I was on the bus a couple of weeks ago and sat about halfway down. We pulled in to a stop and three women got on, two of whom sat down quite quickly and the last struggled slightly to lift and place her bags into a small raised luggage area at the front of the bus.
I wasn't really paying much attention to her, just absently looking in that direction when she made some small movement that caught my eye and zeroed my attention in on her.
I cannot for the life of me tell you exactly what it was she "did wrong"....... there was just something slightly odd about the way she placed her feet as she struggled with her raised bags that made me think "Hey-up..... is that a trans-girl?"
She's about 40 years old, 5-foot-six and perhaps a little stocky. Once she turned round to head for her seat I had the opportunity to see her face - it was very passable and had I not already been alerted, I probably wouldn't have noticed but since I had been and was now looking for tells, I could see that my first suspicion was right. She sat at the front of the bus, in the "side-on" seats.
Once I was looking, there were other tells, though none TOO pronounced - hands, feet..... and since she was chatting to the other women who had boarded at the same stop, I heard her voice - pretty good, but again, since my suspicions had already been aroused, I could tell.
There was no doubt left in my mind, she was trans.
Shortly afterwards, it was time for me to get off the bus and as I've said before I am quite easily read. As I was passing her, she looked up and our eyes met. I smiled and nodded very slightly and she smiled and nodded very slightly back......she knew I knew.
Since then I've seen her several times at the bus station or on the bus. I've never approached her for even casual everyday chat because I am too easily read and I don't want to draw attention to her via me and possibly Out her. The time may come when we are totally alone and I do have the opportunity to speak to her briefly - IF she wants to talk back, of course.
But there you have it..... I would not have given this girl a second glance had there not been that slight......something wrong ..... in the way she placed her feet to get the leverage to lift her bags high.
So....... it just shows you how important it can be to get *everything* right and how little it does actually take to make someoenes instincts prickle.....
Background:-
AFAIK, I am the only transitioning M2F an this town/area, but three or four years ago my ex did tell me that she had seen one working in a charity shop. I never saw her myself, but presume that this must be her
Quote from: Steffi on September 21, 2009, 12:11:48 AM
So....... it just shows you how important it can be to get *everything* right and how little it does actually take to make someoenes instincts prickle.....
Or, does it mean that you are never going to pass 100% so you might as well accept yourself as trans and get on with your life. ???
- Kate
Quote from: K8Or, does it mean that you are never going to pass 100% so you might as well accept yourself as trans and get on with your life. ???
Don't really know what it means Kate :-\ I think that's rather a bleak summary though, especially as there are many who do live in Stealth and even Deep Stealth (Jeez..... that must be a tough road....) It is obviously quite possible to do, if you're "good enough"/natural enough/whatever.
In "mitigation" the situation/movements this girl was making were very probably not moves she had an awful lot of practice with anyway - how often are your bags extra heavy and need lifting over an obstacle?
- There is also the factor of whether due to my own circumstances I am quite possibly a little more attuned/unconsciously observant or whatever. Dunno about that! :-\
Someone else posted - I think here on this site - about a recently deceased friend who had believed that she was Stealth in two places where she had homes, but that chatter since her demise had revealed that many knew or suspected her trans past.
We never know WHY people do read us and if they apparently haven't then we obviously can't go and ask them if they had in fact realised etc!
I do wonder about this a lot....... I walk down the street and despite my size etc 90%+ of people seem to pay me no attention - is that because they've seen me before several times and have got over the Gawp stage, because they've instantly read me and are simply not interested anyway, because they're consciously not gawping or because they've actually not read me? How can I ever know?
Nonetheless, although a somewhat negative subject (sorry people) - I thought it was worth making, if only to highlight the importance of body-language generally.
This is the only time that such an event has occurred to me, but on the other hand, there has never been an event when I thought a GG had moved in some slightly weird way and wondered briefly if she was trans.
Has no-one else ever had a similar event then?
I get the feeling that us transgender people are hyper aware of such things. The general shmo won't notice the same things we do.
I'm sorry, Steffi. I didn't mean to be negative. :(
I agree with Nicky - we are hyper-sensitive to these things. Just about everyone I meet treats me as a woman. Other than the people who I know are familiar with my past, there are a few I can tell they think I'm a woman. There are a few that I can tell they read me as previously male. Most people I can't tell how they read me. They don't look at me that closely and/or they treat everyone the same and/or they know I'm trans and know how to treat a trans-woman as a woman.
I know some people are able to live in stealth (or apparent stealth :P), but I figure I probably won't be able to. For me, I think stealth is an unrealistic goal for me. Therefore I am working on accepting myself as trans. Being trans is an unusal but perfectly natural human condition. I lived in hiding most of my life and don't want to do that anymore. For me, I want to try to maintain the mindset that I am a perfectly normal woman who happened to be born with a male body and tried to live as a man for much of her life. It is when I start thinking that I am passing 100% that I get whacked by a "sir" or "he". I don't like it. So my goal now is to completely accept myself as trans and not worry about it. I don't know if it will work. ::)
- Kate
can i offer my two sense worth...... most of the girls ive seen on here would pass as genetic on visual cues alone this includes steph...kate i am not sure because your picture is to small for my old eyes to get a good look at im still new to this whole thing so heres what usually gives trans away to me voice is #1 2. is facial shape rarely would body movement anounce a persons birth sex to me or any of my friends unless its so blantenly obvious. i think do to self esteam issues and worries of will i pass is what does us in.
because i myself am trans but do not dress in public at all yet i have been with guys that have seen trans women and all i here them say is wow thats an ugly chick when all she is is not passing yet.... most guys are not that well accustomed to seeing trans women so they dont make the conection. we see the girl for what she is because it is a reflection of what we are. my oppinion is all this is.
jessie
Doesn't mean she is trans, I know some very manly acting girls, some might even be quite manly looking.
There is a woman here with a deep voice, kinda manly behavior and manly cues, but apparently it's her huasband who is an ftm it seems while she is genetic :D
I think we are hyper-aware because we are transpeople and know a lot of transpeople. The average Joe does not. Prior to realizing my own trans-status, I would have told you I'd never met or seen a real live transperson. Reality is that I did, likely many times over, but didn't know it.
Jay
There are a couple woman i know that i swear are trans, tall, over 6', built like a linebacker, large hands and feet, some male mannerisms and kinda of a deep voice, but both are married and have either children or grown children, both are very helpful to me and friendly, the older woman even let me try her sandle on and it fit perfectly.
Paula
We study people a lot, trying to fit in, so we notice it more.
agrred leslie
she had probably just finished reading a post on the internet about how important body language is, and then over thought her own body language instead of just being herself. It's not about getting every little thing "right". It's about being yourself, however that is.
I've read a lot on line about body language, and I do consciously try to work on it (I have pretty poor posture) BUT I also watch GG's closely when I'm out and about and I see a LOT of them defy completely the "genetic girls do it thus and so" instructions.
Yeah, we are hyper-aware, and we also have "Transdar". I've read lots of trans women, but honestly sometimes I'm really not sure if I'm just being hyper-aware or if they are trans.
My ex-girlfriend (natal woman) is a good 2 inches taller than me and has a larger build too. (I'm 6ft tall btw.) She likes to dress pretty wild and wear wigs too. It was so strange to hear guys say "that's a dude!" and realize they were referring to her. She would then use her deepest, booming, voice to reply, "Yeah, I am a dude!" We would always get a good laugh about that.
Post Merge: September 25, 2009, 12:26:26 PM
Quote from: Leslie Ann on September 25, 2009, 02:24:59 AM
We study people a lot, trying to fit in, so we notice it more.
Totally!
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on September 25, 2009, 04:08:47 AM
It's not about getting every little thing "right". It's about being yourself, however that is.
Words of wisdom!
Quote from: Steffi on September 21, 2009, 12:11:48 AM
I was on the bus a couple of weeks ago and sat about halfway down. We pulled in to a stop and three women got on, two of whom sat down quite quickly and the last struggled slightly to lift and place her bags into a small raised luggage area at the front of the bus.
I wasn't really paying much attention to her, just absently looking in that direction when she made some small movement that caught my eye and zeroed my attention in on her.
I cannot for the life of me tell you exactly what it was she "did wrong"....... there was just something slightly odd about the way she placed her feet as she struggled with her raised bags that made me think "Hey-up..... is that a trans-girl?"
She's about 40 years old, 5-foot-six and perhaps a little stocky. Once she turned round to head for her seat I had the opportunity to see her face - it was very passable and had I not already been alerted, I probably wouldn't have noticed but since I had been and was now looking for tells, I could see that my first suspicion was right. She sat at the front of the bus, in the "side-on" seats.
Once I was looking, there were other tells, though none TOO pronounced - hands, feet..... and since she was chatting to the other women who had boarded at the same stop, I heard her voice - pretty good, but again, since my suspicions had already been aroused, I could tell.
There was no doubt left in my mind, she was trans.
Shortly afterwards, it was time for me to get off the bus and as I've said before I am quite easily read. As I was passing her, she looked up and our eyes met. I smiled and nodded very slightly and she smiled and nodded very slightly back......she knew I knew.
Since then I've seen her several times at the bus station or on the bus. I've never approached her for even casual everyday chat because I am too easily read and I don't want to draw attention to her via me and possibly Out her. The time may come when we are totally alone and I do have the opportunity to speak to her briefly - IF she wants to talk back, of course.
But there you have it..... I would not have given this girl a second glance had there not been that slight......something wrong ..... in the way she placed her feet to get the leverage to lift her bags high.
So....... it just shows you how important it can be to get *everything* right and how little it does actually take to make someoenes instincts prickle.....
Actually it doesn't show that at all, because you don't actually know for sure she was trans.
What if you're wrong? All it would show then is that when you're trans, you might start looking for these things in other people and start seeing tell's that are in fact nothing more than natural variation.
I'm going to be honest and say something about your post comes off to me as kind of arrogant, I mean, you have decided that this woman is without a doubt 100% a trans, but how do you really know? Reading your post given that, for all we know, you could potentially be mistaken, comments like
"it was very passable and had I not already been alerted, I probably wouldn't have noticed" come off very judgmental.
But even if you're right, the vast majority of people, most all cisgendered people, do not even think to look for these tell's, and the one's that do frequently mistake cisgendered people as trans. My point is that I don't think there's any magic body language that dictates if someone is born female or not that you can trust with 100% clarity. And your comments come off to me as arrogant if you assume that there was any possibility that she was born female, which until she outright state's she isn't, I see no reason to believe is out of the question.
For all I know you may be right, maybe she was trans, I just don't like that you have decided it as a 100% certainty with no actual proof and then used it to make a point.
Quote from: asfsd4214 on October 11, 2009, 06:30:46 AM
What if you're wrong? All it would show then is that when you're trans, you might start looking for these things in other people and start seeing tell's that are in fact nothing more than natural variation.
Yes! I would never ask someone if they were trans even if i was totally sure!! The city I live in there does seem to be an astonishing number of TS woman (and probably men, i know a few, but they pass so easily), but I would never try to ask one of them unless it came up in conversation.
ALso i wouldn't be scared about talking to someone just because you felt you might out them, if you see someone regularly, then its perfectly normal (in my opinion) to say hello. You may even make a new friend :)
Quote from: Myself on September 23, 2009, 06:25:18 AM
Doesn't mean she is trans, I know some very manly acting girls, some might even be quite manly looking.
There is a woman here with a deep voice, kinda manly behavior and manly cues, but apparently it's her huasband who is an ftm it seems while she is genetic :D
I agree with Myself... (that sounds odd)
I dont think shes trans really.... Its the whole 'omfg i think i saw a trans person' paranoia.
You know the smile and slight nod thing is a greeting in passing women use sometimes with eachother? The number of other girls i just smile to without knowing .... its common, the 'tells' were things you spotted when looking for them... some could be false positives. Not everyone's perfect. Plenty of people have features of both, or reasons thier posture is x or y, or why they stand a certain way. Some women have big hands!
Hell my friend in dorms in freshman year had size 9 feet... normal girl.... Allsorts of things happen and apear and you think you see... i had a phase like that, when I was starting.
I used to do that too at the start of my transition. Lord, if I counted all the persons that I erroneously labeled as trans, I'd form a small country! Imo just because somebody moves a certain way doesn't make them trans, and I sort of find that notion somewhat offensive also.. We're all different. We come in diverse shapes, forms & sizes.
One of my friends is 170cm tall, bigger hands than mine.. and not by little it seems and she is shoe size 42 EU which I think is about 10 US?
Trust me she isn't a trans.
She is 19 years old too.
Both my cosmeticians at hair removal centers were big women which could probably wrap their hands around mine like men can, they are not trans.
My cousin's friend is a girl with a behaviour you could maybe think that.. she is 17 and not a trans.
Stop judging others so much, there is no strict line in between the genders behaviours and morphism.
My daughter is 5'8 with size 11 feet, fwiw.
Jay
I have been around this old word a long time, 24 years pre, 35 post and the vast majority of people are so wrapped up in their own little world that they don't bother trying to "read" others - that's a trans thing.
Cis-people know who and what they are and for the most part don't bother to try to act a certain way or move a certain way or use particular inflections. Whether 4'6" or 6'6", skinny as a rail or the size of a house, they know their gender, they know their sex, and they don't care what Joe Blow on the street thinks.
Now tran people seem to feel the need to pick everybody else apart, look for "tells" etc. and feel that if they mask the tells and act a certain way, follow a particular script, mime certain actions, they will "pass" as the opposite sex but they miss the essence and can be little more than actors because they don't have "the core identity".
For a girl/woman the core is built on KNOWING your a girl and you don't have to prove anything, oestrogen has already done "the wiring". Children, youth, and even adults socialize where they are comfortable and at ease and that is "among their own" - girls grow up learning from other girls, boys from boys, and that socializing and learning shapes one's personality around that core identity.
"Normal people" don't go around thinking how they should move, how they should talk, etc. - it just all comes naturally - and it is the overall impression that other (non-trans) people "read" subconsciously and in an instant. Anything that seems scripted or forced stands out like a flashing beacon and may attract greater scrutiny.
For someone changing their social sex, the more of your previous mind-set that you retain, the less you will "pass" because that comes through all the time. If you want to BE a woman, forget everything you know or thought you knew and immerse yourself in the world of women, become a child again, change "the core" and rebuild on the new core.
Quote from: sneakersjay on October 18, 2009, 06:27:03 AMMy daughter is 5'8 with size 11 feet, fwiw.
DAADDY
Quote from: Northern Jane on October 18, 2009, 06:57:30 AM...the vast majority of people are so wrapped up in their own little world
that they don't bother trying to "read" others - that's a trans thing.
This, yes very much so, this!
Quote from: Myself on October 18, 2009, 05:56:44 AM
One of my friends is 170cm tall, bigger hands than mine.. and not by little it seems and she is shoe size 42 EU which I think is about 10 US?
my favourite sandals are size 42 EU I think it's more like a 10.5/11 ;)
Several years ago, I was on a BART rapid transit train and was sitting in the rear facing seat. I saw a late twenties looking blond haired gal come in and sit facing me about half the car back. She was dressed in tight fitting jeans, a pink camisole and white running shoes. Her features were ever so slightly mannish as was her mannerisms but not so much that anyone noticed but me.
Now, she may or may not have been trans but for me she was and at the time, I was still fighting transition. I was dressed in male looking women's clothes and sported a long pony tail. I looked more outrageous than the woman ever did. It was my delusion at the time that I could dress this way and still pass as a male. Sure, a flaming gay one, but I didn't realize that. I was getting some very odd looks from people.
I sat there staring at this woman while she read a book. She never noticed me but as I watched an idea came to me that I could look like her. I realized that I wanted to live my life like she was, as a woman. She was clearly comfortable in her appearance and actually was attractive. It was a turning point for me, as I never could bring myself to deal with being trans. No therapy no doctor but I was doing DIY HRT. I had one foot in and one out. The next day, I told my wife that I am a woman and was going to live as one.
All hell broke loose but several years later, I still think about that woman who was the spark who flipped me over. I'll never know her name but I am grateful.
Maggie
Quote from: Northern Jane on October 18, 2009, 06:57:30 AM
Now tran people seem to feel the need to pick everybody else apart, look for "tells" etc.
For someone changing their social sex, the more of your previous mind-set that you retain, the less you will "pass" because that comes through all the time. If you want to BE a woman, forget everything you know or thought you knew and immerse yourself in the world of women, become a child again, change "the core" and rebuild on the new core.
First paragraph (edited); its not just Trans people that pick people apart - it's quite a common trait in people, I don't think we should make this out as a character fault of trans people.
I like the second paragraph as it's so true. Everybody pays more attention to someone who appears nervous or scared. Certainly hard to contain those nerves for most in the early days of being who you are in the bright glare of the world.
Since I associate with the lesbian community and am married to a wonderful woman; I see all sides of woman in the community I belong to. There is many generalisations of what it means to be a woman but the truth is being yourself is the element that will always shine through.