton it doesn't come automatically.  When I can finally not think about it and just be a woman then I will feel like I've pretty much transitioned.  I have a long way to go even though I too often think that I don't.

And you are right, Steffi.  It is not just the pitch but the intonation and word-choice and resonance.  Yesterday I was chatting in the coffee shop with a GG friend when a college-age girl turned and gave me The Look.  She had heard my voice.  I'm not sure what exactly cued her, but I know that if I have a long conversation my pitch drops and much of the resonance returns as I relax.

And yes, I still think Sammy's original point was valid.

- The not quite so cranky Kate  :icon_neutral:

Hi--this is my first post on this site, recently joined.
Just to throw in this view [I'm a transitioning  m to f and I actually listened to your post]:
I deal with a wide cross section of people on a daily basis and honestly I don't see significant differences in listening skills across biological genders. One person replied to you saying "Research shows..." [that women are better listeners than men] but I see no sources given or what studies referenced.  People also think that women talk more than men, but a recent peer-reviewed study on this shows that the men in this survey on average actually said a few more words/day than the women. 
      I realize that this detail could seem to confirm your point. ['Exactly! They listen less because they talk more!'] But my actual point here is that gender stereotypes may be driving this. These play into our perceptions, in incredibl6y subtle ways. Our perceptions seem to be confirmed--but by selective, rather than scientific, recall of 'examples.'
admittedly I provided the above example of talking without a source--not having time to track it down, but it hardly matters for my point: to get some purchase on these kinds of issues, look at research in social psychology.  There are tons of studies on all sorts of things and they often run counter to what everyone 'knows' is the case

It's funny. . .I can listen quite well, and empathy has always come naturally to me.

But I have great difficulty in talking and contributing unless the conversation has a tangible focus (TV, video games, etc.) or concerns a person or idea about which I'm passionate. Essentially, I'm unable to maintain idle, unimportant chit-chat. You know, the kind of thing that makes up a large majority of social interactions and, most importantly, facilitates the creation of relationships with new people.  :(

In those instances,  I tend to attempt to pass the active role back by asking questions or making quick observational comments. Or I just smirk, giggle, or chuckle while hoping the other party recognizes my desire to flee and allows me to do so.

I never had this problem during my childhood until I reached junior high. . .

MissAshley ...... I could have almost written that same comment    :-\  It's tough going sometimes

demoiselle65 Yes, your comments about the unreliability of "the common wisdom" are very valid.
When you say that you deal with a wide cross-section of people though, are you talking about when they are focused on a specific goal/target?
I think that male and female conversational styles will necessarily converge if one is talking about something practical, like planning the layout of a new kitchen or similar.

Although Sammy's original point didn't specify the topic etc, I assumed that he was talking about more general chatter.

Like - (my own nutshell observation) - as soon as you start talking about feelings men switch off and only start paying attention again when there is something more tangible, something that they can "do"   ? ? ?